Thanks for the article Bill!
Looks like you've struck a 'raw nerve'!

Many have thought these issues through, quite regularly, evidently. However, many of their new rationalised positions - and view of all things - is based on a rejection of a rather 'thin' version of Christianity. For example, the rather lame 'I can't reconcile a God of mercy with a God who judges, and includes hell in the grand scheme of things'. I would say, it is time to explore some of the things that seem to be paradoxical.

Many posters, dislike any reminder of the Christian origins of a good society, such as Australia (For example: 21 of the top 23 charities in Australia, are Christian).

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2006/1716050.htm

Sunday school kids who got weary of mere moralism (like myself), just left it all (for a time).
But, sadly, many have only managed to displace a Christian world-view with a 'blame-it-on-the-past' hollow atheism, lack of thankfulness for present benefits, and a goal-less, secular society, going nowhere in particular. Many are still guilty ex-Sunday schoolers, with no substantial eschatology, or teleology - except that of a clearly misguided Marx.

The responses to your article, Bill, indicates that it is high time that history was studied well, as solid history, rather than in handy grab-bags.

The recent National Forum calling for 'Recognition of Australia's Christian Heritage', is quite timely, I am sure.

Highwave, you could do a search of the web and have a read of extracts of some of Hitlers speaches. There plenty out there as well as plenty of discussion about his religious beliefs. There is evidence to suggest that Hitler considered himself to be doing gods work and some evidence to the contrary. No real case to suggest that his work was an example of the work of someone who does not believe in the christain god.

There might also be a case to suggest that much of the need for those charities is a result of the efforts of the religious, the decimation of the culture and economies of much of the third world by "christian" colonial powers is something that most of those peoples have not recovered from yet. Many of those charities were started at a time when most of western society was "christian" (or else) and many have become secular in practice if not mission statement.

Numbat - I've not heard from you for a while. Welcome back.

R0bert

Perhaps there is yet a "third way". A way of seeing all of this which is closer to the truth.

By and of itself, religion is at worst harmless, at best a spiritual comfort - a language to describe feelings which are at odds with our materialistic existence. What's so wrong with that?

Yet time and again, religion is used by people who would have their way with us. It is the greatest con-trick in history. While the perpetrators get away with it, we obligingly scuffle about on the floor arguing about religious differences.

As a parallel, think about the War on Terror. While it is up to a small brown man (who may or may not have "things") to provide some semblance of a threat, it is up to us toolheads to imagine the terror - which we slavishly do. I could cry for shame. This is Australia 2006 and a fat lot we have to show for our fancy education.

The war in Lebanon was nothing to do with religion - NOTHING.

It was to do with oil, water, arable land and the prospect of immense personal profits. Yet we all donned the religious blindfold at the first peep of the dog-whistle.

Christianity is the religion that I chanced to be born into. It is by far the most serially abused ideology - the realm of profiteers, snake-oil salesmen and sociopathic murderers. Hardly a frame of reference from which to understand the world with an uncluttered mind. Jews and Muslims toil under the same yoke. All it takes is a cartoon here, a sly suggestion there, to overcome a world of common sense.

Just think, with a tool as powerful as Online Opinion, we could climb out of the primordial muck and confront those who would make monkeys of us.

- if we had a mind to.

I guess I don't care very much about religion. Not sure if there's a god or not, don't much care. But it seriously, seriously pisses me off when sanctimonious old farts like Bill try to suggest I'm either naive, defective or just plain stupid for not adopting their faith holus-bolus.

Have your religion Bill. Knock yourself out. But save the evangelising.

Anth

The examples of atheist wars vs religeous wars in this article were half-trues and falsehoods.

Not only was the technology in the 20th century capable of killing people on a much larger scale, but if you take into consideration that the world was (and still is) far more populated than it was in previous centuries, then I think it would be safe to say that religous wars (in proportion) were far worse.

Gecko and fdixit,

I too left Christianity after a strict Christian upbringing.

Firstly, because I could not believe in a God that would condemn someone to eternal torture for simply not believing and;

Secondly, I simply couldn't align myself with the elite, war-mongering, power-hungry and money-grubbing Christian Right.

Chris Shaw, you say:

"Christianity ...is... the most serially abused ideology - the realm of profiteers, snake-oil salesmen and sociopathic murderers. Hardly a frame of reference from which to understand the world with an uncluttered mind."

You are right to observe that you 'turn up' in a world - wherever you happen to be placed.
And snake-oil is prevalent everywhere. That is no valid reason to reject Christianity. Do you reject all people in life, because there are many highly deceitful people?

I can testify, that orthodox Christianity is an excellent frame of reference from which to understand the world. God in Christ, present at: 1. Creation. 2. Fall, and 3. Redemption.

The most complex world-view must surely be having to make sense of the world (from scientific facts alone), and then to debate some way forward, wherein humanity must first find (national or global) agreement, before they can begin to make any real headway!