I agree wholeheartedly. Professor Rothwell is spot on..............

I am disgusted with the direction of the Howard Governments grovelling appeasement of Indonesia who have been buoyed by the Bush Administration's smokescreen of 'terrorism' as a means to camouflage their own human rights abuses around the world.
Indonesia turns terrorism on it's head and accuses critics of their regime as terrorists !!

The whole world has seen the excesses of the Indonesian Military in the Santa Cruz massacre...The beast has not changed it's spots .

Australia has obligations under International Conventions which we must observe under our own terms and John Howard needs to treat the Indonesian impertinence as an intrusion of Australia's sovereignty and tell them forcibly to control the TNI Violence and govern their own country for the benefit of their citizens instead of world corporations and the enrichment of the ruling Javanese elites.

“Can Australia always decide who comes to this country and conditions under which they come?”

In reality, Australia does not make this decision. The people who have arrived illegally on Australian shores have not been picked by Australia, and they are invariably allowed to stay here. John Howard’s original statement was, and remains, complete nonsense.

“As a party to the 1951 Refugees Convention, Australia has obligations of providing protection to persons with a "well-founded fear of persecution" by reason of their "race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion".

How do we know that asylum seekers do, in fact, have well-founded fears of persecution? Does DIMIA just take their word for it? The whole process is kept secret, and we can have absolutely no faith that the people granted asylum in Australia are entitled to it, under the 1951 Convention or any other criteria.

On the one hand, this author says that Australia must respect international conventions on asylum seekers; on the other, Indonesia must respect Australian law on the matter. If Australia is merely seeing to its international obligations, it appears that Australian law has nothing to do with anything, and why would any country respect another which allows international law to walk all over it, as Australia has done under the Howard Government.

The ‘enhanced’ border patrols mention would be part of the ongoing farce – intercept, tow to Australia and grant TPVs. Unless, of course, the new measures of placing ALL illegals on excised islands announced today actually happens.

Australia has been far too soft on asylum seekers, and DIMIA appears not to have the competence to distinguish a genuine asylum seeker from an economic illegal immigrant, not helped of course by Minister Vanstone who throws her skirt over her head and blames DIMIA for everything.

The United Nations, for all its faults, has far tougher criteria for processing maybe-refugees than does Australia. Australia should stick to taking in those already processed in its official 12,000 per year intake.

Illegals should be repelled and discouraged at any cost.

Well written Leigh. Any illegal entrants should be processed off-shore and should they be found to be legitimate then they should be settled in another country, not necessarily Australia.

We've been letting the US make our decisions for us for years now. Why not let someone else take a turn? And why stop at war and asylum seekers? Why not let the Japanese decide what we can do with our marine life? Why not let China decide what we can do with our mineral resources, including uranium?

And if we don't have the competence to abide by UN sactions regulations, why expect us to be competent in any other area?

We've successfully demonstrated that we can't be trusted to abide by either international, or our even our own, decisions.

We successfully stopped middle eastern refugees from coming here by paying the UN and Indonesia to run refugee camps in Indonesia. Why not hand over the entire decision making process? They're hardly likely to grant refugees asylum in Australia while they can make money out of the camps, are they?

And if rights abuses do occur we always have the old standby - nobody told us.

Sensible article. Says just about the same thing as that by Brown a few days ago. I wd expect the "review" to be largely a sop to Jakarta...something to let them save a bit of face. Certainly we should not give Jakarta any effective say in our asylum policy or decisions.

Good thing Australian govt has come to its senses, now all barbaric Papuan separatist criminals fleeing Indonesia will not be sheltered in Australia, but they will be detained in Christmas Island, Nauru, or Manus Island PNG where these dangerous individuals belong.

ptbi
I would suggest you dont celebrate the decisions of John Howard too soon. The majority of the Australian people do not necessarily agree with his kow-towing to West Papua's Javanese repressors.
West Papua asylum seekers will continue to seek refuge in Australia whilst ever your military rulers oppress them.
What drugs are you taking that keep you from seeing the reality of military rule in your country where the elected government does not have effective control ?

When it comes to Australian foreign policy, there is only one certainty - Canberra's kowtowing to Jakarta's interest knows no limits. Whether it's the East Timorese, the Papuans, our own citizens (eg. Schapelle, Bali Nine) and even our own military (eg. Lieutenant-Colonel Lance Collins), Jakarta will be apppeased. Of that, PTBI you will have no fear. Our diplomats, Defence analysts, ONA, DPMC, and probably ASIO and ASIS as well are controlled by the Jakarta Lobby that will always and forever sacrifice the intersts of individual Australians, Indonesians, Timorese, Papuans and even Americans to what the government in Jakarta wants. Jakarta knows it and plays it well. The joke's on you, Australia!

As someone who lived in Indonesia for nine years, the only thing I can suggest is to make friends with the ordinary Indonesians as best you can, but expect nothing from your weasel government. When Jakarta and Canberra get to conniving, just stay well clear....

Sniggid,

From what Senator Vanstone said on the 7.30 Report last night - when she wasn't being cut off by an increasingly annoyed Kery O'Brien - it seems it will be the case that people deemed to be genuine refugees will not necessarily be allowed into Austrlia under the new rules. They may be placed anywhere in the world.

