I disagree with your initiatives in relation to health.

Other amenities and infrastrucute yes your mesh system may have legs, but health is an issue for all Australians and whilst many problems wth remote communities and the like require a health service almost exclusively for Aboriginal people, by separating services such as this more money goes down the beauracratic toilet and less money is directed at the real needs. Forget the segregation, the health of Australians is an issue for the exisitng albeit poor state infrastructure, but a push for remote base hospitals and clinics even though the populations bases are low is where the need is.

The key is in a traditional owners levy, made payable in the rates of every piece of property in Australia and given back to the respective traditional owners. Whilst a small pittance for the individual landowner, the collective monies could transform Communities and provide a longevity of income to generate the required services, support programs and initiatives.

No one will listen though.

You are part of the problem. Self-empowernment is killing Indigenous people and destroying their children. Time to move over and let other's have a go.

Tony Abbott says that “each Aboriginal household receives $70,000 a year in Federal Government services and transfer payments”, yet Gavin Mooney then says that “the overall spend also needs to be radically increased”.

Mooney also says “the idea that Aboriginal people are getting more than a fair share of public funding and then wasting most of the money is a common myth”. I think it is time for Gavin to have a reality check. A family income of $70,000 is well above average. How can a Federal minister justify giving an aboriginal family so much when other Australians are entitled to so much less?

Welfare payments should be based on need, not on race.

Rob88 how about you check your facts before getting int a tizz?

ABS figures would show that each Indigenous family does not get $70,000.

Figures such as 70 grand might incorporate an average of the overall spending which probably inclues any such meetings that might relate to or mention Indigenous issues. This would include minister and public servants travel and accomadation expenses, their meals etc.

If you seriously believe that each Indigenous family gets 70 grand you must also believe in the tooth fairy and children overboard.

It is possible that you might be suffering from a dis-ease called Downward Envy. It is treatable by education :)

Gavin Mooney states “they know what the solutions are.”

THEN WHY ON EARTH ARE THEY NOT IMPLEMENTING THEM?

Tony Abbots “paternalistic” model is a reaction to the disaster which has emanated from the “cultural values” which Gavin wants to enshrine.

To suggest “They need support to rebuild their communities in the way that they want according to their cultural values.”

Is a contradiction in terms.

That is, if we accept that “cultural values” are what hold a community together, suggesting they need support to rebuild, admits that there are no “cultural values” left.

Then we come to “MESH”, Well “management, economic, social and human” a cute name for what exactly?

Over-subsidised cargo cult attitude toward all things material, eroding the dignity (YES DIGNITY) found from personal effort, determination and the knowledge that what has been done has been done by self sacrifice for love?

I figure” Social and Human Aboriginal Management” could be an equally accurate title as “MESH” and certainly more appropriate when using the initials to produce an acronym.

I also believe no one will ever find self respect, independence or any sense of “cultural value” through being pandered to

It seems to me that Aboriginals need to start small if they're going to achieve anything at all. That's because so many of them are so far down the toilet that, realistically, anything more is unachievable. For that reason I reckon MESH is pitched far too high to be of any value at the current time.

Best for Aboriginals if they start from their strengths, no matter how basic, and build up from there. Once they get something established, they can use this as leverage for something better. Then, maybe ideas like MESH could come into their own.

Self determination is feasible only if responsible governing is present. It is obvious that in the failed communities , responsibility has taken second place to power plays.
Abbott's use of the word 'Paternalism' may have been a poor choice but the failed communities need sensible governance until the generations can achieve ,through education,people who can control finance,crime,schooling ,social and medical matters. This could and should take years but it will get precisely no where unless some order is put in place now.

Only a suggestion, mind yez, but looks like Tony Abbot's article opened a hornet's nest. And so it be, for it is something so much needed.

Keep it up, mates with plenty of different opinions, for it is out of the dialectical stewpot, that sound reasoning finally comes forth.

Aboriginal Australians have faced all manner of disadvantage, prejudice and outright brutality almost consistently for 200 odd year. It will take many years and a number of generations for the wrongs to even begin to be righted in any meaningful way. We must start now.

