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The Forum > Article Comments > Wanderings in a desert > Comments

Wanderings in a desert : Comments

By Donna Jacobs Sife, published 9/6/2006

The loss of innocence in the Red Centre of Australia.

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At the very end of this article it is noted that "Donna Jacobs Sife is an award winning storyteller, educator and writer," who is skilled in drama and "creative writing".

Indeed one has to be very creative to have James Cook, as she puts it, "[naming] that land Manly, because of the marvellous specimens of humankind he saw". Trouble is that the British person who named that small part of the Sydney region 'Manly' was Governor Arthur Phillip, almost 18 years after Cook's voyage along the east coast.

Jacobs Sife also notes that the Aboriginal people of Uluru are "damaged by the fenced areas of crown land so that they cannot roam as they should". Huh?? Has Jacobs Sife bothered to look at a map? The Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park is surrounded by other areas of Aboriginal land, while the nearest example of Crown Land would be hundreds of kilometres away. There is nothing to prevent them 'roaming' as she puts it.

Lastly, it is "foetal alcohol syndrome" not "faetal alcohol syndrome" but then again why should I expect an award winning educator to get her spelling right?
Posted by EnerGee, Friday, 9 June 2006 10:13:23 AM
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"..robbing them of their traditional life and coming with an expectation that they become like us."

Come on. They very idea of these camps was to allow them NOT to become like us, but they and their do-gooder white mates decided that they had to have all of the advantages of white civilization without the responsibilities.

The author can cry and say sorry as much as she likes. There is no hope for aborgines as long as they cling to, and are encouraged to cling to by the luvvies, a way of life that is long gone.

"And the greatest sorrow of all is for the loss of knowledge that we so desperately need to save this earth of ours. To save ourselves."

Rave on! Aboriginal aboriginals cannot save themselves, let alone Australia and the rest of us. Indigenous people were expected to die out over time, as have all other civilizations incapable of changing with the times. If they had been left alone, this would have happened in the case of the older ones, and the younger ones would have assimilated. Thanks to damn do-gooders, the natural outcome has not occurred.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 9 June 2006 11:18:04 AM
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Thanks Energee for the correction regarding Phillip not Cook, absolutely correct, and the article has been amended. Although I would make the point that the sentiment is unchanged regardless of who said it. The spelling mistake was not mine, but an editorial blunder, which happens sometimes in this world of spell check. And as for the fenced issue - looking at a map will not give you the sense that I had when I was there at the Aboriginal Community of Mutajulu. Some things need to be seen to be believed. You seem to be a little concerned with form, and resistant to the substance of the article, which will remain the same regardless of typos, maps, and Captains.
Donna (author)
Posted by lyrebird, Friday, 9 June 2006 11:22:52 AM
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Hmmm! I notice that we have now changed "faetal alcohol syndrome" to "fetal alcohol syndrome", which is the American spelling. Given that even The Sydney Morning Herald uses "foetal" - or it did in August 2005 - couldn't we stick with the Australian spelling, Donna?

As for the "fenced issue", I too have visited the Mutitjulu community (note correct spelling, Donna) and didn't have any sense of feeling fenced in. Your notion that Anangu - the Aboriginal people of the Rock - are "damaged by the fenced areas of crown land" is entirely spurious.

Yes, I am concerned with form because by getting things right in an article, then one can at least trust the opinions of that author. This article is/was shot through with so many inaccuracies and so much emotional hyperventilation that it contributes nothing to the national discussion on indigenous issues.
Posted by EnerGee, Friday, 9 June 2006 2:57:56 PM
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Liegh, your frontal lobotomy is still well overdue.
Posted by Rainier, Friday, 9 June 2006 4:25:46 PM
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Another article of someone moved by emotion but not willing to face up to facts. How on earth is saying sorry going to change the abuse that has been going on in the Aboriginal community for hundreds of years (yes well before European settlement). When are we going to get some journalist who are more concerned about the people than they are their fanciful black arm band view of history.
Posted by runner, Friday, 9 June 2006 4:55:09 PM
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What an indictment that this declaration of despair should bring about such contempt from a mere glimpse of Uluru.

Imagine, a well-meaning aborigine, traveling through the suburbs of Adelaide, looking for a school to entreat with story-telling. Despairing at the plight of spiritual dislocation and environmental disenfranchisement returns to accusations of historical and grammatical error and cultural intolerance.
Posted by Neil Hewett, Friday, 9 June 2006 7:18:55 PM
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A great article Donna. Don't be put off my those nit-picking fools who pick on minutae because they have nothing to contribute. Keep up the good work I think you have described how many of us feel about this issue and we all need to speak out about it. Because of your article I will try harder to make my voice heard as well.
Posted by Priscillian, Friday, 9 June 2006 9:29:26 PM
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At the end of her article Donna Jacobs Sife suggests that "the greatest sorrow of all is for the loss of knowledge that we so desperately need to save this earth of ours". It would help us all if Ms Sife could explain what this knowledge is ....

Is it to live as hunter-gatherers? Not really relevant when there are now more than 20 million of us on this continent alone.

Is it to worship rocks as being the "sacred" creations of ancestral beings? I'm sorry but Uluru wasn't created by the ancestors of contemporary Anangu, anymore than the rocks of the Scottish Highlands were created by my elementary ancestors.

Ms Sife says that the traditional owners "communicate their spirituality with enormous dignity". Which no doubt explains why the Mutitjulu community looks particularly trashed by these custodians.

Next time she is out there she might also like to ask why it is that Anangu women can't visit the Valley of the Winds at Kata Tjuta and why Anangu regard Kata Tjuta as being even more important than Uluru. It's got something to do with the fact that Kata Tjuta is a place of secret men's business and the over-arching misogyny of their Aboriginal culture.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Friday, 9 June 2006 11:19:38 PM
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While agreeing that Donna's article was a little long on emotion, I am rather disappointed with the debate on this thread. Apparently some posters believe that compassion is bad and emotional, but that judgemental bilious spite is good. To freight your posts with loaded terms like "black arm band view" "do-gooders" "rave on", etc and then complain about emotion makes me laugh. Why don't you stick to "the facts"?

THE FACTS, of course are truly dispiriting. Indigenous health is a national disgrace. High rates of diabetes, heart disease, alcoholism and substance abuse lead to life expectancy 20 YEARS less than the national average. There are also high levels of infant and maternal mortality as well as chronic skin and eye infections etc. Recent research suggests that something as simple as a town swimming pool can make a big difference to child health in these communities.

Unemployment at Mutitjulu is a real problem, as highlighted by the Alice Springs News http://www.alicespringsnews.com.au/0940.html Amazing isn't it, that a tourist resort (owned by Lend-Lease) employing nearly 1,000 people doesn't have a training program for local kids.
Posted by Johnj, Saturday, 10 June 2006 12:18:15 AM
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Well, to start with Donna, the never was any "stolen generation(s)".

Just like "The Jews burned down the Reichstag" story told to the Hitler Youth by Germany's incumbent "politically correct" in 1938, the "stolen generation(s)" was a little "story" fabricated by a people with a "blame the whites for everything" mindset. You could probably recognise these people, Donna, they appear to be exactly the same one who have a "blame the Israelis for everything" attitude today.

Donna asks "What have we done to threse people?" Well, actually Donna, we have improved their lot quite a lot.

Aboriginal people lived as about a degraded as existence pre white settlement as could be imagined. We are talking about people who had not even reached the stage of using animal skins to keep themselves warm. I know two accounts of early settlers describing the rivers of green mucus running down the faces of aboriginal people. This was because most, if not all, aborigal people in cold areas of Australia were suffering from respiratory diseases. Aboriginal people could only keep themselves warm by huddling very close to smoky fires at night, which also gave them some protection from mosquitoes.

