Yes, Australia is truly a country of immigrants. Recent DNA studies suggest that Aboriginals are not an homogeneous group, arriving in five major waves between 40K-25K years BP. Dot painting started about 3,000 years ago. So, the culture has not been static. Historically, aboriginal socities seem to have been ideologically tethered,deep into the dreamtime and trading rituals between clans.

Technologically, the West led the way through Great Divergence, so, perhaps, the situation encountered by early aboriginals, could not be compared with say the Celts encountering the Romans.The arrival of the British must have been overwhelming.

"As we move into the 21st Century, with globalisation and the effects of global and domestic conflict on cultural grounds, one wonders what future implications will emanate from the impact of cultural transmission."

Indeed - I wait in anticipation to read Patricia's next article on the effect so far of Australia's “intake” in the past 3 decades, particularly the impact of the islamic culture – which as we know is 180 degrees at odds with the conventional "European" category.

Interesting times ahead...for sure.

Football (soccer) is the number one cultural sport in the world. Every migrant has this chronic fever in their blood; a football gene is knitted in their DNA. It is now starting to emerge and finally getting its overdue recognition with the other mega-sports.

The influence of "rugby" and cricket has but filled a temporary gap for the newcomers instead of fully indoctrinate them into the Australian ways.

With the promising “new” interest in soccer - I see a faint light at the end of the islamic cultural blending tunnel - hopefully it will not be an oncoming train...

Gough Whitlam’s claim about Australia being a nation of immigrants and the consequent blind parroting of that claim is misleading. Yes, even the original occupants came here from Asia, but they were never Australian – they were separate tribes of people who spent a lot of their time warring and hating each other. Then, along came white settlers/colonists, immigrants if you like or even ‘invaders’ as the precious left are now calling them.

But how long are people supposed to think of themselves as immigrants or descendants of immigrants?

The entire we- are -a –nation-of- immigrants blah started as a ruse of the multiculturalists to make us feel better about a piece of social engineering they forced on us without consultation. It’s interesting that a social scientist and ‘educator’ uses the myth as an opener here; even though it has little relevance to her very basic thumbnail sketch of Australian immigration history, brought on, no doubt, by the current hysteria about soccer.

But the claim is irritating and wrong in its own right, perpetuating the myth that there was no Australian culture long before modern mass immigration - a unique Australian culture, NOT an immigrant one. That culture is not just one among many, as the politicians would like us to believe. It is the bedrock of civilized Australia and the host culture to later arrivals.

Those of you who look for truth rather than believing something only because it is repeated many times by social engineers might like to read John Hirst’s book of essays, “Sense and Nonsense in Australian History”.

Immigrants are now apart of Australia society,even if some people don't like it.Some Australians have had a hard time dealing with multiculturalism , because these people feel their more superior to immigrants, why?They say the land is theirs, and people who don't fit the bill (immigrants) are not good enough to be in their land.If immigrants come from countries that make their clothes produce products for them to buy,but immigrants still are in their country to live free off of them. Their nervous,insecure power hungry people,well most of them.Deep down it has nothing to due with keeping identity. Anyone with 2 eyes can truly see that. Can't let people like that get to us.

It is a long time since Australians were influenced by Irish or UK attitudes. Perhaps it was WW2 that unravelled the ties. We have evolved into a distinct race that is neither European nor Asian,I hope that "our" culture will never be submerged or dominated by bad immigration mistakes.
If we concentrate on quantity and forget quality, we will go down the path of other failed third worlds.
This is too good a country to mess up through idiotic ideology.

Australia's immigration program needs to be considered as coming in a series of waves. The first major wave was during the gold rush, when the cultural mix was more diverse than at any time since. After the rush was over we settled down to a period of assimilation, and by the 1930's we were essentially back to a monoculture with a few additions, such as (australian) chinese cuisine. The same could well be happening now, with many muslim immigrants keen to blend in to the majority culture as fast as possible. The best example of cultural assimilation I have heard came from a chinese immigrant a few years ago who said:

"When I arrived here 10 years ago I was really shocked to hear people say that the governemnt was the enemy of the people. It's only recently that I realised they were right."

My response was: "you've assimilated"

Nothing like a little bit of "race" discussion to evoke posts.

I love the way in which educated guesses and urban myths are promulgated as truths.

"An important feature of the 1949 Australia Day Act introduced by the Chifley Government was that it provided the means for new arrivals to join the native-born as Australians. Through the legislation the notion of “Australian citizen” allowed all Australians, whether of British or non-British background, to have membership of Australian society, including all the legal and political responsibilities and privileges accompanying such status." ----
EXCEPT ABORIGINAL AND TORRES STRAIT ISLANDERS.

Leigh you even put Rancitas to shame when it comes to repetition.

My mob came over for the beer.

Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!
Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps please!

What's your culture Leigh et el - repeatedly bashing other cultures?

