I’m not sure how work opportunities can be created in the middle of deserts where only aborigines live. So, given skill shortages and the unforgivable quick-fix tactics of a government unwilling to train Australians (bringing in foreigners and allowing employers to rort the special visa system), why can’t aborigines move to locations where training and jobs can be supplied? After all, most aboriginal Australians live in urban areas, and most of them seem to work and live independently without sitting on their bums waiting for handouts.

This ‘indigenous demands for self-determination’ is pathetic. Urban aborigines have brought about their own self-determination. Living out in the middle of nowhere just because your ancestors did is a cop out in the 21st Century. And no, little left leprechauns, I do not blame the aborigines for trying to live in the Stone Age, but with the benefits of civilization. I blame white fellahs like Nugget Coombes, Gough Whitlam and sundry other left ideologues.

Further on in his piece, the author does mention real self-determination – people moving themselves out instead of listening to do-gooding drivel.

Three cheers for self-determination for aborigines. When are they going to throw off the yoke put on them by patronising politicians and get on with it

I thought that 'money and self determination' were the causes of ghettoes like Wadeye and other dysfunctional communities.
Perhaps the question is,"Can a modern, progressive nation afford to have a population living in a primitive,uneducated community where male sexual and physical abuse of women and children is the norm?"
Not to mention that in such communities the chances of employment/ careers are very slim .
All Australians should be given the same advantages, responsibilies and hopes for a future.
That is the only answer.

Speak to any nurse in a remote community and you'll find that Aboriginal people are about the most prodded and tested people in the counrty. I'm sure this would be confirmed by anyone who bothered to check statistics for the number of visits to the clinic/doctor per head of population relative to ethnic origin (perhaps statistics like this would be too politically incorrect to keep?). Remote nurses I've spoken to have been exacerbated by the over servicing that goes on.

The constant blaming of everyone except Aboriginals is another well versed form of paternalism. Self-determination means being able to accept responsibility for shortcomings, learning from them, and working to fix the problem. Blaming everyone else just signals an inabilty to take responsibility for their actions.

Leigh,
Good on ya mate, now at least you are talking about a subject you are educated in "drivel."

Leigh,
You are a bit of a seagull.
You fly around screaming and s**ting on everyone and everything.

You demonstrate a limited knowledge base on which to scream about.

Get over your little ego trip and let a little sanity into your mind, maybe learn to read a little history - accurate history that is, not the edited version of the overlords.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders have not only had their land, culture, and children stolen from them. People like you keep insisting they must try to be 'white'.

There is a large amount of historical documentation of white colonialists enslaving Aboriginal children (some as young as 8) and women for sexual slavery.

It is easy to understand why some communities are dysfunctional when culture has been destroyed and Aboriginal people are abandoned. Such deviates that molest kids are not following Aboriginal law but they have learned a lot from the colonialists.

Just look at the grog culture in OZ. 9am in the morning, people are drinking plonk on morning TV shows. Oh and they are not black Australians.

There are many records of Indigenous Australians being enslaved to the colonialists.

Starvation and genocide is the lot that Indigenous Australians have experienced since colonisation.

Even today cretins like you insist that Aboriginals must be like people like you.
What is it with you and your mob - do you think you are somewhat God like - that every person must reflect your image?

Harry, your reference to” New book Indigenous Peoples and Poverty (pdf 101KB)”
Is not coming up on my browser, have you entered it wrong.

The Steven Cornell you refer to would by any chance be Stephen Cornell Director of the Udall Centre for Studies in Public Policy and Professor of Sociology and of Public Administration and Policy at the University of Arizona?

You will know when Sydney’s water is really too low to recover, Aboriginal people, will leave there in droves. Kinda like observing the birds, they head for the big water hole.

Aka,
Finally a sensible comment, great to read. Regarding your question to Leigh re being God like, I think Leigh believes he is GOD, and he has a few mates.

Mick;
What proof do you have sexual and physical abuse is the norm in such communities? A shameless tv playup of worse-case scenarios is not necessarily reflective of the facts; nor was there any balance of the reality in 'white' Australia. One must not forget the log in their own eye when pointing fingers, Mick; the reality is that domestic sexual abuse ranks highly in white Australia. Its hushed up of course; its a shameful thing for supposedly civilised people to have at the heart of their culture/communities.

Domestic violence and sexual abuse are things which need to be tackled across Australia, not simply in indigenous communities. Its used by the govt as a raft to propel further damaging legislation; Australia's new policy making is based on publicising a 'failed' status (in Aboriginal communities, in ET, and the Solomons) so they can move in and do things 'their' way. That so many of the public fall willingly for such nonsense perhaps confirms underlying preconceptions and prejudice which was only waiting for an excuse to come out into the light.