The traditional extreme brutality which aboriginal men meted out to aboriginal women was even witnessed by Governer Phillip who personally intervened to stop Bennelong from bashing a young aboriginal woman to death. Aboriginal women today are afforded some protection by our caring government, although a recent court case involving the anal rape of an unstolen 14 year old aboriginal girl indicates that some magistrates consider traditional stone age aboriginal culture to still be appropriate today.

Cold hard facts can make less appealing reading than emotionally wrenching fiction employing vivid verbs and metaphorical adjectives, Donna, but entertaining fairytales are no substitute for objective analysis.
Posted by redneck, Saturday, 10 June 2006 8:13:21 AM
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I find the poorly informed (as always?) prejudice in some of the comments above astonishing, given this is 2006, not 1906. For your information, Aboriginal people that lived in cold climates did both make and dress in warm clothing (maybe some of you need to go and have a look at the magnificent possum skin cloak in the National Museum in Canberra: in fact maybe some of you need to change out of your pyjamas and get out more!). In Victoria, Aboriginal people made elaborate shelters due to the cold climate (reference first chapter of John Archer's book "Building a Nation", a history of Australian architecture which begins, as it should, with Aboriginal architecture: it includes photos).

As for the treatment of women in some Aboriginal cultures (another furphy: there was never one single Aboriginal culture in Australia: we don't even know for sure how many different languages were spoken in pre-European Australia, but researchers know there were hundreds) in the 1800s, there are accounts that some Aboriginal cultures weren't very nice to their women, but I'd have to say at the time many other cultures in the world at the time weren't too nice to women either. That is not a reason for rejecting a culture as having no value.

As for current violations of women's rights in Aboriginal or, for that matter, any other culture: the declaration of human rights, which includes the rights of men, women and children, should always take precedence over cultural values. Sadly, this is not the case in many parts of the world. Clearly something needs to be done to enable Aboriginal people to take these rights for granted as other Australians do.

Posted by Not JohnJ but his spouse
Posted by Johnj, Saturday, 10 June 2006 9:58:36 AM
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There is no place for a stone-age culture in the modern world. From the moment civilization finds them, primitive people are doomed.

Thanks to white, anti-assimilation guilt-trippers and social engineers, the demise of Australian indigenous people has been, and continues to be, a long, drawn out process, with indigenes paying the price so that white prigs can feel good.

No matter how much whiteys who think it’s cute having a living anthropological museum, or black self-serving activists and lefty politicians, beat up indigenous problems and blame everyone else for those problems, nothing will change.

The only solution is to rescue people young enough to respond to education and life-skill training in the wider community. If that’s still called “stealing” by the white wimps and black political activists, stiff cheese - some women living in remote communities in SA actively encourage it. It gives kids a chance, and it keeps the girls away from the old men
Posted by Leigh, Saturday, 10 June 2006 10:54:59 AM
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A wonderful example of ,"How to write Melodrama in ten easy lessons".
People like this author will persist in trying to keep Aboriginals from gaining a lifestyle with dignity , independence and choice.
Children of aboriginal descent deserve to to do better than living in some backward camp at the mercy of the elder men of the tribe.
White children would never be permitted to be reared in syuch a way, why should non white children be given no chance? That is total discrimination.
Posted by mickijo, Saturday, 10 June 2006 2:12:51 PM
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redneck, you keep citing authors without names, research without provenance, facts without proof. If you're such a highly intelligent white man why don't you use a more scientific approach to prop up your redneck arguments? Is it because you are just barely literate, and not educated? Or is it because your momma (or is it your older sister?)never showed you how
Posted by Rainier, Saturday, 10 June 2006 4:34:48 PM
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Johnj and spouse,

The sentiments you express show many are on the right track. Realism backed by fact, awareness and sensitivity. Absolutely no condescending manner or blame, just an acknowledgement with an obvious concern. I see those attitudes in many many Australians and it gives those who really do care great heart.
Posted by keith, Saturday, 10 June 2006 5:29:37 PM
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To Rainier;

So, Leigh is long overdue for a frontal lobotomy? You've had yours done already, I presume? Or is the lack of brain cells in your case due to petrol sniffing?

I don't really know why Leigh, Redneck, Mickijo and other such contributors even bother to try to reason with ratbags like Rancitas, Ash, Marilyn Shepherd and all the other inhabitants of Fairyland. They are beyond reason, as all zealots are.

The OLO forum is far and away the most elaborate and technically elegant site for people to have their say. It's a shame that so much of its content, both at the article and comments level comes from the bleeding heart left-wing loonies, such as Donna Jacobs Sife.

Her current article is a contrived piece of "creative" garbage, and makes me want to throw up. She finishes off with - "And the greatest sorrow of all is the loss of the knowledge we so desperately need to save this earth of ours. To save ourselves”.

Savage Pencil, you ask what is this "knowledge"? Now, where are your manners? That is a leading question, one that you shouldn't ask of a bleeding heart like Donna. That sentence is from the same grab-bag of pompous and vacuous statements as "jail is not answer", "war is not the answer", or the benefits of the "diversity of multiculturalism".The "answers" in all such instances are obviously self-evident to the morally enlightened minority, and need no further explanation.
Posted by ZORRO, Saturday, 10 June 2006 6:45:24 PM
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Zorro

I've met Rainier and if you think he has had a frontal lobotomy then I'd like to have one just like his too.

Oh and for the record I'd be as far left as Margaret Thatcher or Ronnie Reagan.
Posted by keith, Saturday, 10 June 2006 9:08:34 PM
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To ZORRO

Interesting comments. Donna Jacob Sife's article while admittedly a "contrived piece" doesn't actually make me want to be sick though. I'd just like an answer from her and those of her ilk as to what the "knowledge" IS that Aboriginal Australia had/has that we so desperately need to save this Earth of ours. Come on Donna, it can't be that hard.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Saturday, 10 June 2006 9:55:44 PM
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Savage Pencil and others are treating Donna's article like an academic thesis or political speech. Donna is talking in poetic hyperbole, her writing is passionate, heartfelt and lyrical. It would be nice if most of us were a bit more like that. I agree that Donna has not been accurate and that some of her statements lack the iron clad substance that some of you others seem to strive for but give her a go. Instead of sniping from the sidelines then try writing your own article on the subject, or any subject for that matter. At least Donna cares about others and that is more than I can say about most voting Australians and the embarrassing arse licking goverment they have elected
Posted by Priscillian, Saturday, 10 June 2006 10:21:57 PM
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To Priscillian

As EnerGee mentioned in the very first comment on this article, the author had James Cook and not Arthur Phillip naming Manly - a glaring error which has now been corrected. As EnerGee also noted, the Anangu people at Mutitjulu - the small community near Uluru - aren't fenced in.

Donna Jacobs Sife may be "talking in poetic hyperbole" as you put it but while I may admire someone's passion this is greatly lessened by her purple prose, inaccuracies and bald statements.

Funny that you should mention that I am treating Donna's article like an "academic thesis" because I am sure that a true educator would return unmarked such a piece of unmitigated twaddle if it was handed in as an assignment.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Saturday, 10 June 2006 11:42:31 PM
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quod erat demonstrandum
Posted by Priscillian, Sunday, 11 June 2006 12:16:53 AM
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To Keith

Maybe you've already had one and just don't realise it?
Posted by ZORRO, Sunday, 11 June 2006 4:31:49 AM
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Zorro,

Well said. I don't, however, bother to argue with the loony left. They can say what they like about me. It has no effect. I use this site to express my own views. Unlike the arrogant ratbags you so aptly describe, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything; just expressing my point of view.

