It appears that the anti-condomists are not prepared to comment on the points raised in my posts. What's the problem? Have you no answers?

Rex,
I have no problems with the use of condoms; I've used them myself within my marriage. They are not the answer to social morality, they offer the very opposite opportunity, and do not stop STD or AIDS. They may reduce some effects, but they are not the cure that you place your whole case upon. In fact I've been involved in a programme that distributed them to teenage boys in Western Sydney. The boys attitude was it does feel the same. So we then decided to distribute them to the girls as they would act more responsible for their own health.

Thanks for your response, Philo. I know from your previous posts that you aren't Catholic, but some of the other posters seem to be and I would appreciate their responses too.

Your work with street kids is certainly commendable, but they're not representative of mainstream Australia. Nor are the young people of your church who make chastity vows and who may or may not be able to keep those vows.

I agree with you that many young people in 'mainstream Australia' exhibit some irresponsible and selfish attitudes in regard to sexual conduct [and in many other ways too]. But I believe that the sensible and workable thing to do is to give them the facts on sexuality, without any religious overtones, and teach them the importance of being responsible for their actions. This is the Dutch approach and the unwanted pregnancy and abortion figures in Holland [and also in some other European countries with similar programs] indicate that this approach works.

Here's an example from my own upbringing. My mother was a Christian woman [Anglican] all her life, but a realist and certainly not extremist.

I was encouraged to take a responsible attitude to life. I remember her telling me, as a teenager, that some parents just told daughters to be careful, but it was just as important to her that I didn't get a girl pregnant, as it was that my sisters didn't get pregnant. She was aware that I knew about sexuality and contraception and relied upon me to be responsible for my actions and to give girls the respect they were entitled to. She never lectured me, or tried to bring religion into it. This was in England and well over 50 years ago, but it sounds like the current European attitude, doesn't it?

As for the relative effectiveness of condoms, both for preventing unwanted pregnancies and STDs, well they're far more effective than the so-called rhythm method or nothing at all! Widespread abstinence outside of established monogamous relationships just isn't going to happen and we may as well accept that, just as the Dutch apparently do.

Philo, the real problem is your mindset. You think that by
lecturing religion, you can make people moral. Has it not
occured to you that the great majority simply see you as
religiously gullible and no matter how much you preach,
you will be ignored by the great majority.

So other approaches are required. Rex made many good points
about the pragmatic approach and why it works. Never forget
that we evolved to be pairbonding creatures, who practise
serial monogomy, with the occasional slip up. That is part
of our genetic make up. That is why there are plenty of couples
without a religious bone in their body who have happy family
lives. If the god approach was dropped in schools and people
learnt to think about morality, relationships, responsibility,
diseases, sex etc, with a more pragmatic approach, you would
be amazed at the results. Threatening with hellfire doesent
work anymore Philo, not in the first world anyhow.

Tony, there are plenty of lay Catholics who do a great deal
of good for others. They are not the problem, the problem
lies at head office. If the Vatican invents dogma that lands
up causing suffering and misery around the globe, you lay
Catholics can try as hard as you like, things won't get better.
You need to see the big picture here, not the little picture.

JP was probably a very nice old man with a big heart, but
sadly he was obsessed with contraception. The ramifications
of that world wide have been enormous, with much pain, hunger
and suffering because of it. When people who have had 8 kids
can't even have the snip, because of Catholic dogma, you have
to start to question it, if you can think at all rationally.
Many Catholics have in fact done so, the majority in fact
disagree with Vatican policy on this issue, yet Rome plods
on regardless. There should be less suffering in the world
Tony, not more, that is my point.

Yabby,

I have seen you say in your posts that the religious lobby is holding up education in Australia, the United States and all throughout South Africa. So, in places where there is a minority Catholic population like Botswana (4%) and Swazliand (5%), the African countries with a huge AIDS problems, it was the Vatican's fault. Funnily enough, the only place where they were not holding up education according to your posts is Uganda, a country which has a majority of Catholics and has a much reduced AIDS problem.

So, the fanatical influence of the Vatican works only in places in Africa where there is a minority Catholic population? The fact that condom usage in Uganda dropped over the time that the incidence of AIDS dropped is just an embarassing addition to this contradiction.

So now, all this talk about relentless campaigns, spin, lobbying, fanatical influence, religious dogma are moot. Such generalising, wrong, and tendentious statements like "US, the most Xtian Western Nation", and such insults like "Your sanctimonious preaching", are all moot.

Everything I have read in your posts points to one big conspiracy theory! Let me guess ... you also believe that the Catholic Church was in league with the Nazis to exterminate Jews (even though they saved over 800,000 of them), that this is proved because the Catholic Church was silent during the holocaust (even though the Allies air-dropped copies of the pope's Encyclical on Germany to raise anti-Nazi sentiment), and the Jews at the time hated the Catholic Church (even though the Israeli orchestra, who refused to play Wagner because he was seen as Hitler's composer, flew to the Vatican to give the pope a private performance in gratitude for what he did to save the Jews)

This "big picture" certainly sounds like a conspiracy. Why not write a book? Clearly the Vatican fanatical influence has got a few holes in it. Just make sure that you move to a majority Catholic country like France or Ireland, where the Vatican "spin and lobbying" machine won't work.

Paulb, personally I take no notice of what happens in Botswana or
Swaziland, as both are such tiny bits of dirt, with populations
of less then a small city, that what comes from over their
borders would have a far greater influence then anything.
Swaziland's king is more obessesed with how many new young wives he
will take on for the year and if aid money will buy him a new
plane or not. The aids debate is far larger then that.

If you want a clearer picture on aids in Uganda, you need to go
beyond Catholic spin weekly. Can't you google? Here is just
one blog which refers to a stack of news reports on what
happened in Uganda, but type in "Uganda condom usage" and see
for yourself.

http://donklephant.com/2006/05/25/abstinence-uganda-hiv-rates-suggest-failure

No need for me to write any books, others have done all that.
Google "Vatican Political influence" and you'll find heaps.

Just a couple:

http://www.population-security.org/cffc-97-02.htm

http://www.population-security.org/index.html

I don't think that the Vatican even tries to deny its political
agenda too much these days, too much has already been exposed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/3147672.stm

exposes how Catholic dogma makes peoples live in the third world
a misery. I guess they think its ok that people should suffer.