I find many Australians drastically hypocritical on this issue.

Apparently, we are told by punters and pollies alike, that 'democracy, freedom of specch, liberty are part of our core values'.

The same group crying foul over 'those muslims' who don't adhere to thse values will happily elect a govt. that has curtailed our civil liberties, consolidated media ownership, passed anti-democratic voting laws and made a mockery of our Parliamentary system.

I believe it is this govt. that has the most contempt for these Aussie values.

When heard this latest populist tripe from the Gov I wondered if he was going to call for Latin mass to be band?

Syed,

I am an Australian Muslim and honestly believe everyone who comes to Australia must be able to speak and communicate in English.

There are lots of Asian migrants who speak and communicate only in their own language.

Australia needs an immigrant adaptation program.

>>Multicultural Australia is only about 40-years-old: the process of integration and assimilation is still in progress.<<

That being said - Muslems are not going to assimilate because their culture is Islam. They can learn the language, and that's very well and important - but to assimilate they won't.

Islam wants Australians to assimilate to their culture - i.e. stop drinking, cover up our naked bodies, censure our speeches, don't say the truth if it is offensive to them, etc,...etc...

The Islamic “system” is a closed and complex one. It cannot be dismantled. Religion is their way of life.

Democracy and freedoms are not part of the Islamic Values.

So how can they ever integrate unless they renounce their religion and become secular like the rest of us?

Their allegiance to the Islamic Nation (Ummah) is primary to any other country were they may now live.

I don’t see Islamic integration happening tomorrow or in the future – so stop pretending that they will assimilate by learning the colours of our flags and the name of our PM.

I think the assumption that blaming muslims as a vote getter is probably a safe one to make - although it is getting to the point where much more may be counter productive - that is why Howard's delivery is so measured.

He lets his attack dogs like Abbott and Costello and even Alan Jones deliver the more vindictive lines - and then Johnny says things like - "well its a free country and they are entitled to their views -its one of the values we are fighting these pesky islamist for you see"!

But the other string to that bow - and I dont apologise for banging on about it - is that it puts a face to those Johnny has elected to be our enemy - in a perverse sense it unites some of us

- it also justifies the mistake of the Iraq war and the over reaction to the collpase of the twin towers and the joke that is Afghanistan.

It may back fire either at the ballot box. - we live in hope.

Or it may foster a genuine war - when Johnny et al can deliver the fateful "I told you so".

Cunning

John Howard has to take some of the blame for this Muslim overreaction, although he did say ‘some’ Muslims, and both he and Robb were directly addressing Muslim gatherings at the time of the initial ‘shock/horror’ announcement. They should be talking about some ‘immigrants’, not Muslims. Whether or not people can speak English has nothing to do with religion. There are many people who have immigrated to Australia, lived here most of their lives, from all ethnicities, who have not bothered to learn English. And their refusal to learn English has nothing to do with their religion. These people could be Catholics, Jews, Taoists, any other religion going, or no religion at all. It happens in all immigrant-taking countries.

The problem is that Muslims seem to identify more with their religion than with race, nationality or country than do most other people. They, then, must also take part of the blame for John Howard referring to ‘Muslims’ rather than Arabs, Asians, Africans or whatever nationality immigrants derive from. The Prime Minister, often lazy and imprecise with language, has fallen into the trap of going along with the Muslim obsession of religion first, which is definitely not part of Australian ‘values’ or psyche. There is really no excuse for the leader of a country to acquiesce to something ‘un-Australian’ – allowing religion to be anything but a private matter, not impacting on our laws, mores and culture – then saying that people must conform when it suits him. On the one hand, he is setting them apart by referring to their religion (unlike other non-Muslim migrants), on the other he is saying but, you have to be like everyone else. Confusing.

I make no bones about the fact that I am dead-set against Islam. But I cannot see why people who happen to be Muslims would not want to learn English as much as anyone else, in their own interests if for no other reason

Leigh,

Thank you for declaring your hostile position with honesty. I support some of your arguments although for some politicians and media reps to single out Muslims is an intellectual dishonesty.

In a decade of living in Australia, I have seen asians who can speak only their language and associate with their religion more than Muslims (take Australian Hindus for example). Australian Jews associate with their religion and rarely marry or date outside their religion for example.
It appears some politicians can't survive without creating an enemy whether its real or fiction. You can't scare people of two things and Muslims are the chosen ones to be the boogy man.

