No, the end result is simply is he detained or not.

The key question is why of the 1,250,000 Taliban one man is being tried and that man happens to be Australian. THe remaining 1,249,999 Taliban have all been released by the current Afghani government. Why is one Australian being treated any differently.

The legal status of "unlawful combatants", has been the subject of criticism by international human rights institutions; including Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

In response to the US-led military campaign in Afghanistan, a legal advisor at the Legal Division of the ICRC, published a paper on the subject (which reflects the views of the author alone and not necessarily those of the ICRC), in which it states:

Whereas the terms "combatant" "prisoner of war" and "civilian" are generally used and defined in the treaties of international humanitarian law, the terms "unlawful combatant", "unprivileged combatants/belligerents" do not appear in them. They have, however, been frequently used at least since the beginning of the last century in legal literature, military manuals and case law. The connotations given to these terms and their consequences for the applicable protection regime are not always very clear.
Human Rights Watch have pointed out that in a judgement, the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia interpreted the International Committee of the Red Cross, Commentary: IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Geneva: 1958) to mean that:

There is no gap between the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions. If an individual is not entitled to the protection of the Third Convention as a prisoner of war ... he or she necessarily falls within the ambit of [the Fourth Convention], provided that its article 4 requirements [defining a protected person] are satisfied.

The implication is that the status of unlawful combatant does not exist, as a person is either a combatant, or a civilian. If found to be civilian, then they may have committed some criminal acts, for which they can be punished under criminal law, that if committed by a combatant would not be illegal under the laws of war.

The introduction of the unlawful combatant status sets a dangerous precedent. When the government of Liberia detained American activist Hassan Bility in 2002, Liberian authorities dismissed the complaints of the United States, responding that he had been detained as an unlawful combatant.

Remember the Alamo!

What the American's are saying is that Daniel Boon and the other "irregulars" were also Non-Lawfal Combatants. Peter Lalor might also have something to say on the matter. Wouldn't the French Foreign Legion also have some difficulties with Non-Lawfullness.

Thank you, Neil James for taking the time to write such an enlightening article. The problem for most of the "bleeding heart" lawyers and others who comment on David Hicks is that they basically seem to start from the perspective that anything involving the US Government is "Bad" and that any matter on which the Australian Government and the US Government agree upon means that the Australian Government must also be "Bad".

Neil James's article is far more balanced and demonstrates that the whole David Hicks matter is complex. For Australians such as I (I suspect the vast majority of Australians) the matter is far more straightforward. David Hicks took up arms with the Taliban and given the opportunity would have fired on Coalition Troops whether they be American or Australian. For this reason I have no time at all for David Hicks, but do hope that the matter can be brought before a US Military Commission as soon as possible.

Sniggid,

The holding of David Hicks is a complex issue, but no action committed by Hicks or the other 300(?) or so "Detainees" in legal limbo can be justified.

The US Government knows that they are on dubious ground. They have suspended Hick's right of Habeas Corpus and have denied him the POW status. US Citizens in the same position were released because the US Constitution guaranteed them Habeas Corpus. British citizens were released because the UK Government demanded that Habeas Corpus was applied. Our Government chooses to ignore the Civil and Political Rights of this individual. Afghan citizens were released because they were just defending their sovereign nation from a hostile invader (just as Texan's would if Mexico were to invade).

The act of holding these people outside of any real legal juristiction, ignoring the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights, and the unprovoked attack on Afghanistan makes both the US and the Australian Governments just as "Evil" as the people that took up arms to defend Afghanistan from an aggressor.

This is an interesting article.

If the problem really is one of properly defining Hicks' legal status and then applying the laws appropriate to that status, then I could probably (reluctantly) accept some form of detention for him, but only if it could be demonstrated that this was absolutely necessary.

However nothing, nothing at all, can justify to me the conditions in which prisoners seem to be kept at Guantanamo Bay. Nothing can justify the reluctance of the USA to allow proper international scrutiny of that facility. Even if he were a convicted criminal of the worst sort, I would expect him to be imprisoned in a humane manner, in a facility available for inspection.

Whatever he has done, whatever he intended to do, I find myself thinking that four years in Guantanamo Bay is punishment enough.

There's a significant absence of the word "alleged" in this article - much like the rumours of "alleged" torture of prisoners at Guantanamo.

At least the British (eventually) had the guts to stand up the the USA for their own citizens.

You can see the strength of the charges against some detainees at this link - http://www.reprieve.org.uk/casework.htm#guantanamo

I have respect for Neil James' organisation because it has tried hard to avoid the traditional trap for defence-related associations of becoming a slavish cheer squad for right-of-centre politcians and governments.

But I can't agree with this column. Neil loses sight of the wood and sees only legalist trees in his analysis.

Where do we start in this kind of debate? I think we start with the value of what we are defending. If it is valueless, then its defence may even be a mistake. In fact we are defending a liberal democratic system, far from perfect but still superior to the alternatives, against a mix of religious fanatics, corrupt authoritarian regimes and bigots who hate everything about the west. This is indeed worth defending.

Next: how do we defend it? Within the spirit of the laws of armed conflict, certainly, but more than that, within the spirit of our core values. The key point is: if we use the methods of authoritarianism to defend liberal democracy, we are already defeated.

One key core value we have is that no-one should be deprived of liberty except by due legal process, and that that process places the burden of proof on the accusers. Others are the right of cross-examination, an open court, impartial judges and a jury.

Hicks has had little of this. He has spent years in foreign detention. The "military tribunal" set up to try him meets few of the requirements of a real court of law. The key admission is that he cannot be tried under Australian law because he has done nothing to violate the law as it was when he was detained. And the US refuses to bring him before one of its regular courts.

Hicks is entitled to either: (a) a proper trial in a proper court on proper charges or (b) release and compensation for years of wrongful detention.

I don't much like Hicks, but Neil needs to remember: it's easy to grant democratic rights to those you like. The essence of democracy, tho, lies in granting them to those you don't.

Trying to survey Hick's mentality through camera shots, he could almost be classed as a slow learner who may have simply joined the Taliban not as a freedom fighter, but as one looking for an idiotic change or escape might have joined the French Foreign Legion.

Anyhow as far as breaking laws are concerned, while Hicks has only broken one, America since 9/11 has broken possibly half a dozen, the illegal attack on Iraq being the most blatant, another for locking up most of the Guantomo inmates for so long without trial.

So under normal Justice Court rules it should be a case of Case Diss-missed.

A study in semantics.

What's so complicated about "is he guilty or is he not?" That's what the legal system exists for and to deny him access to it is indefensible.

Try him for heaven's sake. Then we can talk about it.

Can I ask the obvious question here?

What on Earth was he doing fighting with the Taliban anyway?

Hes certainly not your average Ausie now is he?
A trial would be handy.
Just to keep the do gooders quite if nothing else.
I personally dont have much time for somebody who goes to that extream which is so different to our custom.

He would have been fighting our soldiers if he were still kicking around with the crew he was running with.
However yep he should be put in court and then forgotton about.
With any luck he may have at least served as a warning to other so called young Australians that we do keep an eye out.

Just in case anybody else is looking for a new freedom and training.
If your not feeling free in Australia you never will.
I personally think he was a aggesive trouble maker who found the excitment he was looking for.

He studdied Islam and told his father he was off to fight for the taliban.
What more proof do you need.

Some people just like fighting and killing, like people who hunt animals and then call it sport.

Either way they are cold blooded killers who do go out of their way to kill because they enjoy it.

Hope the tax payers of Australia are not paying his legal bill.

Hicks is an Australian, so how about a simple Australian solution?

Put him up before a kangaroo court, with Judge Lynch presiding.

Those who wish to dignify the taliban with any label other than terrorist should be aware that glorifying terrorism is an offence under the new sedition legislation. Terrorists, particularly suicide bombers, have no rights whatsoever, have no recognition under the Geneva Convention, and may be shot out of hand. The religious war between Islam and the West can be compared to the struggle against Japan during World War II, which was a war of extermination. Anyone who has read about the fight along the Kokoda Track will know about it in detail.

What with the end of the age of cheap oil, the population explosion, global warming, and the struggle bewteen Islam and the West, which could easily expand into a general north-south conflict, it looks like being an interesting century.

I think you’re on the money in the first part of your post, bushbred. I’d say Hicks jnr spent plenty of time in his bedroom reading some magazine like Soldier of Fortune with the pages stuck together. He probably fantasised about being a war hero.

I think that Hinks jnr is on the horns of a dilemma which is not made any easier by the phalanx of ambulance chasers who sense the chance to enhance their profile.

The various branches of the armed services have been dispensing military justice for many years without causing loss of sleep for some in the legal club. If all matters arising out of armed conflict end up in civilian court, Slobodan Milosevic and Nikolai Ceaucescu and Pol Pot, to name just three, seem to have fallen through the net.

Could it work the other way? If some slob is on a charge of rape and doesn’t like his chances in a civilian court can he ask to be tried by the military? Would our friends in the legal club push his cause

Hicks was kidnapped by the Northern alliance and sold to the US as he was leaving Afghanistan. I have met and talked to his US and Adelaide lawyers and the only thing he has been charged with is guarding a tank. If he guarded a tank in Australia he would be called a soldier and paid for it. The notion that he is a terrorist for this "crime" is deranged and Neil James is not a lawyer, has not spoken to the lawyers and probably has not spent one moment with David's wonderful father like I have.

Now let's get to why Howard and co allow Hicks to be held without proper charges facing a court with no legal basis.

It's because habeas corpus has been suspended in Australia for any poor devil who gets into the clutches of our own immigration department - like the new 26 that have just been found out about, Australian citizens that is.

The architect for the total destruction of habeas corpus and destruction of the rule of law for some small groups in Australia was engineered of course by Ruddock who even argued in the High Court that locking up children for the whole of their lives without charge was fine. Ruddock hates habeas corpus.

That is why Hicks rots, not because of the tripe spouted by Neil James.

M you really are! too much. Hicks was detained and was suspected of having links and training with the enermy.

The people who detained him were working with us.

I say good job.

As you say he was guarding a tank but for the other team, and thats ok with you is it.?
I mean we should welcome the little prick back into this country with open arms.

At the risk of repeating myself his own father acknowledges he left to fight for Islam.

You always involve yourself personally in these things and you always hate me for being honest but M I have to say it.
Why would his lawyer seek someone on welfare to talk to about his client for goodness sake?

At this stage I am asking the question.
Are we the tax payer paying again? are we?
I would really appreciate an answer.

For the record Ruddocks done a good job and most people voted the Government back in for that reason.[ More is the pity]

For god sake find some loyalty to your own country and the people of Australia who write your cheques. Surley You can find more worthy people to help such as the aboriginal people of our country, or the blind aged etc.
No not you your all for letting any body in this country.

You are just like them. They come here take our welfare and bag us.
Yes they do!.

What you are doing over and over again with your Anti Australian attitude is no different only that you have been here a bit longer.
This support my case that they are all the same no long how long they have been here.
I am sick to death of people winging because we are working to keep this country safe.

The Government has been advised that based on available evidence, no prosecution is available against Mr Hicks in Australia at this time. Making that decision is more complicated than simply identifying a criminal offence which may possibly have been contravened by a person’s actions. The decision-maker must also take into account the likelihood of success, referring to factors such as available defences, the facts in question and the rules of evidence as they apply in Australian criminal law.
The Australian Federal Police considered offences existing in 2001, including offences set out in the Geneva Conventions Act 1957 and the Crimes (Foreign Incursions and Recruitment) Act 1978. As a result of their examinations, the Australian Federal Police asked the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions to consider all available evidence regarding Mr Hicks’ alleged involvement with the Kosovo Liberation Army, Lashka-e Taiba and al-Qa’ida/Taliban forces. After considering the available evidence, the facts in question, the rules of evidence and available defences, the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions advised that prosecution was not available.

David Hicks has broken no Australian law, was kidnapped by US forces and transported to Cuba. If any fair thinking person thinks this is acceptable I suggest they re examine the facts.

That's the whole point Stephen. Because he was breaking no existing Australian Law at the time he cannot be tried in Australia. So he needs to be tried in the US through the Military Court process.

Putting impediments to that only prolongs the whole business. It is time to stop all the endless appeal nonsense and allow the Military Court process to proceed and for David to know his fate.

The whole point is that Hicks should be released immediately.

The "Star Chamber" set up by the US executive is illegal and the US judiciary will rule that The President overstepped his authority.

Hicks will be released and Guantanamo closed.

Just another mess Ruddock will have to dig himself out of.

Wendy I truly hope you are not "mainstream Australia" because if those are the views of mainstream Australia I think we are all in a great deal of trouble.

The world is not so simple that it can be divided into "us" and "them". It seems to me that your argument comes down to the notion that Hicks was one of "us" who left to fight for Islam which makes him one of "them", and he was ready to fight "us" which means we can jail him in inhumane conditions without charge or trial. This is not like footy, where all you need to know is which team you love and which team you hate.

Bushbred, you and I have been on opposite sides before, but this time you are right on the money mate. Hicks seems to me to have been a deluded character, none too bright, who read one too many commando comics, sneaked in to see Platoon and Full Metal Jacket, was probably the first kid in his class to finish every level of Doom, and he wanted to find out what war was like. Prime recruitment material for an organisation like the Taliban, who fill his head with a bunch of mumbo jumbo, put a gun in his hands and park him somewhere as one of the "expendables".

Sure, he was an idiot. And sure, he was preparing to fight in a war. And sure, he would have been on the wrong team. What all of this tells me is that he should be tried and if found guilty punished. But he should NOT be left to languish in Guantanamo for four years while US lawyers argue about his legal "status".

Bring him home, charge him with treason, and jail him. Fair enough. But do it properly - with due process in front of a proper court. Proper Australian justice, not the shallow and reprehensible shadow of justice which the US has now been shown to have.

Anth

I forgot to mention of course that Hicks was with the Taliban when they were the allies of the US being wooed to build an oil pipeline through Afghanistan. How is it treason to be on the same side? And of course at the time we were not invading Afghanistan.

Wendy is only winding me up - her extremism is worse than her bite really. Three men hanged and killed themselves overnight in this hell hole called Gitmo Bay. 13 people have died in immigration detention in Australia, most of them killed themselves.

Hicks hasn't done anything wrong under any law in the world but his detention certainly has broken every law of detention in the world.

The bigotries that stand in Australia today by the few are strange really considering they have all been proven to be untrue.

