I find views like Richardson's quite odd - as a young woman (23), I have not seen any evidence in my social group - or even that of my younger brother - to suggest that his views continue to be the case in men of my generation.

The various young men of my acquaintance expect their girlfiends/partners/wives to work in professional jobs, and respect them for doing so. Indeed, my boyfriend was chatting to one of his female friends when she was having a "agggh, no one loves me" freak out, and pointed out that she was very attractive to men - not just because she was pretty, but because she was "smart and financially solvent". The girl in question was rather annoyed that financially solvent was one of her attractions (although pleased that 'smart' played into her attractions!), but when I heard this report, it made me realise, that just as women have always looked for a degree of fiancial stablity in men, so men now look for it in women. And why should they not? If you truly believe that relationships are partnerships, then you tend to look for similar traits that will set you up as a couple.

I have read several of the 'foundation' texts of second wave feminism (greer, friedan, de bouvior), and identify as a feminist, as I know what the word means. Many young women these days do not call themselves feminist, as they do not realise what anti-feminism truly was. I doubt many young women would seek to give up the right to vote, the right to work for equal pay, the right to purchase property, the right to be an individual, not a chattel. But that is what pre-feminism meant for women.

On slightly different topic- I find the fact that less than half of marriages break up quite inspiring. In a society where there are no social consequences for divorce (you are not shunned, for example), the fact that more than half of the people who marry continue to stay that way for the rest of their lives is amazing.

Billie,
Sorry but I didn’t ask for evidence of women’s participation in professions in the 1800’s. You may have mistaken me for someone else?

GlenW... where to start.

I haven’t had a family, so am not qualified to make such statements? I’ll avoid insulting you and just give you an insight into what I know of the capabilities of women:
My mother was single and raised 4 children alone as the father was an alcoholic, left the family and refused to assist with raising the children. The mother worked 15 years night work as a nurse to see the children morning and night, while also completing the following:
- 2 degrees at university,
- State president of Toastmasters,
- Award winning speaker for Epicure Toastmasters,
- Lieutenant in the Australian Army Reserve,
- Sexual Assault counsellor at a major hospital,
- Aged Care instructor at a TAFE

And all the while raising these 4 children. And what of the children? Lawyer, police officer, Phycologist and Assistant Manager as a casino. No criminal records, no drug use, no alcoholics.

And I come from a world where single women with kids was a regular sight and knew many women in this unenviable position. What I saw and what I know is that statements that restrict any gender into a mould are incompatible with reality.

Now GlenW. Tell me I know nothing of families and single parents again…please.

As to my last sentence not making sense – can you explain why? Seems to me it made perfect sense. Whether I am the primary income earner or she is was the point (in case you missed it) and as this world seems to judge men and women by this benchmark, I’d simply give them the ‘bird’ for their troubles if anyone judged in this way. Clear now?

Sure, gender is a part of life. But that does not make it a part of living. Do I need to explain this for you?

And finally, your oh so special statement – to quote: “We are not human’... Need I say more?

Reason,
You know nothing of families and single parents.
Do you really think it is wise to ask me to tell you again.
You asked, I complied.
As you grow older all the things you think are important are not really important.
Love, understanding, empathy, compassion, passion, independence are the important things.

Wow,
I love these posts.
but to go back to Glenwroter's odd question, some days ago about when "females' will enjoy sex without wanting kids, I can only answer that many of them do already.
Women tend to enjoy sex most, it seems to me, when they are in a loving realtionship with a considerate partner who truly wants them to enjoy it.
Women enjoy sex least when they feel pressured to have it, that it is their"duty" to have sex, and there will be an emotional price to pay if they say no.
It is true that the birth of children can effect women's desire for sex. This is partly physical, they need to recover, and partly emotional. When you become a life support system for another human being ( i.e. a mother, particularly of very young children) you want to be nurtured and looked after in your turn, not to have to turn round and look after yet another adult human being after the kids have finally gone to sleep. i remember telling my husband I was all hugged out one night when the kids were small and, bless him, he totally understood. I needed physical space at that time, not physical closeness.
If you are with a woman with small kids and you want a better sex life, a word to the wise, do a whole lot of housework, listen to her sympathetically when she whinges, and make sure you give her plenty of no strings attached massages and back rubs - they just might develop into something.
Getting sulky and hurt and demanding won't make you more attractive.

GlenW,
I know nothing of single families? As I grow older? How old do you think I am? So my life experience counts for nought? Interesting point of view, I’ll give you that much.

And what did I ask that you complied with. Sorry but you are not making any sense to me. Feel free to elucidate and clear my clouded mind.

I certainly agree that the 5 qualities you outlined in your last sentence are very important. I have never implied any differently. Can you please tell me what I think are important at this ‘early stage’ in my life, since you seem to know my mind?

Please I would really like to know what you think my current values and thoughts are. While you are at it, can you tell me exactly how you came to read my mind and know me so well after a couple of posts?

Ena,
Ever so true in what you say. I’d go so far as to say it should be applied to the ‘housemate’ of the couple - the one who stays home and provides the love and care for the child. And the housework for the most part. It doesn’t have to be a gender issue.

Ena,
I could answer you with clever quips about posts, horses and sulkies, and different positions when in the Lounge or anywhere else in house advertising but that was when humour was humour and people had a sense of humour.
In today's straight-jacket world where people take a fence and a paling and nail someone to the wall, men are losers when they joke, as jokes are sexual harassment.

Ena,
it wasn't that long ago when the average married couple has sex three times a week. Now it is down to about 1.8 times a week. I know, I know you have already said it is the man's fault in not doing enough housework and back massaging.
Why am I divorced Ena?
Because I didn't do all the housework to the standard she wanted?
I didn't listen to her whinges long enough and attentively enough? She was a schoolteacher and had to tell me about her 28 children.
And my arms and hands aching in massaging her?
Then she complained because I was dressed in an apron most of the time.
And what hapened after all that? She said I did not act like a man. We divorced.
PS: Peter Costello has just been on TV trying to get couples to have more children. He is trying to get it up to 2.1 children per couple.
Yes, I know men are not doing enough housework.