Peace,

One would hope that the requirements for citizenship, namely speaking and reading English will enable the females of all religions and ethnicities an opportunity to feel as though they are part of the new community they are joining, not isolated outcasts. It seems to me that all violence done in the name of religion is a male oriented condition. Their womenfolk are not permitted a voice, and as women are half (or thereabouts) of the population, there is a fair chance that if these women were allowed an education and therefore a voice they would have an equal ability to influence their children's attitudes which in turn could hopefully be the beginning of a better sense of understanding, acceptance and moderation in terms of their assimilation into the Australian community (or any other country that they re-locate to).

Why do journalists,and others consider Australia a Multicultural country.
They obviously have not travelled more than six miles from the Sydney or Melbourne GPO.
Australia is a very mono cultural country,travelling around the country(Bush.) English is spoken everywhere.Signage is only in English,or should I say Australian.
Steve Irwin,Brocky,only speak English.Unlike Canadians,Swiss,Lebanese,Indian,Parkistani's who usally speak fluently in two, three or four languages,and worship different religions they are what I might consider Multicultural counties.
Eating Chinese or Indian food does not turn the population into a Multicultural society.
I like spaggetti,does that mean I have become Italian or Multicultural.
Go to any Pub on Saturday night throughout this land and you will not hear any other language spoken but English,unless a party of overseas backpakers have camped in town that night.
Yes,most Australian's will accept someone who prays to other God's,but when a woman walks down the street in a total covering robe eyes will turn and this is what is happening six miles from the G. P. O.

And Brock your point here is??

Like dags on the arse of a sheep most of us are in capital cities clinging to the coastline - where there are huge populations of migrants 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation - then we go to the major rural centres whci also have big numbers of migrants and their desendants -Shepparton, Griffiths, Woolongong etc -

No one lives in the bush - it is empty

And yes people look at people in Burkhas - the same way I cant get over staring at all of people who wear that red and black stuff promoting the Holden dealer team - so what!

Coach - you say they're not going to integrate because their culture is islam...

Fine. I'm accusing you of non integration. Australia's a secular society right? so be secular already.

Don't like that?

Then your hypocrisy is complete.

Go out and meet some of the muslims you denigrate. Ask them if they're Australian.

To speak English is necessary if the migrant wants employment, there is no way he/she will get an Australian job without it.
There are many ways of assimilating and for a start, do ask for privileges that other people do not have. As in special swimming pool times or shopping times for one set of immigrants only.
This is asking for a form of apartheid and is discriminatory and should never be permitted in this country.
If people think they are singled out for critisism above others, maybe they should be asking why. What is it ,perhaps in their personalities, their customs, their demands whatever, there must be a reason why they are singled out. and maybe they could change bad attitudes that are attracting that critisism.
Perhaps if they just settled down to an ordinary life like ordinary people , they would do better.

"To speak English is necessary if the migrant wants employment, there is no way he/she will get an Australian job without it."

I wonder how many of the migrants that built to Snowy Hydro could speak english?

I note the London bombers were English and spoke english as their mother tongue

A percentage of the muslim population hold extremist views, about 3%. So 1 in 33.333 Australian muslims want an Islamic state. In other words, Australia has thousands of bloodthirsty Islamic extremists already.

I guess the case of the London bombers forces us to ask ourselves: do we really want these lunatics living amongst us? I heard (on the grapevine) that the plan was set the bombs off in the Subway under the Thames river, weaken the structures and drown thousands of people. Fortunately that plan failed. These are no ordinary street thugs. This is internationally backed terrorism, whose lifeblood is globalisation. Speaking English allows efficent communication, and breaks down barriers.

What the government should do is halve the immigration intake, so that each applicant is thoroughly scrutinised. The probabilty of administration error is halved. And the possibilty of an attack will cease.

So what if there are some crazy people who don't have English as their first language? As far as I understand, Martin Bryant, the Snowtown murderers, and Ivan Milat all were native English speakers... crazy is not confined to those who are "other".

I do not think speaking English should be a messure of worth I however do think understanding Australian ways and our right to them should be.
From within the Muslim world the answers to growing concerns generated by small numbers is to be found.
Constant outbusts like the one against the Catholic churchs head is unhelpfull.
I hope to hear the voice of this great relidgion raised to question these actions as often as such actions take place.

In years gone by the official language of diplomacy, what was known as Lingua Franca, or French, these days it seems to be English.