Vanstone reminded us that noone had the right to arrive in any country unlawfully, nor did they have the right to pick and choose which country they wanted to settle in. Good to hear!

Australia has allowed itself to be conned by country shoppers for too long.

Thanks Leigh

Wasn't Kerry O'Brien objectionable last night. You'd think he ran the country. He pretty well heads up those in the ABC who have appointed themselves as the unofficial federal opposition.

Have a nice Easter.

Kerry OBrian is always rude,tries to have his voice heard above anyone elses.
But to say that "asylum seekers" can be placed anywhere in the world sounds easy but who in the world is going to willingly take in any more?
Most Western countries are overflowing now with troublesome migrants .
It would be better for the wealthier countries to assist third world countries to improve the conditions rather that encourage mass migration.

Papua Merdeka !

The people fleeing the human rights abuse and colonialism of Indonesia have a 'legal' right to enter this country.

For those of you who do not not know what is going on , have a look at 'Genocide in West Papua' , Centre for Reace and Conflict studies, University of Sydney.

The vast majority of Australians who want to see an end to this endless stream of illegal immigrants entering this country will be pleased with Howard's new policy, which should please everybody. The immigrants will be re-located to a third country, where they will be safe, and they will not be in Australia, which will please most of the population here. Being of a sporting nature I would have preferred the government to have left the door open a little; restrict the migration area to Heard Island, require the open boat to have been navigated by a descendant of William Bligh, and they can stay as long as they like. Alternatively, the government could abrogate the refugee convention and bring back the Dictation Test. If the papuan immigrants were sent to New Guinea they would be secure there and out of our hair. I think the Indonesians would be happy with that too. The prime factor to be considered is Australian national interest, not the interest of the illegal immigrants.

Under the heading: Greens oppose third world country (Indonesia & West Papua)

The Australian Greens used the “A” word yesterday – appeasement - in describing the Australian Government’s decision concerning the future treatment of West Papuan asylum seekers.

Apparently, it is now called ‘appeasement’ when a first world country listens and tries to work with a third world country.

Members of the Greens have been identified as ‘enemies of Indonesia’.

see more at http://weekbyweek7.blogspot.com/

The whole refugee scene has become a host of usually culturally incompatables drawn towards our social security bonanza.( For example the Lebanese muslims). This scene is further corrupted by a lawyer fest veiled behind civil libertarians and do-gooders.

While the situation is impossibly difficult to strike a balance over that will appeal to everyone and not seriously offend some, I think Howard and Vanstone have again come up with about the best balance.

I am in general accord with Leigh and Sniggid: “Any illegal entrants should be processed off-shore and should they be found to be legitimate then they should be settled in another country, not necessarily Australia.”

It seems to me that there is nothing contrary to the 1951 refugee convention in this philosophy. Applicants will still be treated with respect and given asylum where they are found to be refugees.

While things may be pretty ugly in West Papua, we certainly don’t want to cause a situation by presenting a relatively open-door policy whereby there will be a mass exodus from Merauke to Weipa or Bamaga. That would only cause more heartache and stress for all concerned.

Yes it is reasonable to consider Indonesia’s responses and desires. The granting on temporary protection visas was an interesting ‘experiment’. Authorities presumably thought that the reaction from Indonesia would be much smaller. Now that it has proven to be enormous, an adjustment of policy is totally in order.

Maintaining good relations with our giant northern neighbour is extremely important. Striking the balance with what they want and what we want will no doubt be very difficult again from time to time. But on this occasion, it seems to me that it is a win-win situation, and not a loss for the Papuans.

Meanwhile we must continue to strive for humanity in West Papua…. and assert that we are watching very carefully what the Indonesian army and authorities do there

@Ludwig:

Your posts are mostly correct, except the last part about Australia "watching" Indonesia. This statement implies Australia has "moral superiority" and try to act as "defender of humanity" over Indonesia. This position is absurd since Australia has committed physical and cultural genocide on its Aborigines. We Indonesians knew very well of this despicable history of massive human rights abuses committed by Australia.

Hence, don't dream Indonesians will allow Australians, descendents of genocidaires, preaching "humanity" to us or intervening in our domestic affairs. Australia is just an insignificant country which is a minor stooge of USA, it never has and never will have any influence in Indonesia's internal affairs.

PTBI - countries that are 'watched' by western countries - such as Indonesia - are in that position for a good reason, usually because of their appalling human rights records. Although Australia's treatment of aboriginals has not been first class, your reference to 'genocide' shows your lack of knowledge. There are plenty of aboriginals in Australia and the government has spent many billions of dollars in its attempt to make good the damage done. Can Indonesians say the same about East Timor? I doubt it.

Rather than discussing the past, lets talk about right now. Lets address the treatment meted out to non-Islamic Indonesians - I'm sure you must be aware of the Christian churches destroyed and the people slaughtered by Muslim Indonesians - does the beheading of two teenage Christian girls ring a bell?