I read this piece a few times because its intentions are lost on me. I don't get it? Or is stating the bleeding obvious being reborn for the sake of it? A thumb nail sketch of Australian history mixed up with very simplistic cultural theories? Something we can all print off, fold up and put in our wallets lest we forget where 'Australian culure' is at? C'mon OLO, you can do better than this!

"We have evolved into a distinct race that is neither European nor Asian"

I'd wouldn't like to know what this guy thinks is our race?

"We have evolved into a distinct race that is neither European nor Asian"

What can this possibly mean? A 'distinct race' can only come about by intermarriage over a very long period. Australia has accepted large scale immigration from Asia for only a couple of decades. There has been some intermarriage, but by and large, races marry within their own. So where is this 'distinct race'? The population of Australia is still overwhelmingly white, English-speaking, and Christian (if only nominally so).

I do not - and never have - regarded myself as an 'immigrant'. I was born here, so were my parents, and their parents. I have no 'home country' to return to, Australia is my home.

Australia has certainly been influenced by new food, new ideas etc brought by migrants, but this phenomenom is cultural, not racial.

Amel says - "Some Australians have had a hard time dealing with multiculturalism , because these people feel their more superior to immigrants,"

Nonsense. First, Australians were never asked if we wanted 'multiculturalism', it was imposed upon us. Second, most Australians believe in integration and resent tribalism/multiculturalism (which has never worked anywhere in the world). Third, it is commonsense to expect immigrants to learn the language of the host country and to obey its laws and mores. It is absurd to encourage tribal ghettos and to create a world structured in terms of 'cultures'

People talk all sort of rubbish about America, how arrogant they are and so forth.Say what you want,it is one of the very very few nations to make multiculturalism work in a powerful way.God bless America.

@Dee:
You want immigrants who are not european to lose their heritage, to 'fit the bill' keep you comfortable.After that happens ,people like you still will not see them as "the truth".So its best for immigrants to be more of themselves.It not just food, its products made in sweat shops.I'm sure people like you don't Ask where your products come from,its naturally Australian.

AMEL said:

Some Australians have had a hard time dealing with multiculturalism , because these people feel their more SUPERIOR to immigrants, why?They say the land is theirs, and people who don't fit the bill (immigrants) are NOT GOOD ENOUGH to be in their land.

AMEL, your statement might well apply to STORMFRONT or the PATRRIOTIC YOUTH LEAGUE, but by and large, your statement was as racist as their positions.

You are projecting your OWN racist attitudes on the vast bulk of Aussies who are NOT on about 'we are superior' ...that is a total propoganda myth promoted by racist immigrants who use it to bash the prevailing culture, for their own ETHNO/RACIST agenda.

Should immigrants lose their heritage ? It depends on which parts you're referring to:

LANGUAGE ? by all means keep it, as long as you LEARN TO SPEAK ENGLISH fluently.

RELIGION ? by all means keep it, AS LONG AS it does NOT contain anything suggestive of setting up a 'STATE' along lines of that religion. (e.g. Islamic Republic)

To most of us, it is not about 'superiority' its about COHESIAN and CULTURAL IDENTITY, which surprising as it might seem,..... we actually HAVE ! and yes, I'm referring to the predominant AngloSaxon/Irish/Scottish/Celtic mix that built the new European flavored nation of Australia. I don't include Indigenous culture in this, as it is not part of our culture.

So the ISSUE with regard to immigrants is this:

Controlled numbers.
Controlled ethno/religious mix

with a goal of:

Political/Social/Cultural stability/cohesian in the mould established by the founding fathers and mothers.

Please don't EVER let me see you refer to the rest of us as regarding ourselves as 'superior' it is an obcene,racist,intolerant insult.

I'm always amazed that people see the need to link culture with "race". There is an Australian culture: there is no such thing as an Australian "race".

Our core culture is of British origin: it has been modified over time through contact with the country's indigenous peoples and with a vast range of migrant groups, but it continues to exist. There is, however, absolutely no link between being part of this culture and having a given genetic heritage. People from all over the world have become part of Australian society and have thus become Australians.

Like Canada, Australia has been attractive destination for migrants from all over the world precisely because of our British-derived institutions, values and culture. This has made us a multi-ethnic society, but we should not fall into the trap of confusing that with being multi-cultural.

Defending our culture - the very culture that has made us both attractive to and welcoming of migrants - has nothing to do with racism, because our culture does not belong to a "race".

Amel – I don’t understand what you are trying to say. What do ‘sweatshops’ have to do with anything? And please don’t tell me what I ‘want’ or what makes me comfortable, because you have no idea of either of these things. Most Australians I know do not feel ‘superior’ to migrants – in fact, my husband is a migrant, so perhaps you shouldn’t be so eager to assume that you know the beliefs of others. You sound quite racist against Australians.

“..,it [America] is one of the very very few nations to make multiculturalism work ..”

Have you lived there?

Ian – you say “Our core culture is of British origin” , then you add “there is …no link between being part of this culture and having a given genetic heritage”

This is my point. Approximately 70% of Australians are descended from the people who created our core culture, and are linked to it by their genes. Most WWII migrants have integrated very well into this culture and brought new life and colour to it (especially food).

