Its about time the issue was opened up for discussion.
It is also ironic that the American Bible belt has aligned itself with the Jewish state after the biblical accounts of the Easter Crucifiction of their 'son of God'.

I am more inclined to have sympathy with the Palestinians whose extremists have been driven to revenge with suicide bombers and it is little wonder that Arab nations seek Nuclear Power and possibly nuclear weapons when Israel has the capability sanctioned by the US.

The phenomenon of declaring critics as Anti-semitic has parallels in critics of Aboriginal organisations in Australia. non-aboriginal critics are declared racist for having the temerity to speak on issues involving corruption and mismanagement.

ATSIC might still exist if valid criticism by non-aboriginals had been heeded and rectified.

The moment Israel stated that it wanted a wholly Jewish state, the UN decision to give away land belonging to other people, should have been revoked. Racism, war crimes, targeted murder, the starving of a nation of people, makes the Palestinian areas look like a remake of Warsaw.

To think that a people who had been through so much, would turn around and commit the same attrocities against their own neighbours, suggests that the state of mind that the Jews were in when given this land, was not one fit to begin a new nation. Today we would call it Post Trauma Stress Disorder.

If anyone wants a real taste of the extreme fundamentalist cruelty that has evolved in Israel, one needs only to partake in the forums that Haaretz has daily in its newspapers. To post a comment in disagreement with any Israeli policy, brings on attacks that are mind boggling, especially from the youth.

Israel should be bought into line with all other international laws, from nuclear inspections to assassinations. There are war crimes committed daily, and what happened in the second world war with the holocaust should have no impact upon todays laws, put in place for that exact reason. Israel shows no duty of care to diaspora Jews that become victims because of their Governments policies.
America has lost the plot, its own people are having their welfare and social services cut while billions of dollars in military aid go to helping Zionism bring us ever closer to a third world war.

Our own main stream newspaper owners are also guilty of completely bias reporting and coverage....if we knew the truth it would shock all into calling Israel to judgement. A good example is the cherry picking of the Iran Presidents speech regarding Palestine, one only has to read the full text of the speech to see the propaganda at play.

For a very different take on the Mearsheimer and Walt article:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

there is this:

http://www.slate.com/id/2138741/

from Christopher Hitchens.

Ah yes, Piggie, so you'd hitch your star to Hitchens, late convert to the neo-conservative cause, eh? Allow me to quote from George Packer's The Assassin's Gate: "After the terror attacks, he broke with comrades such as Chomsky and Said...became a vocal Bush supporter, and...girded himself for battle with what he called 'Islamo-fascism'... Having spent most of his life attacking American foreign policy, Hitchens had come to the conclusion that 'after the dust settles, the only revolution left standing is the American one. Americanisation is the most revolutionary force in the world.' " Some guide as to what's what in the US or the Middle East.

There is an old adage that "the enemy of your enemy is your friend"

The muslim extremists have clearly demonstrated that they regard Australia as their enemy. Long before we went into Iraq, Osama and others of his ilk ststed that they would attack Australia (I think our intervention in East Timor was the stated reason).

Another old adage is that "the friend of my enemy is my enemy".

On this basis Israel is a friend of Australia, and Palestine is an enemy.

No difference between USA and Isreal both need a cold shower, and to introduce some humanity into their governments.

Strewth:

I notice that this is a small step up from your usual hysterical shilling for Hamas. For this we should be thankful I suppose.

You point out that someone who once liked Hitchens no longer does. That is deep. Beyond which, you forgot to mention that he was a drink sodden former Trotskyite popinjay, as per George Galloway. No doubt one of your fellow travellers.

If you are going to perform a smear job at least have the relevant ammunition to hand.

Alternatively you could attempt to point out the errors in his response to the Mearsheimer and Walt article, a turgid and wholly nasty read that one. Talk about an extended exercise in innuendo with little supporting evidence. Much the same as the Loewenstein article.

I’ll leave you to get on with your spittle flecked anti Semitic simperings now.

Enjoy yourself.

Dearest Piggy Poo, George? Yeah, good friend of mine. Nothing escapes you now, does it? "Turgid and wholly nasty read"? Look, why not just come out and say it? It went way over your head now, didn't it? Still, I must admit, you do have a way with words: "Spittle flecked anti-Semitic simperings" - I like it! 10/10 for alliteration!