TAMPA was hijacked, the kids were thrown overboard, SIEVX sank outside our waters, the Bakhtiyari family were from Pakistan, Iraq had WMD, Guantanamo Bay is humane, Woomera was decent and caring.

None of these things were ever true yet some cling to the hate they generated in the telling of the fairly tales.

Time to reexamine I think.

It's not so complex. If Hicks has done something that violates law, prove it in an open court. The only other option is that he has not, it cannot be proven, and he is a political prisoner.

What a load of nonsense, the fact that he is innocent under Australian law , US civil law and the Geneva conventions means that he should be released.

We'll extraditing citizens to Saudi next for eating pork chops.

I think Anth's last post and the first paragraph of Marilyn's last post demonstrates simple-mindedness of the extremists on this thread.

The fact that he has now been detained for so many years without a trial pretty much makes whatever he may have been willing to do irrelevant.

Bushbred made a good point about Hicks' low intellect too. Which I think may be a partial answer to YngNLuvnIt's question. But I really don't know why he was there and I'm not that sure a simple person like Hicks even knew either.

Yes Anth, we certainly are in a lot of trouble if too many people in the world think like Wendy. I just hope that if the Hicks situation starts the ball rolling for much further breaches of human rights then it's the people who share her extreme views who are the first victims of it. A very harsh thing to say but it's only fair.

I have lot more to say on this issue but I'd only be repeating others on this thread. So Agreed, agreed, agreed to anyone who could see beyond the simple "Us and Them" mentality.

Wendy,

It's not so much about caring about one particular idiot as it is about defending Human Rights, which is the bigger picture and the fundamental issue of this whole situation.

But you seem very patriotic. So how about you use that patriotism for defending Human Rights rather than falling for the scare tactics of the current western governments, who, along with many corporations, have everything to gain from your fear of those boogy-man terrorists?

Dear Mr Mann

I'll continue to support Western Governments' efforts to keep us safe from Terrorists so that you can continue to rant about so called Human Rights issues.

How much does it cost the taxpayer to monitor the other infamous Taliban supporter Habib and see that he doesn’t gather or try and incite a bunch of screwed up fanatics somewhere. Do we have to also monitor Hicks when he is released, and is he likely to practice his doctrine or what ever took him to Afghanistan? The lawyers love him where he is as he has provided them with what looks like another lawyer-fest but who is to be responsible for him once he is out.

Black is indeed white.
Neil James begins:
"First, was he a combatant in an armed conflict? The evidence overwhelmingly points to the answer being "Yes" . . ."
It begs the question of: Why has not Hicks been found gulity more than three years ago?

Neil James continues . . .
"Second, if he was a combatant . . ."
Why use the word "if" as the first sentence says there is overwhelming evidence not to use the word "if".

Anth. Yep we are in trouble all right you finally worked that out did you? I did say the Prick should be put before the courts so please dont mis quote me.

M but your too kind to me. He wouldnt give a second thought about you I can assure you.
I am sure the prison is terrible. I am just as sure all prisons are terrible places even the ones here in Australia. Then again they are supposed to be. Thats when you have no rights when your in goal.

As for torture I cant think of a better way of getting information that might save my neigbours and family. I might add we dont chop people heads off like some ! I would love to get my hands of that Coward larden who killed all those people in the world trade center. What a pathetic creep. I would personally torture that idiot.
Ah now there is your first clue. Man Kind.
So until man learns to act with kindness to all this horrible world will continue.In the mean time an eye for a countries eyes. The only way to stop these lunatics is to fight them on their own turf that is unless u want to sit back and do nothing u pathetic lot then cry to Howard nobody protected your family.

Just get it through your head they HATE the West and they hATE us. This includes you! too and your family.
Its not ! just a few extream ones its most of them. They are taught in school and home to fight and hate the West.
Its well bred into them.Again yes give him a trial but in the USA . If hes found innocent then send him back where they found him but dont bring the Prick back here to live off the tax payer because hes not welcome!

Mean time God bless those men women and animals who went to wars in other countries to protect our way of free life.

David Hicks was not one of them.
Lets we forget.

I believe that I have finally worked out what the understanding gap is between the protagonists in this discussion. The gap is caused because those on the left are internationalists. However the problem that the internationalists have is that the people of the various nation states around the world have never delegated any of their powers to any international organisation, and there is no prospect that they ever will. As a result, international law is a joke, depending entirely on national law for its implementation. There is no world government, there is no world army, and there is no world court (except for one where the nation states are free to decide whether or not they will abide by its ruling). The internationalists cannot accept that public areas in Australia are the collective private property of Australian citizens, and aliens have no rights at all, except those that the Australian people, through their parliament, are pleased to grant them. True, we have entered in to treaties on these subjects, but we retain the right to abrogate these treaties at any time if it should suit us. These feelings of nationalism are deeply ingrained, and are the product of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, so they will not change any millenium soon. The only time I can see when the people of the world will be united is when we are all fighting the Martians.


The reality that has to be accepted is that the economic insecurity of modern life, coupled with the war between the West and Islam, is causing a massive resurgence of christianity and nationalism around the West which has left the internationalists bewildered.

The second reality is that the General Assembly of the United Nations, where the people of India have the same voting power as the people of Nauru, must be one of the least democratic organisations ever invented.

So ‘the only thing he [Hicks] has been charged with is guarding a tank’. Where was he guarding the tank, and for whom? If the tank had been attacked by Alliance soldiers, would Hicks have opened fire on them? According to his letters home, parts of which were read out by his father, Hicks says that his training in Pakistan and Afghanistan is designed to ensure "the Western-Jewish domination is finished, so we live under Muslim law again". He denounces the plots of ‘the Jews’ to divide Muslims and turn them against Osama bin Laden. He also warns his father to ignore "the Jews' propaganda war machine."

In November 2005, Four Corners broadcast a transcript of an interview with Hicks, conducted by the AFP in 2002. Hicks acknowledged that he had trained with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, learning guerilla tactics and urban warfare. He also acknowledged that he had met Osama bin Laden.

Four Corners confirmed, that in Guantanamo, Hicks signed a statement written by American military investigators that includes the following, "I believe that al-Qaeda camps provided a great opportunity for Muslims like myself from all over the world to train for military operations and jihad. I knew after six months that I was receiving training from al-Qaeda, who had declared war on numerous countries and peoples."

And in August 2000: "If I do meet fate this is called martyrdom . . . the highest position in heaven is to go fighting in the way of God against the friends of Satan."

Has Hicks changed those beliefs, as he changed his name back from Muhammed Dawood? According to a former Guantanamo Bay inmate, Hicks passes the time by catching mice and hanging them. Guess that's why he needed all that ‘urban guerilla’ training.

Dee, Hicks guarded a tank - the coalition of the killing has now murdered over 100,000 innocent Iraqis - hmmm.....wonder what the real crime is.

Having a thought that is revolting is not a crime you know.

Anyway, Australia locked up over 4,000 men, women and kids who had escaped the Taliban so who committed the crime? Someone who never fired anything in his life or the coalition of the killing?

Get some sense of perspective for heaven's sake.

Trevor Flugge and the AWB did worse carrying guns and money around Iraq and giving $300 million to Saddam surely.

Hicks says he's a UK citizen and he has been granted such citizenship. The Australian government need no longer be involved.

Wendy,

The point is not whether we agree with Hick's moral choices it is whether or not he has broken any laws. He hasn't, even Howard says so.

Politicians make laws that, presumably, reflect the moral values of the electorate. We have to live by it.

They can't go around making retroactive laws that punish past actions that were then legal. Imagine if we got an extreme green government who would fine everyone whose car had ever emitted polutants or an extreme Christian government that installed biblical law, just who would smite all the pork eaters and adulterers. It just isn't practical and it is ethically wrong.

So what if they hate us and the west. Should we hate them back? Surely that would just start an endless cycle of violence. We should either persuade them to the attractions of Western values. (Consumerism is a very powerful force provided everyone has some money to partake in it.) Or leave them alone to sort out their own mess. (unlikely as all the oil is in the middle east)

Terrorism works by provoking a disproportionate response, which in turn creates a wave of nationalism and hatred of the west. ie In response to the terrorists knocking down the WTC and Pentagon, we have taken out two countries and exposed ourself to the mess in Iraq. Every day the occupation continues the government looses credibility not just in the middle east but also at home. This plays straight into ObL's hands. We now have muslims hating the west and westerners being suspicous of everthing muslim.

The better approach would have been to root out AlQaida in Afghanistan. Operations in Iraq cost 1 billion dollars a day. Just a fraction of that money would have surely have captured bin Laden and been sufficient to rebuild Afghanistan.

Oh M.

The Dick was guarding the wrong tank!.

Thats the crime.

We do unto others before they can do to us.

Its called sercurity.

The poms can have him

Funny how when a group of Christians were arrested in Afghanistan just before the war for illegally trying to convert Muslims, there was a constant stream of Government representatives pleading their case and petitioning the Taliban.

These people were formally charged with blatantly and knowingly breaking the laws of a foreign country yet were given ample Government assistance.

Yet when another citizen is illegally detained - without charge - by the USA, we ask no questions and abandon him as a sort of token propaganda trophy to justify the war and curry favour in the lead-up to the Free Trade Agreement payoff.

Meanwhile we were paying back-handers to Iraq to secure wheat sales and taking the high moral ground.

Since then there have been government appeals to South-East Asian countries against the death penalty for convicted drug smugglers.

I wonder what Lindy Chamberlain thinks about this?

"Lets we forget."

A freudian typo, Wendy?

Frankly I find your attempt to "claim" the spirit of Anzac (thus I interpret your ill-spelt attempt to use the words "Lest we forget") offensive. I wonder what those who suffered and perished as prisoners of the Japanese would really say about the treatment which is being meted out to Hicks? I know that the suffering of those WWII prisoners was far, far worse than what is going on in Guantanamo. But the lesson I always learned from that bit of history, and from the diaries of Weary Dunlop which I have read and cherished, is that when we take prisoners on the battlefield, we treat them fairly and with dignity.

The simple lesson of the WWII POW experience was that the conditions of the prison say more about the jailers than about the prisoners.

The conditions at Guantanamo, I am afraid, say terrible things about the USA and about Australia as its ally.

I want to put one test to the people who support Hicks continued detention:

If a North Korean defected to Australia, and during some conflict was taken prisoner and treated, by the North Koreans, in the same way Hicks is being treated now, would we be OK with that?

Oh, and Wendy ... why are you the only one who needs to use constant expletives? They make your argument weaker, not stronger.

Anth

My understanding is that the Geneva convention applies to soldiers.
A soldier has a paybook, serial number and a uniform of an army.

If Hicks did not have these he is not a soldier.
He would then be an armed alien civilian.

Marilyn Shepherd –‘Hicks guarded a tank’ – as I asked, who ordered Hicks to guard the tank, and to whom did it belong? Why was this man in the middle of a foreign country, under the command of an organization that is a self-declared enemy of Australia and all other Western nations? And why do you mention Iraq, when Hicks has no connection to it?

What do you suggest be done with Hicks? He is a member of al-Qaeda (read his own words) and a self-declared enemy of the West - and therefore an enemy of my way of life and all I hold dear. Should he be set free to come back to Australia? Perhaps he could join the other brave jihadis already here planning terrorist attacks against us.

As for locking up illegal immigrants – we all know you disagree with this practice, but stop to consider one point:

Every time an alleged terrorist is arrested, his friends and family show the same reaction – they are ‘shocked’, they are ‘disbelieving’ – because, invariably, the person arrested is ‘peace-loving’, ‘family-oriented’, religious, helpful, friendly (just like a boy scout) – they simply cant believe it, there must be some mistake (unless, of course, the families are lying through their teeth, a distinct possibility).

So I ask you, Marilyn, if the jihadis own families don’t know them, if their own families are ‘shocked’ at their actions, where does this leave us? How can we read them if their own families and community cannot? How are we to tell a 'peaceful' Muslim from one who hates us and wants us dead? Can you tell the difference? I can’t.

So commonsense dictates that we do not trust Muslims nor believe their stories until they have been thoroughly checked out. If this means locking them up, so be it. Anyone who has seen the situation created in Europe by Islamic illegal immigrants and 'asylum seekers' could not possibly wish this situation on Australia.

Hang on dee. I'm going to presume to speak for Marilyn for a moment.

The suggestion isn't that we let Hicks out, give him an apple and a library card, and let him run on his merry way.

I'm quite happy for him to be tried and, if guilty, convicted of whatever crimes he might have committed (Treason under s.80.1 of the Criminal Code or the predecessor privisions which applied at the time of his detention, seem worth a shot). If convicted, I'm quite happy for him to serve the appropriate sentence (with an appropriate amount of time remitted due to the fact that he has been in Guantanamo). I don't think too many people here are *supportive* of Hicks.

You need to look past the prisoner to the principle. I am personally quite indifferent to Hicks as a person. But I am very keen on the principle that the bloody USA can't run around grabbing people and locking them up in inhumane conditions in detention facilities. I'm very keen on the principle that the Australian government should render assistance to Australians arrested overseas. And I'm very keen on the principle that nobody should be treated this way while lawyers run around trying to "define his status".

And those principles should apply to everyone from the most enlightened philanthropist through to the most despicable criminal.

Bring him home. Try him. Jail him. But do it by the books!

Anth

The following is a synthesis of some of what's already been put forward which, I think, sums up the situation.

If, as is likely, David Hicks’ case is just an example of misplaced adventure, then how is this terrorism? The soldiers on the ground that pass for military intelligence are often just plods. How would they know whether someone was a terrorist or not? They’ve likely nabbed Hicks because he happened be in the wrong place at the wrong time – in other words, they’re only catching the dumb, the slow and the innocent. How is this fair? They (the plods) are so arrogant and cocksure of themselves that even if the accused has a defence, they would just lie or obfuscate the evidence to discredit it. After all, who’s going to know any different? Anyone with an ounce of experience in how authorities like the police and military operate in real life must have some scepticism. While Hicks has probably been a naughty boy, it’s a lot different to being a terrorist. Four years in Guantanamo Bay is too much for this.

Also, knowing how much the political arm likes having a “bogeyman” to collectively vilify, and how politically expedient it all is to have an archetypal enemy, should make the serious inquirer suspect it’s all a little too convenient and ask more questions.

If there is evidence showing that David Hicks committed an offence then why has he not been brought to trial?