Unfortunately, there is a small group - those you named are part of it - abusing OLO by insulting other people in the belief that they can prevent them from putting their views. They have nothing original themselves, so they simply use abuse in a pathetic attempt to put people down and shut them up. This is typical of a certain type of Australia who thinks personal abuse and a lot of noise will get them what they want. It is quite laughable to me and, I'm sure, to Redneck, Mikjo and you as well.

Just a quick addendum to my last post. The kids mentioned always return from their school holidays in the remote settlements stick-thin, needing treatment for worms, and smelling something awful. Something else for the digusting do-gooders to add to their stories of the noble and picturesque wild blackfella.
Posted by Leigh, Sunday, 11 June 2006 11:14:38 AM
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Firstly, thanks Keith for your kind words. Thanks Leigh for reminding us that you're not trying to "convince anyone of anything". You certainly haven't convinced me, I require something beyond empty sloganeering.

When in an earlier post I complained about "judgemental bilious spite", some people obviously took it as a challenge. Posts have abounded with "pompous vacuous statements", "bleeding heart left-wing loonies", "zealots" and my old favourite "stone-age culture". Hyperbole, cliches and invective are no substitute for rational debate. Many posters seem more interested in bashing their ideological enemies than in actually engaging with the issues. Of course its easier to dish out insults than to critically examine the problem.

So to the facts, seeing as no-one else has bothered with them. An excellent start is http://www.healthinfonet.ecu.edu.au which has more indigenous health stats than is probably good for your health. There's a paper on alcohol consumption in the NT http://espace.lis.curtin.edu.au/archive/00000132/ Interestingly indigenous alcohol consumption is about 25% greater than non-indigenous, but my anecdotal experience suggests that alcohol is a serious problem for the whole community in the NT.

After 200-some years of European settlement, the Australian environment is a mess. Salination, erosion, water pollution, depleted fisheries, coral bleaching, feral pests, weed invasion etc etc. Various posters have asked what Aborigines can teach us whitefellas. Perhaps, as they've been here [insert number of choice] thousand years, it might be they can tell us about "respect for the land". It seems to me that moralising about the superiority of European culture has a hollow ring when we think about the problems we face.
Posted by Johnj, Sunday, 11 June 2006 12:52:55 PM
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Those of us who are accused of racism ,bigotry and all the rest of the over used outworn slogans, regard such statements as the tripe they are. They cannot hurt us because we know what a shallow root they come from.
I wish for nothing more than aboriginals have the same chances , the same education as the rest of this country.
Why shouldn't there be aboriginal nurses, doctors ? The reason we haven't got them is because there is buckly's chance of any Aborigine gaining the education to achieve the necessary degrees.
This is totally wrong, surely the aboriginal people would rather be treated by their own.
And as long as they are held back in some rotten outback camp , they are doomed to live a life of nothing.
And if that is racist, so be it.
Posted by mickijo, Sunday, 11 June 2006 2:51:07 PM
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Leigh to Zorro

"This is typical of a certain type of Australia who thinks personal abuse and a lot of noise will get them what they want. It is quite laughable to me and, I'm sure, to Redneck, Mikjo and you as well."

Zorro to Rancitas:

"I can imagine you frothing at the mouth as you finished off your bile-ridden diatribe about mainstream Aussies in a fury of capital letter words. Go get your crayons and finish off your colouring-in books instead of posting drivel to this forum. Better still, get a life. You’re ravings clearly indicate that you’re a bloody idiot, Rancitas, and that is all the time I will waste on you."

Yes Leigh, whatever you say Leigh, you have no credibity, as even the most "gullible and ignorant" can see
Posted by rancitas, Sunday, 11 June 2006 4:48:42 PM
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In the Alice Springs News of August 31, 2005 (http://www.alicespringsnews.com.au/1235.html), Gregory Andrews, who was the manager of the Mutitjulu Working Together Project, says that "The use of motor vehicles for a few months before disposing of them when they break down is a visible manifestation of economic passivity and waste in Mutitjulu." The continued illegal disposal of broken down vehicles had created what one person referred to as a "World Heritage car dump".

Yet according to Johnj these same creators of the World Heritage car dump can teach us whitefellas about "respect for the land".

I'd suggest that Johnj and his ilk take a visit to Mutitjulu and see how little respect is actually shown for the land that they live on by many people within that Anangu Aboriginal community.
Posted by EnerGee, Sunday, 11 June 2006 5:52:16 PM
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Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languagesResearch indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languagesResearch indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.

Research of these posts indicates that post invasion there are many distinct racist groups that are trying to undermine other distinct racial groups and their cultures. This is racism
Posted by rancitas, Sunday, 11 June 2006 6:01:22 PM
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Thanks EnerGee, for a post of some substance, but go easy on the sarcasm. The full Greg Andrews article may be viewed at http://www.bennelong.com.au/articles/pdf/gandrews2006.pdf Please don't take this as an endorsement of the Bennelong Society, who are too much like a mouthpiece for Fed Govt indigenous policy for my taste.

I haven't been to Mutitjulu, but have been to a few communities in Central Australia, ranging from good to abominable. I've seen the petrol bowsers in cages, the wrecked houses, the rubbish and the dogs. A friend (who has done work in quite a number of Pitjantjatjara, Ngaanyatjarra and Yankunytjatjara communities) rates Mutitjulu as one of the worst. The wrecked cars are perhaps the most tangible symbol of a truly disfunctional community, but by comparison with petrol-sniffing, alcoholism or domestic violence this is a minor problem.

I don't mean to romanticise Aboriginal people, but I am convinced that some (not all) do have a deep attachment to their land. Some (for example) will say, "I can't tell you about this country, my land is 200 km over there". I don't believe that European custodianship of Australia is anything to brag about, given the problems we face.

Mickijo, you don't need to go to "some rotten outback camp" to find squalor, poverty and hopelessness. Even a cursory glance at the town camps of Alice Springs will show the same things. A "dry" camp in the desert can be a much superior place to one of the Alice Springs town camps. I agree that education, along with decent housing, healthcare, less grog and more jobs would go a long way to remedying the problems. But as Greg Andrews puts it, you need "appropriate consultation, compassion, and timing".
Posted by Johnj, Sunday, 11 June 2006 9:48:33 PM
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What the bleep has happened to "rancitas". Too much copy and paste if you ask me - no doubt research will prove it.

To quote him again: "Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages."

However research would also indicate that there were no pyramids, temples, monuments or even permanent buildings of any size in pre-1788 Australia. Yet indigenous people managed to erect these in what today is Cambodia, Mexico, Micronesia, Peru, Zimbabwe, etc, etc, etc.

Affixing stories to natural objects is something any child could do.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Sunday, 11 June 2006 10:55:39 PM
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To JohnJ Part 1

All the power in aboriginal cultures resided in the whims of the Old Men. The Old Men owned all of the women and sexually abused the young boys during periodic "initiation" ceremonies. The tribe simply worked to keep the Old Men in stone age luxury. The Old Men got all of the choicest cuts of meat while the tribe got the leftovers.

Young boys were "stolen" from their mothers at around age 11, where they underwent a painful tribal ceremony where a tooth was usually ritually knocked, out and their foreskins removed with a sharp rock. (ouch) Those that did not die of septicaemia then became "hunters". They were forbidden to ever talk to women again, even their mothers and sisters. All of their social life revolved around life with older boys, who became their totemic brothers.

