The author, and most of his respondents, are entirely missing the point, because their arguments contain an unstated assumption that “human beings are fundamentally good, but [BOGEYMAN X] makes them do all these terrible things.”

What is the one thing that all these events have in common: the Crusades, the Mongol horde, the Inquisition, the Ottoman expansion, Spanish/British/Dutch/French/German/Russian/Japanese imperialism, the Pogroms, the Nazis, Facism, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Pot, Balkan butchery, Hutu-Tutsi genocide, Islamo-facism?

Did anyone say “people”?

Seems silly to blame it all on a bunch of books, or the absence of them.

Mr Man: Careful reading of the Bible clearly shows that 'ever-lasting torturing hell fire' just does not exist and has never been. This idea of a fiery hell was used by those who wanted a malleable, compliant group of tithe paying followers. numbat

Martin's Link....Niall_Ferguson

here is a quote from it:

"But how far has our own loss of religious faith turned this country into a soft target - not so much for the superstition Chesterton feared, but for the fanaticism of others?"
Niall Ferguson.

A day or 2 ago, in my gym, I was chatting with a friend who told me his 2 sons are desperate to join the Army and obtain an overseas posting.. like Iraq or Afghanistan.

I asked him this "How do you sons feel about facing a 'pious young man who is relying on the help of Allah' and who doesn't care squat if he is killed because of the 70+Virgins that Ferguson relates from the mouth of suicide bomber Muktar Said-Ibrahim ?"

Apparently they still have 'Church Parade' a compulsory thing in the ADF.. quite surprising. But they study lots of faiths...

Men and Women here... all of you....are we going to be part of the vacuum that 'would be' Muktar Said Ibrahims fill ? or.. are we prepared to resolutely study the Faith, and see just how beautifully sound it is, and to rediscover any faith we once had, or discover Christ for the first time.. and to live for Him, and be able to say with Paul the great Apostle "For me to live is Christ... to die is gain" What greater strength can a man or woman have ? No man or woman living for Christ, would seek to die in any unChristlike manner, so please don't take this as a 'Christian suicide' guide.

Some of us have intellectual barriers.. but are they really ? perhaps they are moral barriers in disguise ? Philosophical barriers ? "Loving God and Just God" incompatible ? Not at all.

May we fulfill our Constitutional pre-amble.. Humbly seeking the guidance of Almighty God...
May we return to the fold... from lostness...
May we reach out.. and accept that tiny mustard seed of faith, and let it grow in our hearts to become one of the mightiest of trees...

Let this Great South Land... be Renewed, Revived Restored.

Further to my previous post, it seems people are looking at a series of unrelated historical events and trying to force them through their preferred mould of “religion is good” or “religion is bad”.

But really, can anyone find any coherent common thread between all the massacres of history, other than people? It only seems possible to do so if you distort the facts beyond recognition through your preferred ideological bent.

It also reflects rather poorly on all the arguments presented that the deaths of millions are being used rhetorically as evidence “for” or “against”.

Surely the more urgent priority is to work out what it is intrinsically in human beings that makes us behave in this way, instead of locating the source of the problem externally?

I'm just thinking that we're more likely to prevent the next massacre if we try to understand the intrinsic nature of people, not the fors and againsts of religion or anti-religion.

BOAZ_David,

With respect to you, thanks for the invitation to re-join Christianity, but sorry the bridges were burned there long ago.

The stories I could tell, given the space! I am not given to anger, but I have seen too much.

Nevertheless, it would be a mistake for me to wildly throw rocks at Christianity or organised religion. For one thing, it seems there is a fundamental need in humans to invent a set of mythological beliefs to give certainty to what is otherwise a fairly uncertain world.

All human cultures through time have developed ther own set of such beliefs. Utterly fascinating. Part of the rich tapestry of human heritage. Christianity is neither more of less important, more or less valid, than the Aboriginal dreamtime.

All the same, for me and many others, this human strait is self-limiting and, worse, tends to lead many into a shallow, blinkered view of the world - and from there to the politics of division. This is true of the multinational churches, as well as fundamentalist sects of various denominations.

And...... I really liked the post from REASON. Couldn't have put it better myself, whoever you are.

To Kenny and Seether. You both say Hitler was religious. Could you explain please in what way he was religious. I am not saying he wasn't I just need to have it explained. Where can I find evidence of Hitler's religiosity?