Wobbles

It all started to go wrong after the end of the Caliphate which coincided with the breakup of the Arab Empire and a return to the fundamental ideas of the Koran and the Teachings of the Prophet. About the time of the 11th century. Which of course was the approximate time of the first Crusades.

History lesson over :-)

Oh dear, Rache,

You've totally ignored the previous 1000 odd years. Terrorism has been undertaken by the Islamists and other assorted fundamentalists periodically during that time and it has always been aimed at groups or movements who held views opposed to their cock-eyed view of how everyone else should live and behave.

Not only that but generations of Afghan women have been suffering mistreatment for probably all those previous 1000 odd years. That didn't start with the Americans...

Numbat, as you have repeated the reference to Muslims as pagans I feel compelled to nitpick. Pagan is generally used by monotheists as a perjorative against polytheists, animists, atheists etc. To refer to Muslims as pagans is a nonsense. I'd suggest you find some other term of abuse.

Sadly, once again, this debate has once again gone so far off-topic as to be irrelevant.

Re RAWA: check the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Association_of_the_Women_of_Afghanistan which summarises the arguments regarding RAWA's supposed Maoist origins. I don't know enough to judge, but it seems to me that any organisation that supports women's rights in Afghanistan has got to be a good thing.

Johnh, that's been tried before but numbat loves those adjectives (in between telling us how much he does not hate the dirty rotten pagan muslims). There is some interesting stuff on wikipedia which suggests that one of the meanings is "Non Christian" (or if you like the latin bit about civilian, non militant) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism also see the note at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism#_note-0
If you use the non christain meaning then numbat is spot on with that bit, if you use the non militant then correct for many but not others. One of the alternate meanings suggested in the earlier discussion was as a generalised slur which seems to fit the usage as well. As someone once said "By their fruits you shall know them".

Keith, good point, regardless of what the American's have done some of this stuff predates their activities.

Marilyn, I'm not sure if you noticed but Australia has also been locking up men and children of both genders. Not just women. Likewise I suspect that some of the Afgan men might have had some concerns about taking orders from women (whatever their colour). If they choose to come here then part of the reality of this country is that we have officials of a both genders and from a variety of races. That is a reality that anybody hoping to make their home in this country really needs to learn to deal with fast. Maybe a bit less thinking of these issues as womens issues and more as human issues might help (or have I misunderstood your post?).

R0bert

The quickest way to be TOTALLY ostracized from being considered a reasonable debating participant (for me) is when someone tells me that on Australian soil, we have to cow tow to someone elses culture when they roll up on our shores !

"Women..not used to answering to strange adult men".. err. SO WHAT ! ?

It matters not one scrap or iota that cultural traits of assylum seekers is thus and so, what matters is that they have come HERE, and newsflash.. the culture here is OURS.. so they adapt without question.

Marilyn.. you have this habit of alienating those you seem to want to persuade.. and abusing them... there is some neuronic disfunction there mate....its like "man approaches with a knife" reaction "pick up a book and read it".

I mean, your approach to being part of Australian life is about as reasonable as that.

As I've said now at least 3 times.. STAND BACK and take a breather.. your emotional closeness to these people has made you irrational in respect of your own culture. I'm not trying to insult you there.. nor abuse you...I'm assessing the facts as I see them in you.

People come here in desperation.. and we have to adjust to THEIR culture ? the mind truly boggles. How about... they come here, and immediately begin learning how to adapt and assimilate to ours hmmm ?

Perhaps I missed something in Marilyns post.. misunderstood.. maybe others can help me here and give me guidance .. thanx

BD that is distressing when we find ourselves in a level of agreement - stop it.

Seriously though while Marilyn's post appear to be fairly sexist there is scope for helping people through cultural transition (especially if they are genuine refugees). Fleeing your homeland and going to a country with a different culture, language, religious attitudes etc must be a very difficult process for the most capable of people. I'd hope that if it ever became necessary for me to flee (family first get control of the government) that I would be cut some slack as I arrived.

No space for refugees to demand that we change but there is opportunity for us to show some grace in helping them with the transition (while making it clear that to be part of this country the onus is on them to make any necessary changes not on the existing population).

R0bert