The chance for income within ABoriginal communities may be slim, but you should look into govt's unwillingness to strengthen the laws concerning Aboriginal ownership of their artwork. One major source of income is Aboriginal art; this is being taken away from communities, to offshore and interstate locations where such work is forged and sold on for ridiculous profit.

The Govt had the chance to strengthen legislation regarding these things, but chose not to, on the grounds it was 'too difficult to monitor'.

Would they have decided, do you think, on +any other issue of policing+, that it was 'too hard'? In my experience it comes down to
a) The importance of sustained ABoriginal communities to the government (none it seems - despite their obligations under the UN convention for indigenous peoples) and
b) The lucrativity of securing the land Aboriginal communities are on, and those operated currently by tribal owners.

Aka,

The fact that your feel better by calling me a cretin rather than combating my arguments with yours makes you a very sad person.

Shonga,

Small wonder you suffer from depression. Hate is very conducive to the condition. You will neve rid yourself of the black dog the way you are going, and you are not hurting me in any way at all - just yourself.

Honestly this reader is up to the neck with uttter disgust just reading or hearing him speak about the Aboriginal people,his talk and utterances are so empty,and above all it has no meaning,John Howard as he is known to me is a racist,and therefore a racist,even as Prime Minister,still remains just that

Aka says:
"You demonstrate a limited knowledge base"
to Leigh. If Leigh is looking for reasoned debate, then Aka is right; he must read up on his history.

Self determination is enshrined in International Law, and is working for other indigenous nations; Bolivia is a good example. That Australia's govt chooses to ignore it shows institutional racism, not wisdom.

Some Aborigines live in urban areas and work, but don't necessarily exercise 'self-determination'. You must understand the definition:
'a people ought to be able to determine their own governmental forms and structure free from outside influence'.

The fact you have not followed this up suggests aka is right in his/her assumption that you demonstrate a limited knowledge base.

"I do not blame the aborigines for trying to live in the Stone Age but with the benefits of civilization"; you will also note that Aboriginal communities are neither living in the stone age or with the benefits of civilization. The reason why the UN convention was formed is that it was recognised that usurper nations (like Oz) were responsible for destroying infrastructure/cultural advantages that existed naturally, and the right to self determination. They sought to redress these issues, and balance up things a little.

It was recognised that nations like Oz cannot have their cake and eat it, which is apparently what they want. Either you treat them like full citizens (in which case Aboriginal communities wouldn't be suffering from third world disease and poverty), or you give them self determination. As it is, the govt wants a little of each; solutions to the crises of health and poverty they place in the realm of responsibility of the communities themselves, self determination they deny of those same communities.

derek

The indigenous tribes came here approximately 60 thousand years ago like many tribes that wandered through the world looking for a place to live. They largely lived as nomads and lived in harmony and pride on their land. They stole women and children from other tribes and also went to war with other tribes. Sounds the same for every base culture of the world.

The world grew smaller and Britain which had been integrated with other countries and cultures for thousands of years found this land and a great new world opened up and brought this way of decay to a country that had been isolated for nearly 60 thousand years, and gave them a little over 200 years to catch up.What a great country to start destroying and using convicts to do so. They sent men, women and children over for pathetic reasons and raped and whored the women and children for their own sport. They used them as free labour until they realised that the prison sentences were running out and the population of Australia was being made up by exconvicts and indigenous people. Add to this that both the convict women and indigenous women were having children, the only difference was that ex convict men were granted land and freedom, women of both cultures could only earn money in servicing men or servicing a house. Now to the present and considering the government grants, lease holdings from major oil and coal companies and I am waiting for us to lease the water rights from the Kimberelys. That equals major wealth for a small country, yet, where is the money going? Not to the lands tribes, not to the housing, health, mental welfare, child protection, education, assimulation to learn to live together, alcohol prevention and where has the pride gone? Seems ASIC who have full control of the financial resources of all incoming and outgoing expenditures need to be taught basic finance and loyalty and pride for their fellow human beings.

Karooson and Co you are no better than Leigh.

Dwelling on colonialism does nothing to address the problems of indigenous Australians. But since we are dwelling let's be objective. British colonies have faired relatively well since the imperial era-HongKong, Malaya, NewZealand are prosperous. But wait! Modern history shows French success in Lebanon/theCongo, Portugal was great in Timor, the Dutch were superb in SouthAfrica , Tibetans were fostered by China and Japan united Korea(sarcasm++). If anybody but the British had colonised Australia the indigenous population would probably be worse off. I am not trying to justify the wrongs of colonialism-its impossible. But dwelling on it is unproductive and irrational.

