If Hawaiilawyer really is a US citizen, then he/she speaks from the point of view of a country in which:

A brief glimpse on TV of part of Janet Jackson's breast, with the nipple covered, resulted in a massive fine for the TV station involved. [As if it was their fault it happened, and as it was such a big deal anyway.] And as a result of this, many other scheduled US TV shows, including some medical documentaries, had to be cut. Incidentally, this incident was shown on the 6pm TV news in Perth [without any publicised complaints] and any normal person would have to wonder what all the fuss was about.

There was criticism of the Athens Olympic opening ceremony on the grounds of alleged semi-nudity, which caused outrage in Greece that the narrow-minded US authorities couldn't just mind their own business.

A very highly regarded school arts teacher in Texas has just recently been sacked. She took her class to the Dallas Museum of Art on a school approved trip. 89 students went, each with explicit parental approval. The parent of just one student complained about that student seeing some classical nude statues and the teacher lost her job. This is just one of the many incidents in the US concerning stupidity about nudity in art.

The feminists are ridiculous when they claim that pornography always demeans women and that men are the sole consumers.

Both men and women take delight in erotica, although women prefer more story line so they can personalise it through their imagination. However at girls' nights at the local footy club the women are just as raunchy as men at a strip show and probably more insistent in propositioning the performers.

Men, gays and lesbians like their erotics more visual and more cut and dried so to speak. If anyone doubts that they can look at lesbian sites on the Net or mags in the sex shop.

I don't think anyone here is in favour of the way out and usually illegal stuff such as child pornography that is available on the Web.

Hawaii Lawyer should be aware that feminists tell a few wobblies* too (*that is Oz parlance for stretching the truth).

But what is the difference between erotica and pornography? Well a woman one said that any difference was only in the lighting.

I’d be content if I just make the point that prostitution isn’t hell in America and heaven in Australia. However regarding your questions:

““Not "claimed" to have been a lawyer, mjpb, this is true. What's wrong with you?”

I think it is a combination of reading those incredible flowery stories in the newspaper where supposedly the prostitutes are University students, reading some posts of people who think Australia is a prostitute Utopia, and not reading that particular post properly. In consequence I associated the fictitious prostitutes with the bar maid and was skeptical.

”And how can someone half know someone? You may not know them very well, but you either know them or not. And if you don't know them well, then you may not understand their motivation for doing anything.”

It is my way of saying I didn’t know them well and I may not that is correct. On the other hand I may.

To save you the trouble I’ll point out that I haven’t encountered all prostitutes in response to your number question. To answer your final question those I have encountered I have encountered through my work not theirs. I hope the latter point isn’t too disappointing.

More examples of the Australian ‘sex workers’ to show it isn’t a Utopia.

http://www.onlinecatholics.com.au/issue118/commessay4.php

Robert,

You accuse HL of "continuing to insist ...". Skimming through the relevant comment I noticed from HL was that social scientists should make the determination. Are you saying that in response to a comment that he made since your original comment?

mjpb, whilst HL might have made the comment the rest of HL's posts suggest that HL has already made the determination.

I admit to having trouble working out the boundaries between HL's own comments and quotes so I might have the context wrong but HL says in the same post

"That pornography does violence to those depicted is a reality. That a majority of Australians are for pornography does not change the harm. It just says that a majority of Australians don't mind the harm committed."

No consideration for the possibility that the majority of Australians don't support pornography which does genuine harm to those portrayed. Rather what appears the view that because HL or someone that HL agrees with with thinks that pornograpy does harm then Australians don't care about the harm.

perhaps HL's comment would have been better put

"That some pornography does violence to those depicted is a reality. That a majority of Australians are for pornography does not indicate that they support that harm. It just says that a majority of Australians don't accept that erotica and non violent pornography does actual harm to those depicted."

Almost any field of human interest can be shown to do harm in it's extremes, that does not mean that those who participate in or support the right of others to participate in the non-extreme incarnations of those interests are indifferent to the harm done by the extreme forms. Nor does it mean that all cases should be judged by the extremes.

R0bert

Frankly, I'm more interested in real facts. The nature, scope, etc. of harm caused by the creation and dissemination of pornography. What are the facts? Name the names of those who have been harmed, those who have not, the injuries, the lack of injuries, trace the harm to those who have been exposed to pornography injudiciously, etc.

Why speak of no harm, or the center and margins of pornography, if no systematic facts have been found, no harm or lack thereof thoroughly investigated?

If I were a consumer of a product, I would like to know if the process of producing that product harms anyone, or the selling of it does so, or the unsolicited exposure of it does. Why? Frankly, it's because I care about other people, and want to know how my actions, such as the purchase of a product, might cause them harm.

That's my personal point of view.

Thanks to all of you for allowing me to participate in your discussion