Your insults to Australia fall mainly on deaf ears, because insults from the recipients of millions of dollars in Australian aid show exactly what ingrates you truly are - perhaps the cupboard will be bare next time Indonesia holds out its begging bowl.

The involvement of Indonesian officials in the illegal immigrant racket, and the softness of the government on murderous terrorists speaks for itself. Not to mention the creeping radical Islamization that would dictate how people behave and dress in public.

You say you are proud to be Indonesian - I must ask you why? Has Indonesia ever contributed anything of value to humanity?

We certainly should not allow Indonesia any say whatsoever in Australian policies. Neither should we allow Australia to become a base for a West Papuan freedom movement. Perhaps this issue should go back to the UN where the decision to hand over WNG to a country whose people are of a different race, language and religion, was made in the first place. The UN may even make a decision, 12 years or so down the track ...

@dee:

Relax, mate. I am not in any way "insulting" Australia. I am merely telling the undeniable truth of physical and cultural genocide of Aborigines by the white squatters who illegally stole all Aboriginal land through illegal concept, "terra nullius". Your despicable behaviour such as massacring Aborigines and kidnapping their children led to the near-extinction of Aborigines at 1930s-1940s.It is clear Australia is the worst human rights abuser in the Asia-Pacific region. With such abbhorent track-record, Australia has no right to talk about human rights, as that would be like Hitler preaching virtues of Judaism.

I know the truth often hurts, but it must be told. ;-)

BTW, some addendum:

1) Indeed the fall of Suharto and subsequent democratisation of Indonesia had its terrible phase between 1999-2001 involving secterian clashes between religions and ethnicities. We Indonesians consider this the "price of democracy". It remains to be seen whether the fruits of democracy is worthy of its costs.

2) West Papua has many linguistic, racial, and religious similarities with other Indonesians. Indeed Indonesia has the world's largest Melanesian population.

3) Indonesia is not in any way dependent on "aid money" from anybody. There were hundreds of countries helping Indonesia during the tsunami as expression of humanity, from Afghanistan sending a dozen doctors to USA sending two aircraft carriers and one hospital ship. However, only Australians have the gall to despicably demand Australian impunity from Indonesian law (Schapelle Corby) and to openly sympathise with our separatist enemies, just because they gave some aid. We Indonesians find this behaviour extremely disgusting. Such blunders clearly indicate Australian immaturity, which render your country unfit for the position of even a minor regional power.

4) You should listen to your government's decision to change the immigration law so no barbaric Papuan separatists can be sheltered in Australia. Indeed it is good your govt came to its senses after Indonesian complaints.

I am intrigued that PTBI adopts a position that 'white'Australians stole the Aborigines land under the notion that this Country was not owned by it's indigenous inhabitants who have been agitating since about the 1960's for the return of their land under their own sovereignty; Yet he will not see that the position of the West Papuans is the same: their land usurped by Javanese neo-Colonialism.

The difference between the two situations is that the Australian Judicial system continues to adjudicate the matter of Land Rights where much land has been returned to Australian Indigenous people who control and administer it ...

While the West Papuans are denied such justice...Instead they are oppressed for seeking redress...killed for raising their flag, having their country's resources plundered and having their land given away to transmigrants.

The ravings of PTBI's extreme Nationalism is just empty rhetoric crap which is reminiscent of 'Iraq Ali' Saddam Hussein's Minister for Information who continued to fabricate reports that bore no resemblance to fact.
Iraq Ali believed that if he kept repeating his falsehoods,people might eventually accept them as truth.

Sorry PTBI, you can't have it both ways. If Indonesian law applies to Schapelle Corby, then Australian law obviously applies to the West Papuans coming here. This is especially so given the endemic corruption of Indonesia's "justice" system. A quick check of the Corruption Perception Index at www.transparency.org will show Australia in the top 10 in the world and Indonesia in the bottom 20. I know the truth often hurts, but it must be told.

I agree with you that Australia's shameful treatment of Aborigines is a blight on our history. Of greater concern to me however are the ongoing health problems and incarceration rates of our indigenous population. Until these problems are fixed we cannot consider ourselves a just and multicultural society.

Best of luck with the democracy experiment in Indonesia.

Get some information and make informed opinions.
See http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/89812/1/

PTBI - How would you categorise your diatribe about 'genocide' etc if not as an insult? The Indonesian government allowed so-called militias to loot, burn, rape and murder those who objected to Indonesian imperialism in East Timor - could this be the reason why Indonesians are so 'offended'? Because the treatment meted out to the East Timorese was exposed to world opinion?

Australians long ago came to terms with the sins committed against aboriginals by the first settlers and have tried to make up for it, so I ask you again, when does Indonesia intend to do the same with regards to East Timor? Indonesia illegally invaded the territory in late 1975, falsely claiming to have been invited in by popular consent (something like 98% of East Timorese were happy to live under rule by a foreign country, Indonesia would have us believe?)

As for stealing aboriginal land - much land has been returned to the indigenous people voluntarily, but Indonesia fought tooth and nail to hold onto East Timor. You may also ponder the fact that Australians have built a wealthy country in the past 200 years - the aboriginals built nothing during the 40,000 or so years of their occupation of Australia.