Indigenous Australians have as much right to determine their own destiny as any of us. They also have as much right to the services, support and assets that allow people to make choices about their destiny as anyone. Government's have a responsibility to their citizens to provide the infrastructure that allows them to make choices about their lives - health care,education,job opportunities,transport,etc. The majority of Indigenous Australian's have had quite different experiences and influences to the majority of white Australians, so its no surprise that the forms or extent of support they need from their government will often differ.

I agree that our aim should be to improve the health, education etc of all Australians, not only indigenous people. But this is about equity, not equality. Giving everyone the same thing is only fair if everyone is starting from the same point. Clearly that is not the case.

The call for paternalism is underpinned by the need for good governance; some communities govern well, others not so well. Thus any approach taken need to be balanced. At the same time the call for absolute local self determination should be balanced. Not because it can’t be done but simply because of the problems that regularly pop up in local governments of all stripes. Faceless bureaucrats are not the answer either, paternalism isn’t, and local government isn’t. Rather a combination of approaches with strong emphasis on local engagement and good governance.

Unfortunately, no white offers of help, other than the financial [70k/annum, mostly used to support habits] or land handouts will ever be accepted by the indigenous. Until the Indeginous decide for themselves and become accountable to the themselves and the government/law for their future decisions, their plight will further decline. I would propose that a very large body of indigenous, both lay people and elders be assembled and agree on terms for their people to live, be disaplined and educated that also protects those of us who have to live under Australian Laws. Then leave them to full fill their system. Because simply, we are damned if we help and damned if we don’t help. This way the Indigenous can’t blame colonialisation for their future and we are able to help if it is decided. I think equality is the beginning, I would love 70K just for being a 32nd part Indeginous. However if their system doesn’t work they would have agreed to specific legal actions that the government could take, this would avoid another stolen claim. Any way just a thought.

You are ALL wrong as best I can make out with a quick look at your posts.

Only I am right. And I don't have ALL the answer. But at least I can see the problem(s). And they go something like this:

. The Aborigines are a conquered people and no one will come to terms with that fact.

. The Aborigines have been separated off from the rest of us on the grounds that they are different - socially, culturally, etc.

. The Aborigines are expected to perform like us (socially, culturally, etc..) in this separate place.

. Their separate places are not constructed like ours - land ownership, land development, etc.. etc.. (including commercially viable reason for existing as a settlement)

. The Aborigines OF COURSE, STUPID! never ever had traditional 'leaders' in our sense - ministers, civil servants, politicians, governments, bureacracies, police forces, social workers, etc.., etc..

. The Aborigines are expected to perform in our way via their 'traditional leaders' (in our sense).

and so on.... I'm bored with it and there's a 350 word maximum.

The solution lies somewhere in

1. Accept the 'defeated people' thing - after all, all the rest of us are defeated people, aren't we? My family's land was taken centuries ago by - who? The Romans? The Danes?

2. Relate to them as individuals each with full citizenship rights. Not as weird 'other race' blackfellers approachable only through this screen of 'traditional leaders' (non-traditional opportunists, bullies, bigmouths, con artists, etc., etc...

3. Consign all remote communities to the rubbish bin, no more funding. Let 'traditional' aborigines live there, if you like, in a traditional way, no clothes (if they like), eating bush tucker. The question of their kids... I dunno.

Most of the problem would go away if it weren't fed continually.

Just get warmed up and I guess 350 words must be about here...
Yes, it was - I had to cut out about 60 or 70 words.. I'll try a second post..

Here's the bit I cut out of my last post so's I could get under 350 words...

It still leaves what I have to say as incomplete... but that's the way it should be... understanding this problem is simple, really, it doesn't take thousands of words, shouldn't do...

Here's the bit I cut out:

Check Mick Dodson - talks about aboriginal 'sovereignty'. He wants an aboriginal 'nation' as do many others even if they don't realise it. What's the final result of that? Division of this nation. Black Australia and White Australia or whatever you want to call it. But two nations. AND THAT'S OKAY TOO - if you want to do that then grasp the nettle and DO IT! Partition Australia. Set up borders, customs, passports, whatever...

Decide what you're doing. Are they conquered or not? Are they Aussies or not?