Otherwise, I agree with you that being Australian is not a matter of genetics but of the heart, I just disagree with the ‘distinct race’ idea.

I used the word "race" when 'culture' would have more suitable. I also said that I hoped our 'culture' would not be submerged.
Because I believe we do have a distinct culture, maybe ethos would be a better choice.
We certainly are not American,English or Asian though a bit of all help makes up the whole.
I do not consider we are superior, we are different to many of the races who have made this their home . Unfortunately we are getting immigrants who consider that they are superior to us. They should be firmly pointed in the direction from which they came so they can return to the greatness that is their home country.With our happy adieus.
We need more immigrants who will embrace our way of life, we do not want our country torn apart with the tensions that most of Europe are subject to.

@Dee:
The meaning of Racism for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

You seem to be racist,are 'Australians' only 2 race groups?
By the way ,I never generalized all Australians I used 'Some' & 'People like that' .

I also used 'sweat shops' as an example of people not thinking about where some of their Goods come from.You were talking about immigrants and abot their dishes,foods,Well I'm saying its more than just recipes.

@D.B.
I don't speak for All immgrants ,I speak for myself.Infact, I don't really bother or let people who think like you get to me:).But sometimes, to "every action" "theres a Reaction". I have nothing against Australian cultures, Anglos or Indigenous ones and others.

When I first met an Australian man and his wife I thought they were from the United Kingdom.They were nice & polite to me.I even like some Aussie slangs.I also like chinese food,italian food,and American. I'm not a narrow minded person.

I just feel the need to speak sometimes,push away the negatives.

Hi to everybody...Do we Australians have/possess a culture ? I dunno, I would suspect not. What is this 'culture' anyway? Is it the appreciation of art, architecture? Or is it found by reading the classics, or speaking well...perhaps it's the ability to engage in a sensible discussion, dropping in a big word every now and then in order to demonstrate a substantial vocabulary? Perhaps it's to argue vociferously, to make a point, thus forcing your opponent to 'cower' into some manner of symbolic submission - lest he be heard? I don't really know. I do know however, that we Australians don't enjoy a particularly good reputation abroad, often brandad as loud, self-opinionated, boorish folk, who labour on incessantly, with our jingoistic opinions on all matters fundamental. Some of us regrettably, don't know how to behave. We think, in mixed company, to engage in some sort allegorical language and 'social swearing', is a mark of sophistry? I really don't think so. You see good folk, I'm sometimes ashamed, to admit that I'm an Australian, for fear that I may inculcate an image, in the mind of someone that I've just met, as being a bad mannered, rude, and uncultured individual.

Amel – do you actually read posts before you reply? Where did I say that Australians are ‘only 2 race groups’? You are generalizing when you say ‘people like you’ unless of course, you are so all-seeing and intelligent that you can judge people you have never met.

“When I first met an Australian man and his wife I thought they were from the United Kingdom”

Why? Because the wife was Chinese? Or because they were ‘polite’? You say that you thought they were British, obviously because polite Australians are so rare. That sounds racist to me.

O sung wu –“ I'm sometimes ashamed, to admit that I'm an Australian, for fear that I may inculcate an image, in the mind of someone that I've just met, as being a bad mannered, rude, and uncultured individual”

If you are ‘ashamed to admit’ that you are Australian, perhaps you would be happier living in some other country. And if you are truly afraid of being regarded as a ‘bad mannered, rude and uncultured individual’ because some Australians may behave in this fashion when overseas, then you are just as much a racist as Amel. I have observed the same behaviour in people from many countries and cultures – rude, pushy Hong Kong Chinese; vulgar foul-mouthed British; impolite, abrupt French people – but unlike you, I do not judge the the whole country by its tourists. If this is your opinion of Australians, I cant imagine the type of person you mix with.

And you people dare to label Australians as ‘racists’ – what a joke. Read your own words sometime.

Good evening to you Dee...
Wow, you sure put me back in my box, didn't you! What an absolutely brilliant word...racist...! Interesting, that when an individual cannot find a word or phrase that may fit, or better describe someone, they simply wheel out that tired old noun 'racist'! I feel a little chuffed, now that I've been officially 'tagged' or at the very least, included in an (Dee's?) inventory of, those of us that are ostensibly, socially challenged in some way. I believe I've finally made it...I've been outed as a racist! Wish I was sufficiently erudite, to possess such an insight into the soul of an individual. And, to be able to classify or categorise their 'type' by virtue of a simple paragraph or two of an opinion. Categorised to the 'DEE' scale of human dynamic.

o sung wu, you said: 'I do know however, that we Australians don't enjoy a particularly good reputation abroad..'

Go and get stuffed, as we say. (Too 'boorish' for you? - Too bad). Australia has one of the best reputations among the world's nations. I've met so many people from different countries over here in Europe who almost overwhemingly have a high regard for Australia and it's people. Britain 'sends' it's 'Barmy Army' to all corners of the globe, but does that mean that all British are like that? Japanese are generally very polite but I have met many who are not.