Other "initiations" followed, one particularly gruesome one being the cutting of a slot above the head of the penis to make two urinary tracts. Why in God's name they did that will never be known, but we are seeing the cultural practices of very primitive people. But the result was that the tribes men who inevitably underwent this ordeal could never again stand to urinate. After white settlement, those initiated aboriginal men who had escaped from tribal life used to laugh at tribal aboriginal men who had undergone this initiation procedure, they used to call them "whistlers."

The purpose of these continuing “initiations” during the life of aboriginal boys was to terrorise them into accepting the unquestioned authority of the Old Men.

For the girls it was not much better. The tribes young girls were handed over to the Old Men at puberty for their amusement. Some girls had their little finger on the right hand amputated to purportedly make it easier for them to dig for roots and yams. The female offspring of these pubescent girls was then promised to men already in the late thirties or forties as future "wife’s." Any young aboriginal Romeo and Juliet’s who tried to run away together were hunted down and killed.
Posted by redneck, Monday, 12 June 2006 8:13:32 AM
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Your reference to a possum skin coat is unknown to me and I would love to know when it was manufactured. Lieutenant Watkins Tench who was on the First Fleet wrote in his book that all of the aborigines he saw were entirely naked. He wrote that when the cold weather arrived. "The aboriginal people suffered terribly, all they could do was retreat to their caves and shiver."

The legal system of aboriginal communities was novel. It was not unnaturally administered by the Old Men. One of the central aspects of aboriginal law was if a man or boy died of any natural or accidental cause, somebody was responsible who had to pay with their life. The culprit was assumed to have used witchcraft to "sing" the departed to death. There were various ways of ascertaining who the culprit was, but basically, if you were somebody that the Old Men either considered a burden or that did not like, you were dead.

However this did have the benefit of keeping the population down and stopped the tribe getting too big. Old aboriginal women were rented out to the young men by the Old Men for sex and were simply murdered when they got too old and became a burden.

When white people first made contact with aboriginal tribes there were often armed clashes. But the reason why Australia did not have the decades long continuing armed conflict with hostile tribes which the Americans had with their primitive native people, was because the young aboriginal men and women quickly saw that the coming of the white men was a chance for a much better life. They walked away from the tribal system in droves.

On the frontier they were needed, and they quickly adjusted to life working for the white men as trackers, fencers, general labourers, carters and they were exceptional stockmen. The young women became exceptional stockwomen, domestic help and often the wives of lonely pioneering men. . It is interesting to note that white people who's families have lived in remote areas for generations display traces of aboriginal ancestry.
Posted by redneck, Monday, 12 June 2006 8:20:47 AM
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Tradition wrapped up in cloaks of possum

Barmah Forest Cloak
Artist: Treahna Hamm

By Robin Usher, Arts Review - The Age
March 13, 2006

The skill of making possum-skin cloaks disappeared from Victoria about 150 years ago, leaving behind only a few specimens in museums around the world.

That all changed seven years ago when three women on a printmaking course were shown the Aboriginal collection at the Melbourne Museum, which has two cloaks from the 19th century.

"It brought me to tears when they brought out the cloak from my family's country around Lake Condah (in western Victoria)," says Vicki Couzens.

"I felt such a strong connection to the past - I could feel the old people. We were all tremendously moved."

That chance viewing changed Couzens' life, as well as that of her two companions, Treahna Hamm and Lee Darroch. They set out to rediscover the skills needed not only to make the cloaks but to put motifs on them similar to those from the past.

"The most important thing is that we are telling our stories in our own way," Couzens says.

"In the past seven years, the cloaks have slowly come back into use as a normal part of welcoming ceremonies and at funerals."

The three received a grant from Melbourne City Council for their work and began importing skins from New Zealand, where the foreign possum is regarded as a pest, similar to the rabbit in Australia.

The first two cloaks made by the women are on permanent display in Canberra's National Museum of Australia, where they have represented Victoria for the past three years.

Three more decorated cloaks are now on show at Bunjilaka, the Melbourne Museum's Aboriginal cultural centre. They are part of an exhibition, Biganga, which is the Yorta Yorta term for the cloaks. Another is in the office of Melbourne's Lord Mayor, John So.

The show demonstrates traditional and contemporary practices based on the unique Victorian tradition.

Contd
Posted by Scout, Monday, 12 June 2006 9:19:00 AM
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Contd

The women are keen to teach others how to make the cloaks. For example, Couzens, who is from the Kirrae Wurrong clan, works with her daughters. Darroch, from the Yorta Yorta clan, is a community arts worker in East Gippsland and Hamm, also from the Yorta Yorta, is an artist in the state's north-east. Couzens says the cloaks are a key ingredient in cultural regeneration.

"We are creating connections for future generations," she says. "They reinforce our identity. It's only when you know who you are that you can gain the strength to go forward.".............

............."I became aware that while we were reviving an art form that had been rested for 150 years, we were, in fact, reinforcing something that has never been in doubt, but may have been taken for granted," Hamm says.

"As we talked about the cloaks, I realised that we were not only connecting with each other, but also with our people from the past who had made cloaks just as we're doing."

Hamm was taken from her mother at birth in 1965 and given up for adoption. She did not meet her again for 27 years.

"I only stopped asking questions when I met my family and began learning about our culture and continuing traditions," she says.

Hamm, whose Possum Skin Cloak Spirit is also on display at the Ian Potter Centre: NGV Australia, is doing a PhD in philosophy as RMIT, where Couzens is also undertaking a masters degree.

Darroch, whose grandmother was removed from her family, was brought up being told her dark skin was the result of Pacific Islander ancestry - "anything but Aborigines," she says.

Couzens says that people's skin colour is no indication of their sense of being Aboriginal.

"That might fade over generations," she says, "but that doesn't affect the spirit."............

.............."One of the old cloaks had 81 stories on its panels and no one knew them when we started," she says. "But, as we have gone on, the stories have started to come back."

http://www.teachers.forests.org.au/statenewsmarch06.html
Posted by Scout, Monday, 12 June 2006 9:22:38 AM
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Donna,

What you feel and describe is what all people should feel when they see the truth about how our first inhabitants actually live. There is a way too romantic type view held by many who haven't seen that the aboriginals are somehow living well, spiritually and culturally. They don't, it's bleak poverty and brief life expectations.

The facts are stark are they not Donna? If you haven't seen many aboriginal communities believe me the Uluru one is probably slightly better than most. Hard to believe but true.

The big question for you Donna is what are you going to do about it? If you continue writing in a way that indicates the problem exists because of the white man you will achieve nothing. White men do not force the aboriginals to live in such squalor, they have choices but their "culture" drags them back in most cases.

To be still blaming others after 200 years is fairly indicative of what their culture is really about isn't it? So much money has been poured into those communities but what is there? Houses gutted, garbage everywhere, abandoned kids wandering around mainly never seeing the inside of a classroom and drunken bodies collapsed during daylight but walking, drinking and doing damage at night.

Focus on facts Donna. The idea of an aboriginal culture is complete rubbish. Why? Because there are so many distinct groups/tribes and most of them hate each other. There is no unity, combining to help each other. Whatever culture there was 200 years ago (hunter/gatherers) is very limited and today's culture is evident. It's what you saw, not what is written in papers.

I have to ask, how on earth did Ayer's Rock become your spiritual home? If you had never been there you had no connection with it at all and simply invented a vision of what it would be like. Shattered vision now.