SHONGA, you are so right, these governments need to wake up and be more like the other governments in the region . Saudi, Iran Hamas ....

Part One

Hullo Antony - thanks for a much needed essay. Reckon it is about time aomething was done about Israel. It is not that most social scientists are not aware, but the true facts have been deliberately kept away from the public for years by a captive media.

The Brits warned the Americans back in the late 1940s that it wasn’t good politics to let the Jews resurrect the ancient Promised Land, as things have so much proven since. To give the Israelis their due they are an intellectually capable people, but they should remember that it was not the Arabs who practised the genocide against them but the Nazis.

Certainly us ordinary Aussies were sucked in for a long time, as many still are, but with virtually the whole of the rest of the Middle East anti-Israeli from the start, there was bound to be trouble. Then came the two Arab Israeli wars, all of us backing brave born again Israel, secretly congratulating the US for so quickly gifting the necessary planes, tanks and artillery.

Furthermore, the Israelis were told by the UN that they were entitled to hold onto the adjoining lands they had so courageously overrun, even though the right of conquest does not come under the UN Constitution.

But apart from a few social academics, not a one, even among the more radical media, felt for the Arabs.

Then in the early 1980s came undercover news that the Israelis not only had long range rockets but also had received designs to manufacture nuclear warheads to fit. We realise now that much was hushed up in our Western media about Mordecai, regarded as a no-gooder, rather than one with the insight as well as the guts to do something about which he was sure was wrong for Israel to have access to plans for atomic artillery, while the rest of the Middle East world was refused

Part Two

But lumped with America’s illegal attack on Iraq, it seems with Pax Americana on your side, you can get away with anything as long as it is also good for America, even the backing of Iraq in the early 1980s, chemical warfare and all helping the US to get its own back on Khomeni who saved Iran from US economic dominance under the US puppet shah.

Now we come to the real crux of the situation, and though having not read Antony’s essay thoroughly, might guess that what Antony is trying to say is that America’s over protection of Israel over the years ending in letting them become military nuclear will have future historians roundly condemning a nation that had with the victorious end of the Cold War, backed by a splendid record as regards the Marshall Plan, might prove in the end to have been a nation that blew its chances not so much to be the most respected but even the most ever treasured.

So we now wait to see what happens to Iran, which in reality has never attacked any other country in the Middle-East. Remember it was Iraq that initiated the eight-year war against Iran, and it is also well to remember that it was America that led Iraq on.

It is well to finish with two news clips, one from Tuesday’s West Australian, reporting that Israel has warned the United Nations of a new World War brought on by a new axis of terror against Israel.

The second clip is from last weeks “Guardian”. .”..... Israel should not look for a peace that the CIA foresaw, for Israel can still live without the intransigence that an arsenal of primed nuclear rockets is able to bring. A utopian notion perhaps, but there is still a chance for peace if Israel gave a promise to permanently defuse all those nuclear rockets at the ready, as long as Iran came to the party.

Peace is just waiting there to be arranged.

Big Fish,

I think Bob Brown should run the whole middle east and america...
dont u ?...:P

damn you Meredith,

I just spilt coffee all over the keyboard....My side hurts.

Israeli American relations have always been immune from honest debate. This is long overdue. I resent the millions of dollars that have gone to Israel so they can have access to better health care than I have. There have been many holocausts against peoples of the world, but the Jews are the one people who have taken that guilt and milked it for all it's worth. It's time the Jews stop manipulating America and stand on their own feet. America needs to turn attention homeward and take care of it's own people. This country is a shell of it's former self. Our insides are gutted.

Call me anti-semitic if you want to. I say stop using guilt to prevent an honest look at the actions of Israel and it's partner in crime the United Stated of America. Evil hides in the dark. Shine the light of truth on everyone.

I'm not afraid. I welcome this debate. The whole world will benefit.