Quik quiz: Name one other nation that does not contain large numbers of 'loud, self-opinionated, boorish folk, who labour on incessantly, with jingoistic opinions on all matters fundamental'. You most certainly cannot, except perhaps for some small island nations in the Pacific.

You actually fear that you 'may inculcate an image, in the mind of someone that you've just met, as being a bad mannered, rude, and uncultured individual'? How ridiculous. That's just your own insecurity.

o sung wu, you wonder whether Australia has a culture and suspect that it does not. I think of culture in terms of the characteristic beliefs and ways of doing things of a particular society. Not "high culture", but simply "the way we do things here". In that sense, any group of people will have its culture.

Our culture - our way of doing things - is certainly derived from Britian: it is similar, but not identical, to the cultures of England, Scotland, Canada, New Zealand and so on. These cultures area all part of the British family, just as the cultures of Italy, Spain, Mexico and Brazil are all part of the Latin family. Similar in important ways, but not identical.

Yes, o sung wu, I agree that ‘racist’ is a tired old word that has been rendered meaningless. It is a word I usually don’t use, and it does not fit this scenario, but I don’t know what other term describes your judgment of Australians by a minority of loud-mouths. A few years ago, this would have been called ‘culture cringe’ – so if its ok by you, I will retract the word ‘racist’, which I agree is unsuitable, and substitute ‘culture-cringer’.

I responded to you more sharply than I meant, but I am very tired of hearing ‘the Iraq war/refugee policies/drunken louts/ take-your-pick, makes me ashamed to be Australian’.

If a person is so thin-skinned and disloyal that they are ashamed to be Australian, for any reason, I can only repeat my suggestion that this person would no doubt be happier in another country.

If you would like to witness ‘bad mannered, rude, and uncultured’ people, come to the eastern beach suburbs of Sydney sometime. You will hear the foulest language you have ever heard, and see the rudest and most inconsiderate people you have ever encountered. Those loutish Aussies again?

No, English and Irish backpackers.

'afternoon to you all...empirically, you've said it all Ev, with your..."go and get stuffed"...and ..."Too 'boorish' for you? Too bad"... As they say in law...res ipsa loquitur. Interestingly, I merely entered an opinion, and made an observation. I didn't attack an individual, nor was I rude. I guess it doesn't take much to encourage an intellectual pygmy, such as Ev to ooze from the sewers of life.
Thank you Ian, for you response, I take your point; apropos our (Australians') cultural heritage/s from the English, et al. I guess we've all got to have our origins from someplace. And dee, thank you for your abridged/modified comment too. Indeed, I'd leave Australia tomorrow, if I could find a reasonable democracy that'd have me. I'm so absolutely, totally dispirited with Australia, and all things Australian. I'm a war Vet., in receipt of a 100% Disability Pension, and a retired copper,(also on invalidity) after many many years service. Sure, they throw a bit of cash at us. (for which I'm very grateful) And they gave me half a dozen 'gongs' to wear on ANZAC day. Essentially though, they're just waiting for me and blokes like me, to die. Everything that I hold dear. Every principle, standard of behaviour, and honourable intent, that we, as Australians should embrace, is rapidly diminishing, and soon to disappear. To be replaced with more 'political correctness', multiculturism, which simply will not work. And yes dee, I've worked the patrols that take in the Sydney beaches. Our morally corrupt political leaders, and the academic arrogance. The list simply goes on and on and on...........

o sung woo:

I would be tempted to feel sorry for you, if you didn't obviously feel so sorry for yourself already - 'Essentially though, they're just waiting for me and blokes like me, to die.' No, you are paid those monies becaused you served your country.

'Go and get stuffed' is not a personal insult. You said you are a war veteran, well I ask you how many diggers would tell to 'go and get stuffed' when you speak about Australia in this way? Most I expect. I did not attack you personally, but you have called me an 'intellectual pygmy that has oozed from the sewers of life'. Because I use vernacular language sometimes, does that make you intellectually superior? I mentioned your insecurity, because that was simply an observation too, rather an being an 'attack'.

If you want to project your own self-pity onto the rest of your fellow citizens, that it is up to you of course. You may feel that society is crumbling around you, but it's the only one we've got. Which country would you prefer to live in? Is Australia really such a bad place to live? Does it really lack the 'culture' that you crave? If everyone else around you is really so deficient in 'culture', then teach them about it! Teach them about fine wine and playing the piano, about Tolstoy, about Impressionism in art.

If you are really a hero with medals then act like one. If you were brave enough to be a copper for a long time (obviously you were), then why are you being such a sook now?

o sung wu:

Do you see what I'm getting at? You would have, I'm sure, witnessed all manner of unsavoury goings-on during your time in the force. I accept it's quite possible that you may not have received adequate recognition for your efforts. For what it's worth, I'm not interested in hurting other people for pleasure, or for any other reason for that matter, and I apologise if it seems that I've tried to judge you too heavily.