It seems that the US work on the assumption that if they keep someone locked up for long enough then they will not have to be tried as they will die in prison.

It is nearly eight hundrend years since the magna carta was signed,we seem to have gone back to the bad old days of king john when people were imprisoned without charge.

The legal status of David Hicks remains doubtful because of a fundamental shift in the politics of war. The term "war on terrorism" was coined by George W. Bush ater 9/11, and lead to the allies invading Afghanistan to fight the Taliban.

This is a new kind of conflict in which almost anybody can be labelled a terrorist simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, especially "other" foreigners.

I don't know whether David set out defend the Taliban from the invaders or had for that matter, had any understanding he had otherwise placed himself in harms way or beyond the pale.

Neils's comment that "the plight of former genuine PoW is demeaned by those seeking to free Hicks at all costs and without sufficient thought as to the consequences" seems unfair and possibly suggests that international law should now be properly amended to deal with Mr Hicks unique status. Otherwise POW's in future conflicts may fall victim to some de-facto precedent which is now being established.

If the absence of legal status cannot be determined here as is strongly implied by Neil's article then it would be hard to find a better reason and justification for the writ of habeous corpus to be applied

Wendy,

You make me laugh.

"Lest we forget" (I assume that's what you meant anyway).

Yes. The soldiers fought for our freedom. They did this by fighting fascism, and fascism is akin to the behaviour that you‘re supporting i.e. locking people up without a trial. You’ve just contradicted yourself entirely.

BTW – What’s with your virulent Anti-Marilyn campaign anyway? She may be a “Do-gooder”, but I’d rather be a “Do-gooder” than a “Do-bader”.

Sniggid,

If you think this is all about protecting us then good for you. But you sound like a typical product of the dangers of excessive patriotism (and I stress the word “excessive”) i.e. the tendency to believe anything you’re told by the government.

MrMann
There are some people who dont seem to be able to read at all.
For the third and final time I said yes give the little prick a trail.

Also I do not run an anti M attitude. In fact the opposite. I like M and have spoken with her in person and think shes a dag.
[ A good Dag]. However we dont always agree especially when it comes to supporting some useless little trouble maker. I keep raising welfare to express that we need people who understand what this costs us. That results in less sercives for our own.

Hicks got what he went in search of> Trouble.

Sometimes the Federal Government get it right like today overturning same sex Marraige which is just another attempt to break down this country and our standards.

If he .> Hick the Dick wanted to fight he could have fought for his country not against it.

Anyway dont worry so much Mr Mann he has his Islam and his one hundred wives to look forward to.
Gee kind of makes you wonder just whom is telling porkies doesnt it.

I mean they keep saying he is depressed. Wonder how he would of handled the POW camps ?

Yes send him to court the public should know all of the facts and not just what his dad has told the press.

I dont really care much what happens to him and i know many who feel the same way.
What that comes down to is you can care about him if you like but many dont give a dam.
I hope that is clear.
There is no need to chuck a tantrum because you cant make everybody agree with you. Its called life.
Get over it.
I will probably be there fighting to save my country well before you.
Pity there is no way to just protect the ones who are deserving.

Yeah, OK. Settle down. It was hardly a tantrum.

Phew...!

Dee and Wendy, what a blood thirsty pair you are. Hicks did not commit any crime anywhere, anytime - is that clear yet?

He was kidnapped, illegally detained in Gitmo Bay, put into isolation for 244 days and by all the reports from that hell hole he has been tortured to such an extent he will never recover.

Trevor Flugge helped to give $300 million to the butcher of Baghdad and so far all he has had to do is step down from a company directorship.

There are thousands of mercenaries in Iraq, one Australian one was killed last week, they are paid a small fortune to help the US kill Iraqis by the tens of thousands. Why aren't they receiving the same vitriol and hatred? I think they are the scum of the earth but they are allowed to have a job.

Now again girls - Wendy, the people of Livecorp are more criminal than Hicks and Dee - refugees are not David Hicks although he has become a refugee from our own government and in Australia there is no such creature as an illegal immigrant.

4.5 years, torture and torment, losing his mind - one hell of a price to pay for guarding a tank but we have locked children up in the desert for as long as 5 years 5 months and 20 days just for being born in Australia to Chinese parents.

Again this post was about David Hicks not having a trail and again I say of course he should have one.

M I am not blood thirsty Hicks is.
I did not travel to fight, he did.

Yes Livecourpe are an evil lot all right and few know that when these ships come into Australia to carry our poor innocent animals on trips up to three months in the stiffling heat all the ships captain has to do is fax livecourpe.

Thats right> EG? Fax from middle east. Ship Lieaves middle eat with 40 Mohamedads onboard. Fax Ship leaves Australia with 40 Mohamedas on board. Should read have drugs guns illeagels and suffering animals.
Hows that for sercurity! Compliments of the Government and all the people out there who cant get off their bums to stop this barbaric trade.
May they all reap what they have sewn.

It is said that those who set up and run the Nazi concentration camps did so with matter-of-fact business like efficiency.

This article is in the same spirit: very sober yet completely ignoring the whole context of the matter.

John. I would have thought an enquiry [open] into livecourpe would have been right on the money.

Perhaps it is you who does not understand the connection between the two.

If you read most of the comments from these so called worried and concerned cits about hick you will find only the morally bankrupt comments.

All this lashing out at others show indeed only mean spirit.

As they can not speak nicely to their fellow Australian citizens i will take it that they are either all in support of the extream muslims or just trouble makers with little else to complain about.
Lets give them another ten years and if we stay on track I think they might have something to complain about.
I am sure the same lot are happy the leader was realed yesterday.
Fair dinkim what a ungrateful lot.
I am certainly glad my grandparents are not here to see how some Australians turned out. David hicks is only one of them who got caught!

lest we forget.

Wendy seems more concerned about the fate of a ship full of sheep than a fellow citizen who has been illegally detained and apparently tortured for the last 4 years and then uses the terms "morally bankrupt" and "mean spirit" for those who would simply like to know the truth and see justice done.

The words "pot", kettle" and "black" suddenly come to mind.

Under the circumstances I also find the reference to sheep rather apt.

Oh come on Wendy.

First you have the gall to say "If you read most of the comments from these so called worried and concerned cits about hick you will find only the morally bankrupt comments." As one of those "worried and concerned cits" I object to your suggestion of moral bankruptcy, particularly without any justification to back it up. I do not think (apparently unlike you) that I have a monopoly on morality. Hell, my morality is probably no model for anybody. But I am as capable as anyone else of making moral judgment when the need arises. And in Hicks' case my moral judgment comes down to a quite simple feeling that it is not right for a person to be locked up, psychologically tortured, denied human contact for hundreds of days at a time, denied access to family, without charge, without process, and without support from the Australian government.

At the moment a paedophile discovered in Thailand with an 8 year old boy under each arm and two more ordered for the morning, would receive more consular assistance and support than this poor deluded cretin Hicks. Are you comfortable with that Wendy? Are you really?

You then say "All this lashing out at others show indeed only mean spirit." In fact, until this post (I admit it, I am angry now) you are the only person on this thread who has shown a mean spirit. Everyone else, even those who I disagree with, has been putting forward sensible, considered opinions in a considered way. Your posts have been Victorian-era jingoism laced with obscenities.

You will get the final word in this tete a tete because I won't be posting in this thread again. Go on, give it your best shot.

At least you managed to spell "lest we forget" properly this time.

Neil James :

After reading your highly emotive and unsubstantiated harangue of Guantamo Bay resident David Hicks, and hysterical lampooing of the Law Council and other Civil Libertarian organisation's, your credibility as an Independent Guardian on Defence Matters is abysmal.ZILCH - in my books.

Predictability, you have shown your true colours by toeing the US and Howard's acquiescence to the legitimacy of that infamous prison on Cuban soil, Guantamo. Yes, ' bird poo ' for what's it is worth. Like Abu Ghraib, Camp Nama, Nahru and Christmas Island these off shore bastions of prison torture, human right abuses, sadistic interrogations are conveniently located on Foreign soil, to AVOID prying media, Amnesty International, and ad hoc Christian Libertarian groups.

Whatever became of the Westminster Rule of Law: ' innocence until proven guilty ?' We have only the US Military's word DH was captured as a Taliban combatant. Another furphy : trail by heresay evidence. Quote: " according to his family, Hicks served etc ". Pathetic. Simplistic.Juvenile.

As a fellow Australian, has he NO rights ? The tirade continues : " does not mean Hicks can or should be released ", monotonously followed by " until the conflict in Afghanistan ends " suggests emphatically DH should rot in prison, and the key thrown away. Accordingly, he's already be found guilty, condemned and incarcerated for LIFE - on what grounds pray ?

DH's 'cause calebre' resonates on ALL Australian's. Should one unfortunately be arrested Overseas on spurious charges, DONT expect DFA to rescue you. Bureaucrat's like James will have you buried if it contradicts the ' party ' line.

De rigueur, the US Supreme Court have not ruled either way on the legitimacy of Guantamo or the jurisdiction of the US to try DH. Second guessing, as some would want, wont earn cheapie brownie-points by any stretch of the imagination.

Whilst wry G Bush pushes the buttons, it's unlikely a decision on legality will vindicate the Administration, this term of Office.

The argument that War is a ' civilised' activity and practiced by ' civilised Countries' has me doubling over in laughter !

God forbid that the ONA, Duntroon, and War College officially produce such puerile nonsense. No wonder the ADF are held in such low esteem. After the Kovco double whammy debacle. Brigadier Colsen's inebriated loss of a ' top secret' lap top in a Qantas VIP lounge. Billion's of dollar's worth of munitions that are useless and ' ticking-over-as-time-bombs 'in Government warehouses. Audit's that reveal whole scale losses and mismanagement of equipment and stores simply vanishing into thin air ? The litany reads like the foibles of Alice in Wonderland, except for it's gravity.

The War Crimes Commission was established soon after WWII, to convict enemy accused of wilful abuse of Human Rights, murder and lesser violations in accordance with the Geneva Convention. Even though Japan was not a signatory to the Protool, nevertheless their citizen's - military and civilian were summarily brought to justice and executed. Similarly, Terriorists, CIA, MI6, Taliban or Mossad agents who indulge in murder, will face Sovereign Nation's Court's of Law, irrespective of their allegiance to Mickey Mouse or Michael Jackson's Fan Club. One doesn't discriminate if one is 'registered' as the writer impugns.It's naive to suggest serial murderers or rapists have to 'define' themselves because of a nebulous place in History ? Precedent, demeaning,unrestricted warfare, and other childish euphemisms do not come into the equation.

From the time DH was arrested, interrogated, tortured and transported to several Foreign Countries before being chained like a feral animal in Guantamo, DFA have sanctimonously adopted a laissex-faire attitude simply because we cannot afford to offend the US.

Shamelessly, we view modern methodology on interrogation techniques as consistent with articles of War. Under this ambit, psyshedelic drugs, deprivation of sleep, hypnotic trance, electric shock treatment, familial threats, water-torture, finger/toe nail removal,suspension by thumbs/genitals, and devious mental exercises to weaken the metabolism, is condoned Universally.

Of course no one admits to the Rules of Engagement. We are conditioned to expect the Geneva will ensure explicit adherence, by all signatories to Protocols therein. Thgose ouside, needn't ask.

Cheers

God forbid that the ONA, Duntroon, and War College officially produce such puerile nonsense. No wonder the ADF are held in such low esteem. After the Kovco double whammy debacle. Brigadier Colsen's inebriated loss of a ' top secret' lap top in a Qantas VIP lounge. Billion's of dollar's worth of munitions that are useless and ' ticking-over-as-time-bombs 'in Government warehouses. Audit's that reveal whole scale losses and mismanagement of equipment and stores simply vanishing into thin air ? The litany reads like the foibles of Alice in Wonderland, except for it's gravity.

The War Crimes Commission was established soon after WWII, to convict enemy accused of wilful abuse of Human Rights, murder and lesser violations in accordance with the Geneva Convention. Even though Japan was not a signatory to the Protool, nevertheless their citizen's - military and civilian were summarily brought to justice and executed. Similarly, Terriorists, CIA, MI6, Taliban or Mossad agents who indulge in murder, will face Sovereign Nation's Court's of Law, irrespective of their allegiance to Mickey Mouse or Michael Jackson's Fan Club. One doesn't discriminate if one is 'registered' as the writer impugns.It's naive to suggest serial murderers or rapists have to 'define' themselves because of a nebulous place in History ? Precedent, demeaning,unrestricted warfare, and other childish euphemisms do not come into the equation.

From the time DH was arrested, interrogated, tortured and transported to several Foreign Countries before being chained like a feral animal in Guantamo, DFA have sanctimonously adopted a laissex-faire attitude simply because we cannot afford to offend the US.

Shamelessly, we view modern methodology on interrogation techniques as consistent with articles of War. Under this ambit, psyshedelic drugs, deprivation of sleep, hypnotic trance, electric shock treatment, familial threats, water-torture, finger/toe nail removal,suspension by thumbs/genitals, and devious mental exercises to weaken the metabolism, is condoned Universally.

Of course no one admits to the Rules of Engagement. We are conditioned to expect the Geneva Convention will ensure explicit adherence, by all signatories to Protocols therein. Those outside, needn't ask.

Cheers

This is my post to the Bagaric thread. It's just as much at home on this one.

For those who missed it, here's the links to Tuesday's Lateline interview with Prof McCoy:

Realplayer:
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200606/r90598_269855.ram

WinMedia:
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200606/r90598_269857.asx

Watch this well, and tell me you're not more proud of Hicksie than any soccer or football player - more proud of him than any vain leg-spinner or dead cricket icon.

Try to suppress the urge to jump up and yell, "Go Hicksie! You'll do me for a mate!"

Then imagine the kamp kommondants describing the suicides as "assymetric warfare" or as cleverly orchestrated public relations stunts (one of the dead was only 21 years old). Then imagine what a Rocky Horror Show the whole Guantanamo thing has been from the start, daubing everyone and everything it touches with s**t.

There are still Australians who think Guantanamo is a necessary evil. In Auschwitz there were quite a few inmates who thought themselves a cut above the others, so they volunteered to shepherd the rest of the condemned in order to prolongue their own existence. How like those "special" people are our own politicians, our own pragmatic intelligenzia who feel the urge to compromise YOUR freedom, while allowing a little more for themselves.

If Hicksie makes it home with his mind intact - watch out!