Patty Jr, While agreeing with you that Israel's and America's (and Australia's) interests are not identical, nor should be, given that the latter two, whatever else they are, are not apartheid states, your loose talk about "the Jews" fails to distinguish between Jews and Judaism on the one hand, and Zionists and political Zionism on the other. I know that it's easy to screw up here because the two arms of political Zionism, the state of Israel and its fifth columnist Zionist lobbyists in countries such as the US and Australia have done their level best to conflate Judaism and political Zionism and convince everyone that Jew=political Zionist. So, lets begin at the beginning: Judaism, like Christianity and Islam is a faith that belongs to the private realm of the individual. As such it pre-existed political Zionism and will continue on long after political Zionism has gone the way of other reactionary -isms. Political Zionism, on the other hand, is a political ideology that, like all ideologies, needs to be judged by the extent to which it is compatible with the universal values of the UN Declaration of Human Rights and the standards of international law. Political Zionism, committed as it is to the establishment and consolidation in Palestine of a sovereign, Jewish state that attempts to guarantee in law and in practice a demographic majority of the Jewish tribes in the territories under its control, represents, therefore a form of apartheid based on the distinction in law between Jew and non-Jew. Not all Jews subscribe to this discriminatory ideology. Antony Loewenstein is an example. Many fundamentalist Christians such as Boaz-David do, which makes them political Zionists. A Jew (or a Christian, or even a Muslim) is only a political Zionist in so far as he subscribes to the program of political Zionism as outlined above. The distinction between Jews and Zionists is a fundamental one but it must constantly be made if we are ever to sort out the mess in Palestine.

Strewth, you speak on the subject in a more intelligent way than I ever could. My reaction is knee jerk at best. Certainly I have a simplistic view of the situation. I do believe though that an honest look at U.S. policy and aid to Israel in long overdue.

You're correct there, Patti.

Perhaps surprisingly, given that it tends to tilt slightly to the right, The Australian published a lengthy extract from Mearsheimer and Walt's article yesterday after a number of writers wrote previous columns rejecting it. The piece is available at http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18882383-28737,00.html for the next week or so.

Many of Mearsheimer's and Walt's claims seem readily testable, such as:

QUOTE
Israel receives $US3billion ($4 billion) or so in direct assistance each year, about one-fifth of the US foreign aid budget, and worth about $US500 a year for every Israeli. This largesse is especially striking given that Israel is a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to that of South Korea or Spain.

It is the only recipient that does not have to account for how the aid is spent, which makes it virtually impossible to prevent the money from being used for purposes the US opposes, such as building settlements on the West Bank.
END QUOTE

If the facts are correct it is simply wrong to reject the article out of hand. Government foreign aid is a pretty ordinary percentage of US GDP. If 6 million Israelis consume a fifth of it, that doesn't leave a whole lot for those of the world's 6 billion population who are in need of serious help.

The authors touch on the role of the evangelical Christian lobby in supporting Israel - but (at least in The Australian's extract) don't spell out the reason for their support. To evangelicals, Israelis are totally dispensible but their land is not: it is where the second coming of Christ is expected, just before the Rapture - which will whisk Christian believers to Heaven and drop nonbelievers into the fiery furnaces of Hell. Thus, Israel cannot be allowed to fall into the hands of infidels. (No, I am not making a joke, http://www.leftbehind.com/ )

What if there was a second coming of Christ and he was born and brought up as a Muslim?

The original version of the paper is at http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

MikeM, We cannot afford to ignore the religious reasons for the aid that Israel receives. Also we cannot afford to ignore the latitude Israel is given in using that aid. It has always been a mystery to me, Why? What benefit does the U.S. really get from this relationship? If it's all about the holy land then I feel very cheated. I'm sick of religion, religious wars, my God is better than your God. Why can't people keep their beliefs to themselves? If you are living your life in an exemplary fashion, people will notice and ask, what makes you so calm, happy, energetic. Why do you serve others so faithfully? Until someone asks, keep it to yourself.

I apologize for the digression off topic, I get frustrated.

How is this as a benefit for USA. Israel takes the focus of many of the extremeist elements in the Middle East that would otherwise find another target. As is stated in many places by these extreme groups (which are hopefully a minority) any form of western value system and democray with non-secular (?) based laws is incompatible with Islam and Sharia law. So is that worth the money to USA? I do not know. But lets hope that the minority stay that. But as in some cases minority groups can come into power Eg Sunni (is that right) in Iraq under Saddam.

I just hope reason wins out in Iran who should be spending all that nuclear development money on poverty in Iran and Middle East. But one way to maintain the power base is maintain the poverty as a form of oppression. If not then Sarah Connor quote applies to Israel " anybody not wearing 2 million sunblock is going to have a very bad day".

