"I was talking about the effect on the *children* not the mother--are you saying the children are snobs and should put up with the loss of their home, their school, their friends and do without decent food and clothes? This is the too common male confusion of the welfare of the children with the ‘selfishness’ of the mother." Aziliz

Nice try, to turn the arguement back on itself!

The resulting fall in living standard is based on the decisions made by the mother, and if you are really concerned about the welfare of the children and their subsequent fall in living standards, then why separate? or better still leave the children with the father.

The CSA figures on child support payments cover all children. Children of teenage mothers etc. It is more than likely that if one looks across the board the vast majority of child support cases involve people on the lower end of the economic scale, unemployed, low income earners. 67% of the population earns less than the average weekly earnings.

The two major factors in male suicide are finances and relationship breakup. If you think that it is not statistically significant I suggest you go Dads in Distress website.

Divorced, separated men have a lower life expectancy than married men.

Comments that male suicide is not linked (at least partly) to family separation fly in the face of Australian research and expert opinion, i.e. Prof Baume (former director of the Instutute of Suicide Research and Prevention, Mt Gravatt Uni), Prof John McDonald (UWS Prof of Primary Health Care). Most importantly these comments ignore what a host of divorced and suicidal men are saying.

Research by the Central Coast Health Promotion Unit (1999) factored the CSA very clearly as an organisation that is detrimental to men in crisis. This research was based on a community supported phone-in of suicidal men, partners etc… In other words it asked those affected to talk about the causes.

3 of the 5 daily male suicides are linked to family separation (1998 Baume and others)
- at least 70% suicides are associated with relationship break-ups
- men are 9 times more likely to suicides following break-up than women.

In 2003 Larry Anthony ordered an inquiry into the CSA cover-up of suicide figures. For years concerned groups have demanded that the CSA release figures on their clients who have committed suicide. The CSA continues to use the defence that they do not collect such figures. This is hardly adequate exercise of their duty of care! Is there any other government body that has been accused of having so many client deaths and has refused to collate the true figures?"

I state again, after years of lobbying, the government assigned 42 Million dollars to a National Suicide Prevention Strategy. A large portion of this went to the CSA, as Trevor Sutton informs me … to identify and support clients at risk of self harm. Doesn't this acknowledge that there IS a suicide issue amongst CSA clients!

As they say … where there’s smoke … …

Aziliz, you go to pains to point out how little non custodial fathers pay as a means of dismissing the concerns of those who pay too much and then you point out

" that marriages to unemployed men are more likely to break up, nor that a higher proportion of alcoholics, drug addicts and mentally ill, etc are unemployed--so a proportion of the men were already unemployed. "

C$A figures don't look at the impact on children of being kept away from fathers to help mums income nor of the long term harm of large numbers of children being raised in homes where nobody goes out to work to earn the dollars.

Your views about residency going to the prime carer ignore the very real roles many fathers play in their kids lives for most of their non paid employment hours (every weekend and week night does not equal every second weekend).

You seem to focus on the worst cases for women and ignore the rest.

My ex did not move to a housing commission place in a dangerous suburb, rather a coastal setting minutes from the beach with two pools in the complex. She dropped from three days a week to one day a week work while we were doing almost equal shared care. We had an agreement to live near each other to minimise the impact of seperation on our son, she announced her intentions to move away within a week of me moving into the house I'd just bought. We signed consent orders about residency and schooling prior to the move (I had no basis to oppose the move if those were in place) and she began moves to get the concent orders changed within about a month of moving. I'd spent about $16,000 opposing those changes by the time I gave in to the demands to stop the harm to son and myself from the ongoing battle.

The current system does not work, it leaves the genuinely disadvantaged struggling and rewards the schemers and scammers.

R0bert

From the CSA web site

CSA values

Background

* We have a strong sense of the role CSA plays in delivering value to the community by our administration of the scheme.
* We meet community expectations.
* We have a strong sense of justice, honesty and integrity in all our dealings.
* We are accountable to the community for administering the law.
* We make a difference and exceed client expectations.

* We appreciate the issues that clients face: being in the shoes of the client.
* We anticipate client needs.
* We create an environment which is understanding, helpful, approachable, compassionate, sensitive, acknowledging and respectful.
* We develop supportive relationships, work together, have common goals and a common direction.
* We enjoy what we do and celebrate achievements.
* We foster an environment which values coaching; creating a culture where together everyone achieves more.
* We create 'one CSA' - an organisational oneness; we value complementary skills; create synergy.
* We create unity.
* We take care of the client - duty of care.

* We recognise that all clients deserve to be treated fairly and consistently — no matter who they are or where we serve them.
* We recognise that our people will be treated on the same basis.
* Our work practices will be transparent, overt, open, sensible and reasonable.
* We will have a strong sense of natural justice.
* We ensure that we listen and accept.
* We operate with integrity and are ethical in our behaviours.
* We are non-judgmental.
* We are impartial, objective, equitable, legal, balanced and flexible.


* We work smart.
* We act with ingenuity, knowledge, thinking and cleverness.

* We have a strong sense of dedication, perseverance and belief.


* We are organised.

* We know our jobs.

I posted the CSA Values from their own web site. Its been cut down because its very long. But you will be excused for chucking up after you read it.
Cheryl King

Not even ADF can claim efficiencies such as those achieved by CSA. Instead of debating the merits of recruiting women for front line combat duty to promote democracy around the world, why not just plant feminism and franchise local branches of CSA?