I'm really sorry to hear that Australia feels like such an uncomfortable place for you. But there are a lot of terrible places on this planet and Australia (by comparison) is not one of them. Of course I've met many real bastards there too, but remember every country has them. However I do accept that it might feel like a terrible place for you. It is of course not up to me to tell you what opinion you should have.

Going back to what we were saying about culture - well the culture of a place is what you make it, to a large degree I reckon. It's the contribution of all a country's citizens, both good and bad. If you feel the culture is lacking in substance, or is 'backward', isn't there anything you can do personally to influence it a positive way?

I'm interested in your opinions, believe it or not.

There's a quote I remember from somewhere, something along the lines of: 'When a man stops dreaming, he stops being a man'.

In your previous posts it just sounded like you'd maybe given up a bit. I hope that's not the case.

Take it easy, alright?

O Sung Woo
yes, we do have a culture. The thing about 'culture' is that it is mostly unconscious. It's what determines how we act in life.

For some insights into our main (anglo saxon/emerging Aussie) cultural heritage, please read the poetry and prose of Henry Lawson and Banjo Patterson.
Classics are 'Geebung Polo Club', 'Man from Ironbark' (Hillarious) 'Man from snowy river'.

In 'The Geebung Polo Club' you can see the emergence of an independant Aussie spirit, contra the stiff upper lip Pommy attitude.

http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/P/PatersonAB_Banjo/verse/manfromsnowyriver/index.html

Contemporary Cultural practices.

You meet someone.... do you rub noses (Maori's), accept the offer to sleep with your hosts wife (Eskimos), or shake hands ? And..when you shake hands, do you make it vigorous, or very gentle and long lasting like the Asians often do, (which to us might seem very GAY !). Do you walk down the street hand in hand with your male friend, while both of you are heterosexual ? (Lots of Asians do this)

The place to identify 'culture' is:

a) Langauge
b) Social mores at rites of passage such as births, marraiges and deaths.
c) Religion etc.

...and so on.

AMEL, the tone of your last post was more friendly, I'd like to know more about your own background, where u come from etc, it might help me in understanding your point of view more, and also contribute to better mutual understanding.. care to fill me in ? :)

To all contributors. Please don't allow passionate opposition to deter you, or anger you. Give as good as u get, but temper it with reason, and all of us will benefit.

Warm regards to you all.

on sung wu - <I'd leave Australia tomorrow, if I could find a reasonable democracy ..>

I dont think you would enjoy living permanently under European-style Socialism; the US is a larger version of things you are complaining about; the UK, don’t even think about it. Australia, with all its faults, is still the best place to live. I understand what you say about diminishing standards, I feel the same way every day. The world I grew up in is gone, replaced by a world where old people are attacked in the street, women are disrespected and tracked down like animals to be raped or murdered, schoolteachers get jailed for sexual relationships with their students – the list *does* go on.

We are living through a time of great change, not all of it for the better.

Re culture: Ordinary Aussies have never been very ‘cultural’ – regrettable, but things could be different in years to come. Unless the education system continues on its merry way to producing yet more young people who are ignorant of the basics of our culture.

Hang in there – believe me, we are so lucky to be born in Australia.

Good afternoon to you all...I do enjoy Henry Lawson and others. I also enjoy Robbie Burns too, if I could understand him, a little better? Hero, sook, feel sorry for myself, intellectual superiority (hardly) and other 'tags' attached to moi, by some of you...I guess there is some legitimacy to all your observations. As I approach my allocated 'three score and ten', I realize, and in fact believe, that I'm no longer part of this society and feel significantly alienated from others, with whom I interact with daily. Often accused of harboring and cultivating a misanthropic position, I view with extreme cynicism, the actions of others. And, ever the copper, closely examine their true motive/s. I'm speaking from a macro perspective, rather then that which is within the microcosm of the family unit. I no longer believe or recognise that Australia is my country anymore. Therefore, I don't feel part of it. Nor that I'm ever heard. It would seem, prima facie, that the vocal minorities, have the loudest voice. And apparently, that voice IS heeded. I accept that there's many many good people out there. Regrettably, I've not had the privilege of meeting many of them.

I love these discussions.

They are always heated, because racism and religionism are always just beneath the surface. Always opinionated, because everybody believes that their view is incontrovertible. But ultimately pointless, because none of us can actually define "culture" in a way that everybody can agree upon. So we simply doodle around the edges, poking in our two cents worth, and taking the opportunity to insult people who we dislike in a manner that we wouldn't dare to their face. Great fun.

One sense of culture implies "being cultured" - i.e. understanding poetry, enjoying classical music, knowing which fork to use when eating Demie Langouste en Bellevue and so on - but that is clearly not the intention here.

What I guess we are looking for is a list of characteristics, habits, attitudes, likes and dislikes that we can lump together into some recognizable form and say "Yeah, that's an Aussie".

The real problem actually starts when if we actually are able to do this - which, as I have already implied, is an impossibility.

But if we do manage it, can I please ask, in all seriousness, what would we do with the information?