To not speak English these days it to be functionally illiterate in the broader world.

To not WANT to be able to speak English, in an English speaking country, to which someone decides to migrate or come as a refugee is simply silly.

Everyone should be encouraged to TRY and speak the language. If you can't do it because you are too old or simply have no flair for languages fine! I can understand trying and failing.

What I do NOT understand, is not trying, or worse still, calling someone a racist for suggesting that a requirement of citizenship should be an ability to speak the language of the country that a person has chosen to migrate to and settle in to at least a basic degree.

The point of difference, Laurie, is neither Martin Bryant or Ivan Milat or the Snowtown murderers were backed by international criminals. They are isolated cases and operate within limited capacity. They can only kill on a small scale. Islamists can literally kill thousands innocent civilians in a matter of minutes.

Learning English is a good indicator of how much people want to live here. People that want to live here are less likely to want to harm us.

Fellow_Human - The fact is that Australian Jews don't always associate with their religion and regularly marry or date outside their religion.

But that is not important here. If the Muslims do not eventually integrate well and accept our laid back way of life they will be the first group who haven't sucumbed to our lifestyle. Personally I think that they will, the problem is with a mad minority and that does worry us.

John Howard rather than doing anything is simply milking these concerns as hard as he can go. And he is therefore a part of the problem. He is not actually a good economic manager either it is all spin.

Rather than all this populist rubbish about English and Australian values, might it not be of value to point out very clearly to prospective immigrants that Australia does have a summer culture where people wear as few clothes as possible, that we are trying our hardest to implement sexual equality and that religious practices are generally low key as the majority are not religious.

Also we could point out that they must realise that their children will inevitably follow Austrlian values so they had better think hard about what there choice of where they live.

What ever happened to the word 'tolerance'. I think the author of the article should exercise 'tolerance'. The author should show a little patience with Mr Howard and his call for migrants to speak English.

What's that? We only use the word 'tolerance' to allow some migrants to indulge in their uplifting cultural practices like having their own 'members only' societies where knowledge of English is not needed? So sorry. Do carry on.

There are quite a few people in this country who don't speak English, or only speak a very basic version as their third or fourth language. Linguists classify their mother tongues as "Australian". Should they have to sit an English proficiency test as a condition of citizenship? See, they were born here, as were their parents and grandparents and ancestors going back, ooh I dunno, a few tens of thousands of years. Just asking. Trying to work out what "Australian" means.

Snout

You have of course hit the nail on the head.

WHAT....is driving the Australian Values/blame Muslims/Speak English debate ?

They are interwoven for a start.
Without question, just as there is a looming 'crisis of male identity' there is also a current crisis self understanding among many who would be termed 'traditional Aussies'... which would mean those most closely connected with the colonial history of this great land.
The union Jack is the symbol of that group. England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales. We still constitute the vast majority of Aussies Coday.(even when all the various migrant groups are added together.)

In Anthropological terms, we are experiencing 'Culture Shock' or..as Alvin Toffler put it more generally in the Western Setting "Future Shock". Things are happening faster than our psyche's are able to accomodate, we feel disorientated, confused about cultural and gender cues, self doubt emerges and left unchecked, this will inevitably manifest in a kind of 'lashing out' at whatever can be labeled "The Cause".

There are 2 sides to this question.

1/ The 'actual' causes.
2/ The 'perceived' causes.

These 2 might even be the same, and the only difference may be a matter of degree.

SOLUTIONS.

a) Studied adjustment.
b) 'Go native' embracing the new and rejecting the old.
c) Totally reject the new, and clingggg to the old.
d) Studied adjustment combined with remedial action.

Blaming Muslims (or 'migrants') is more of a populist reaction in terms of 'c'.

This does not alter the fact that there are real (rather than perceived) issues which need to be addressed.

9 Muslim terrrorism suspects in Sydney.
13 in Melbourne.
These are not 'culture shock', they are real. The chemicals being accumulated were specific to bomb making. The phone taps and Al Qaeda videos were not 'nothing'.
Blaming the whole community would be in error, but understanding the ideology and it's dangerous origins is a responsibility for us all.

Logic & Snout,

Good comments.

Boaz David,

I don't recall you and I agreeing on anything before but your last
comment is actually very good.

Cheers,

Not all monoculturalists are terrorists, but all terrorists are monoculturists.