Its strange that someone who shows such concern about Australian aboriginals should call New Guineans 'barbaric'. Are they 'barbaric' because they want no part of Indonesian imperialism, and wish to rule their own country and benefit by its resources?

I was not referring to tsunami aid, although both the Australian govt. and ordinary Australians gave generously. The estimated total aid flow from Australia to Indonesia for 2005-2006 is $AUD160.8 million. Australia has been a major donor of humanitarian assistance to Indonesia since the economic crisis of the late 1990s, and responded immediately to the tsunami disaster by forming an Australia-Indonesia Partnership for Reconstruction and Development, a commitment of $1 billion over 5 years in addition to the $160.8 million already mentioned.

Define it how you like, it sure sounds like aid to me, and to most Australian taxpayers, no doubt

@maracas:

It is not me who decided whites stole Aboriginal land. It is your own Australian High Court who decided the "terra nullius" concept is illegal in its 1995 Mabo Decision.

No wonder, in "terra nullius" concept, whites considered Australia as "uninhabited land". Aborigines who had lived there for 50,000 years were considered "non-existant", their land rights instantly deprived, while all Australia suddenly became "crown land" to be sold in parcels to white squatters. Not only whites stole Aboriginal land, you stole their children as well (stolen generation) with intention to annihilate Aboriginal culture.

Compare this with Indonesia who always appreciate native titles everywhere. We established MRP (Papuan People's Council) to define and arbitrage for native Papuan tribal law and land-ownership. If any land were needed for mining/timbering/transmigration purposes, the natives got more than enough compensation and were given preferential employment opportunities. Politically, by law all governors and district chiefs must be native Papuan, who are elected directly by the people. Economically, central Indonesian govt subsidise Rp 1 trillion for West Papua annually.

It is clear Australia preaching "human rights" to Indonesia is like Hitler preaching Judaism to Israel!

Maracas's denial of the theft of Aboriginal land by whites as determined by his own High Court, in addition to his bizzare ethnic-hatred on Javanese people (does he even know any Javanese person?) just underlines ignorant racist immaturity of Australians which render your country unfit for any position of regional responsibility.

@Johnj:

There is huge difference between a drug-smuggling case of Corby and giving shelter to our barbaric Papuan separatist enemies who are intent on doing harm to my country Indonesia from Australia. Indeed Indonesia has corruption problem, much has been done to remedy this problem (eg. jailing of governors and ministers). Again, cases like AWB scandal and Victoria police mafia links shows Australia has nothing to be proud of in terms of corruption as well.

PTBI, you are raving mate, rant rant barbaric evil asylum seekers.. why are you so concerned about it if things are all good in West Papua

Is it that you are scared more people are going to find out the truth?

@dee:

I know the truth hurts, mate, but you have to face it: Australian whites are just thieves squatting in stolen Aboriginal land for too long. Your own High Court acknowledge this.

Since when did Australia "came to terms" to its genocidal nature? How many percent of Australian land has been "returned" to Aborigines? How many Aboriginal PMs have you had? Have the whites paid the Aborigines for all the land they stole (whole of Australia)? Have the whites compensate Aborigines for all the pain you inflicted on them? Have PM John Howard finally apologise to Aborigines?

Some addendum:

1)East Timor was taken-over by Indonesia as a favour to Australian and American requests to prevent establishment of communist state there under Marxist party Fretilin in 1975.

2)Indonesia had the support of various anti-communist East Timorese parties such as APODETI, KOTA, Trabhalista, etc (Balibo Declaration). The younger brother of Jose Ramos-Horta, Alexandre Ramos-Horta, participated in invasion of East Timor as Indonesian auxillary. Indeed, half of our 1975 invasion force consisted of East Timorese anti-communist auxillaries.

3)After end of Cold War and fall of Suharto, President Habibie decided to expel East Timor from Indonesia through referendum as the province was becoming bottomless cesspit for govt subsidies. President Habibie is the person with 100% responsibility for East Timorese independence, without him East Timor would still be part of Indonesia.

4)I only call evil Papuan separatists as "barbaric" because these people exclusively engage in barbaric terrorist acts of murder, robbery, and kidnapping on Indonesian and foreign citizens. They consitute only a tiny minority of native Papuans, most of whom are civilised. The 42 barbaric separatists do not represent 1.5 million native Papuans.

@hellothere:

What will Australians think if Indonesia sheltered Osama bin Laden and allow him to plot destruction of Australia from Indonesia? It is the same feeling Indonesia is having on Australia nowadays. If Indonesia was Israel/USA, we would have bombed Australia and send agents to assassinate these "asylum-seekers".

Luckily, Australian govt has come to its senses and refused to allow more barbaric Papuan separatists from getting shelter in Australia.

Many Australians seem to believe that they are superior to Indonesians and others because of this country's relative affluence and "freedoms".
Yet there are many places in the world where people do not so highly prize "economic prosperity" or even societal attributes that the Oz media et al would describe as "freedoms".
I have read of Africans who want sharia law enforced to stop the spread of HIV aids and sexual abuse of children.
The Australian police are spending time in Asia trying to help them solve crimes while here in Australia the illicit drug trade, identity fraud and other crimes of corruption are presented in practice as normal or unsolvable

Howard grovels just as Keiting did but fact is while Howard used Tampa to say who would come to Australia our near neighbor is now telling us who will not.
Time will see another east Timor like outcome as a people who do not belong in Indonesea are free.

