While I agree that blind US support for Israel's relentless campaign of politicide against the Palestinians is especially galling for Muslims, I would add that it is equally a turn-off for the rest of us. As the perceptive Tony Judt pointed out in a NYT op-ed on 19/4/06: "Looking back, we shall see the Iraq war and its catastrophic consequences as not the beginning of a new democratic age in the Middle East but rather as the end of an era that began in the wake of the 1967 war, a period during which American alignment with Israel was shaped by two imperatives: cold-war strategic calculations and a new found domestic sensitivity to the memory of the Holocaust and the debt owed to its victims and survivors. For the terms of strategic debate are shifting. East Asia grows daily in importance. Meanwhile our clumsy failure to re-cast the Middle East - and its enduring implications for our standing there - has come into sharp focus. American influence in that part of the world now rests almost exclusively on our power to make war: which means in the end that it is no influence at all. Above all, perhaps, the Holocaust is passing beyond living memory. In the eyes of a watching world, the fact that an Israeli soldier's great-grandmother died in Treblinka will not excuse his own misbehaviour. Thus it will not be self-evident to future generations of Americans why the imperial might and international reputation of the US are so closely aligned with one small, controversial Mediterranean client state. It is already not at all self-evident to Europeans, Latin Americans, Africans or Asians. Why, they ask, has America chosen to lose touch with the rest of the international community on this issue?"

Win the hearts and minds of Muslims? What nonsense. The author himself has pointed out that Muslims see everything according to their religion. There is no common ground between the West and the Muslim world. Rice was a lickspittle, even suggesting that the US "respects" Islam. Islam must be seen only as it is presented by its adherents: a monster from the Dark Ages, intent on domineering the world. There is no "respect" in it for non-Muslims.

Futher licence has been awarded to Muslims in Australia. Today it was announced by the AFP, on legal advice, that it is OK for Muslim bookshops to sell books inciting violence and racism (it brings shame to be called Australian)in the land of the poor silly fools who have allowed them to come here and to reach 300,000 strong and still growing.

There is no heart in Islam, and the mind is twisted

Respect for Muslim people..AS people is one thing, respect for the 'faith' is another.

These are the signs held 'in your face' in the UK during the cartoon/freedom of expression controversy, showing the true colors of that faith:

-DEATH to those who insult Islam
-SLAUGHTER those who insult the prophet
-BUTCHER those who mock Islam
-BEHEAD those who insult Islam
-Europe you will PAY, demolition is on its way.
-Europe is the CAncer, Islam is the Answer
-Islam will DOMINATE the world.
-Britain, take some lessons from 9/11
-Be prepared for the REAL holocaust.

Now.. if these were words from err..lets say "The Lords Resistance Army" of Uganda... we might just fob them off as brain damaged fanatics. If they were Wahabi protestors in Saudi Arabia, we might say "Ah well.. that's them".... If they were Taliban marching in Western Pakistan, free from the scrutiny of the Army, we might understand how they got away with it....

BUT.....

That they would be able to say these things in ENGLAND in PUBLIC is nothing less than a declaration of ALL OUT WAR !

That the UK has not identified and arrested every single person carrying such a sign, is evidence to our weakness and stupidity.

If such things were simply an abberation of Islamic history and doctine, we could dismiss them as lunatics. But they are not.

All the signs listed above, do in fact reflect the doctrines, the ensuing Islamic law reflected in the major schools of jurists.
If Mohammed would gouge out the eyes, cut off the hands and feet of Camel thieves, leaving them to die slowly in the desert heat, and massacre 6-800 or so surrendered Jews... what can we expect ?

There is nothing to respect in this faith, but blinded individuals should have the opportunity to see light.

God save us from those who've "seen the light."

Strewth..... no...God save us from those who hold up such signs...or did you miss the words on them ?

I didn't notice any concerned Imams running frantically around scolding the 'evil misrepresentations' of Islam.. did you ?

Are you able to successfully defend Islam against the charge "This is a relfection of Islamic law based on the 4 main schools" ?

