W, reason and tolerance for what? You can use reason to think about things, to make sure your ideas are consistent and so on. But what is the end product of your reason? What does it lead you to think is important in life? You haven't told us.

And tolerance might generally be a good thing, but it doesn't really tell us what you yourself actively endorse. It only tells us that you don't try and repress the things you disagree with.

So tell us what are the higher things, the things of quality, which make your life significant. Is it a patriotic love of homeland? Is it a pursuit of moral virtue? Is it a love of family? A love of the opposite sex?

"W" said:

"the conflict between those who, in the name of religion, claim the right to tell others how to behave, and those of us who refuse their claim."

Actually, this is not quite what we 'BibleBashers/GodBotherers' are on about.

There is only one valid basis where "we" can 'tell' you what to do, and that is if you are also a committed Christian. i.e. one of us.

Here is the picture-

22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.

1/ Draw near to God
2/ Cling to our Hope
3/ Spur one "another" on towards love and good deeds.

In regard to the wider community, we have the democratic right to vote according to our conscience in Christ, and this will inevitably shape our laws JUST AS when those of secular persuasion do the same, and inevitably effect us.

We can 'prophetically' call on the community to turn away from things which we know in our heart of hearts will ultimately bring destruction to our social order, but the prophetic voice is just that..a voice, not a law, nor an imposition by a religious beurocracy.

Individuals outside of Christ can CHOOSE to listen, and follow, or listen and reject.

Christians have a specific calling in relation to the wider community and her it is

Salt (to preserve) and Light (to show the way)

The words of Jesus "The wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction" are based on spiritual realities, but are also based on 'choice'.

So, no matter how much 'preserving' or how much 'showing'we do, people can and will choose either the 'wide broad' way or the 'narrow hard' way....which leads to life.

We are merely 'signposts' on the road of life.

You miss the point, Mark. I’m not here to change anyone, or even to promote my values.

The point is that the values are mine, acquired in a lifetime of experience and reflection. They deserve respect, not because they are better or worse than anyone else’s, but because they are the foundation of my human-ness.

When the proselytisers try to undermine the beliefs and values of others, they are showing the greatest possible disrespect. Their verses and chapters may mean something to them, but it’s the height of arrogance to claim that the verses give them a mandate to dictate the civil behaviour of others.

Finally Mark, how I implement my system of values is my own business, so I won’t be providing the personal details you ask for.

Thank you W. and special mention to Pericles and Alchemist.

Once again Sells is casting aspersions on any who differ in their beliefs to his. Agnostics and atheists are presented as empty vessels living in a void that is only punctuated by consumerism and selfish, selfish choice. Other religious are not left unscathed by Sells' 'superiority' either, because he insists that only his version of religion is the 'true' path.

This persistence to denigrate others, continually pounded out by Sells' frequent articles on OLO, flies in the face of the tolerance preached by Jesus.

Now he is attacking freedom of choice; he presents a two dimensional view of what this means, presenting it in terms of consumerism and selfishness. He doesn't want to accept that people can act responsibly, ethically and humanely outside the constraints of formal religion, for to do so would undermine his own rigidly held beliefs.

Peter Sellick continues to prove the nihilism of his own existence - if he didn't have his version of religion to cling to, he would have nothing at all as he is incapable of visualising a life lived in full responsibility for all its actions without recourse to the supernatural.

Very sad indeed.

Interesting that the fastest growing churches, at least here in Sydney, are the pentecostal ones. Christianity is gussied up with rock music and the message is "prosperity gospel". There's an interesting article on Hillsong here http://www.reportage.uts.edu.au/stories/southside/hillsong1.html . Looks like the ideal church for the consumer age.

Johnj

Large beurocratic Churches (Anglicans_RC_Uniting) are as far from the idea of the 'Church' in the new Testament, as is the concept of 'prosperity' gospel.

It probably represents the greatest 'white_anting' of true Christian faith today.

Give to God SO YOU CAN GET.... aarrggggh....

No question that living for the Kingdom first is to experience abundant blessing both materially and spritually but to PREACH on the abundance of material reward is absolutely to put the cart before the horse. Is simply repackages selfish consumerism with a spiritual branding.

I could rave on about material blessings, of giving away my inheritance at the beginning of my Christian life, and now at the near end of it receiving back 10fold, but if I said it might take 30 yrs to see that, I don't know how many would be interested.

The point is, the Christian life is NOT about 'giving to get' its about this:

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." as Paul said in Galatians 2.20

If "I" no longer live, why the heck am I worried about material reward in my path of living for God ? To use a modern phrase... that is SOOOOOOOOOOO 'not' what its about.

Perhaps we need more preaching in the Pentecostal Churches you refer to like this:

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

Obviously, this must be interpreted contextually and culturally.
But in context, he said this to CROWDS of people who were following Him due to his miracles and his healings !

Yet today, we have televangelists like Benny Hinz&Co ADVERTISING "Miracle Service" (but make sure you have your credit card ready, our stewards have the swipers on standby)