Thanks PTBI for so clearly backing the Papuan-asylum-seekers claim. You always refer to these people as barbaric separatists and even supported TNI's murder of Theys Eluays. Are you saying then that if we were to return them (as your government demands), they would not be punished?

Indonesian Ali, (alias PTBI)
If you were a keen student of the history of Indonesia you would know that the fledgling republic of Indonesia succeeded in establishing itself and repelling the Dutch attempts to regain control of its colony after the end of WW 2 with the help of Australian workers and supporters of your freedom who imposed boycotts and bans on Dutch attempts to rearm and maintain supply.
The Dutch had the support of Churchill and the Australian Menzies Government.

West Papua was retained by the Dutch at the request of the British and Australian Governments as a buffer for Papua New Guinea and was not seceded until 1963 by the infamous "Act of No Choice".

You can rest assured that despite the kowtowing of the Howard Government, and their disgraceful grovelling to the corrupt Indonesian military regime presently in control of the Republic of Indonesia, that freedom loving Australians will continue to support the people of West Papua in their struggle to regain control of their land as we did for Indonesia in 1945.

If you are interested in informing yourself of this period in your country's history, I suggest you read Rupert Lockwoods authoritative historical account in "Black Armada". You might then understand that with the exception of such rednecks as oppose asylum seekers the ordinary people of Australia do not necessarily support John Howard's grovelling to appease a corrupt regime

PTBI, you wrote; “Ludwig, Your posts are mostly correct, except the last part about Australia "watching" Indonesia. This statement implies Australia has "moral superiority" and try to act as "defender of humanity" over Indonesia.”

No, no. You are reading implications into my statement that were not intended. Just as many countries carefully watch what is happening in various trouble-spots around the world, and as various countries watch Australia, especially regarding asylum-seeker issues, Australia will be observing happenings in West Papua.

The implication in my statement is that we won’t be turning a blind eye and will let discontent be known loudly, just as Indonesia did over Australia’s actions recently.

This must be viewed as a good thing. Every country has a right to watch its neighbours and attempt to maintain or increase accountability. It does not imply superiority.

You presumably agree with my statement; “Yes it is reasonable to consider Indonesia’s responses and desires.” But then you wrote; “Australia…never has and never will have any influence in Indonesia's internal affairs.”

Well that’s not fair and reasonable. If you agree with my statement then you must surely agree that it is fair and reasonable for Australia to expect to have some bearing on some aspects of Indonesian internal affairs.

PTBI - sorry to disappoint, but your 'truth' doesnt hurt. Its an unfortunate fact of life that weaker cultures are invaded by stronger ones. This process has happened since the beginning of time. Indonesia was originally Hindu, was it not? Now it is Muslim.

Re John Howards refusal to 'apologise' to aboriginals - in whose name should he apologise? Not in my name, certainly, since my ancestors were not in Australia at the time of settlement. What you are proposing - that Australians in general should apologise to aboriginals for things that were done by other white people a few hundred years ago- is clearly absurd. How about post WWII immigrants? Are they required to 'apologise' too?

Native title rights in Australia vary from limited right of access to visit important places, or to hunt and fish to a right to possess, occupy, use and enjoy the land in a way similar to freehold ownership. Native title rights may also include the right to carry out other kinds of traditional customs. Native title holders have the right to be compensated if governments acquire their land or waters for future developments, and may also have a right to negotiate over mining developments and mineral exploration. Has Indonesia granted this right to West New Guineans regarding the gold mines in their country?

The Australian Federal govt. spends A$3 billion ($2.2 billion) a year on aboriginal welfare of various kinds. Perhaps you should do some research on this also.

In reply to your question ‘What will Australians think if Indonesia sheltered Osama bin Laden ..."

I guess we would think the same as we already think about the ‘cleric’ Abu Bakar Bashir’s 30 month prison sentence for his part in the deaths of 200-odd people, including 88 Australians. His conviction and prison term are about to be overthrown, are they not? Indonesia has plenty of big brave jihadis (who behead teenage girls) plotting our destruction. Too bad the Indonesian government is more concerned with nailing western drug dealers than doing something about Islamic terrorism.

Indonesians complain about Australia's role in East Timor becoming independent, but what were the facts?

Howard wrote a letter to President Habibie in December 1999 suggesting a referendum for East Timor after a period of experience in autonomy like the French did very successfully for New Caledonia. A month later, Habibie announced a referendum, but no transition period. At the same time, TNI set up militias to terrorise the population into supporting the "autonomy" option. At the time, Megawati rightly criticised Habibie for giving the East Timorese a vote on freedom, but at the same time denying them a free choice by setting up militias.