Heard during a discussion re religion on ABC AM 702 – 28/06/06:

Caller says:
A friend of mine had a daughter by a black American.
She became involved in an Aboriginal-dreaming group because she needed to know how to bring the daughter up ‘according to her culture.’
[Apparently, all “black’ peoples share the same culture]

Culture is actually about self-awareness, not about other people.

We "identify" with a culture when we recognize in it aspects of ourselves of which we, generally speaking, approve. This is why "Aussie culture" can mean different things to different people. The cockie in an outback pub will isolate a particular set of characteristics with which to identify - sons-of-the-earth, mateship, no-bludgers-here - while the chardonnay-sipping culture vulture in Melbourne will corner the market in more effete epithets about Australians being "original, colourful, fresh, young" and so on.

This is why there is such a broad spectrum of views of the "culture" of other countries. Again, it is guided more by our own point of view than any abstract notions - Americans are either brash or outgoing, Poms are either a nation of soccer hooligans or a bunch of stuck-up toffs etc. etc.

A line from the first Bridget Jones Diary movie sticks in my mind, where Bridget's mother muses "The Japanese. A cruel race", with the impact or import of this soundbite completely escaping her. It said far more about her character than it said about the Japanese. Which is, of course, the whole point of it being in the script in the first place.

o sung wu:
You said 'I accept that there's many many good people out there. Regrettably, I've not had the privilege of meeting many of them.'

Do you think this might be because you've spent a disproportionate amount of time dealing with the 'not so good' people over the years (ie. through your work with the police and correctional services)? My guess is that it could get a man down after a while, perhaps it could even cause a man to only start seeing the worst side of everything. However another guess of mine is that the sun still sheds a spectrum of colours across the sky every dawn and evening.

Pericles:
You said 'So we simply doodle around the edges, poking in our two cents worth, and taking the opportunity to insult people who we dislike in a manner that we wouldn't dare to their face. Great fun.'

Since you have chosen the title 'Pericles', allow me to play Zeno for a moment.
Presumably when you say 'our' and 'we' you meant 'my' and 'I'. I get no pleasure from insulting people. I would say that more significant is that in this anonymous written medium, mannerisms, tone and inflexions, etc. are lost. So the reader's mood and perspective has a much greater influence on what is written, than in spoken dialogue. So, statements are often misconstrued here, quite understandably. That sometimes leads to storms in teacups. Anyway, whatever, it may be sport for you ('Debating') but I am actually interested in the topics.

Horus:
It really amazes me how many mythological characters and deceased Greek heroes and leaders have materialised to participate in this forum. I feel privileged :D Anyway, that's a pretty bizarre story, although not totally surprising. You may have noticed many Aboriginal kids identifying strongly with black American 'gang culture'.

For everyone:
Here's a website you may or may not have seen, entitled 'Convict Creations' - all about 'Australian Culture'. Contains lots of interesting information and (often witty) articles:

About Australian Culture: http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/index.htm

@Ev,

Black American 'gang culture'. I thought the African-American Gullah folks ,of South Carolina were seen in the African-American community as one of the best aspect of African-American culture? Or even slavery,maybe I don't know.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/goldcres/cultural/africahome.html

http://www.sweetblackberry.com/aboutus.html

Amel,

I did not mean that Afro-American culture = gang culture, that`s for sure. However for me it seems a little surreal when I see Aboriginal kids walking around in an Australian outback town wearing Chicago Bulls gear, Nike, etc. and `colours` and listening to Ice Cube, etc. I would have thought they have more in common with Native Americans, but I guess Native Americans aren`t so `high-profile` (less exposure in popular media, etc.)..

Dear Ev
get ur plates of meat over here and become my trouble and strife ..don't worry girl, I play a straight bat... ere.. have a butchers hook at my credentials.
But don't want you to be my ball and chain, no way, now.. lets hit the frog and toad together and if anyone gives us a hard time, we'll give em the big A. Well trot off till we're passed the black stump and set up our humpy. We only want dinky dye cobbers, not the type of drongo to have a barney.

Hehe.. I read that site.. quite good.

And you highlighted some very important points.

Pericles, true what you said, about the culture existing in the mind of individuals, but it goes further. After a time of exposure to a particular environment, pressures, ethnic and linguistic flavor, there will still emerge a 'prevailing/predominant' cultural texture.

And to me that is precious, and worth preserving. After all, it is our reference point for self understanding. To undermine that, is tantamount to undermining a nation.

@Ev

You have missed out on the Britney Spears,Emienem ,Paris Hilton,Rock music and others, of the 'American popular culture' and their influnces. Even white Australian culture and other aspects.You seem to know more about Natives,white and Indigenous & who relates more to who.

Amel,

No, I haven`t forgotten those other influences (on everyone). The original comment I was responding to was this (see post by Horus above):

"Heard during a discussion re religion on ABC AM 702 &#8211; 28/06/06:

Caller says:
A friend of mine had a daughter by a black American.
She became involved in an Aboriginal-dreaming group because she needed to know how to bring the daughter up &#8216;according to her culture.&#8217;
[Apparently, all 'black&#8217; peoples share the same culture]"

..........