Go and see it for yourselves. Maybe that will help change what is an impossible situation. Reality, not fantasy as spun by the media.
Posted by RobbyH, Monday, 12 June 2006 12:14:04 PM
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Maybe instead of teaching the making of possum skin cloaks, it would be beneficial to teach the girls simple dressmaking and the boys could learn basic woodworking , useful things that were once taught in primary schools.
I read that the people of Wadeye stated there were not enough places for the children of that community even though few attended school regularly.
What is wrong with transmitting "School of the Air" to those remote places,with computers now in general use,it could be done with a bit of resolve and a lot of will power instead of the lethargic,'won't power' that seems to impede every positive suggestion.
It is only a hundred years or so since education became the norm, let the Aboriginal children have a chance at life now.
Posted by mickijo, Monday, 12 June 2006 3:46:52 PM
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Hey now, fair crack of the whip, Mickijo! Never mind the simple dressmaking, as I'm sure possum cloaks would make a fair trendier fashion accessory than the hair shirts the “compassionate lefties” now wear with their designer gear.

And maybe it’s the economic answer to the remote Aboriginal communities where according to ASH, the inhabitants have nothing better to do than to take drugs, drink grog (and rape babies, I might add!). All of which he directly blames on European "settlement". Surely you mean “invasion”, ASH?

The men could hunt for the possums and the women could make the skins into lovely cloaks , for sale under a “Koori Kool Kloaks” label. I’m quite sure the fashionistas would kill for the privilege of owning something so traditionally Aboriginal to wear as they whiz around suburbia in their 4WDs. Hell, it all sounds so good, I almost wish I had a piece of the action!
Posted by ZORRO, Monday, 12 June 2006 4:58:15 PM
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Johnj and Rainier,

Just a question since both of you know more precisely than others relevant studies and their results.

Fifty percent of Indigenous people live in places relatively close to city services. Twenty five percent live in remote communities. Are you aware of any studies or figures kept or that are available on health and mortality statistics of those Indigenous in remote communities as opposed to those who live within relative close proximity to city services?

Donna

Your article and the 'debate' following has given me some pretty powerful links containing very relevant information (Thanks Johnj). That Donna is a huge positive in my eyes.

Thanks.

Leigh

Are you disappointed Indigenous culture and Indigenous people have actually survived into the 21st Century? A reading of your posts so far seem to suggest this is your position.

Keith
Posted by keith, Monday, 12 June 2006 7:33:08 PM
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Keith, I can't find anything much on remote vs non-remote health. There's a bit in the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare report, Health and Welfare of Australia's Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples, 2005 http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/ihw/hwaatsip05/hwaatsip05-c08.pdf My reading of this report suggests that there's some difference in chronic conditions like diabetes, but not huge. The whole report is at http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/index.cfm/title/10172 and is quite accessible for a non-medico such as myself. There's quite a good health site, based in the Northern Rivers (NSW) area with some indigeous material at http://www.medicineau.net.au/clinical/abhealth/home.html

We've come a long way from the 19th century "pillow for the head of the dying race" policies. These ideas morphed into Social Darwinism; "It seems a law of nature where two races whose stages of progression differ greatly are brought into contact, the inferior race is doomed to wither and disappear" (The Age, 1888) When Aborigines inconveniently refused to die out, they tried "assimilation", which was chucked in favour of "self determination". We then got "reconcilliation" and then "practical reconcilliation" which is now "mutual obligation". Funnily enough, I think that mutual obligation (given enough political will, time, money and consultation) might actually do some good, but notice the spin-cycle is getting faster and faster. I can't wait for the next policy shift, got any suggestions?

As to the "debate", it seems that some posters yearn for simpler times when you could call a "dying race" a "stone-age culture" and everyone would congratulate you on your perspicacity.
Posted by Johnj, Monday, 12 June 2006 10:46:04 PM
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Dear Johnj

You note at the end of your last post the following:
"As to the "debate", it seems that some posters yearn for simpler times when you could call a "dying race" a "stone-age culture" and everyone would congratulate you on your perspicacity."

Sorry to disappoint you but I am not yearning for a simpler time or expect contemporary Anangu to disappear. However the Anangu belief system cannot be expected to be sustained much further into the 21st century. It is this belief system (Tjukurpa) that has become archaic.

The major trouble for contemporary Anangu is that some of their leaders along with their backers in Parks Australia continue to delude themselves into thinking that an archaic belief system can provide answers for people living in the 21st century.

This set of delusions is perpetuated in the opening section of the current Plan of Management for the national park. Perhaps the saddest aspect of this delusional behaviour is set out in paragraph three of the Board of Management's "vision" (Page 14 at http://www.deh.gov.au/parks/publications/pubs/uluru_plan_2000.pdf).

Here it states that "(Uluru's) importance as a sacred place, and a national symbol, will be reflected in a high standard of management". It is a great pity for all Anangu that this "high standard of management" has never been extended to the Mutitjulu community in which they live.

Instead far, far too much time has been spent worrying about what film-makers and photographers might image - sacred places/blokey places that shouldn't be seen by women, shock, horror! - and in trying to dissuade (shame) tourists from climbing the Rock.
Posted by EnerGee, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 9:02:51 AM
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REDNECK
nice to see some evidence of research there mate.... aboriginal culture of course is diverse, and some of the things you pointed out, while undoubtedly true, would not be universal I'd say.

I hope no one thinks Rednecks account of tribal culture is some myth of his own imagination, or something he dug up from a 'White Supremacist' web site. In Borneo the Kelabits used to fill the mouths of twin babies with salt and store them in jars under the long house to let them die a horrible death, just because twins were a 'bad omen'. I know one of such twins who was rescued, and she is rather appreciative having a life.

If anyone thinks there is high intrinsic cultural value in the slitting of ones penis as described, why not try doing it urself some time ?

Many indigenous cultures are in fact the end result of what I usually describe as "Make_it_up_as_you_go" morality and culture and spirituality.

I find it fascinating that some secularists condemn missionaries for bringing Christ to indigenous peoples and releasing them of the fear of the spirits which drives them to DO many of these things. Again, if u want to know what liberation and freedom is, grab a razor, take it close to your Penis, then think "Unless I do this, the spirits will punish me, my family and the whole tribe".. ponder that for a bit... take it REALLY seriously, perhaps even make a small incision...THEN...
imagine someone tells you "You are FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE from that fear, because Jesus Christ is sovereign over those spirits and they can't lay a glove on you !" aaaah.. u can put away the razor... the warmth begins flooding back into your clammy face and hands.... LIFE begins in freedom. Halelujah !

At the same time, any tribe or indigenous group which has led a sustainable subsistence life, has much to teach us. Capitalism is as flawed as Communism, and as Jesus said "I am.....the Way"

He opposed greed as much as slackness. A redeemed culture is a wonderful culture.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 9:50:04 AM
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Savage Pencil says: "...there were no pyramids, temples, monuments or even permanent buildings of any size in pre-1788 Australia. Yet indigenous people managed to erect these in what today is Cambodia, Mexico, Micronesia, Peru, Zimbabwe, etc, etc, etc.

Now we are making progress. Something positive about the various other cultures. A recognition of the value of multi-cultural contributions to our existential questions. Great. No more Muslim bashing.

Donna, Rainer, JohnJ, Ash, Keith and any indigenous people who understand, or other folk who appreciate the cultural aspects of the indigenous peoples, sigh: MY BLEEDIN' HEART GOES OUT TO YOU ALL (Just a tic 'till I wipe the spittle off my screen for Bunny Wigglesworth. B.W. is Zorro's gay alter-ego).

