As long as we continue to have a distinct separation between state and church - freedom of religion must continue to exist.

However, what Alec failed to address is what if other religions or non-religious groups use that same liberty to limit "liberties".

In matters of morality for example - and we've been through this many times here on OLO - the Judeo-Christian teaching is still the prime source of our democratic (legal) system.

Latest example is the same gender marriage law ... simply unacceptable because it would have changed the fabric from which our freedom was tailored and founded.

In the case of Islam and its deceptive ways of gaining acceptance in our "free" society - I draw the line there - Islam has no place in our democracy. They know it too but they continue to strive until they can inforce their opressive "freedom".

One can say the same about secular-humanists. Where would they dig for their moral validation and evaluation?

While we are discussing faith, maybe this one could fit in?

Religion plus Reason equals Wisdom and Understanding.

1. The mind is the cradle of reason, and the heart is the cradle of faith. When in unison they will convey humans to true happiness, provide clarity for their existence and present a window for futher truths. From Averroes, Muslim Devotee of Greek philosophy.

2. Christianity and Judaism, though still to be treasured, especially the early teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, but with too much reliance on faith alone, has left much of Western history before 1000 AD bleak and bare and destitute of political meaning.

3. Change was triggered off in Moorish Spain, when Islamic followers of Averroes, built a learning institute to which were invited not only Muslims, but Christians and Jews to harmonise together in a mixture of Islamism and Aristotelianism

4. From the teachings of Averroes aided by Peter Abelard then accepted by the great Christian St Thomas Aquinas, came the Western Rennaissance lifting Christianity out of the Dark Ages, and from which grew the Age of Reason, the Age of Enlightenment, then onto our present Age of Western Democracy.

5. Sadly, although it was Islam who helped us out of the Dark Ages, progressive pressure from the former barbarian Christian West forced Islam to discard reason and return to faith alone - thus inducing it to escape into its own political Dark Ages.

6. Without us so-called liberal grab-all free-marketeer Christians now joyously clapping our hands, it is believed we should pray for a brighter future for Islam, letting us all meet in harmony and work together to solve our present global disharmony - making use of that pure reason and understanding which had almost given up the ghost in modern times

Coach just can't help himself, making a judgemental view of "libertine", "liberty" and "taking liberies". The Helwy's view was the freedom of the individual's faith in God to be shaped and viewed in the way that each person saw it. This was their liberty.

To "take liberties" is to make unwelcome predadory moves in abuse of another person. The "libertine" in the Marquis de Sade's 120 days of Sodom savagely abuse the victim into perverse darkness. Not a nice book. That was abuse.

You assume that Civil Unions are "taking liberties" and therefore this is not a matter of liberty. WRONG! Civil Unions are two consenting adults of the same gender who commit their love to each other in the name of love. That is, mutual and consensual love. They are NOT taking liberties as they are not abusing each other. Your interpretation is irrelavant, according to Helwy.

They have the liberty to worship Jesus in the way they do, interpret how this means to them in the Bible without your intrustion and live the way they do, without your scrutiny.

The Helwy theory does not exclude civil unions, or gay people at all as it doens't mention them. Your intrustion into this topic is bizzare, if not typical of a hateful agenda, that will obsessively bully minority groups at all costs