Karooson andCo are perpetuating the victim mentality but have no answers/suggestions to improve the plight of aboriginals. The article's author maintains that aboriginal Australians should have self-determination-has he forgotten that between 1980-2004 paternalism was a 'dirty' word and that all aboriginal Australians got was self-determination? ASIC was responsible for frittering away billions of dollars through corrupt,nepotist policies.

Nobody is asking aboriginals to forget or to forgive- but how about working for future generations? Elders talk about lost dreaming but the reality of the situation is that elders need to talk about alcohol abuse and parental responsibilities. Why can't aboriginal communties get kids off the street by 11pm and stop women/the elderly being beaten?

'DerekLane' is in denial- numerous studies conducted by government/aboriginal organisations confirm truancy and domestic violence are FAR more prevalent within aboriginal communities than in mainstream Australia. A report in The Australian only yesterday highlighted AliceSprings has the highest rate per-capita of violent crimes in Australia-87% involved aboriginals!

Howard isn't a racist-he has the conviction to pursue policies widely supported-such as 'mutual responsibility'. Before you say it- Australians aren't racist! If you want to find racism hit the streets of Paris, the suberbs of Pretoria or the soccer stadiums of Spain. Australians want to help indigenous communities- they are just not interested in dwelling on the past. Afterall if your ancestors didnt come here as British convicts, Vietnamese boat-people, Greek/Italian war migrants or Jewish Holocaust survivors, you're probably not Australian!

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20273332-2702,00.html

121 deaths over 10 years in the +Northern Territory+, not, as the article suggests by its buildup, Alice alone.

http://www.nt.gov.au/justice/ocp/docs/statistics/0409issue9ntcp_stats.pdf#search=%22statistics%20murder%20non%20indigenous%20Northern%20territory%22

28 deaths over a one year period, x 10 years=280

Population approx 60000 indigenous compared to approx 200000 non indigenous.

Comparisons of 'violent crime': 121 deaths over 10 years by indigenous
vs 280 total over 10 years (white inc)

30% of population of NT committed 43% of the total. They are therefore 13% more violent than the rest of the state, something which could easily be accounted for by the low socioeconomic situation comparatively, drug addiction and lack of resources provided for the rest of the country. (Note: such disparity between what 'they' get and what 'we' get is evidence of apartheid - the same goes for mandatory sentencing). (I can dig up stats on this too, if you like).

As the article suggests, we can't convict of murder (so manslaughter) in many cases, because it is fueled by alcohol. Yet what effort is made to maintain help (for alcoholics) and abstinence, with, particularly in tourist destinations, an abundance of alcohol available?

This is part of self determination, which is consistently undermined by the state where it sees fit. Many Aboriginal communities +know+ that inaccessibility to alcohol works (as a first stage); following that, allowing real development to take place. As I said, the state wants it cake to eat. That, it cannot have.

The Australian's report was obviously slanted to a view point it found appealing. It is also wrong in its conclusions, as you can see from above.

Australia is a racist nation; you can maintain that it is not; S Africans did the same before apartheid was overthrown too, showing all the things they were doing for the blacks. Colonialism is the root of the cause, as it was always. When we can allow real self-determination to take place (and not forever on our terms, but under the terms of the UN) then we are beginning to quell our colonialist urges. But not before.

cheers,

Derek

Capitalism does not permit meaningful relationships to Earth, self, all, by us, people.

Leigh does have a point ...indigenous pple must start making their own luck..because govts dont really give a toss...they are ,as Ive said elsewhere, content to dole out money and say they are doing something..the easy option..a poisoned chalice...Paternalism with a deadly twist.

Of course having said that it is not simply a matter of putting them in populates and skilling them..language and cultural barriers exist and are very real..
The answer is education.'
Properly targeted to the main needs of ind pple to give them some kind of chance at succeeding maistream.

They do need to take charge and create their own luck...

"The answer is education." - this sounds very much like assimiliation when you put it in context of 'succeeding in the mainstream'.

"They do need to take charge and create their own luck" - This is the very premise behind the indigenous convention. Self-determination is at the forefront of indigenous efforts, but government is not allowing it the full scope needed. Read the convention - you will see there is a balance that needs to be played between help and success. If govt sets boundaries of self-determination (and supplies funding only on paper, see http://www.nit.com.au/story.aspx?id=5598) then it is set up to fail.

Despite this, Aboriginal communities are succeeding - we only hear the failure stories.
http://www.newmatilda.com/home/articledetailmagazine.asp?ArticleID=1810&HomepageID=160

derek

Leigh, have you lived and worked with Aboriginal people on a first name basis either in the bush or the city, for any length of time ??
I am trying to understand your points of view .