And if all you indifferent folk think that Leigh and his N.S. comrades don't think the same about anything outside their bigoted culture - then think again.

S.P. goes on, as if to show that there is a gate hanging off him/her, and inadvertantly affirms Rainer's explanation of Eurocentric thinking and its inability to comprehend indigenous culture. Her materialist conception of cultural advancement (Marxist tendency evident there) and her inabilty to grasp the cultural significance of the beautiful aspects of indigenous culture, such as, the significant pre-invasion cultural wonder where 500 distinct groups were using 200 distinct languages suggests the abstract nature of indigenous achievements is beyond S.P., Z and Leigh's child-like concrete reasoning.

There is also the many religious variations that I think need preserving in the context of a modern society. Much like we "white fellas" still choose to cling to our various religious, academic, and cultural mores, myths, ideals, ideas and ceremonies.

The Australian cultural landscape wouldn't be Australian without indigenous cultures. (Sorry Rainer et el I know this isn't where you are coming from but I'm just a rancitasiocentric who loves multiculturalism.)

Boaz we live in a modern world where Christians in aeroplanes drop bombs on non combatants and kill and maim little children and innocent folk, so don't talk to Rancitas about barbaric practices until you sort your own Christian backyard.
Posted by rancitas, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 12:54:53 PM
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BOAZ; circumcision is rarely self-administered and its links to the Christian God's covenant with Abraham is instrinsic.

Ascribe to your Christian boys a razorblade and the freedom of choice to self-mutilate for the price of salvation or the FREEEEEEEEEEEEEDOM of relief to put away the razor... the warmth begins flooding back into their clammy face and hands.... LIFE begins in freedom. Halelujah !

Subincision is culturally linked to birth-control in arid desertlands where the birth of another child would jeopardise the survival of the group. It is entrenched into manhood and worn as an undisputed honour. Fertility is deliberately restored through another cultural practice when conditions are suitable.

Your condemnation of the cultural practice of sacrificing twins in Borneo is contradicted by the other side of Christian salvation. Feedom, you say, basking in the eternal glory of God, BUT, for those that choose otherwise, eternal damnation and infinite suffering in the pit-fires of hell, for ever and ever and ever. But its a freedom of choice offered by a loving God, even though the consequences of choosing wrongly are infinitely worse than the perceived agony of subincision or infanticide.
Posted by Neil Hewett, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 12:57:07 PM
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You should all put yourselves in this position.

You experience the death of people close to you.
You cannot find work.
You see ill friends and relatives taken to far away places and you experience a loss of contact and knowledge of their well being.
You know people who have been removed from their families. It is something you fear.
You and people around you commonly experience accidentally injury.
You are likely to be, or fear that you will be, attacked physically or sexually.

You experience the occurrence of one or more of these things every six weeks. (Ok maybe the worst case senario. But 7 times a year is not uncommon.)

People around you smoke, drink and take drugs.
You live in an overcrowded home.
You have little supervision.
You have very poor nutrition.
You experience ill health.
You are bored.
You feel hopeless.
You are seventeen.

Now ask the two following questions, understanding of course you’ve had or are having a limited education:

What do you expect would be your lifestyle choices?

Now then is blaming you or your ‘stone-age’ culture for your situation and for the condition of your community going to alleviate the crushing conditions you live your life under?
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 3:08:24 PM
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EnerGee, as you used neither "dying race" nor "stone-age culture" I don't know how you can conclude my barb was aimed at you. The guilty parties know who they are.

As to Tjukurpa, I don't believe I'm in a position to judge. The best I can do is recommend Barry Hill's "Broken Song: T.G.H. Strehlow and Aboriginal Possession" (if you haven't read it). Strehlow dealt mainly with the Arrernte, but this excellent book tries to come to grips with Central Australian Aboriginal spiritual beliefs. If the 800-plus pages are a bit much (but believe me it is an excellent read) there's a doco called "Mr Strehlow's Films" which covers some of the same ground.

Ted Strehlow gathered songs and sacred objects, eventually publishing his magnum opus "Songs of Central Australia". In this book he makes a case (probably unsuccessfully) that Aboriginal sacred song is an oral literature comparable with Homer or the Elder Edda.

In Hill's book a younger Aboriginal man is quoted as saying that they had given away the old ways to become like whitefellas. But they weren't treated like whites, so they had to keep some of the old culture or else they had nothing (sorry, I'm paraphrasing from memory here).

Anyway, this will positively be my last post on this thread.
Posted by Johnj, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 8:05:20 PM
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Bonjour rancitas

My great-great grandmother was indigenous ... I keep thinking that the reason that she married a white fella was to escape the misogyny of Aboriginal culture. (Other relatives came from Scotland as noted before).

There may well have been 500 distinct groups using 200 different languages but is this "Tower of Babel" that much of an achievement. Should I be equally impressed by 500 farmers groups devising 200 different types of barbed wire?

The Australian cultural landscape is the sum of many parts. But at Uluru the Anangu interpretation of the land is force-fed to visitors over and above the scientific explanation of the national park's natural wonders. It's probably because of this "force-fed" aspect that I tend not to think of Uluru as an Aboriginal cultural landscape but see it as a "politically-correct" Australian cultural landscape. However I do find a 'connection' to the Aboriginal-ness of other Australian landscapes where the mantra of "connection to land" isn't shoved down my throat. Mutawintji National Park in western New South Wales is a case in point. Very powerful, very subtle as well.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 10:21:29 PM
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Desert wandering: what a load of guff and trash.
one quick trip up the road and you "know it all" I realy think you should spend a bit of time with your subject first. I'v lived in the NT for a large part of my life, and we see people like you every day come along and do nothing better than make a bad problem worse. the money these people get would blow your sox off. If you spent any time you would realise that, I suggest you take the"blinkers off" and go and have another look, then you might "see" what I mean.
About the only parts you got right is the stars and terain in S.A but thats not there fault just a bad gardner.
Posted by bob4711, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 9:32:24 AM
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Hey bob4711,

I think you should take a look at Keith's post 3 above yours and ask yourself how you might feel if that was you, or your kids suffering?

As to how much money has been given to people to make these problems go away, I'd suggest you look at the lesson Rene Rivkin taught us about money and happiness, before you assume that money can take away pain and heartbreak, or buy good role models.

Remember Rene? One of the richest men in Australia and yet he took his own life.

Alan Bond was another rich man. According to our justice system he committed criminal acts. Obviously his money didn't give him excellent morals and a sense of community service.

The money isn't the issue. Compassion is the issue. I found it fascinating to read "We of the Never Never" in a contemporary light. The narator speaks of having to chase away indigenous folk from the river because "they know they weren't allowed there." Right, only the new owners that had claimed the land as their own could give the locals permission to swim or drink or enjoy the river. Times have changed, and attitudes have changed, for some of us at least.

...and always remember, the one who has the most money when they die wins. (Thanks for illustrating this principle Rene)
Posted by Monkey_2006, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 9:45:03 AM
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Neil Hewett says that: "Subincision is culturally linked to birth-control in arid desertlands where the birth of another child would jeopardise the survival of the group. It is entrenched into manhood and worn as an undisputed honour. Fertility is deliberately restored through another cultural practice when conditions are suitable."

Is this ritual still performed? Some young Aboriginal are still being inititiated in Central Australia but I would hope that subincision itself had gone the way of the dodo. After all condoms are a much more effective birth control than slashing of the phallus.

Don't be shame, be game!!