Australia forcefully rebuffed suggestions that the UN personnel overseeing the vote be armed in the face of militia agression. In fact, it is not an exaggeration to say that the US might even have supported the sending of armed UN personnel if Australia had not so stridently opposed this in August 1999. Interfet forces were only finally sent in after Clinton threatened a economic embargo against Indonesia if it didnot "invite" in UN forces to contain militia violence. Australia contributed the bulk of Interfet firepower only after Indonesia (under duress mainly from the US) invited the UN in.

Interesting article… and a thoroughly amusing debate on this thread.

Some consistent theme’s need to be applied here. One, Indonesia has a dark, dark history when it comes to human rights abuses. To attempt to defend them is to either be clinically biased of definitively stupid. Two, Australia also has a disgraceful record itself with regards to its Indigenous peoples, and for that we should all be ashamed, as it continues to this day. To say, ‘it wasn’t my ancestors so not my problem’ is absurd. If you are a citizen of this country you are responsible for everything that occurs, sitting idly by in silence is no defence to anything.

The West Papuan people have an inalienable right to self-determination, just like the Indigenous people of this country. If they choose to fight for it, they are entitled to do so. If they are persecuted, killed and locked up as a result of that trying, then they are entitled to seek ‘refuge’ in a country that has the ability to accommodate them.

It is high time people in this country accepted that we need to be accepting more and more immigrants. We live in a global world, and someone’s nationality or country of origin should not determine their ability to be free from genocide or other forms of state persecution. Hell, its not like we have any shortage of space here!

Perhaps jkenno and many of the contributors to this page should move into the real world.

Australia takes more refugees per capita than most other countries. The new arrangements for offshore processing are not about stopping refugees leaving their country. They will be processed and if their claims are deemed legitimate they will be re-settled either in another country or perhaps in Australia. When you are a refugee you might have a preference for a particular country but not a right to choose the country.

This policy is simply about letting people in other countries know that you can't just set sail for Australia and that's it.

“It is high time people in this country accepted that we need to be accepting more and more immigrants.”

For goodness sake jkenno, you must be completely ignorant of sustainability issues and hence the very survival of society as we know it to advocate such an opinion? And even if Australia greatly boosted its immigration intake it would hardly make a dent on the world stage in terms of the numbers of people who aspire to our quality of life.

“If you are a citizen of this country you are responsible for everything that occurs, sitting idly by in silence is no defence to anything.”

Excuse me! What sillyness!! I am not responsible for everything that occurs in this country. If I was, things would be radically different. I even feel dispossessed of my 10 millionth (or however many voters there are) of the responsibility, by not having any decent representatives to vote for in the last few elections, not having any say whatsoever in national decision-making and being totally ignored despite having been an ardent lobbyer for many years of a variety of issues.

“The West Papuan people have an inalienable right to self-determination”

Self-determination may be the best way to go. But it may well not be, for a people who are basically a set of more or less independent tribal groups, who have no experience with nation-building, and who can not really be expected to develop an efficient and hassle-free system of central government that caters for all people across very rugged and largely isolated terrain. Just look at the history of PNG. There may be merit in them being part of Indonesia, PNG or Australia.

You could more realistically argue that each tribal group, language group or village should have self-determination, as they have had until recently. But of course, we are never going to go back to that.

@maracas:

LOL, your attempt to inflate Australian role in Indonesia is hilarious. Indonesia gained its independence by combination of fighting and diplomacy. Through fighting, we killed 4000 Dutch soldiers and lost nearly 20,000 Indonesians (mostly civilians massacred by the Dutch). Through diplomacy, our smart UN-ambassador managed to get kind President Truman to call Dutch PM Drees, threatening to cut all Marshall Aid for Holland if Indonesia was not given its independence. Australian unions did a short blockade of Dutch ships organised by Indonesian communists living in Australia, but this boycott has no impact since Dutch supply routes did not pass through Australia at all.

As you can see, INDONESIA OWES ITS INDEPENDENCE TO NO ONE BUT ITSELF!

BTW we don't really care what some immature Australians "think", you are just stooges of USA, a good friend of Indonesia. You better start behaving like the loyal lap-dogs you are, and start following the directive of President Bush and PM Howard to consider Indonesia as your allies. If you again exhibit unacceptable arrogant behaviour, we Indonesians are always ready to bitchslap you as punishment.

@Ludwig:

It doesn't work that way, mate. Australia has no influence in any Indonesian internal affairs ;-)

@dee:

"PTBI - sorry to disappoint, but your 'truth' doesnt hurt. Its an unfortunate fact of life that weaker cultures are invaded by stronger ones."

Ahh.. so you're saying since whites are "stronger" then they have the right to engage in physical and cultural genocide against Aborigines. And you don't need to apologise to Aborigines for all the pain you inflicted, since it is Aborigines' mistake for having "weaker culture".

Wow, your words is 100% like a barbaric Hitler-speech justifying his invasions and genocides.

My statement is correct, Australians preaching human-rights to Indonesia is like Hitler preaching Judaism to Israel.

NB:

1)Indonesia became Islamic through peaceful conversion due to dissatisfaction caused by Hindu caste system, not "conquest" like Hitlerite white invasion of Australia.

2)Indonesian "jihadists" couldn't care less about Australia. They want to overthrow Indonesia's secular Pancasila ideology and turn Indonesia into an Islamic country.