There will be a certain slack-gobbed aristocrat who'll be picking the pooh from his fishnets.

"Go Hicksie - YOU LITTLE BEWDY!"

Marilyn Shepherd - please point out the 'bloodthirsty' bits of my posts, or are you simply making stupid accusations to avoid responding to the questions I asked you?

I do not like the thought of anyone being locked up without concrete charges for such a long period - I also would prefer that Hicks be charged and tried but I can see the difficulties in doing so. Terrorism is a whole new area and the Western world has yet to decide how people who have placed themselves in limbo (like Hicks) are to be treated. Our present rules do not cover civilians who decide to join the enemy.

Preventative detention is a flawed solution, but I have not yet seen a viable answer presented.

To Whom It May concern

The Sheep do no harm to anybody and dont blow innocent victims up.

You all speak of torture and bashings of Hicks without one scrap of evidence.

At least we have evidence of the cruelty of live exports.

Yes a trial should have taken place well before this.
That certainly is unfair.
So lets trial hicks.
no I dont like the sound of the guy or where he was and why he was there.
I make no secret for that.
Lets see the evidence.

The main thing as far as we are concerned is to keep this country safe from sleepers.

David Hicks was not fighting with the enemy. What on earth is it in Australia where some bigotries take hold and stick and stick and no amount of truth will dislodge them?

An article in the Monthly magazine by Dr McCoy should scare the hell out of everyone as it details the shocking torture inflicted on innocent men in Gitmo Bay by the US , just like they did in Abu Ghraib. Civilised people cannot call themselves human when they do these appalling things to other humans.

96 Afghans are going home because even the criminal warlords running that place find Gitmo unacceptable, the Saudis have nearly all gone home, the Pakistanis, the Yemenis, the Chinese - almost everyone but David Hicks and he didn't do anything.

He never fired a gun. Not once. And that is the official record. There is no such crime as conspiracy in war and Neil James should be ashamed of himself to support the torture of anyone at all.

The Bastard From the Bush - David Hicks, Part 1

When I came to Australia as a child, the very first books I read were by Henry Lawson and Banjo Patterson. It was a rite of passage in those days, because those works were the sine qua non of Australian citizenship, far more so than any bloody oath to a distant sheila.

...and I "got it". I really got it.

Livin' an' loving, wand'rin' on yer way;
Reapin' the 'arvest of a kind deed done;
An' watching in the sundown of yer day,
Yerself again, grown nobler in yer son.

Knowin' that ev'ry coin o' kindness spent
Bears interest in yer 'eart at cent per cent;
Measurin' wisdom by the peace it brings
To simple minds that values simple things.

An' when I take a look along the way
That I 'ave trod, it seems the man knows best,
Who's met wiv slabs of sorrer in 'is day,
When 'e is truly rich an' truly blest.

An' I am rich, becos me eyes 'ave seen
The lovelight in the eyes of my Doreen;
An' I am blest, becos me feet 'ave trod
A land 'oo's fields reflect the smile o' God.

Livin' an' lovin'; learnin' to fergive
The deeds an' words of some un'appy bloke
Who's missed the bus -- so 'ave I come to live,
An' take the 'ole mad world as 'arf a joke.

*

Chris, thanks for the reminder of how Australian values should be or even used to be.

Living in our government induced state of fear we seem to be willing to condone any act which we can be persuaded will ensure our security.

I hope one day we will awaken from our coma and start to demand some accountability from the people who feed us misinformation about weapons of mass destruction, the fear of terrorists arriving on our shores in leaky boats and the fear that we may have to be accountable for climate change.

What comes around goes around and we would do well to remember this.

You know guys i am still confused as to where all this feeling comes from about a bloke that nobody actually knows that was running with a sus lot.

I mean you are all hardley the picture of nicelness to one another here in Australia and to your fellow cizs are you?

You only have to read these posts to see everybody snipeing at one another.

You dont suddenly change your nature because the blokes in another country now do you.

So if you cant be nice to your fellow Australians then how come you have so much time for strangers overseas?

Or do the people who regually go on about being nice really have another agenda.
I wonder.

Signed confused

Wendy, good point. I tend to have mixed views about this issue.
- I am very strongly opposed to western governments knuckling under to terrorists and breaking the rules. It's a slippery slope. There does seem to be solid evidence that treatment of some prisoners by the USA has been outside what most expect the law to be.
- Hicks was at best an active supporter of an extremely brutal and horrific regeme - The Taliban and at worst actively supporting a terrorist organisation intent on damaging the non-muslim world.

I have heard no serious denials of Hicks involvement in supporting the Taliban and assume that is correct. Any personal sympathy for him dies somewhere about there when I consider the brutality dished out to those who did not follow Islamic rules in the "right" way. Unless his involvement with the Taliban has been dramtically misrepresented Hicks is no hero, rather a biggoted thug who was a party to the kind of repression which none of his Australian supporters would countenance here.

The issue is really about what happens to our society when we start imprisoning people without charge or trial. When happens to our society when we accept systematic emotional (and possibly physical) abuse as legitimate tools of protecting ourselves. When we use some of the tools Hicks appears to have given support to in supporting the Taliban. If it is Ok for potential terrorist sympathisers then maybe it is Ok for suspected tax avoiders or those who publically disent with the Government. Governments and those who serve them have a way of taking a bit more once power is gained and that is what we much be on guard against.

R0bert

(the robot cut me off for my sins)

Wendy and Robert, Hicksie is NO stranger to someone of my generation. He is - (drum roll):

The Bastard From the Bush - David Hicks, Part 2

I ask myself, "What happened to the Aussie spirit?"

Did it wither during the Howard tenure, or was it a delusion that never really existed? Is bodyline OK as long as it is Bush's brigands doing the bowling? How did we let a Sydney Toff set limits to our moral and intellectual compass? Why are our collective voices drowned by the roar of the stock exchange?

Give me the roar of a shearing shed any day. At least we know who is the shearer and who the shorn, and a dog whistle summons only the kelpies.

And I do so hope that the Putsch has met it's match in Hicksie, the bastard from the bush (caution, fruity language):

http://www.immortalia.com/html/recitations/long-recitations/bastard-from-the-bush/index.htm

Question: Do we have the guts to reclaim Hicks before he's forced to join the Poms?

*

For goodness sake, Australia locked up 840 children and their parents for the terrible crime of running away from the Taliban - David Hicks didn't lock up, torture with tear gas and batons, water cannons and Woomera. He didn't turn a new born Afghan baby girl back into the sea while her mother was bleeding from the birth and denied medical care, didn't turn them away to Nauru.

Didn't bomb them at weddings and funerals and having their dinner.

We bloody well did.

Robert

Well I guess there is still one real Ausie left out there .

Your so patient with your explination good for you. I tend to just loose it with them after a while. Bush Boy I am looking for you. See wwwhalakindmeats.com .

Now Now M We were talking about Dear Mr Hicks not children you always do that.

Lets just stay On the Hicks case shall we for now.

Which I might add is a very good idea speaking of Hicks a case.

You know sometimes> Just somtimes, not often mind you I just think it might be possible that the Army and the intelligence might know a bit more than we Australian cits getting about doing our housework and chosen jobs but dont tell the new anti Ausie lot.

So I guess you think its good that that low life has been realeased that plotted to kill everyone in Barli Too do you M.

Tell you something Prison is Prison and wars are wars.
There are no bloody rules.

There would be less if I could get my hands on that Bastard who just walked free over there.

Remember that bloke is fighting for the same cause your mate Hicks

Gee I forgot he didnt do anything either now did he?

Screw Hicks and as his farther is so much in support of his! Son!
mission they should P him off as well.
As they say in the bush. He bred him

.

M You make me sad for the Men and Women who had some real vaules and fought to save this country.

I know what THEY would have done. Hes a traitor and you defend him.

Theres plenty more room to leave and go with him if you like.
If I had the time I would round up a few real country Ausie boys and go fishing.

Drop the bastards off personally I would back to their islam and Allah.

Screw Hicks!

M if u want to do somthing for others then offer a few war widows feee accomadtion like our family does.

Peace – I am not living in a state of ‘government induced fear,’ nor am I in a coma. I am rightfully concerned with (1) the existence of Islamic terrorists operating in every western country, organized by people who hate us and wish to destroy our way of life and (2) the existence of home-grown Muslim terrorists in Australia. Both are undeniable facts, unless you believe that Muslims facing terrorism charges in London, New York, Sydney, Melbourne, Paris, Toronto, and many other places have all been set up by ‘racist’ police or the ever-present Evil Jews. I have no fear of terrorists arriving in leaky boats, but I do have a fear of Australia being swamped by ‘asylum seekers’ in the same way as Europe. Only our ocean borders prevent this from happening to Australia.

Dalma - ‘ psyshedelic drugs, deprivation of sleep, hypnotic trance, electric shock treatment, familial threats, water-torture …’ Its hard to know how to deal with people who hack off the heads of bound, helpless captives in front of cheering cohorts and record the event for posterity; how do you extract information from a person who believes that God directs him to slaughter those who do not share his religious beliefs? How far are you prepared to go in order to save innocent lives? The thought of torture is abhorrent, but do you have a better suggestion?

Re Hicks - all this personal sympathy for a man who joined a fanatical group that forced women into burkhas and ruled with the utmost cruelty. He should be brought up on concrete charges - but to feel sorry for him? Yechh!

Wendy, maybe it's a matter of making better use of this wonderful Internet that we are priveliged to take so much for granted.

For example, see here:

http://www.parasindonesia.com/read.php?gid=347

While it may not say everything you want to hear, note that it is measured, calm, intelligent and thoughtful. There are Indonesian websites where you can ask questions and make your feelings known.

Happily, there are few Indonesian-style Bolts, Ackermanns, Jones or Laws to spread creepy feelings about. That seems to be a peculiarity of Australian "journalism", although Baasyir seems to have caught the virus.

Far be it from me to defend Baasyir, the scourge of the TNI, "aspirational" army generals, the machinations of the Suharto family, the pillage of W Papua, or the fate of women under fundamentalist Sharia law.

But I feel in my bones that most Indonesians are like most Australians. We want a quiet life, doing no harm to others, food for the kids, a roof, the occasional little luxury when you're a bit down. It makes sense.

Here are some Indonesian newspapers, so we can all get a better feel for things. Might see you there (don't forget your summer clothes):

http://www.onlinenewspapers.com/indonesi.htm

In the meantime, on this Aussiest of Aussie sites, let's go on kicking arse Aussie style until this young Aussie bloke is released from the Guantanamo depot of Al-CIA-da (yes, they are a wholly owned subsidiary).

Cheers all. Chris
*

Dee
Maybe all terrorists could be treated in the same way.
One definition of a suicide bomber is a man with a bomb who does not have a air force.
Those who attack other countries which are not attacking them are terrorists, they are creating terror and killing innocent people.

The FBI admit that they have no hard evidence to show that Osama or the Taliban were linked to the attack on the twin towers (there are now a lot of people in the US demanding a more open inquiry into the Sept. 11 attack)
There is no evidence that Iraq had any weapons of mass destruction and was a threat to the US, UK or Australia.
Both of these countries have been invaded and thousands of their people have been killed by the coalition of the willing.
There is little doubt that we now have far more people who hate us than before the invasions and the killing took place.

I am normally a peaceful person but if someone killed some of my family I am sure that I would grab any opportunity to pay back the killer, (even if they said the killing was an accident).

I don't think that we are hated for our way of life, I think we are hated because of the way we treat other people.
We really need a foreign policy when we have more friends on Friday afternoon than we had on Monday morning.

That was a nice post Chriss/ Thanks for the links. As for me I already work with muslims daily both here and overeas. see www.halakindmeats.com

Dee this is about Hicks , however uncle Bin just again took credit for the world trade center a few short weeks ago.

Your living in fairy land if you think to have peace in our own country we dont have to fight for it and protect ourselves. Thats the price of freedom.
The facts are the mulims [not all] with their extream ideas of killing all of the west until the last drop of western blood has been spilled, to quote them is todays real world.

Dream on Dee about who was reasponsible or that David Hicks is just a poor little thing who was in the wrong place.
He addmitted to going over to fight for Islam and so did his Australian father.
To be fair to his father he did say his som just liked fighting and war and guns but then he could have joined any army.
Ever thought of that.

I make no apoligies for having little time for someone who was plotting against his fellow country men

Shame on him and I am glad he was nabbed

@Peace:
“We really need a foreign policy when(where) we have more friends on Friday afternoon than we had on Monday morning”

However,in the real world we often need to make a stand on issues that are not popular.
-Remember our stand on East Timor –Not popular in Indonesia & the Moslem world.
-Remember our stand on Taiwan - Not popular with China
-Remember our concerns for Sudan’s black Africans-Not popular with much of the Arab world.

It is more important to consider the quality of the friendship/friends we are winning.
Some such as a near neighbour to our north are friendly when we give them aid, or introduce policies to their liking –but spit the dummy as soon as we say something out of order.-those sorts of friends we can do without.

Wendy,

I can't help but notice there are a lot of typos in your posts.

You may see the characters on keyboard better if you take off the white hood.

Why not spend just a few minutes to research some facts.

Rache.

If all u can do is use this post as a personal insult colum then I suggest u dont use it at all.

I suffer from RT which translated to u means its painful to type at all.

That condition is made worse because of the hours working on such things as this www.halakindmeats.com and this www.livexports.com Not to mention our familys international School of English and Langage.

Yep I tend to just bash things out and not worry too much.

What I am concerned about is people like you who display a bankrupt of bassic manners and principles.
Be all the same if I were someone who left school at an early age or! never attended school at all like many.

Your mean spirit and the lack of anything uselful to say either for or against Hicks is another example of the empty headed fools who go on this line simply to be offensive personally to others.

You must have little else to worry about even considering the state of this world.
I can only pity you I suppose.

As I was saying before i was interupted on this post yes Hicks should have a day in court.

I have rarely encountered such a twisted attempt to argue in support of something indefensible.

A truly foolish article, written by an author willing to distort facts, legal interpretations, public policy, and public sentiment, while maintaining a thin veneer of logic to expedite the conclusion of an objective that remains obscure.

Can we simply agree that Hicks is an idiot and that, while idiocy might normally be rewarded by appointment to public office, its time he was sent home?