Do you SHARE the views expressed by such signs ? (otherwise why would you come out with such a declaration as u did ? )

Lets look closely at what you said:

God....(which ?) save us (which us) from...... 'Those who have seen the light'

when I have called for the simple implementation of the law against sedition or hate speech or.. (any number of laws must apply to this). Calling for the murder of people on the basis of being critical of a so called prophet, is to my mind sedition against the state, because the state allows such criticism.

I just forgot to add in my last post the word 'deportation'. So, reviewing:

-Identification
-Arrest
-Deportation/ with stripping of citizenship first if neccessary. (after changing legistlation to that effect if needed)

Your comment is amazing

People call for the 'Butchering, Slaughtering, Beheading etc of:"Those who mock Islam"

and you.. YOU are saying 'Save us from those who are the target of such signs'..... arn't u ? Or perhaps just those (like me) who realize that such things are not idle threats, but outright manifestations of militant/Quranic Islam.

Are you planning to hold a protest outside the Jail where those Muslims are awaiting trial on terrorism charges in Melbourne ? (for allegedly plotting to assasinate our PM and his family among other things)...hmmm its all getting rather close to home.. and we have people with your attitude saying 'save us'..... but not from the perpetrators.. no..from the intended VICTIMS.

The words '5th column' come to mind.

Muslim hearts and minds is an argument that has largely been moved on from. I think the conclusion being that there are irreconcilable differences. More interesting is what happens when the ummah finally manages to inflame the Western street. The results presumably being a bit more calculated and drastic than a few firebombed KFC restaurants.

And strewth, please spare us the cut and paste screeds from your well thumbed Pilger anthologies. I much prefer your innate vulgarity expressed in your own words.

New York Times? Pilger? Come again, Pork Pie?

It is heartening to hear that the ummah has taken such a strong and noble
stand on the plight of the (largely Muslim) Palestinians.

Being the principled group that they are , I trust that this will mean they will soon be taking an equally vigorous stand against the ethnic cleansing of Sudanese Africans, the murder of Bahai in Iran and the mistreatment of Christians In Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan & Indonesia.

( though something tells me, I might see pigs fly before I see that).

I am an agnostic when it comes to religious affairs but when I read articles like this I can hear the atheist in me come surging to the front. Pritam Singh says that the nature of the "anti-US-ness" of the Muslim ummah is "rooted in a religious view that places God at the centre of the universe." This means, in effect, that the Muslim ummah rejects the secular society.

Sadly, for the Muslim ummah, it is the development of a secular society in the West that has enabled us to (largely) overthrow religious tyranny. And the development of secular societies in the Muslim world will be the only way forward for the more than 1 billion people in the ummah. For all of its faults, secular Turkey is a much better place for people to live and prosper in than theocratic Iran.

If Allah knows best and is all-powerful, then why isn't the Muslim world a land of tranquillity? Or are we supposed to believe the infantile rubbish that Western civilisation represents the hand of Satan?

The sad truth is that Allah, more than likely, simply does not exist.

I don't think the Ummah is that united at all. IMHO there is a strong sense of solidarity with the Palestinians but that is all there is to Ummah unity.

I don't know what the solution is for Israel and Palestine but until there is a solution acceptable to both sides that conflict will poison the world for generations to come. A shame mr Singh hasn't presented any options

Horus, Perhaps they're waiting for the principled person that you are to speak out against Israeli, US and British war crimes in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan?

Savage... the important point to realize in regard to Islam and the points you observe, at the if you begin at the wrong place, you will also finish in the wrong place.

The problems with Islam come from the fraudulent nature of the faith, its founder and the selfish exploitative nature of its doctrines.

There were a significant number of 'revelations' which were solely to keep mohammeds many wives in line, ...perhaps if he relied more on God than on the establishing of alliances through marrying his Companions daughters, or his adopted sons divorced wife, (who the son divorced when it became known that Mohammed took a fancy to her)
etc, he might have fared better.

But this is the nature of Islam, due to its founder operating on the "human" plane rather than the Spiritual, as Jesus showed.

Jesus fed the 4000 and the 5000 miraculously, Mohammed slaughtered the 6-800 males of the Banu Qurayza mercilessly because they opposed his military conquest. No contrast could be more stark.