I'll tell you a story. Six years ago during the Sydney Olympics, representatives from Aboriginal tribes all over the Australia travelled to Sydney to set up a protest camp. They were not allowed to do it anywhere near the Olympic Stadium, so instead they chose Victoria Park, next to Sydney University, not far from the city centre.
For over 3 entire months they camped in this public park, keeping a Ceremonial Fire going night and day. It was a very important endeavour for them. For 3 months they kept the camp in good order. Alcohol was not permitted. Rubbish of any kind was not allowed to be thrown into the ceremonial fire. When a decision had to be made about something, they all sat around this fire, and each person had the absolute right to say what they wanted without being interrupted. At least one Elder was present make final decisions after taking everyone's view into account. It was very civilized!
On the city side of the fire they had 2 Australian Aboriginal flags on an X-shaped flagpole. During the Olympics they received many visitors. Some were representatives from the Mohawk Indian tribe (US/Canada). As a gesture of friendship, they swapped flags, so from then on the flagpole displayed an Aboriginal flag on one side and the Mohawk flag on the other.

@Ev
You got that the Native Americans& Aboriginals should have more in common ,because of the ceremonies and protesting both communities share at the olympics, in reply to Horus's comment, correct? I get what you're saying.
I would have thought maybe the Maori or Indigenous people in the Australia-Asia region would share more in common with each other,rather than the Native American or Canadians from the other side of the world in America and Canada. Its probally because Native Americans are from huge Popular United States ,and maybe their more expose than other regional people. Or maybe it something more than just that. You seem to know about the 2 stories/history etc.

As for African-Americans, they would have more in common with Africans.

Will Smith owns a house in Capetown South Africa. :)

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=9&click_id=99&art_id=qw1015225744341C432

Oprah Winfrey is building a world class all girls school in South Africa, to improve the position of women in Africa.Not just African American celebs but regular people too. Many African Americans make
the pilgrimage to Goree Island in Senegal every year .

http://unjobs.org/video/1106921284.15

Hi, to both of you, dee and Ev, and of course, all the other contributers.
I feel that I'm well and truely out of my depth, intellectually speaking. When I see the reasoning and logic expressed by some of you good people!
Ev you said that my views may've be coloured, as a result of the kind of people that I was required to work with. Probably correct. However, some of these 'crooks' had more honour, character, and ethical standards, than most of our more notable community leaders, believe it or not! I've learnt much, from some of them (not how to blow a safe though!).

And dee, I've lived and worked in the UK (a working holiday, for nine months) admittedly many years ago, just after my discharge from the Army. Something I do remember very well, was from a speech given by an erudite Member of the Commons, Mr. Enoch Powell. He warned all and sundry, that if immigration was not checked, and those applicants seeking entry to the UK, were not carefully screened - then..."the streets and rivers will run red with blood, and the 'englishman' will be dispossessed from his own country"...or words to that effect. Of course, Powell was branded a racist, a redneck, etc etc etc...ad nauseam. I think we all know what happened.

Amel,
I can see logic in Ev’s comparison of the situation of Aboriginal peoples in Australia with First Nations people in Canada: both are small minorities in British-based societies, which must put them in a similar position. The Maori are a far larger minority in NZ, and the other indigenous peoples of our region are not living within a predominantly British culture.

o sung wu,
It is a pity that Enoch Powell and others like him were not able to separate their valid reasoning from the absurdity of racism. We should think about the issue in terms of cultural difference instead of “race”.

It is ridiculous to pretend that culture – or indeed any behaviour – is genetically linked to “race”. I think it is quite clear that people of any genetic background are likely to absorb the predominant culture of the place where they are growing up. The problem comes when immigration occurs at such a rate or in such a way that ghettos arise. Then, young people will find themselves growing up, not in the culture of their country, but in the culture of their ghetto: a version of the culture of their parents’ or grandparents’ former country. In this situation, assimilation does not take place as it should.

Once that happens, you have groups of people who are legally part of the host country but not socially or psychologically part of it. We cannot force anyone to abandon their culture in all its details – that is not what assimilation means and it would not be desirable in any way –, but we should do whatever we can to manage immigration so that we do not have ethnic ghettos. The streets need never “run with blood” because, if immigration is correctly managed, all children growing up in Australia will grow up as Australians.

Assimilation is not about denying cultural diversity, it is about ensuring that the core values of our society – the things that make Australia an attractive place to migrate to – are passed on to every child who grows up here.

Dear Ian

the way you expressed the 'management' of Immigration was superb, because you linked it to a natural assimilation rather than a forced.

I've been harping on this for ages, but the 'usual suspects' will trot out their 'racist/xenophobic' chants, not that it worries me.

I'm encouraged to see common sense views being expressed by others such as yourself also.

Andrew Bolt, while not everyone's cuppa, did make some very valid points very recently, where he pointed out that there is something seriously wrong when a crowd of 'Australians' who calle themselves "Italian-Australians" (rather than 'Australians of Italian background) cheer when Italy beats Australia.