Thanks Strewth, for a bit of enlightenment about the Jews, re Zionists and dinkum Jews. But why has something not been done about it, mate? Is it because of Zionist-led neo-con influence not only in the white House, but also among the American born again right-wing evangelists, George W Bush being among them?

Looks real scary, but many of us are still standing firm - even though we have evidence among retirees n Mandurah Western Australia, where former Anglicans talk about receiving the light, part of which spiritual messages have been received about the Second Coming now well on the way, including news that the religio-historical ill-treatment of the young Jesus by the Jews has all been forgiven. So it looks like Christian fundamentalists and Jews, especially the courageous Israelies, and very likely the neo-cons, as well as the Zionists are all now on the same side.

Though it looks like we'd better believe it, there just may be a chink of light for us unbeliever Anglicans who still reckon its all poppycock, especially when we hear just lately that Karl Rove, said to be George W's main manipulator has just been given the boot, Karl being said to be an ardent Zionist, or a Zionist backer, at least.

You seem to be well up with such things, Strewth, so maybe you could enlighten us unborn Anglicans a bit more?

Cheers.

George C, WA - Bushbre

Big Fish, If Iran "should be spending all that nuclear development money on poverty in Iran" (I assume you mean 'relieving' poverty) when it has NO nuclear weapons, what should Israel, which has between 200-400 nukes, do when it has poverty statistics such as: child poverty has risen 50% since 1998; one in 3 Israeli children live below the poverty line; 24% of Israelis live in poverty?

MikeM:

With regards to the $3 billion per year. What follows is all from memory so please excuse any errors.

Egypt gets about 2 billion per year.

Also the way that foreign aid is dealt with is not uniform. I think that there is foreign aid, foreign assistance etc. All being from different departments and having separate intended uses and bureaucratic criteria to be adhered to. So to talk of foreign aid in some all encompassing way would be potentially misleading. This could be checked, I remember reading about it somewhere once but cannot be bothered to chase it up right now.

Also of note, I remember reading that Palestinians are the recipients of the most foreign aid of any people in the world. Or rather were at one stage.

Perhaps some extra perspective, for what it is worth.

Strewth, Israel should do the same thing. I agree that these countries should spend less on nukes and furthermore it sounds like that USA aid to Israel helps this situation some what. So send more.

Big Fish: Send more? Burden the US taxpayer even more? Your agenda is decidedly fishy. No, the solution is simple: end the illegal crime against humanity known as the occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights; dismantle the infrastructure of illegal settlement in the occupied territories; and tear down the Annexation Wall.

Well Strewth, I agree that this can be helped if this happens, But if Israel does that could we expect Palestinians to cease terrorism and other countries not to support terrorism? Hah. Simple fact is that if Israel gave up the areas you mentioned and you think that is going to be the end of it, then you live in la la land. As is stated many times over the destruction of Israel not matter what it consist of is a stated aim of certain groups. So frankly unless a philosophical change in the Middle East occurs then this "injustice" is going to continue. It can happen as shown by Egypt and Israel. Where Israel returned the Sinai. But both sides must be willing. I ask a question (again) why do ME countries support the Palestinians now and not anywhere as much when they were kicked out of Jordan.

And as to the aid from US taxpayers then all aid to Palestinians must stop too. In fact any country.

Big Fish: Fishy fantasy (wearing thin): Palestinians are terrorists hell-bent on the destruction of Israel. Stark reality: Israel has successfully ethnically cleansed the majority of Palestinians, exiled them, stolen their lands and destroyed their homes, and confined and caged the rest in a mere fraction of their former homeland.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Context is everything.

The Big Fish:

As an insight into the nature of the mindset behind the ‘problem’ may I suggest a quick glance at the following:

http://www.globalresearch.ca

Mr P Pig - Thanks , I think?

I know there is some irrational people out there. but what the... And maybe you know better than me I am finding over time that dealing in facts and reason does not work, so how does one debate with that.

I suppose I think too plainly. DELIBRATELY targeting civilians is not terrorism to some?!!. And having in the “charter” the destruction of another country is good diplomacy! Oh well I suppose people will be able to convert to another religion with out being considered insane or tried as a criminal?. Maybe that is the mindset. Irrational? As recently stated - it is a clash of reason and the irrational. Enlightenment and the dark ages. Lets hope reason wins?