@rogindon:

LOL, Australia has nothing to do with the eviction of East Timor from Indonesia. Deal with it.

If you actually read history, the referendum was arranged by New York Agreement 1999 between Indonesia, Portugal, and UN. What Australia said or may not said did not matter.

PM Howard may send some letter, but Habibie's decision to expel East Timor was most likely decided by his Islamic allies who wished to expel "one million Catholics" from the republic.

@jkenno:

Indeed, Australia has a dark, dark history when it comes to human rights abuses. To attempt to defend them is to either be clinically biased of definitively stupid.

Can we really expect John Howard to be a supporter of Human Rights when he is abusing the human rights of his own citizens who votes for him over and over?

Australian's are losing freedoms more and more so on a daily basis now. How often do you hear them say, "Oh, we need stronger laws for terrorists", when in fact, they have no need for them?

Most Australian's do not realise that any peaceful protest can be ordered as a threat to national security under Howard's Sedition Law.

Howard and all the rest of these liberalists are fools, selling Austrlian's out so he can make money off his own people.

Not only should we drag him out of his office, we should dump him in the middle of the ocean in a leaky raft.

Ludwig, Boaz, dee, maracas, rogington et al….

You all seem like intelligent people, so why are you even bothering to answer any of the crap that some cretinous fundamental orifice of the porcine variety is throwing at you?

Can you not see that he is just jerking your chains to aggravate and bait you?

Are you not able to see past his ill conceived fabricated lies, libel and slander? His grandiose statements that Indonesians killed so many Dutch troops is a fabrication as it was a British force that suffered the most casualties and of course the communist inspired rebels killed off a few also in the late 40’s if I remember correctly and of course the Ambonese, who were mainly Christian, were massacred by the Moslem Indonesian…. But Hey what is the truth?

Cannot you see that as a Moslem he is not lying to infidels who would not know the truth anyway?

Even today president BangBangSillyArseholes was not happy with Howard for allowing the separatists sanctuary in Australia and I am certain this little illegitimate offspring of one of Keating’s “Babie Perternatkans” (sorry Boaz-David if the spelling is wrong) fresh from his mucking out duties is not frothing at the mouth to savage that little snippet as well ….

But, you really must understand that the best, and only way to deal with the child is to ignore what he writes and lies about - and to completely ignore him, let the little boy rant and rave because he is totally incapable of any logic and coherent thought – all you really have to do is remember the emptiest drum makes the loudest noise, but it soon implodes.

Kathryn Pollard you make some very interesting comments where say “I have read of Africans who want sharia law enforced to stop the spread of HIV aids and sexual abuse of children.”

Please provide the links to this outstanding piece of journalism, because the country of note at the moment is in Sudan and Dafur, where the Arabic Janjaweed militia forces are following the usual Islamic path of conversion, by raping, torturing and murdering women and children – or perhaps you might refer to that other bastion of integrity and honesty, Nigeria where the northern Hausa Moslems deep into sharia laws, have sentenced a young rape victim, SAFIYA HUSEINI, who went to the police and complained of rape to a stoning death, but seem to forget about the man who raped her…

Don’t forget of course that the Hausa were the brave tribe who obliterated the Biafran people in the early 60’s … or maybe it some other group of Africans you refer to – I really would be so very interested to know your source, if indeed you have one.

Try this report
The report warns that if left unchecked, sharia's further spread could provoke widespread inter-religious conflict, and transform Nigeria, Africa's largest nation, into a center of radical Islamism, linked to foreign radical groups and governments. Currently, 12 of Nigeria's 36 states have adopted or intend to adopt sharia. The enforcement of extreme sharia violates all human rights, especially religious freedom, and destabilizes this already fragile country.
The report proposes policy recommendations to the U.S. and Nigerian governments to prevent this pivotal African nation from sliding into lawlessness and terror. It is based on a Center fact-finding mission to Nigeria led by Senior Fellow Dr. Paul Marshall in 2001.
In some states Muslims are subject to sharia even if they prefer civil courts that have protections under Nigeria's bill of rights. Non-Muslims are barred from being judges, prosecutors, and lawyers in the courts to which they may be subject. Sharia state governments have destroyed dozens of churches.
http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/publications/newsletters/2002/Mar-Apr-May-Jun/newsletter_2002-Mar6.htm
so much for sharia....

Jkenno- almost every country on earth has a ‘disgraceful record’ of dealing with indigenous peoples, so why single out Australia?
Perhaps you could also explain why I am personally responsible for the treatment of aboriginals by other white Australians in a previous era? If I were truly responsible for everything that happens in Australia, both past and present, the country would be a vastly different place. And if there is one thing Australia does not need at present, it is more immigrants and refugees. Why on earth should we accept more people to our own detriment?

PTBI – I have never said that white people have the right to destroy others because they are stronger. That is a complete misrepresentation and fabrication on your part. I said that 'might over right' is unfortunately the way of the world, if you care to reread. I liked the bit about Hitler, though. Tired clichés about Nazis and references to ‘Hitler’ are usually the refuge of limited minds. I notice that you have not answered one question I have asked you, so I don’t propose to waste more time.