With this kind of foundation, it should not be surprising that there are many troubles in the Islamic world. But please don't let their problems alienate you personally from any notion of God.

You will find God, in Christ Jesus. "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" he said.

Perhaps at the moment Savage..you are far from God.. alienated, lost.
Paul says "You who were once far off, have been brought near in the blood of Christ".. this can be your experience also.

Trust Him, put faith in Him, accept His forgiveness, and He will seal you in salvation for eternity.

There is nothing that America can do to make Muslims happy, so lets not waste our time. If Israel would vanish off the map, the Muslims would still hate us.

What American (and Europe and Australia, for example) should do is be honest with Muslims. Our leaders must stop this stupid policy of PC talk and tell Muslims the truth about the hate and anger in Islam, and the often vile, evil life of Muhammad.

That would be a good day in my opinion. I wonder if the Pope is getting ready to do this.. Did anyone see his recent calls that Islam respect other religions?

John Kactu

K: The only hate I see is your own. Outdone only by your ignorance.

strewth if kactuz if full of ignorance and hate how would you give the fastes growing religious set in the world respect for other religins when there so lead by the past.

"Captan": How about a basic literacy course before your next post?

sorrey about that mate. I'm not being rude I would just like to know how you think the world should go about getting respect out of islam for other religions . for no more then just to see were your coming from

Now Strewth, why would the Ummah need anyone to show them the lead.

Even a cursory scanning of the media would show there are truckloads of criticism & ridicule of the west’s position in the Middle East (& other places). And a lot of it is coming from the guiding lights of the Ummah & their fellow travelers in the west.
-so it seems they are not shy
-and it seems they are not lost for words.
It only seems they have inhibitions when it comes to criticizing their fellow Muslims.
It’s a case of “we see no evil, hear no evil & talk no evil’ about our own brethren.


You see the Ummah’s guiding lights are not committed to principles of Justice & Fairness -when dealing with outsiders – but skillfully use such slogans –to play naïve westerners- when it serves to further their own ends. The formula that best describes their approach is:
Where they are in the subordinate position –they are aspiring democrats –bleating about injustice
Where they are in the dominant position they are authoritarian –suppressing all deviation.

Their concern for the plight of the Palestinians stems more from a sort of tribalism which seeks to support its own brethren, than commitment to higher principles.Which is why they show no corresponding concern for the non-Muslims suffering much worse oppression under Islamic societies,throughout the world.

If the Ummah, and in particular (Indonesian based) Muhammadiyah, has a genuine commitment to Justice they would start by cleaning up their own backyard. First there’s the plight of the (Christian & Animist) West Irianese – whose story has all the features of Palestine, you have “Occupied Territories” you have the brutalizing of civilians by military & police, and you have a “unresolved issue of…nationalism”
Then you have the plight of Christian minorities in Sulawesi & Ambon with rape, beheadings forced conversion

Horus, that little fever dream of yours is worrying: the monolithic Muslim mass you like to call the Ummah, composed of millions of revolting litle tinted folk from diverse lands, but all thinking nasty thoughts in ant-like unison and bent on offing the nearest non-Muslims to hand. Have you seen a doctor yet? Tried a cold shower? Chocolate? Booze? There must be something that'll keep The Horror at bay! Get some help, man. Before your nearest and dearest have you certified.

Strewth.....

you never know.. maybe Horus.. like me.. has LIVED the nightmare.....

There is more world out there than Lygon street or South bank Latte coffee shops.. where the warm fuzzies are derived from a mutual back slapping/scratching/lathering of people with the same views.

There is no point in trying to win Muslim hearts in the sense Bush might want, its all a knee jerk economic pandering, out of fear of loss of access to oil.
In fact.. it probably has as much sincerity and dept as the Muslim bleatings about being 'peaceful democrats' when they are not in the dominant position.

Another sufferer! Must be an epidemic.

Mr Boaz read wikipedia and get cured from your paranoia. Likely you hold a very simple mechanics of this world, with religions as the only explanation.

Your know most people still believe in "one peace" (ie, the world will only peaceful if all we are all Muslims or Christians or Atheists). What kind of peace doesn't matter for if you believe on single peace, the peace would never begin.