Are We Right to Condemn Hicks?
(who's who in the war on terror) - Part 1

In January 2001, David Hicks went to Afghanistan. This much was known by his father, later that year:

http://www.fairgofordavid.org/htmlfiles/documents/interview.htm

Now, lest we forget, the Taliban "government" was not the enemy at the time, although we all saw the documentaries on ABC/SBS showing the utter contempt for humanity shown by the Taliban, and we all probably wished they would drop dead.

Nevertheless, Colin Powell arranged a gift of $43 million to the Taliban as late as May of that year, months after David arrived:

http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html

So Hicksie was not entering "enemy territory" as far as any government (including ours) was concerned. Indeed we were willing to turn a blind eye to their machinations all along:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=%2Farchive%2F1997%2F12%2F14%2Fwtal14.html

Note here that the present President of Afghanistan was an employee of Unocal at that time.

Moving on, it's time to look at how the Taliban was created in the first place, because nothing - NOTHING - ever happens for no reason. There is a reason for everything if we just look, and the beginnings of the Taliban deserves a topic and thread all it's own.

The Taliban had it's unforseen beginnings during the reign of President Jimmy Carter. Carter was, and is, a good bloke. But he fell in with the wrong crowd during the oil crisis of those days (there is an ironical parallel here with our Iraqi escapade).

Carter's foreign policy nerd was Zbigniew Brzezinski (who's name I can't pronounce to this day). Brzezinski the brainstormer had this terrific idea of luring the (evil enemy) USSR into Afghanistan, where they might meet the fate of the old British Empire. And they did - with a lot of help from the CIA.

The trouble is that the CIA did such a good job of filling the local yokels with spite, venom and hatred, that it will take generations to undo. Those CIA bastards even supplied math books to schools, which used guns and tanks instead of apples and oranges to assist with counting - it's a fact!

Are We Right to Condemn Hicks?
(who's who in the war on terror) - Part 2

The defeat of the USSR by CIA assisted Afghanis is history. Osama Bin Laden was a vital CIA asset for the channeling of money and arms. You just don't "leave" the CIA without their say-so, or you're dead meat. I wonder if he is alive at all.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0111/S00018.htm

The death-toll of Afghanis was considerable, and there seems to be little to refer to except a UN report suggesting 10,000 deaths in just one nine month period of that nine year war. The bottom line is that there were many, many orphans. A generation of young men were taken in by the only people who would take care of them - the madrassas.

There, without a woman's touch, they grew with this for their education:

http://prisonplanet.com/bush_and_the_media_cover_up_the_jihad_schoolbook_scandal.html

It was those children who grew to become the narrow-minded, unyielding, mysoginistic foot soldiers of the Taliban. There is nothing natural about mysoginism. There is nothing in the history of Islam to explain this great terrorism of which we are supposed to be afraid.

I submit that radical Islamic fundamentalism is a modern phenomenon. It is MADE IN THE USA. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It continues to be a tool of the geopolitical nerds.

Maybe Brzezinski should have the last word:
*

Peace – ‘The FBI admit that they have no hard evidence to show that Osama’ – in that case, I guess Osama’s own confessions and bragging don’t count. Millions of Muslims worldwide believe him, you must know something we don’t.

‘I don't think that we are hated for our way of life’- Of course we are hated for our way of life. There are innumerable statements by Muslim leaders to prove it. Individual freedom - freedom of speech and religion, the freedom of women to be educated, to dress as they wish, the freedom to choose one’s own path in life instead of slavishly following the dictates of imans and despots – is anathema to religious Fascists like Bucky Bashir and the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia. It is also a very great threat to their power over their followers.

Wendy – ‘Dee this is about Hicks ..’ - excuse me? I think you are mixing me up with another contributor. Reread! I'm one of the people with no sympathy for Hicks. I’m glad he was nabbed too.

I wish people posting here would stop directing personal insults at those with whom they disagree. I was always told at school that you lose a debate the moment you engage in personal denigration. Seems there are quite a few ‘losers’ in this neighbourhood. So please 'lose' the lame advice about forgetting to take medication, pointing out obvious typos, having alzheimers et al. It really lowers the tone of the forum.

Chris Shaw says:
"There is nothing in the history of Islam to explain this great terrorism of which we are supposed to be afraid.
I submit that radical Islamic fundamentalism is a modern phenomenon. It is MADE IN THE USA. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It continues to be a tool of the geopolitical nerds"

ROTFL -You're joking aren’t you Chris?...aren’t you Chris?
Please don't let your (quite reasonable) distrust of Bush or US foreign policy blind you to the origins & dangers of fundamentalist Islam. Please take a look at the history of Islam from its beginning up to how it is being practiced in modern Islamic societies.
And then reconsider what you said.

Chris Shaw - " .. nothing in the history of Islam to explain this great terrorism .. "

I dont know whether to laugh or cry. Chris, you have obviously not studied the history of Islam and its 1400 years of aggression against non-Muslims. The 350 word limit prevents me from posting the hundreds of quotes disproving your misconception - here are two:

Ibn Hudayl was a 14th century Granadan author who wrote an important treatise on jihad:

“It is permissible to set fire to the lands of the enemy, his stores of grain, his beasts of burden – if it is not possible for the Muslims to take possession of them – as well as to cut down his trees, to raze his cities, in a word, to do everything that might ruin and discourage him, provided that the imam (i.e. the religious “guide” of the community of believers) deems these measures appropriate, suited to hastening the Islamization of that enemy or to weakening him. Indeed, all this contributes to a military triumph over him or to forcing him to capitulate.”

Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406) - a jurist, renowned philosopher, historian, and sociologist, he summarized these consensus opinions from five centuries of prior Sunni Muslim jurisprudence with regard to the uniquely Islamic institution of jihad:

"In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the [Muslim] mission and [the obligation to] convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force... The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense... Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations."

Sound familiar?

Wendy, I sincerley apologise for my misguided personal comment. I would not have made that remark if I knew all the facts.

Nevertheless, the facts you seem to overlook in the Hicks case include that

His involvement in fighting aganst the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan was also NOT illegal and took place before 911 events
There is NO evidence that he was involved in any plot to attack Australia or any other Western country
There is NO evidence to say he was a member of Al Quaeda let alone fighting for Al Quaeda
Furthermore he says that he was disillusioned and leaving after he heard about the WTC attack but returned to retrieve his personal papers. He was then trapped and conscripted by the Taliban to guard a tank at Kandahar Airport. He was eventually sold to the US by for $1000 and picked up at a taxi station while trying to leave the country.


There are only two lawyers in Australia who argue that the military commissions are fair.

They are Howard and Ruddock - the same men who insisted that refugees threw their children overboard and who are now sucking-up to Indonesia by changing our own immigration laws.

Just as Hicks was sold to the US by the Northern Alliance for money, our own Government is selling him as a kind of token "War Trophy" to help justify two illegal acts of international aggression and to help stitch up the Free-Trade Agreement that followed shortly after.

If Hicks is proven guilty of any real offence during a fair and open trial I will be among the first to condemn him.
Until then he is entitled to the same diplomatic protection as any other Australian citizen.
If he was being held and tortured by any other country without charge all diplomatic hell would break loose.
In this matter, the USA and Australia are morally no better than those insurgents who kidnap and torture contractors in Iraq for their own political ends.

Dee,

It DOES sound familiar. Who would have thought it possible? A violent Holy book.

The Bible is actually more violent toward unbelievers than the Koran
(Deteronomy 13:6-15 vs Koran 9:29)

The Bible promotes greater cruelty in warfare
Deuternomy 21:13-16 vs Koran 47:4

but both religions demand that enemies should be killed without pity
Ezekiel 9:5-7 vs Koran 8:61

I can quote many more but I think you many can see that neither book has a monopoly on kindness toward unbelievers.

What somebody said in the 14th Century is not really relevant to what people do or believe today, despite prejudices on all sides.

For example, the Bible (and even Jesus) does not condemn slavery but we don't condone it today.

I don't think obscure religious references will do anything for David Hicks but they do illustrate how uninformed predudices control what we say.

Dee your correct I typed the wrong persons name.

Sache Thanks for the apology however to be honest your not entiley wrong about Hick the dick[ Sorry couldnt resist]

I could not care less about him.

At least I am honest.

In every war there are prisoners and I just dont get it in this new age of war that we are supposed to make them a cuppa and cookies provide tV and slipers.

No I dont hate all Muslims but i hate the extream ones and I dont care what happens to prisoners to be honest.

Maybe he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and maybe he was in the right place at the right time.

Ever thought of that.?

I say this knowing the lies that Howard tells better than most .

However he is pretty on the mark about getting in first and fighting them on their own turf.

So i am saying i think torture and isolation is a part of wars.

Its used on both sides.

Also I do NOT beleive all these people going on even think about this Hicks guy. I bet you a shilling on the side i would care more than anyone of them about the person.

Many Muslims are good people its just a shame about the odd few million that want to blow up the west.

Yep give hicks a trial but dont loose too much sleep over him because if u are not Muslim he would not loose any over you[beleive me] .

Cheers my friend.

"our familys international School of English and Langage." (sic)

I know I wasn't going to post again but that is just about the funniest thing I have ever read!

If they sine up and pas do yu gif dem a diplomma?

ROFL!

Anth

Horus
You have left out the stand we took on Vietnam, was there a reason for this ommission?

dee
Check the FBI most wanted terrorist list, Osama is not wanted for the twin towers job.

Anth

Easy to se which paddock you were born in.

Whats the Anth short for> Anthrax?

Again this is about what people think about David Hicks
Again we say he should at least have a trial.
Do try to get over your rude self and stay on track.
I would hate to be Hicks relying on you if he is innocent.

Do indulge your spiteful hatred towards pro Ausies in some other way.

I am sure David Hicks would appreciate it as you are supposed to be so very concerned about him

Wendy what on earth is a pro-Aussie? Is that you or me because we happened to be born here of migrant stock? Get over it.

We are all entitled to disagree vehemently with our wretched government and it's actions without being called anit-Aussie.

Again into the fray - David Hicks did not do anything.

He did not plot against Australia, the US or anyone else.

He guarded a bloody tank and then got kidnapped leaving Afghanistan.

Full stop - yet he has been tortured and tormented for nearly 5 years.

You ask Marilyn what on earth is a Pro Australian.

My goodness.

No Marilyn its certainly NOT just someone that was born here after all Hicks was born here wasnt he.

Being a pro Australian person is something that you clearly dont understand as you continue to bite the hand that feeds you.

I am sure we will all sleep better now because Marilyin Shepard said David Hicks did not do anything wrong.

For goodness sake and you tell me! to get over it.

How would you know what Hicks did or didnt do while you sit back on welfare payments as usual going on about stuff you have no idea about.

Thats the problem with you that you pretty much demand people agree with you in your extream anti Ausie attitute.

If being Pro Ausie is so hard to swallow then why dont you just go live with all these people you seem to prefer than us because you are certainly not the Ausie that my father and grandfather gave so much up to protect.
What is a Pro Ausie indeed> Shame on you.

.
Stop making comments you clearly know stuff all about.
I think the Army might know a bit more than you sitting in your home dreaming up your fantacy of being a important person.

What is being Pro Ausie?



I have followed your comments on several different posts and dozens of people have told you the same thing but you ignore everybody.

Perhaps your ilness is a mental one because you certainly dont seem to be getting the message.

In the mean time I think all Ausies support David Hick being put to trial which is what this was about.

Everybody deserves a trial because thats the Ausie way of fair play.

Ok Peace, since it will make your day:
Remember our stand on Vietnam -Not popular with the lefty peaceniks.
-Very popular with the Sth Vietnamese, many of whom voted with their feet after we left( & those that didn't,now wished they did)

Hey Wendy, I am really interested in this whole "pro Aussie" thing.

Could you tell us, say, 5 basic principles which make a person "pro Aussie"?

Anth

(And before you have a crack it me, there is no insult or irony in this post. But you use the term a lot. Marilyn unsuccessfully tried to find out what you mean by it. I am interested too. I know what *I* mean by pro Aussie. I would like to know what you mean.)

Wendy as the only country I have ever lived in I have to be pro-Aussie, but I don't have to support every revolting thing some Aussies do.

I don't have to support the treatment of David Hicks, or locking up refugees without charge or trial (that is the Aussie way it seems), I don't have to support Howard nobbling the senate, or using vilification and racism to justify their vile policies about some things.

Wendy we are about the same age - I grew up in a redneck town, I have no mental illness, my grandfather fought for 6 years for our "freedom" and he did not fight for the right to blow up other countries for the hell of it, to lock up little kids, to turn away harmless refugees, for religious and racial vilification and torment and so on.

He would be rolling and spinning in his grave.

Anth.
Here ya go buster done me bloody best mate. Hope you get it!

Bless Australia I say… (by a perceptive Migrant).
I come for a visit – am treated regal
So I stay – who cares illegal?
I come to Australia, poor and broke
Get on bus see man power bloke
Kind man treat me really well there

Send me down to see Welfare
Welfare said “Come down no more
We send the cash out to your door”.

Six months on the dole – got plenty money
Thanks to working man – the dummy
Write to friends in Vietnam
Tell them “Come as fast as can”
Hey all come – in rags and sampans
I buy big house in suburbans
They come with me – we live together
Only one thing bad – it is the weather
Fourteen families living in
Neighbors patience running thin
Finally whites move away
I buy their house too – I say
Find more Cong`s – house I rent
More in garden live in tent.

Send for family – they all trash
They all draw more welfare cash
Everything is going good
Soon we own the neighborhood
Now on quiet summer nights
Go to temple – watch the fights.

We have a hobby – call it breeding
Baby bonus keeps us feeding
Two years later big bank roll
Still go manpower – still draw dole
Kids needs dentist – wife needs pills
We get free – we got no bills
White man good, he pay all year
To keep the Welfare running here
Bless all white men, big and small
For paying taxes to keep us all
We thank Australia – damn good place
To damn good for white man race
If they like yellow man
Plenty room in Vietnam….

Marilyn – you say that ‘locking up refugees is the Aussie way’ and then no doubt wonder why many Australians would find that claim to be offensive. Illegals are ‘locked up’ – because they have attempted to enter Australia without documentation and in many cases have destroyed their ID. Why would genuine refugees do such a thing? I would imagine that genuine refugees would be only too happy to prove their claims. You can’t possibly be suggesting that Australian authorities simply accept their stories at face value – can you? Releasing them into the community before their cases are settled will result in the same debacle as in the UK where thousands of ‘asylum seekers’ simply disappeared and were never heard from again. A recipe for disaster.