As for the manhood guff, let's stop kidding ourselves that a culture/s based on gender apartheid, a la Anangu, is a beautiful thing.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 4:57:17 PM
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Ironic contention, "As for the manhood guff, let's stop kidding ourselves that a culture/s based on gender apartheid, a la Anangu, is a beautiful thing" from such an ambiguous nom de plume, Savage Pencil.

The ritual is still performed and the post-initiates wouldn't have it any other way.

Your inability to conceive of such an undertaking in a positive context is probably no different to indigenous incredulity that non-indigenous Australia so rapaciously desecrates the terrestrial bed that it lies in, as it were.

What is primitive and spiritually incomprehensible to one; is incomprehensible and spiritually primitive to the other.
Posted by Neil Hewett, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 6:11:07 PM
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As I trawl through the eclectic comments that at times cause me, the author, to feel a little sullied, it is a great pleasure to come across the literary offerings of Neil. What a fine way with words. Loved your website too.
Donna
Posted by lyrebird, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 9:30:45 PM
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To Neil Hewett

Am I to be condemned for not viewing subincision in a “positive light”, as you put it?

Given that there is no longer any need for this ritual from the point of view of contraception, the only reason that I imagine that initiates would undergo it is so that they can scream “I’m a MAN” at the end of it. To which I would say, “Cut the macho crap”.

The trouble with the cultural relativist position that you are advancing Neil, is that it provides us with no platform from which to advance universal human rights. It provides us with no platform to argue against the death penalty in countries such as China, Singapore and the United States. It gives us no argument against the pro-whaling nations such as Iceland, Japan and Norway. And cultural relativism is a ready defence for theocrats in the Middle East and elsewhere who want to argue against democracy.

Contemplate this Neil ... if Anangu or other Western Desert tribes had cultural practices which were akin to those of the Mexica people in 1500, would heart excision be OK with you? Should we defend it as a cultural practice worthy of a World Heritage listing?

For a comprehensive demolition of cultural relativism might I suggest British writer Kenan Malik’s excellent article “All cultures are not equal” (http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/anti-imperialism.html) for starters. As the Indian-born Malik notes: “To regard people as 'temporarily backward' rather than 'permanently different' is to accept that while people are potentially equal, cultures definitely are not; it is to accept the idea of social and moral progress; and it is to accept that it would be far better if everyone had the chance to live in the type of society or culture that best promoted human advancement.”

Ultimately young boys in Aboriginal communities need to be freed from the prospect of torture that subincision involves. And Anangu women should be free to walk through the Valley of the Winds with a geology text in hand and see that male myth is just a bunch of archaic codswallop.
Posted by Savage Pencil, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 10:30:32 PM
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What criterion determines the type of society or culture that best promotes human advancement? Might? Decadence? Sustainability?

It is a fundamentally important question and you are to be congratulated, SP, for at least having the wherewithal to arrive at its reckoning.

I can’t precisely recall when I first condemned the self-defeating colonial arrogance that claimed a monopoly on wisdom in this unfamiliar antipodal landscape.

Debate tends to favour the rigour of contrarian views, but I won’t hesitate to argue for the greater complexity of concurrence and compromise.

Reconciliation seeks to restore or bring back to friendship or union, that which never was. To what extent does non-Aboriginal Australia avail itself of the necessary language to engage its original people in meaningful dialogue? Quite simply, not at all.

Language, I have heard and verily believe, evolves from worldview. ‘Savage’, for instance, describes a state of nature: wild, uncivilised, ferocious and furious. ‘Pencil’, denotes something with an expectation and allowance for later alteration.

It is astonishing that the value I place on the collective wisdom of Australia’s indigenous people is used as an argument to deny a ‘platform from which to advance universal human rights’ or to seek the prohibition of whaling by other peoples from around the world.

You ask if I would I defend heart excision as a cultural practice worthy of a World Heritage listing? I would suggest that the treatment of Australia’s indigenous people, World Heritage listed or not, strongly suggests heart excision is rife within the dominant culture.
Posted by Neil Hewett, Thursday, 15 June 2006 7:33:11 AM
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Interesting to see that "lyrebird" (aka Donna Jacobs Sife) has rejoined the discussion ... but the poor person feels "a little sullied" by some of the eclectic comments. Boo hoo!!

One of our eclectic lot asked her about the loss of knowledge that we "so desperately need to save this earth of ours". Is she going to give us an answer?

Given her praise of Neil Hewett's posts, am I to believe that subincisions all round are the solution? But what do we give to the female half of the population? Genital mutilations, or would a burqa do?
Posted by EnerGee, Thursday, 15 June 2006 9:03:01 AM
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Being new to this thread I have been fascinated/appalled by the range of opinion, fact and fantasy here. I have also been shocked by the number of writers who are unable to enter into the discussion and be open to new ways of thinking. Brutal, insensitive attacks on either side do not advance any of the arguements.

Savage pencil I am intrigued as to your definition of "human advancement" when most modern capitalist societies are freewheeling towards creating a world where it will be impossible for humans to existence, let alone advance. It was one thing when the Western World was raiding resources and polluting for commercial gain but now that everyone else has learned how to do the same we are all in even more trouble. The rocks and plants and a fair few creatures will last a lot longer than humans who are grabbing what they can while they can and ignoring the legacy that they are leaving for their own progeny. The inequality that exists on this planet is a disgrace and pushing the evidence into ghettos, turning the page or tv station over and trying to relinquish responsibility for it doesn't make it any more acceptable.

The so called "sophisticated", "advanced","intelligent", "enlightened" empire-builders of the past have all been cruel and tyrannical on a grand scale. And it continues...and the abused cultures then become the abusers. Resentment , anger and fear fuel the acceptance of abuse until everyone feels justified in being offensively defensive. What a great world we, the "advanced" are creating/destroying.

Compassion for our own abused pasts and empathy for others will go a long way towards opening meaningful dialogue that might just enable us all to advance together in a more peaceful manner. None of us are right. We are all learning.....I hope!
Posted by worldkitten, Thursday, 15 June 2006 9:36:43 AM
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Neil said:

BUT, for those that choose otherwise,

eternal damnation and infinite suffering in the pit-fires of hell, for ever and ever and ever.

COMMENT:

Neill, you make a very good point. "Choice".. but in your comment you also implicitly judge the Almighty. Dangerous ground I'd say.
Even the author Donna "Jacob's" is living testimony to the God who acts in history for the Salvation of mankind.

Who in their right mind would choose other than the Creator ? and why ? Rather than emphasizing the peril and suffering of rejecting God, why not ask 'why reject' ? and also ask what are the benefits and blessings of living under Grace with the Almighty, compared with rejecting Him and living according to the lusts of the mind and flesh ?

Savage Pencil makes the point about your cultural relativism, to which you respond with another relativistic statement "Sustainability" being that which most promotes human survival. The problem is, you offer no ultimate authority for this, without a divine sanction, your view is just that.. 'your view'.
You may be able to marshal compelling reasons for that view, but others can do likewise for contrary views, that they will claim have the same goal. Some are interested in survival by 'exterminating' segments of the human race, such as the authors ethno/religous group during WWII, others by re-ordering our use of resources.

Unless you can speak with more authority than simply your own reason, it is a resounding gong or a tinkling symbol
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 15 June 2006 9:36:50 AM
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cont...
This clash of cultures existing in Australia is profound. I am no expert but it seems that the idea of time being linear rather than cyclic is a huge conceptual difference between Aboriginal cultures and anglo/european ones. We are taught from an early age to think of the future as somthing different and to experiment and celebrate the new. We call it "progress" and it has a forward motion. When I visited the Yolngu people of Arnhem Land I was profoundly touched by the ways they are working to marry their cyclic view of the world - where they are instrumental in "maintaining" rather than "advancing" the status quo - with the more globally modern idea of "progress" and "advancement".