Attempting to communicate with someone who has poor command of the English language can require bouts of intense concentration and is more often than not mentally exhausting.

Given my sensitivity to having to concentrate for a while and the general unpleasentness of using my brain, I absolutely condem any kind of communication that requires a bit more effort than normal.

We have enough to worry about in this country without being exposed to the risk of overhearing foreign tongue or having to repeat yourself at the Seven Eleven.

I for one intend to protect my fellow English speaking Australians from the traumatic experience of having to converse with a non-English speaking migrant.

Hells Angel,

"Islamists can literally kill thousands innocent civilians in a matter of minutes. "

I recall the record is still held by the west, with its democratic values and 'freedom'.

More than 100 000 lives taken in a few seconds, (WWII, Truman), and all part of a cynical experiment. Terrorism is still very much the domain of the state, and the state, compared to the small-scale terrorist, wins hands down every time.

regrds,

Derek

Your welcome F.H.

actually, I raised a discussion in the general section, about 'GEORGE W BUSH, MESSENGER OF GOD....which is of course tongue in cheek.

I compared his approach to that of Mohammed during the time of the campaign of Tabuk. I'd value your assessment of my understanding from a Muslim historical point of view. Nothing like a bit of flack to hone up the argument :)
By all means point out any flaws or weaknesses in what I present, and I'll dutifully consider it.

I continue to have a great friendship with my Iranian Muslim friend at gym. He has a son who is a good kickboxer. He told me the other day about this ooold lady he picked up (he drives a taxi) who told him 'Now..don't try to KISS me".... then, when he delivered her to her address, she invited him inside for a coffee.. and then SHE wanted to kiss him :)

You might want to distance urself from him though... he eats pork and drinks :) A very warm hearted and friendly guy. I'm hoping he is not using taxi driving as a cover for Iranian Intelligence ... never know these days. I'm hoping to invite him and family to my place for a meal as soon as I have 'a place' :)

cheers also and blessings to you.

strayan

It seems likely that you have never tried to learn another language yourself. If you don't make the effort to listen to those trying to speak English they will not get the practice anf how the bloody hell will they learn?

Hi Boaz,

I 'deliberately' took the bait and posted a comment. Please maintain intellectual honesty.
Good luck to you and your Iranian friend and wish him a happy Ramadan from me. Its fasting and meditation time.

PS: whats your obsession with the pork and alcohol anyway?
I thought alcohol is a main reason for accidents, domestic violence, etc..

Peace

It would be wrong to think anyone who has concerns about SOME of the Muslim faith is a red kneck or John Howard or even Bush fan.
I am no more likly to ever vote for them than I am the Greens, never ever.
Yet it is not the terrorists who concerm me, nothing I could ever say would turn them away from the path of hatred and murder they follow.
It is however those who cry racism each time some one is arested and discribed as Muslim!
How else can we think of them?
I and no follower of any God many who are involve themself far too much in the way others live but my concerns are a right I have in my country.

Not all monoculturalists are terrorists, but all terrorists are monoculturists.

I'm not sure of the post that said this, but you're spot on, although hopefully your not some conspiracy theorist nutter who believes that it is Howard and the like that are the monoculturalists.

If you are, I pity your ignorance.

It is a great number of Muslims who are violently monocultural, and I think it is fair to say that almost 99% passively support these views.

While, during South Africa's apartheid there were marches in all white nations, protesting that their governments not trade, play sport with, and so on, the offending nation, this behaviour towards Iran or Saudi Arabia isn't witnessed.

We all know how vile the Saudi regime are, with Muslim only roads, no immigration policy (or refugee), even their western workers on visa's must live behind compound walls so as to not offend the 'pure' Muslims.

It's outrageous.

Something really needs to be done, for when an entire civilisation, many empowered to think critically by the west, do nothing about the inherent bigotry within, we see non-Muslims being subjugated all across the Muslim world.

Christians are fleeing such nations in droves, their ancestral homelands. It's truly sickening.

What is happening in Darfur too, with Arab supremacists slaughtering blacks, even black Muslims, yet no statement from the Arab League condemning these actions.

Where are the moral Arab Muslim leaders?

The hypocrisy of what has been done "in the name of God" by the Christian religion is a disgrace.Wars beheading slavery the list goes on, how anyone can launch an attack at Muslims is beyond me, they should read the history of Christianity, the bible say's let he who is without sin cast the first stone.