QUOTES:

Norton St Sydney, mostly Italian background.

"when the ball fizzed past Mark Schwarzer's despairing glove?

As many as 8000 people, many in Italy's blue shirts, screamed, clapped, sang, danced, lit flares, honked car horns and set off fireworks."

even here, in Lygon St, hundreds of "Italian-Australians" celebrated Italy's win with cries of "Viva Italia". Police on horseback struggled to keep dozens of the more aggressive away from belligerent Socceroos fans chanting "Bulls---".

We've seen similar scenes in earlier games. Thousands of "Greek-Australians" -- many too young to be immigrants -- noisily cheered Greece in its friendly against Australia at the MCG this year, and a handful kicked cars and smashed windows when the Socceroos won.

CONCLUSION: I have no hesitation in insisting the 'national loyalty' is a value we impart at the educational level. Otherwise, we are being white-anted to a degree that in any future defense of this country, alleigances may be suspect. When Italians in Lygon street are AGGRESSIVE toward Socceroo fans, we have a serious problem.

Ian
Excellent post -you make some good points.

All,
There is another dimension, and I wonder how people feel about it?
The idea that children can only be adapted out to parents who share the same cultural background.Hence you have children of Aboriginal descent (in many cases mixed) being placed with Aboriginal parents-so they ‘keep their culture'.

It seems akin to the idea prevalent in places like Malaysia that all children are innately "Islamic".

But I’d be interested to hear what people think.

Adopted (not adapted) apologies.
and it might be an idea to add "foster" in front of parents (damn!)

Horus,

It seems to me that the kind of thinking you refer to is based on the idea that children are better off if they grow up in a culture held by people who look more or less like them. I'm not sure to what extent that is true. A child does not have a culture when it is born.

On a lighter note, I find it amusing that anyone could think that children are innately "Islamic". Given that "Islam" means "submission", that would suggest that all children are innately submissive, and my experience tells me otherwise!

Hi there Ian...
Thank you for your comments apropos Enoch Powell MP. An interesting distinction, culture v race? Your words and thoughts are most enlightening, as I always relish discussion of an issue, that is argued purely from an academic position. However, to my simple reasoning, there is absolutely no delineation between culture and race, when argued from a social behaviour (public order) point of view. Grab yourself a blue suit, and undertake a 2300-0700 shift at the Bankstown patrol,on any night of the week, and see how well these individuals assimilate, into our good 'ol 'Aussie' culture. It should be noted herein, that most of these gentle misunderstood folk, were born here. But most unequivocally pursue, a hardline Lebanonese culture. With respect Ian, this issue will never be solved or a solution advanced, if we continue to attempt to accommodate the difficulties, purely from an academic perspective.

Hi, o sung wu,
I think we are looking at the same issue from different directions. From my more 'academic' perspective, I was attempting to answer the question "How can we manage immigration in the future so as to avoid creating further ghetto problems?" From your very pragmatic '2300-0700 shift' perspective, I think your question is closer to "How can we deal with the ghetto problems that poorly managed immigration has already created?"

I think we need to look at the two things at the same time. If a certain anti-social behaviour is related to elements from a specific ethnic community, then we should not be afraid to say so. On the other hand, we should also be wary of linking such behaviour to that ethnic group as a whole: that would surely make assimilation more difficult.

Assimilation certainly seems to have failed in certain cases, but that does not mean that it is impossible. The fact that some people from a given ethnic group have failed to assimilated in the past does not mean that others from that same ethnic group could not assimilate in the future.

I confess that I have no practical experience of how to deal with the problems that we already have, so I will have to leave that to those, such as yourself, who know what they are talking about.

Good evening to you Ian...
Thank you for your excellent response to my little piece. You're probably right in your general summation with respect to proper assimilation - thus avoiding another 'ghetto' situation, as evidenced in Bankstown and environs. Though, I'm not so sure Ian. I now think it's a little late. This 'tribalism' label, often used to illustrate these ethnic enclaves, is so entrenched in our society, that perhaps it's here to stay, indefinitely. There are so many areas now existing in Sydney, that are considered to be 'no-go' situations. Further,I'm of the view that the prospect of broad assimilation, as you have quite rightly suggested, is no longer a reality. I acknowledge, our political leaders would no doubt, vehemently deny that these enclaves even exist. Sadly Ian, they do, and I reckon they're burgeoning and proliferating exponentially. To me, multiculturalism has essentially failed. I really don't know why. Maybe too much too soon? Introducing reasonably tough legislation, 'forcing' folk to accommodate the vagaries of this alien behaviour and culture, might go some way to explaining the resistance from certain sections of the Aussie rank an' file?

Aka "Nothing like a little bit of "race" discussion to evoke posts" is spot on. Perhaps no-one's noticed but the article never mentions it. Perhaps the author understands THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS RACE.

The differences between peoples are cultural, immensely more consequential than physical. There are more differences amongst indiginous populations than between them