The western world has accomplished many amazing things but most agree that we are stuffing it all up right now. We need to look to each other to find solutions.

I applaud the Yolngu people for thinking carefully about how they will combine their own ideas of how the world is with ours so that both gain from the mix. They call it "Ganma" or two way learning. After only two visits to see my Yolngu friends I couldn't even begin to explain the "knowledge" that they have that we can learn from - there are so many levels to their understanding of the world. Yes, some ideas seem fantastic and can frustrate those who don't easily comprehend the language of metaphor. Someone once said a nation is defined by the stories it tells itself. I would suggest that my culture is impoverished by many of the superficial reality tv stories it tells itself and could learn a lot from the social metaphors the Yolngu have inherited from their relationship with the land. It seems to me their spirituality is as much about the way in which they describe the world to themselves as it is about their relationship with so called mythical ancestors. It's time we rewrote the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and what we dream for our collective futures.
Posted by worldkitten, Thursday, 15 June 2006 10:31:27 AM
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To worldkitten

Some Yolngu people may have a concept of time that is cyclic but that doesn't alter the fact that time itself is linear. It moves forward, we should progress. Mind you, one could argue that John Howard's concept of time is cyclic as he, like some Yolnu, is much more interested in maintaining rather than advancing. Or in the case of civil unions and industrial relations, he wants to retreat backwards to the 1950s and the 1850s respectively.

I have visited Uluru several times and read quite extensively about Anangu culture but haven't been able to find any profound metaphors in the Tjukurpa stories. Just lots of contradictions.

Mind you Anangu aren't helped by the speciousness of some of their Parks Australia friends. I recall being told by a white ranger in 2001 who was sounding off about The Climb, that "If there was anywhere else in the world that was this dangerous, then they'd close it down immediately."

Yet people die in New Zealand national parks all the time by falling off mountains - places that we are told are spiritually important to Maori - yet there is never any call to stop people adventuring over there. And of course, there is that other big mountain in Nepal which has claimed far more lives than Uluru ever has.
Posted by EnerGee, Thursday, 15 June 2006 11:20:51 AM
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Savage Pencil. You say Malik notes: "To regard people as 'temporarily backward' rather than 'permanently different' is to accept that while people are potentially equal, cultures definitely are not; it is to accept the idea of social and moral progress; and it is to accept that it would be far better if everyone had the chance to live in the type of society or culture that best promoted human advancement.”

I don't want to be "politically uncouth" but you'd be hard pressed to find a society that didn't have some negative aspects to it. Why do you think your comrades focus on the Indigenous of Australia?

The fact that some folk on OLO target Indigenous culture while turning a blind eye to their own cultural failings suggests racism or at least cultural suprematism to Rancitas. Moreover, I don't see the relevance of SP's claims to Indigenous ancestry given that he has rejected the culture and perhaps put words into his granny's mouth to back his position?

FYI. Rancitas is German/Moorish/Italian/Prussian/English/Australian and in my culture we look to the kind of person one is. For instance: Rancitas is a bona fide dropkick.

Any society without the right to choice is wrong. If I choose to go and get a piercing through my old fella, my clit (if I had one) or my tongue( I certainly have one) or a tattoo - that is my choice.

Having said that, I think the idea of age of consent is a sound reason for Indigenous peoples' to reject subincision and Euro cultures to outlaw circumcision. Too young to choose.

I think that the Indigenous culture was/is pre-Socratic in that ancestral law was still sacred. Socrates asked why? Why people believed that their ideas were true. Answer? Because the ancestors who had the authority of the law on their side said so. For Socrates’ politically incorrect questioning he had the choice between drinking of some hemlock or the prospect of state execution. He saw the Law and respect for the State as being more important than his own position. cont.
Posted by rancitas, Thursday, 15 June 2006 3:51:17 PM
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uedThe old Greeks believed young boys were like pre-women and subjected them acts that we would now regard as barbaric. ,Not to mention and the fact that later the Greeks developed an idea of democracy that regarded slavery as normal and women as, well, not even worth a mention. Given that our culture is fairly well founded on Greek culture and thinking: did we throw the whole of our connection to those foundations in the bin because of these negative aspects. Fair go the dingo.

Overall, I think, Indigenous cultural heritage is worthy of respect just as I think our Greek cultural heritage, especially in the academic area, is a great plus for Australian culture.

By the way Boaz, you didn't reference your claims about barbaric behaviours - so it is hearsay. Your hero Bolt would dismiss your claims as lies and attack the whole missionary "industry" as a scam - if you were indigenous.

So Boaz when an indigenous person gives their first hand account of white fella barbarianism, because it doesn’t fit in with your “Christian “ schema, you rationalise away their truths with a thinking that conveniently regards Australian indigenous people as unreliable witnesses. Why is that Boaz? Because your first appeal is always to your political position – not the true Christian heritage.
Posted by rancitas, Thursday, 15 June 2006 3:59:56 PM
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Neil Hewett

You ask, "What criterion determines the type of society or culture that best promotes human advancement?" Openness would be one criterion along with an ability to engage in critical thinking. Where exactly do these qualities exist in a closed, pre-literate society?

I'm talking about human advancement which rids us of archaic practices such as subincision, tooth excision and human sacrifice and one which uses scientific method as an attempt to explain the world around us rather than the accumulated dross of 4,000 or 40,000 years of superstition. And social advancement which strips away gender apartheid - which after all is the hallmark of Anangu society - and allows men and women to achieve things which previously they weren't allowed to.

Sustainability is obviously a good thing but the sustainability offered by pre-1788 Aboriginal society is that of the hunter and gatherer culture which is not an option for people in the 21st century.

As for language evolving from worldview ... I think you read far too much into my nom de plume. But perhaps I should point out that Neil Hewett is an anagram of "The Wet Line" and "The Wee Lint". But I don't read anything into that, would you?
Posted by Savage Pencil, Thursday, 15 June 2006 8:38:01 PM
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SP

There is much discussion at present about the cultural dictates if immigration; with a general weight of support to ‘accept the core values of the country that is claimed to be called home, or come not at all’.

Hypocrisy, in consideration of our colonial past.

As a people, we celebrate the achievement of longevity in life and marriage; despite the hardships along the way, that perseverance has prevailed. It is a social and cultural expression of regard … for the love that underpins the relationship.

What could be more loving, than the relationship of Australia’s indigenous people and their living cultural landscape? A relationship that has endured longer than any other surviving human culture in the world.

So why is it so despised and by so many? Why is it not upheld as Australia’s greatest human treasure?

Existing under law to preserve and protect all Australians in an equal dignity, why does the Commonwealth of Australia confer indigenousness perpetually to the lesser standing?

Donna lamented the greatest sorrow of all is for the loss of knowledge that we so desperately need to save this earth of ours. To save ourselves.

We are each of us conflicted with of our own undisputable mortality and the fundamental instinct to survive. Religions have been built over the millennia to deal with this conflict and none provide salvation as sustainably nor rewardingly as the custodians of our precious country, since time immemorial.
Posted by Neil Hewett, Friday, 16 June 2006 7:32:26 AM
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Are Donna and Neil Hewett going to set up a "mutual admiration" club?
Posted by EnerGee, Friday, 16 June 2006 11:13:43 AM
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