Or peace is just a dream because competition to resources and ambitions can explain people's behavior more accurately than religions.

Dear Jelata. salam hormat kpd Saudara yang dinilaikan.

Wikidpedia is not the source of my understanding of life, though it does help.

I don't believe there will ever be 'one peace' so perhaps I have not made myself clear.
There will always be a struggle between communities and faiths for the hearts and minds of people, and specially between communities/races/tribes/nations for resources.

For us, the important thing, is to maintain our position, culture, social fabric in the light of many pressures from outside.

One such example of this pressure is the events in USA right now, not with Muslims, but with Mexicans. It is becoming clearer by the day, that the Mexicans regard the massive influx of illegal immigrants as nothing less than 'taking back what was taken by force' many years ago, i.e. south western USA. They appear to forget the Madsen purchase where money was exchanged to finalize the border between Mexico and USA.

Such is the nature of humans. In the case of people who have based their society on an aggressive faith, such as Islam, then there will be more problems. It is one thing to squabble with your neighbour about who should have access to the well to feed stock, it is quite another to believe that you have a God given mission to conquer your neighbour so he will finally believe the right things.

When Christian nations embark on such adventures, one simply needs to refer to the scriptures to see how in error they are. In the case of Islam, one only needs to look at the life and behavior of its prophet, plus its many references to fighting for the faith, to see the opposite.

Any reaching out to 'hearts and minds' of Muslims is purely a convenience, and out of self interest. If it involves compromise of principle it will backfire.

Mr Boaz yang dimuliakan,

It is easy sir, to build arguments that suit our beliefs. But objectivity is something we could only master with emptying our soul from desires and fears.

Simple look back to the history you can find that Muslims and Christians, or Pagans had commited aggresive brutalities to others, and even to their own people regarded as deviants. Lets not create an accountancy, it was undeniable, it was facts. If you could be honest, Christians won the worst examples in comparison to Muslims.

Your simple bible-koran theory have not yet make records in realities. Churches and Mosques are not precise simulators to our world, Sir. They are simulators to our imaginations.

If we could say that U.S is a christian nation, we can see now they must not have been well enlighted by Bible. And the light of Jesus were not bright enough to prevent the sad history of native Australians.

Simple doesnt mean true, Sir, the Tao works in secrecy.

Ayoohhhh Jelata.. "Yang terhormat" cukuplah.. jangan ini 'dimuliakan'.. not very mulia lah :)

Hmm.. I can take your point about what u said.. to a degree. My comparison between Koran and Bible is more accurately a comparison between Mohammed and Jesus.
As for America Syarikat being a 'Christian Nation' "I wish"..but sadly it is infuenced by greed and desire for power on a local and international level. Its capitalistic system requires constant feeding to maintain 'good looking numbers' for share holders etc.

There are people in the USA who are daily striving to rid America of allll things God and Christian, trying to turn it into a secular country. That would be a disaster.

When resources are dwindling in the backyard, they look further afield as every empire has done.

Such is the struggle of human existence.

I view the attempt at winning Muslim hearts and minds with the same cynicism I view most things political, it always things of the bottom line. Most likely in this case it is an 'oily' bottom line.

You mention the Tao..does this mean you are a Chinese of Indonesian nationality ?

Salam sejahtera Mr Boaz, (sorry for being hyperbolic in my previous greeting).

So you realize that there is a distance between Jesus figure and the societies that seems heavily influenced by his moralities. As I believe to misterious rules to this world, I can only suggest, hypothetically, that Jesus was too perfect for ordinary human for not getting frustrated when they try to stand on His values. As final result, christian values are no more like decorations in Western world.

And we have problems either in Muslims and Western. I suggest you expand your view to many things outside religions. For example, Israelians suffer terrors in Palestine is because the reaction from people when they feel their homeland are unjustly occupied by foreigners, just like what happened to Americans in Vietnam. Islam teaching about jihad then, is just something the Palestinian pick for it.

"You mention the Tao..does this mean you are a Chinese of Indonesian nationality ?"

No, I'm a javanese. Asian share many similarities in way of life.