There you go again, Boaz, being sneakily selective in the examples you use to support your position.

>>it is worth noting the central position of the Gospel in the rise of the civil rights movement in the USA...<<

... and you go on to cite the support for Rosa Parks of a group of believers at a Bible school in the Appalachian mountains.

It is also "worth noting" that the Ku Klux Klan too are driven by the Gospel. Under the heading "Ideology", the Law Enforcement Agency Resource Network (the US agency that trains their finest) describes KKK as having "Some Christian fundamentalist beliefs, Christian Identity, white supremacy"

My point is that if you genuinely believe that "True faith does not discriminate against or ill treat those of another color simply because of that color or race..." and "The Christian faith is about knowing Christ, in your own heart..." etc etc, then evidence of the Gospel's influence on this or that is entirely irrelevant.

You cannot on the one hand claim that "the Gospel" does good works through Martin Luther King, but conveniently ignore the works that it performs through David Duke.

So as far as I'm concerned, you can choose a position that faith is sufficient unto itself, and doesn't require reinforcement from outside forces such as churches, religions etc., which appears to be Mr Sellick's position.

Or you can subject your religion to a rigorous examination of its tenets and behaviours, and be prepared to explain them.

After all, one is judged by the company one keeps.

"Religion" is simply another ism. Like communism,naziism etc it is fading becuse it supplies very little in return for what it takes.
The questioning began when the common man learned to read and use his mind.
One can only hope Islamism goes the same way. There is very little in religion that is positive.
Quite a different matter to faith.

Pericles, the KKK is so obviously heretical, based more in the science-based ideas of racial superiority which have sought to find expression through a distortion of religion... hardly a good example ot use.

Yabby, if religion were just about "controlling people", as the Critical Theories would say, seeing as they boil down everything to a simply power relationship, why would people invent a religion which was in itself an inherantly subversive thing? Christianity - at least Catholic, Lutheran and Anglo-Catholic circles, but many others - have the primacy of a well-formed conscience, which means that disorder is actively encouraged. For as much as Christianity teaches a submission to the will of God, the expression of that will in world in a state of constant change will therefore change constantly. That is where there are a myriad men who were uncontrollable who made the Christian world more Christian by challenging it. One of the most important of these was St Francis of Assisi, but he is just one of the visible thousands of Christian reformers. Compared to Islam, which has a set idea of what the law should be, Christianity, by willing itself into perpetual flux, challenge and change, can hardly be called "just about control".

Sure, those people praying might not register in your eyes, but their prayers were a process of betterment which manifested itself in their everyday life, in their families, work, communities and so on. Studies comparing the life of believers to non-believers always show that Christians do more charity, give more money away, are more involved in their communities, commmit fewer crimes, have stabler and happier families, and are more likely to be employed in jobs of public service (emergency services, the military (fitting as Roman soldiers were some of the fastest converts), health, public service). The fact is, they arn't doing this only because they are told to, but because they have been changed by their faith into people who are more likely to... so don't discount those people praying.

DF, I wish that religion would give up on trying to control people and their lives and just preach to their flock. Only that way will we land up with a tolerant society.

Look at the enormous power and wealth that the Vatican has, achieved by controlling the minds of their followers from a young age. They dream up all sorts of things in Rome, then expect everyone to follow
obediently. They can't burn us at the stake anymore, like they used to if we disagreed.

If the Vatican is not about control, why do they try to proscribe exactly what couples or anyone else does in bed and then go out of their way to try and enforce it through various Govt legislations?

Religion should be a lifestyle choice and no more.

I have no problem with people praying, if it satisfies their needs.
I do have a problem if they try to get me to take them seriously.
I respect their right to believe anything that they want, not what they believe.

Hundreds of millions prayed for the last pope, the old fella still fell off the proverbial perch, despite the prayers. Millions prayed for miners in the US caught underground, they still died. Our 2 Aussie miners were rescued by a great team and fortunate circumstances. Why should I now believe that prayers mattered, apart from for those who need religion to cope with life?

I have no problem with freedom of religion, but I also demand freedom from religion for the rest of us, which some corporations like the Catholic Church, simply will not accept.

So the war continues sadly.

Religion perverts people's quest for spirituality since those at the apex seek power for it's own sake.

The truely spiritual people seek knowledge and truth with no rewards in the here after.Our present consciousness ends with death and I'm not vain enough to presume eternal bliss with some imaginary diety.

Pericles.. I wasn't being 'sneaky' I actually made the point that using such things in support of The Church is pretty much a no legs affair, for reasons outlined in the post. But I feel there is value in making the point that the Civil Rights movement had some noteworty sub plots and themes, which would unlikely make it into the mainstream media.

The thing about Rosa Parks, I only heard that a few weeks back on ABC at night, in the context of a story about "Hillbillies and Appalachian mountains"..

Poor old Yabby :) so paranoid about 'being controlled' c'mon mate.. you are a free man. Pity you use that freedom as an opportunity for the flesh ... (as you have explained in other posts)....

2night at Bible study, one of the questions was about "How does love produce growth in the Christian" based on Ephesians 3. Well, the point is, that if growth is not based on love, it will be by 'law'.. i.e. A person might become a more 'obedient' Christian, but unless that obedience is from the heart, and grounded in love, its just a shallow grave, a whitewashed wall, an empty vessel.