Question: how has John Howard used ‘vilification and racism’ to justify Lib policies? Can you give concrete examples?

Australia is not blowing up any country that I know of, even ‘for the hell of it’. Hicks elected to join an organization of Islamic fanatics who would force you into a burkha and cut your throat if you resisted – why the personal sympathy for this traitor?

‘He would be rolling and spinning in his grave’.

My father and his 3 brothers also fought for the freedom of Australians, one of my uncles on my mothers side was on the Kokoda Track. They would most certainly spin in their graves to see some of the recent imports to the country they fought for – rabid Islamic fanatics who admire beheading and loathe Jews, hate literature targeting Australians being sold in the community of people we accepted into this country as ‘refugees’ and immigrants

Hicks - The Bastard From the Bush, Part 3

Last thing - some real history of contemporary, living people. Oh, and yes, they are on our "team".

I have seen the enemy - and he is us. This thread cements it.

HOW JIMMY CARTER AND I STARTED THE MUJAHIDEEN

Interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski, Le Nouvel Observateur (France), 1998

QUESTION: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

BRZEZINSKI: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

QUESTION: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [integrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

BRZEZINSKI: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

QUESTION: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

BRZEZINSKI: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

*

Mark thee well.

*

Lots of interesting comments ...but,
What would the Yanks do if Australia did a similar thing to one of their citizens :- took him to a Communist Country and locked him up for years with a very belated charge, and no fair trial?

Why, they'd turn those nuclear warheads in our direction and say "Johnny, you will let him go - wont you?"

Hey Anth and M.
Now I have got a question.

What is a racist?

Is it somebody who does not wish to see their own country and culture lost?

If So Then I am gunna print some T shirts reading PROULDLY RACIST.

Bet I would sell a few too.

Helping others is the greatest feeling known to man kind.

bUT when those you have helped start telling you what to do in your own counrty and start to change laws, such as bibles in hospitals Santa parties for our kids well its time to find another leaky boat to return them from where there came where there is no welfare or stupis Ausies who help them undermine OUR country and OUR laws.

Sighned
PROUDLY RACIST.
Oh and David Hicks prefers to be fighting for Islam so leave him there or drop him off in Iraq to fight.[ Against us of course] After all hes got a right to choose sides which he did.

Wendy - it's an interesting point that David Hicks converted to Islam, changed his name to Mohammed Dawood, went overseas and joined the Taliban, a rabid organisation full of fanatics who murdered anyone who resisted. He wrote letters home telling his father how he hated Jews and how much better the world would be under Islam. Fair enough. His choice.

But when he was captured, the whole story changed - he once again became David Hicks and sought help and legal representation from the country and system he had rejected. Obviously, the sharia law that he tried to impose on others didnt help him much.

This guy is a double turncoat - first he turned on Australia, then he turned on hardline Islam. He rejected us, but we are supposed to fall over ourselves helping him. If he had not elected to fight with the Taliban, he would not be where he is today.

A bit like the Prodigal Son, except most Australians do not wish to emulate the father. Hicks is an Australian in name only. Put him on trial by all means, but why people here are wasting their sympathy on him is beyond me.

Oh, Wendy. I truly hope you are taking the piss.

I still don't know what a "pro-Aussie" or an "anti-Aussie" is in your books, except that your pro-Aussies seem to be racist, intolerant and jingoistic.

I think your Australia and mine are different Wendy.

In the Australia I love, people are generally decent. They have an instinct, almost a gut feeling, about what is right and fair, and what is not. And in the Australia that I love, lots of people have used that instinct to reflect on David Hicks.

When he was arrested, I think lots of people's instinctive reaction was "Well, tough bickies mate. You got caught playing for the wrong team, so face your punishment."

As it became clear that he was being imprisoned in pretty tough conditions, I suspect some people decided fairness would bring him home, while many others thought "Well, it would be better if he were in a proper prison, but he got to Guantanamo by his own efforts."

As time dragged on and it became clear that the Yanks were in no hurry to give him a day in court for a fair trial, I reckon most people's instincts got to even-money. "Yeah, he should face his punishment, but he deserves a proper trial and punishment."

Now, my instincts tell me Hicks is a bloody fool who should never have gone to Afghanistan; that when he was caught fighting for the wrong team, he deserved to be imprisoned, tried and punished; that the trial and punishment should have happened by no; and that regardless of what *Hicks* has done, what the *Yanks* are doing just isn't right.

It's like the situation if you ever saw cops catch a crim then wantonly beat him. I'm glad the crim was caught. I want him tried and punished. But I don't think the cops should act that way.

I'm almost sorry for you, Wendy. Almost. But I'll tell you this. I'm not anti-Aussie, but I'm definitely anti-Wendy. And if you think you're the epitome of "Australian", I reckon you're wrong.

Anth

Anth

Thank`s good post you expressed your feelings well.

Dees post was good. She pointed out a few more details.

Hicks has no loyalty to Australia Anth.That’s the end of it as far as I am concerned.

Your right about one thing> He got Caught.
Tough.

I am not anti Muslim Anth but I am certainly anti any Ausie who leaves his or her own country to fight against us.

I am sick of the lies from the Australian Government who hide behind the Vaile See Minister of Trade www.livexports.com

Alexander Downer and Mark Vaile pretty much treat the public with utter contempt.

They push live animal exports and use the tax payer’s funds to do it regardless of the fact that 90 percent want it stopped.

Yes I have far more sympathy for animals being sent live to Middle East than Hicks.
They didn’t ask to be there!
Which brings me to you Senator Fielding. We are still waiting for your good Christian values to stand up against animal cruelty.
AFIC The Australian Federation Of Islamic Council have put out several media Releases denouncing Animal cruelty involved with live exports and informing the public that they do not require animals live.

So if the Muslims are screaming about the cruelty of live animal exports what’s wrong with you Senator Fielding as a good Christian?
John Howard Downer Vaile stops your lies to the Australian Public.
Now you have Senator who represents all Christian Churches I hope the Islamic faith of Islam Give you heaps.
Who has the kindest laws of faith re animal cruelty? According to my records it’s the Muslim faith who has complained about the Australian Government lying to the public about their so called requirements of live animals for religious purposes.

The truth is you have flooded the country with cheap imports and are traitors to the Australian farmers and young job seekers.

You have sold our country out and we are in massive foreign debt.

Dee this might come as a complete surprise to you but genuine refugees cannot get documents and in our law they don't actually need any to enter Australia. If Afghans are being tortured and killed by the Taliban how can they get papers from the Taliban? What about in Iraq - how could Iraqis have got papers from Saddam Hussein without being shot.

What you don't understand is that 98% of the people you still call illegals, which they are not, are still here and not one of them ever had legal documents - and there has never been a trace of evidence anyone destroyed papers - they didn't have any.

Afghans were not registered at birth from 1973 onwards so how could the people have papers? Get a grip Dee, real refugees are allowed to travel without papers and in fact it is almost mandatory.

As for Jew hating. Do you know what Australia said in 1938 when asked to accept Jews escaping nazi Germany? They said piss off and 6 million people were slaughtered.

I have worked out that it would take about 17,000 years at the current rate for the so-called fanatical islamists to replicate that.

David Hicks was not fighting with anyone - he guarded a tank and was trying to catch a taxi.

Dee yes I hear You. Most Ausies do. M now thinks we are responsible for 6 Million dews being killed by the crouts for god sake. Can you imagine Australia in 1938 taking 6 million. I think the Anti Ausie agenda is what is the so called support for Hick The Dick.
M said he was just catching a taxi. I quite Like M and shes very entertaining but I only post on here for a break from real politics to some humour in life.
Anybody that even thinks these posts make the slightest difference are fooling themselves.
M It is a fantacy to say people do not destroy papers once they arrive. My friend was incharge of federal police years ago and I assure you that you are totally wrong.

I assume you dont think we should turn anybody away, except everybody on their word and put everybody into Ausie jobs or on welfare.
Is that Correct?

Marilyn – “genuine refugees cannot get documents”

So you would have us believe that there is absolutely no way for Afghans, Iraqis etc to prove their identities? Pro-asylum seekers have told us (ad nauseum) that would be refugees sell their houses and property to get the cash to buy their illegal passage – but there is never documentation? I for one would not expect them to provide birth certificates or other government-generated proof but its really stretching it to ask us to believe that they have nothing whatsoever in their possession to help prove their identity. If this is so, how did they enter Indonesia?

And why would anyone in his/her right mind expect to arrive on the doorstep of another country (without documentation of any kind) and expect the authorities of that country to believe their stories without question?

You blame Australia for the slaughter of 6 million Jews? Why not blame the Nazis?

You keep saying that Hick’s only crime was to guard a tank - yeah, unfortunately the tank belonged to the Taliban. So did he disobey Taliban orders and try to catch a taxi?

I have often thought that al-qaeda had plans for Hicks – perhaps they needed him for a task that would arouse suspicion if carried out by a Middle Eastern Muslim, but Hicks, as a white Australian, would have been ideal.

“ so-called fanatical islamists ..”

Why ‘so called’? Has it not been demonstrated to your satisfaction that there are fanatical Islamic Fascists planning and carrying out terrorist attacks against us

I feel like wading in here. Something has struck a nerve.

Here is the story of the St Louis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_St._Louis

Note that those refugees were fleeing for their lives. Many had sold everything they had. Many families sold their meagre belongings just to send ONE member to safety (ring any bells yet?).

In their haste, they fell prey to bureaucratic red-tape (ring any bells yet?).

Yet when they appealed to the "Land of The Free", the President was silent and the US Coastguard put a shot across her bows (ring any bells yet?).

"If we let them in, where will it stop?" (ring any bells yet?).

"They breed like rabbits, they have different habits and customs" (ring any bells yet?).

Neither the USA nor Canada would let them touch land (ring any bells yet?).

In the end, Britain and three European countries took them in, but alas, so many were swept back to their deaths when Europe was overrun by the Nazis.

*

This is not simple sentimentality on my part.

Callous indifference, such as we have shown in this country and on this website, has deep historical consequences. Look at the Middle East today. We who profess to be Christians, should practise the humilty that we preach, even when it hurts. It never hurts.

Even a lost soul like me is prepared to try that at least.

I know for sure that Wendy is just being mischievous but Dee is a different matter. Dee, when nearly 5,000 Afghans escaped the Taliban and came to Australia we locked them up like criminals.

145 nations that have signed the refugee convention guaranteed that people who are refugees are allowed to cross borders to seek protection. If you can't get birth certificates, are not considered human beings just because you are a woman, cannot legally cross borders because you cannot get passports or visas what would you do? Would you stay and be murdered?

I have never said that Australia is responsible for the murder of 6 million Jews - I said we sent them back. Even after the war we excluded a good many Jewish refugees and gave refuge to the nazis who murdered them. Why? Because they were white.

I think you ignorant women need to do some genuine reading instead of simply being absurd.

Dee, you tell me what crime there is in guarding a tank. Come on. Explain how guarding a tank is a crime no matter who it is for.

If that is a crime the ADF who just murdered a guard in Iraq should be charged with murder. There are about 1,000 Australian mercenaries in Iraq - are they criminals? Making money galore off the misery of the poor Iraqi people.

This debate has generated into the ridiculous - go and do some homework.

‘Dee is a different matter’ - Why?

‘I .. never said ... Australia is responsible for the murder of 6 million Jews’ – that is exactly what you said.

“They said piss off and 6 million people were slaughtered”

This clearly states that six million Jews were slaughtered because Australia told them to ‘piss off’. If that's not what you meant, perhaps you should rewrite. Accuracy is more important than dramatics.

I already said that I wouldn't expect asylum seekers to produce government documents but if these people have lived their whole lives in the country, why are they unable to produce a single scrap of proof?

“Because they were white” - Don’t be absurd. The Nazis had very efficient escape organizations; there are escaped Nazis on every continent. In fact, thousands of Nazis took refuge in the Middle East – a good reason why Islamic fanatics are so similar to the original Nazis. Virulent hatred of Jews is endemic in Islamic countries and is another good reason to be wary of a large influx of Muslim immigrants and ‘refugees’.

‘Explain how guarding a tank is a crime no matter who it is for’

– you don’t appear to know anything about warfare.

Scenario WWII: Australian patrol comes across an Australian guarding a Japanese tank on the orders of his Japanese masters. The patrol is correct in regarding this man as a traitor fighting on the side of the enemy.

‘..the ADF who just murdered a guard in Iraq should be charged with murder’

US and Australian forces are dealing with primitives who obey no rules and laugh at those who do – they get a free pass to torture and behead helpless captives, but God forbid we should ignore the Geneva Convention.

“Ignorant” – I could say that of you. You have obviously never seen the chaos in Europe and the UK created by Muslim immigrants/refugees. I have seen it up close. If you ever see it, perhaps we can talk again, although I suspect there is no proof on earth that could change your mind.

Marilyn says:
"When nearly 5,000 Afghans escaped the Taliban and came to Australia we locked them up like criminals"

I put it to you Marilyn that most "refugees" who come to Australia are economic “refugees”.They are seeking to improve their position in the pecking order,rather than escape persecution.

They have been very selective in choosing to come to Aust.
If they were from Afghanistan they would have by-passed some 8-9 other countries –some of them “moderate” Islamic nations.

Further in most cases they stayed for long periods in third countries, while waiting for the ideal time to make their move.

And from what I have seen, they are not so much running from the Taliban as bringing Taliban-like values with them.

Its True Dee I love taking the micky out of M Just for fun. She always bites and its a constant source of enertainment for me I am afraid. I have spoken to her and she has seen a few things that have clearly upset her and she forgets how nice people are when they want something. I am really trying to divert her to helping with live exports because I tell you what if Howard and Vaile Downer had M on their backs they would Ban it tomorrow.[grin] When Australia finally is attacked I just want enough time to stand there and say to the everyday housewife mother and business man meet the people you have been sending LIVE animals to.! I call it cow carma. Until people learn to respect all creatures they wont care about other people either. I just dont see where people get off saying WE are more important. Surley we share this earth and we are just another living creature along with the rest of them. Speaking of creatures I am with you on the Hick issue and M has lost me totally this time.M if u really want to get Hicks off go for mental health and get him put in a hospital for the crazy where he belongs.
If he was not insaine before he will be now after being in that place. See how nice I am M free legal advise even for Hick the Dick Keep up the good work Dee.

Wendy – the beef I have with Marilyn is that she refuses to respond to reasonable questions. ‘We’ have killed 100,000 Iraqis, ‘we lock up refugees’ etc etc. No sources or proof provided. She has no alternative plan to detention and refuses to tell us why would be refugees travelled through several Muslim countries to reach Australia – a country with a completely different way of life, different language, vastly different religion, customs and mores. Why? It couldn’t be because Australia has a generous (read ‘mug’) welfare system? Seeking a better way of life is fine, but it makes you an economic refugee and Australia has absolutely no obligation to accept people looking for better pickings.

Re the two cases that taxpayers (via the government) are paying through the nose for - both these people lied for reasons best known to themselves - one claimed to be German - yet according to Marilyn and co., thats our fault too. Could be, if you dont want to end up in a detention centre, dont pretend to be a foreigner who cant speak English.

The thing that peeves me most of all, is that in the eyes of Marilyn, ’we’ are always wrong. However, I will own up to 'sometimes'.

I do agree about live exports.

The legal position of David Hicks is indeed an interesting question. It was only 140 years ago that there was no distinctions between captued enemy soldiers and criminals. Prussia and the USA were the first countries in the world to sign an agreement recognising each others soldiers as not being criminals, in the event that they ever went to war.

Since then, all the countries of the civilised world have followed suite. But the status of ununiformed combatants has never been defined. One thing is certain, ununiformed combatants do not have any protection under the Geneva Convention although a combatant power may choose to recognise captured ununiformed combatants as "soldiers" (ie the Viet Cong) but there has never been any obligation for them to do so.

So if they are not soldiers are they criminals? Criminals do not blow themselves to bits in order to mass murder civilians so that they can spend eternity bonking 72 virgins. Nor do criminals normally arm themselves with anti tank and anti aircraft weapons and armoured vehicles, as the Taliban did.

So I think that it is time for the civilised world to rethink it catagories again. Add the catagory of "terrorist" to "soldier" and "criminal". This would be very similar to the old British concept of "outlaw" (outside of the protections of the law.)

Shoot him on sight, stick his balls in a vice and ask him polite questions, kill him, and bury him in a pigskin.

Dee I know what you are trying to say but others[dozens] have complained to M about the same thing.
ie. She never answers the questions.

I posted to her on Battlets web page for six months as others did asking the same questions.

It wont make any difference Dee.

M does have a lot of knowledge but fails to come up with better ideas and truley thinks we can afford to take in the whole world.

She means well.

I am looking forward to her reply to nedneck. What a dag. A man after my own heart.

As I said I just in the end had to except that M wont ever see it our way and not take these posts too much to heart.
Lets face they are not going to change any laws anyway.

Your comments are appreciated by many and Yes M you should answer the hard questions instead of ignoring Dee and others.

Dont be too hard on my new mates Dee and Red Neck M.
Now thats what I call Pro Ausie Anth and M.

I was dissapointed u did not comment on my poem.
Its my pride and joy.

Be nice now like we are! [grin]

Wendy - I agree that our comments here dont make a lick of difference but its good to keep up your debating skills and to read what others are thinking.

Marilyn - ‘..the ADF who just murdered a guard in Iraq should be charged with murder’

You had these men tried and convicted before you knew what had happened. Do you count that as an 'Australian value'? Last time I noticed, Australians still believed in 'innocent until proven guilty' - except if you have the misfortune to be members of the Australian military serving in a war Marilyn doesnt support, of course.

From the Daily Telegraph:

"Australian soldiers travelling in a convoy of three Light Armoured Vehicles (ASLAV) fired on the unmarked 4WD carrying the bodyguards when it attempted to overtake the convoy at speed.

The Australians waved away the Iraqis – who were armed with AK-47 rifles – but they were ignored and the car weaved between the ASLAVs.

The Australians fired a short burst into the car, and the Iraqis fired back about 10 rounds."

So what should they have done? Allowed an unmarked car possibly full of suicide bombers, free access to their convoy?

Dee
M will just argue that the soldiers should not have been there in the first place.
She will probably say they are just people who like to kill others.

Like I say about low life hunters to then have the nerve to call their sneaking up on innocent animals SPORT!

The counter argument of course given that this post is about David Hicks is David would understand. Your in the wrong place at the wrong time in a war and you get caught by a bullet or the enermy.

Our soldiers have clearly done the only possible thing.

If you look at Mark Vaile as Deputy PM and Nelson you would have to wonder why they did not have this down to pat wouldnt you.

It just goes to show that the relashonship between the two Ministers of trade is not good because there is no comunication about recognising each other in the field.

I guess it would be impossible for the trade Ministers gaurds to be clearly identified under the circumstances but were our guys?

Thats the real question. Or are our guys advised not to make their iD clear as well for their own safety.

I support the war and Saddam had PLENTY of contact with French germanns and others providing him with chemical weapons.

The real worry is where are they.

I get angry when these wimps bag our soldiers and Australia and England etc for trying to dis arm that crazy lot before they can carry out there long term plan of attacks on the west.

Lets face it if the world had not sat back and watched Hitler, he never would have been able to kill so many.

I dont Like Howard because of the lies and the unnessary cruel trade of live exports that he supports because some of his political mates are involved in, no dought making large political donations, but I agree with him on this issue one hundred percent.

Your comments are vaulable as a cit of Australia.

Thankyou De

Hi Wendy. I am a lowlife hunter who kills animals for sport.

I find it odd that you are sticking up for Aussie soldiers. Hunting has always been the sport of soldiers. In primitive societies, their is no distinction between hunters and warriors, they are the same thing. I have been a soldier, and now I am just a hunter.

I started hunting as a 13 year old on my uncles property at Marulan. There was not much to do in the school holidays out in the middle of nowhere and the rabbits were running riot all over the farm. My uncle handed me an old Sportco .22, taught me how to use it and told me to make myself usefull getting rid of the damned rabbits.

Once you accept that the animals must be killed anyway, it is a lot of fun. I really enjoy it. Killing bigger animals is more emotionally wrenching, and no hunter likes walking up on a downed creature who is dying, in pain, and terrified. That is why we practice so much to obtain the preffered "one shot kill." My trusty Ruger can put 5 shots inside a twenty cent coin at 90 metres, when I am doing my job right. Like holding my rifle steady, breathing correctly, exersizing trigger control, and using hand to eye co ordination.

I gather that you have lived all your life in a city and simply do not understand the realities of rural living.

As for David Hicks. I would walk from Sydney to Melbourne, in bare feet, on broken glass, to get in on the firing squad who would shoot the bastard.

Anth

Thank`s good post you expressed your feelings well.

Dees post was good. She pointed out a few more details.

Hicks has no loyalty to Australia Anth.That’s the end of it as far as I am concerned.

Your right about one thing> He got Caught.
Tough.

I am not anti Muslim Anth but I am certainly anti any Ausie who leaves his or her own country to fight against us.

I am sick of the lies from the Australian Government who hide behind the Vaile See Minister of Trade www.livexports.com

Alexander Downer and Mark Vaile pretty much treat the public with utter contempt.

They push live animal exports and use the tax payer’s funds to do it regardless of the fact that 90 percent want it stopped.

Yes I have far more sympathy for animals being sent live to Middle East than Hicks.
They didn’t ask to be there!
Which brings me to you Senator Fielding. We are still waiting for your good Christian values to stand up against animal cruelty.
AFIC The Australian Federation Of Islamic Council have put out several media Releases denouncing Animal cruelty involved with live exports and informing the public that they do not require animals live.

So if the Muslims are screaming about the cruelty of live animal exports what’s wrong with you Senator Fielding as a good Christian?
John Howard Downer Vaile stops your lies to the Australian Public.
Now you have Senator who represents all Christian Churches I hope the Islamic faith of Islam Give you heaps.
Who has the kindest laws of faith re animal cruelty? According to my records it’s the Muslim faith who has complained about the Australian Government lying to the public about their so called requirements of live animals for religious purposes.

The truth is you have flooded the country with cheap imports and are traitors to the Australian farmers and young job seekers.

You have sold our country out and we are in massive foreign debt.

Redneck

You should not assume things.> www.halakindmeats.com

I am country born and bred with my Grandfather and Father were bullock team drivers and farmers among other things.

I have had to shoot animals bogged and sick in the bush but I can’t say it gave me any pleasure either.

That takes a certain breed, or lack of.

There is a difference between killing for a need such as food or compassion than the pleasure of killing.

Still this was about you enjoying killing animals wasnt it.

Fun your style according to you.

The Taliban and other extreme groups give their kids guns at a young age just like you were given.I guess those poor kids don’t know the difference either.
Who was it that said? Give me the child until he is 7 and I will give you the man.

To give a thirteen year old a gun and say go off and kill anything including possibly the child using it is extremely irresponsible and one of the reasons we are trying to educate the third world countries.

David Hicks is already in custody so I don’t see your need to walk on broken glass to shoot him.

You see that’s your need to hurt the defenseless coming out again in you.

The sporting part of you if you wish.

There is a connection between shooting an unarmed man and defenseless animals.

Your living proof of it.

As I was saying there are low life’s who just enjoy killing and as you pointed out you are one of them.

If all soldiers were like you then I would have to say there is no difference between the Taliban and our own.

Fortunately I know many soldiers who do as much as they can to volunteer in our RSPCA days and work towards banning live animals exports.

I support THOSE soldiers proudly and I very much doubt any one of them would wish to shoot David Hicks in cold blood either!.

Until fairly recently a person in Australia was innocent until proven guilty. This system of justice has been one of the main differences between a dictatorship and a democracy.

Remember that David Hicks has not been tried, and has not been found guilty, so why speculate on what he may or may not have done?
If there is evidence to prove his guilt why after four years has he not been tried?
Hundreds have been released from Gitmo because there was no evidence to convict them, and they have received no compensation.

When the richest democracy in the world resorts to imprisoning people without trial what sort of message does this send to the rest of the world?

To Mr Peace.

Captured enemy combatants do not need to be tried for anything. They can simply be incarcerated until hostilities are over. Australia had a very large system of POW camps in Cowra NSW, where German, Italian and Jap prisoners were held during WW2. The USA has just as much right to hold Taliban and Al Qaida prisoners until hostilities are over in the War on Terror.

Davis Hicks was a member of an armed force that was engaged in hostilities against an Allied Army, which included Australian troops. That he was not captured by Australian Army forces is only a matter of circumstance. Such an action is a clear a case of Treason as can be imagined. Why he has not been charged with Treason is a matter far more important to me than his incarceration without charge. But if our government can not charge him because our laws have become so corrupted by political correctness, then I could not care less how long the yanks jail him. I am interested in justice, not a law that does not even recognise what is clearly criminal behaviour.

That good men have routinely ignored inconvenient laws on behalf of what they knew was best has historical precedent. Abraham Lincoln broke the US Constitution by declaring war on the Confederate South. When his own Attorney General pointed this out, Lincoln threatened to jail him. Lincoln also illegally suspended habeas corpus in order to jail his critics. Oliver Cromwell ignored the “Self Denying Ordinance” that prevented MP’s from leading armies in the field. Just as well, or Charles 1 would have won. Charles 1 was executed for “Treason”, which he himself pointed out at his trial was illogical, since Treason was defined in English law as “ hostilities against the King.” But they chopped his head off anyway, and laid the foundations of democracy throughout he world.

It's time to chop Hick's head off to defend the democracy we hold so dear.

Why does the media persist in calling him David Hicks? Why don't they respect his Islamic conversion and refer to him as Muhammad Dawood? It's the name has chosen for himself, so shouldn't the media abide by his wishes?

Redneck,
Big gun, small equipment?

Some of us prefer to hunt with bow & arrow. There's nothing like slitting a feral pig's throat and watching it's eyes glaze over while it twitches it's last.

A pity the pig doesn't get a trial either but it had it coming because it was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I see you are from the "Kill 'em all -let God sort 'em out" school of justice.

Finally sanity has prevailed and the UK has decided to let David Hicks stay and face the music in the US military court.

Kvasir - Hicks is longer a Muslim - if he ever was. According to fellow inmates who have been released, he did not behave like a Muslim - didnt fast at Ramadan or pray or any of the things Muslims are supposed to do.

He probably ate pig as well (maybe Rache's eye-glazed porker).

No doubt a fatwa for apostasy will be slapped on him in due course.

No, Rache. I'm from the "If it moves, shoot it, if it doesn't, chop it down." brigade.

But I don't want you and wendy to think I am entirely heartless, I must confess, I cry every time I pull the trigger.

Kvasir
Thankyou for your post. Yes u are correct. He can go to court with his chosen name and fight for Islam. Thats what he wanted even his dad said so. Redneck has a point about prisoners of war. Whats behind this left wing push is Anti West. As far as crying each time u pull the triger rN lets put it like this.

When the two Tasi guys were trapped down the mine we had one guy who could not wait! to get out to go hunting to kill unsuspecting innocent animals.
I mean hey wouldnt u think that being stuck there might make u respect life and re think.
The other guy Brad was rightfully sickend by Tods Calus disclosure being a kind guy who went straight home to his family when they got out.
So there is another example of breeding. You only had to glance at the idiot on 60 minutes with his Gun club t shirt[how distateful] Especially as 60 were paying.
That does not make Brad less of a man rN but more of a man.
The other guy [ tod] advertised That he had an IQ of about 0.

Thats genetic as well.

Getting a thrill from killing is about as low mentality as u can go.

The young soldiers who fought to save this country didnt go because it was fun to kill red neck.
They went to save drop kicks like u.
more the pity.
David hicks of course is another who I am told enjoys to kill animals and calls it sport.
See no matter what side these people are on they are still drop kicks.
Either way Mohamead as he calls himself is where he should b.

Locked up as a prisoner of war.

Sorry, Wendy, but you are wrong again.

The normal male human reaction to the act of killing an enemy is most commonly one of elation. For 85% of soldiers, this feeling of elation quickly transforms itself into one of depression caused by guilt. This overpowering sense of guilt usually results in a wave of suicides immediately after the cessation of hostilities.

To give you an idea of how bad this problem is, 62,500 US soldiers were killed in Vietnam. But in the twenty years following after the end of the war, an incredible 120,000 Vietnam vets committed suicide.

Over the last sixty years, armies all over the world have done a lot of reasearch into the pyschology of killing. They know that despite widespread male myths, most men are just not up to the task of killing anything higher than insects and fish. They also know that only 15% of men can kill other human beings without it affecting them psychologically, and that is why police officers are given immediate grief counseling if thay have to kill an offender in the course of their duty. Armies are now actively trying to find ways to identify and recruit these men.

No prizes for guessing which particular demographic group these men most commonly come from?

Remember Kipling.

"It's soldier this, and soldier that, and chuck him out, the brute.
But it's "savior of the country", when the guns begin to shoot."

Redneck. I can assure you my point was just that.
Many men go against their grain to survive A protect their loved ones family and country B.
So I agree with the 15 percent can kill without feeling guilty.
What I said was it took a certain type to want to shoot somebody in cold blood who could not defend themselves.
Its the same as enjoying killing animals.
you said killing animal was a lot of fun and u would walk on broken gless to shoot Hicks
I simply pointed out the connection.
Although I certainly would not loose any sleep over Hicks because unlike the poor animals Hes not innocent.
On that at least we agree
Good Evening red Neck.

Good evening, Wendy.

So, shooting human beings is OK, but shooting animals is not OK?

Hee hee hee.

I love debating with people who have Obsessive-Compulsive disorders. Their logic is a treasure.

Redneck

You seem unable to grasp the most simply debate.

I said anybody who thought it was fun to kill either people or animals was mentally ill.

You said killing animals was a lot of fun.

You made a similar remark about the 15 percent of soldiers you ! claim enjoy killing.

The point is anybody who enjoys killing anything either person or animal is a low life.
Taking a life is not something normal people enjoy and it should only be done if it is absolutlty neccesary not for fun. You expressed your wish to shoot Hicks in a fireing squad. To me thats extream. They already have him locked up.

So why the extra bullet from you? The only answer I can see is because as you said its fun to kill animals.

I simply pointed out the facts that there is a connection between low lifes who enjoy killing animals calling it sport with people who enjoy killing people.
You came along and said > I am one of the low lifes that think its fun to kill animals and I would like to kill Hicks Too.

The connection should be clear even to you.

I dont like Hicks but also dont agree with shooting him.
Leave him rot in goal.

Rational sense wins out over arrant nonsense at last.

The US Supreme Court has ruled that the Bush administration does not have the authority to try terrorism suspects by military tribunal.

Justices upheld the challenge by Osama Bin Laden's ex-driver to his trial at Guantanamo, saying the proceedings violated Geneva Conventions.

Maybe now Hicks will get his day in court. Maybe now we can see justice be done.

Holding people indefinitely without trial is simply wrong. If rapists and murderers can receive a fair trial, an idiot like Hicks deserves no less.

What a brutal fouth reich we are a part of. The US Supreme Court has confirmed, step one: that we officially have been told lies, propaganda, misinformation, and that our Governments are in breach of UN conventions, US law, and the Geneva Conventions. George W Bush is now "alleged" a war criminal by his own Supreme Court by his dictatorship.

All reference to Hicks must use "allegation" now that law upholds democracy, as you are innocent before proven guilty in a court of law. Tidy up your language, the fourth reich may no longer be in control after today.

The war on Afghanastan and Iraq was illegal from the start as it was illegal for Australia as a signatory to the UN Legal system, to invade a sovereign country that poses no threat to our sovereign country. There is an "allegation" from the Senate that John Howard is a war criminal.

Now that it is fact that the US is in breach of the Geneva Conventions, and US Law, Guantanamo Bay itself is illegal. The pressure for a Presidential Impeachment begins. Bush's days are crumbling right this moment. This makes Watergate look like a wee drop compared to Supreme Court's desicision to "allege" that George W Bush in the same league as Saddam Huissein. A criminal.

David Hicks

left Australia to go fight!For Islam.

He will be in court as a prisoner of war.

Your stupid comments about Howard are so off beat that one might well wonder which tribe you have joined.


Now as far as justise is concerned look no further than the world trade center and the the bombs much closer to home were 86 of our own were blown up.[ The murdering bastards who TARGET Citizens]
The difference IS we have gone to the bother of trying NOT to hit citizens.

The dirty filthy low life mongrels. The pigs!

They rape women then stone them to death because they are no longer virgins.

The F wits!. [ Ring any bells yet?]

Perhaps you also support to bunch of low life garbage bastards who raped the girls in Sydney because they beleive its their right because of their backward culture.


Something tells me your on center link too!

PM if you are reading this . . Piss them all off!

If I find Bin Larden before you do I will treat him the same as he has treated our prisoners of war!.
Which is no court case torture and chop his head off.
These are the rules of YOUR budies.
David hick was one of them.
Live by the sword and die by the sword.
See u in the battle field. I will be the one not watching my langauge when it comes to that low life bunch and looking for you who supports them.
The other thing is there stupid covering their faces and looking at you through two slits.
For god sake they are all crazy. I think the PM should stop that in this country.
We are Too tolerant. Its OUR country and we like it free of low lifes.
They good ones can stay and the disloyal ones should go.
I look forward to hiring a Santa for each street corner in Lakemba this year.
Long Live The Queen

Well, I wonder if anyone managed to read this far down through through the noise?

On the topic of terrorism MADE IN THE USA, for those who missed The Power of Nightmares (BBC), here is a little reminder of one of the cardinal facts:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13600653/site/newsweek

DO enjoy!

Chris thanks
The other facts are the world trade center and other attacks on citizens

Do enjoy

Other facts hey Wendy? Then explain this:

1. Why are 7 of the 19 9/11 hijackers still alive and living normal lives?

2. Why was the world shown footage of Bin Laden conversing with his fellow terrorists about the 9/11 attacks faked?

- Bin Laden wearing a gold ring, forbidden by Islamic law
- Bin Laden writing with his right hand despite the FBIs website stating that he is left handed.
- Bin Laden not even looking anything like himself. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html

3. Why is it that the only video footage of the Pentagon strike we get to see is a time-lapse video that doesn’t show a plane hitting it, yet the Pentagon is surrounded by video cameras? If there’s no truth to the conspiracy theories then why don’t they just show all the other footage that shows a plane hitting the only wall built for to withstand that sort of impact (a handy coincidence)?

4. Why is it that we still haven’t seen the footage from the cameras from the rooftops of all the hotels surrounding the Pentagon that the plane would have passed over? Not to mention the cameras on the highways that the plane would have flown strait over?

Why the need for all the secrecy?

Yesterday John Howard said that he had no sympathy for David Hicks as someone who was affiliated with Al Quaida.

Natasha Stott-Despoija condemned Howard for passing judgement on Hicks before he has been found guilty of anything.

I rarely agree with Stott-Despoija but this time she is dead right, and Howard was grossly out of place.

It is a fundamental tenet of Australian law and indeed of democracy to treat people as innocent until proven guilty or shown to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. This tenet is very highly compromised a lot of the time, but it is surely the duty of our Prime Minister to uphold it. He needs to be neutral with respect to Hicks, until guilt or innocence has been shown in a court of law.

And he must make sure that his strong negative leanings towards Hicks don’t lead to him not pushing as hard as he can for a trial to be held as soon as possible. The situation of very long detention without charge and then further very long detention without a trial is so grossly antidemocratic that Howard should be literally shoving it down Bush’s neck by now that the issue must be resolved as soon as possible.

Speaking Of

Right Royal Pricks and on this ocashion I am not refering to Howard i hope ASIO and our few Good men Get this.
When you read some of the Rubbish and anti west crap on the forum one might wonder which country we we in.
Sorry but you dont see the muslims world wide screaming out for justice or helping even one person of the west.

Mr Howard I hope you at least have details on these Anti Ausies. Mohamedad [hick the prick]wanted to support the stoneing of people especially women and the rape and murders.

Thats what he went to defend.

He is a prisoner of war and unless we are going to give every prisoner of war a court case I cant see why he should be any differently.

Howard is as entiled to express his personal feelings as anybody else. He did no more than what we have all been doing for weeks now.

If you want a federal case made out of it perhaps we the public should ask for a bill to be passed to piss you the traitors off like Jinks or lock them up along with Hicks[ah> Sorry Mohamedad].

We really MUST stop bringing this crap into our country because they are breeding here like rats. I suspect Jinks as being one of them.

The PM needs now to round up rubbish like u Jinks and P them off to a muslim Country where they will be more happy.

Good On Howard for Having the guts To do the right thing.

PM WHILE YOU ARE AT IT>TRY SAYING TO THEM> IF U WANT OUR MEAT U CAN BUY IT IN A BOX BECAUSE WE WANT OUR JOBS AND WE ARE NOT ENGAGING IN THIS BARBARIC CRUELTY ANOTHER MINUTE WHILE YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING.

Wow Wendy, you are so full of hate!

I knew some of the victims from 9 /11 and their families. They don't blame the entire religion of Islam, and neither do I.

I also taught a few of the kids who were in the Bali bomb. Again I was saddened and went off my food for a week and had to be force fed. I was overwhelmed by sadness.

I have protested before about the revenge attacks against the American soldiers. I am not against Australia or the US. You simply fail to comprehend what you read.

You say that you think I am on "center link" and I just love trash!

Wendy, it is spelt "Centrelink". You are wrong again, and you wouldn't have a clue would you? So are mean, full of hate, you probably don't care.

Now a casual teacher, I am actually a Santa: it fits in with "Medowbanking" in the NSW school system. No, I don't work for them fulltime. I have other jobs too: multi-skilled.

Yes I, as a Santa, have worked in Lakemba. The locals love Santa when I am there. Some of the Islamic kids are very shy about Santa, and it takes about 12 rounds before they approach the scary man in the costume. I welcome them as Santa always does, yet perplexed by their shyness.

They usually break down and cry. Why? Because they were told that Santa hates Islamic children by their christian friends at school. She was 5 years old Wendy!

Santa is timeless. Chritianity does not own Santa. I relay the message to those "friends" to have a Merry Christmas, be good for Ramadam or Hannika. Santa celebrates them all: the spirit of St. Nicholas.

Now you get the joke of "SaintFletcher". Santa loves ramadam and also celebrates for Mahamed, Buddha, Krishna, whoever too. Santa loves all children.

Your hate is futile. Have you been a good girl Wendy? What a sad little miser you are. Merry Christmas!

Saint Santa.
Some of my best friends are Muslim . If you cant understand I hate Anti Australian Attitude I cant help you.
I hate extream nuts who blow people up.
No actually I pity them.
What I really hate are these do godders who dont know the meaning of the word loyalty.
I am sick to death of them.
I work all day everyday by the way with Muslim People with the same good intentions i share.

I hate people coming over here trying to take control of our country.

I dont hate all the people.

There is good and bad amoung all races. See you on the street corner at Lakemba at Christmas.

I will be giving out free bundy and Cokes.

If anybody wants to complain thats a sin in this country to drink alcohol I would hate to hear that too.

Understand the meaning behind the word >is in the way its meant.

Here are my Muslim contacts .

My companys name is Halal Kind Meats. www.halakindmeats.com

Food for thought so to speak Santa.

Well the Bundy and Coke works for me Wendy. Maybe this is Cricket afterall. What can I say but give a jolly ho ho ho, as Santa tends to say. Cheers to the judicial system making the right decision, what ever that may be.

To Saint Santa

You can say you will lend a hand with my Muslim NFP Groups and Animal Welfare Groups . Whilst we have been blessed by great people such as Dr Ali of AFIC and many others of AFIC there is not enough movement in forming groups of Multi religion. This has! to be done and done quickly.
If the Government had got it right it would have been a number one cab off the rank. They are too many them and us! groups.

Everybody is always too busy .

Its no secret that I am also pushing the Animal Welfare Groups and Have pleaded to Animals Australia and Animal Liberation many times to work together to join us all Muslims and Ausies in Animal Welfare groups. Its about time they listended because if they want to continue to blame muslims for The Cruelty Of Live Exports nothing will ever be acheived to break down the barrier of lies told by the government and the MYTHS>
The Governments misleading the public and darn right right faulse information over the claiming muslims require animals live has not helped either as most Ausies wrongfully blame muslim People.

We must not let them change our country and we must stand up against extream idiots BUT we must also ALL of us get to know our neighbours.

If they WONT mix We send them back in a flash!

WE drink our bundy and most dont mind.

The ones who abuse Santa and The Bundy Lady Get deported with a kick up the arse.

Thank you Dr Ali Of AFIC .

Here is the Group we ask All muslim people to join. www.livexports.com.

Muslim people must also do there bit other than run clean up Australia Day.
Tell you what though> DR ALI of AFIC is miles! ahead Of Steve Feilding and Family First.

put Like That and It really Does Get one thinking.

Give Me DR Ali Of AFIC against family First anyday.

Oh and David Hicks is still A Dick.

Chris Shaw[ darn] Forgotton the last name] through all the introduction.

Well there you go chris. Nice and quiet now.


If you dont get upset Chris about innocent people being Aimed at.
if you dont get upset about Australians being bullied by do gooders[ for the enermy] then I cant hear you either.

Your so busy writing your three names and bagging me personally that I rekon I will just keep working to help the good people and kick the others up the bum.

Sorry to be so noisey about it.

Mmm wonder where that leaves you.
dream on chriss Three names.
I think you are > Up Your Self.
Mind you thats just my thoughts.

God bless Australia and the little man who made it possible for this bunch of jerks to even live here.

Wendy

I suspect you might just get along famously with David Hicks.

Call it womens' intuition. Someonething tells me you're similar in personality.

Dizzy Lizzy (thanks for the nickname)

Dizzy

You certainly know how to earn your name.

I have many muslim friends, Hick the dick is not one of them.

Considering he is a solider fighting for Islam I take take as a most personal insult!

USA have done nothing wrong as I see it.

The guys a prisoner who admitted he left Australia to fight for islam.

Let him stay there then.

Ah but No. Now he is an Australian again or even a pom.

Good god try to think of something to say if you are going to post.

You remind me of that Jesica whatever her name is.

We used to have a saying in our house when we were growing up which was>

Please engage your brain before putting your mouth in gear.

Guess your family didnt have that one.

Wendy

Yes, I am very Dizzy after reading some of your posts. Your mouth shoots off at the speed of lightning. Interesting how you berate bloggers as 'dumb'. Sort of a Seinfeld moment.

Dizzy

I think The Person who put this up about David hicks might at least expect people to stick to the topic.

For that reason I wont post here anymore.

Clearly you have some sort of mental health issue.



I suggest you seek help.

Wendy

Please don't go. I love your posts.

Dizzy