‘Indonesia became Islamic through peaceful conversion’ -- really. Indonesians were exempted from the violence and slaughter used by Muslims to ‘convert’ others in every other area it has invaded? If this is so, Indonesia is a startling exception to the usual events of Islamic conquest.

Kekenidika - I bothered to answer because this is the way to expose those with no agenda except bias and prejudice. It is easy to see that PTBI and co. not only dislike Australians, but have no rational answers to any question I asked. Any reasonable question is ‘answered’ by reverting to the aboriginal issue. The best defence is offence, in the view of some people - which proves my point.

“It doesn't work that way, mate. Australia has no influence in any Indonesian internal affairs”

PTBI, answer these straight questions then please;

Does Indonesia have a right to influence Australian policy? Were they completely wrong to object in any way to Australia accommodating West Papuan asylum seekers?

In lieu of your answers (which are already clear from our couple of previous exchanges), it seems that you expect Indonesia to be able influence Australian policy, but you completely reject Australia’s right to influence Indonesian policy!

Are you for real? Are you in this debate for serious reasons, or is Kekenidica getting very close to the truth with;

“Can you not see that he is just jerking your chains to aggravate and bait you?”

@Kekkendika:

Sorry mate, your babbling is incomprehensible. I guess you cannot formulate any coherent reply in face of my disclosure of the genocidal nature of Australia which indicate your moral inferiority compared with Indonesia.

@dee:

Read this link for a timeline of Indonesian history:
http://www.gimonca.com/sejarah/sejarah.shtml

LOL it is quite clear I have solidly rebutted all your points intended to bash Indonesia. I've shown how Australians' point-of-view regarding Indonesia clearly shows your immaturity and lack-of-intelligence:

1) You view yourselves as "morally superior" over Indonesians, but it is you who have committed genocide against Aborigines, genocide you justify with barbaric Hitlerite excuse that you have "stonger culture" while Aborigines have "weaker culture". It is clear who Australia is "morally inferior" to Indonesia.

2) Australians insinuate "military intervention" in Indonesia, while the fact is you have no capacity to disturb Indonesian territory. Not to mention you are just a stooge of US policies, which includes support of Indonesia.

@Ludwig:

You completely misunderstood our situation here, mate. We never intend to "intervene" in your internal affairs. We merely seeking justice. We demand Australia cease becoming a threat to Indonesia. Using common sense, good neighbours don't shelter criminals who regularly shot at thier neighbour's house with AK-47s. If we demand you stop sheltering these violent criminals, we ARE NOT "intervening" in your affairs, we are demanding you not become source of security threat to our "house". Kapisch, Herr Ludwig?

PTBI, your response was almost believable, but you completely and utterly undid it with;

“Kapisch, Herr Ludwig?”

You fool.

Kekenidika was right.

@Ludwig:

Was ist falsch? Werden Sie beleidigt? Warum Sie so empfindlich wie ein kleines Kind? Wie alt sind Sie?

PAPUA MERDEKA

PTBI -

Definition of 'Genocide': the extermination of a national or racial group as a planned move.

I wonder who are all these aboriginal-appearing people hanging round Australia? Didnt we murder them all? - must have missed a few ...

Re Australia being on a moral par with Indonesia - Australia is clearly slacking in this area. Australians should immediately:

- attack the Indonesian embassy screaming threats and throwing rocks.

- blow up the Indonesian Embassy so we can be on par with the attack on our embassy in Jakarta.

- form Christian gangs to attack and behead anyone (esp. teenage girls) who is not a Christian.

- the Australian govt. should clearly ignore Christian terrorists in case we outrage their civil rights.

- all Australian Christian terrorists should - oh wait a minute, what am I saying --- they're arent any ....

Dee,

Well said. I recall last year, in response to the (it turns out false) claim that Corby supporters had sent a dangerous powder by mail to the Indonesian Embassy in Canberra, Howard said: "How would Australians feel if they harmed our embassy?" This shows what a sop our government is to the Jakarta lobby. Firstly, there was no biological attack on the Indonesian Embassy in Canberra (it was probably just a ploy to get Corby supporters off the govt's back), and secondly, the Indonesians had just bombed our embassy in Jakarta 9 months earlier killing a number of local staff. Schapelle's supporters calling for a boycott of Bali is about as terrorist we are ever get in Australia.

Coyote - Brave posting there with your own PAPUA MERDEKA .... but I feel that you will soon be drowned in offal and pig swill by that Ora with an infected mouth.

This little boy has lost his grip on history and seems to forget most, but then again what else could a cretin, rather than a savant, do except spew forth lies and calumny - East Timor was invaded and the indonesians massacred almost a third of the population there - but without their superior numbers, their guns and weaponry, they run and cringe like mongrel dogs after a flogging, but isn't that the way of all cowards?

If you view any of his falacious postings, you will of course note that his drool has far outreached his miniscule brain cell, but come to reflect on that, I feel if he had another brain cell it would be so terribly lonely - fancy prattling on in suedo German to Ludwig and then call him "mate" and really I do wonder where the AK47's come from must be the new issue from the Australian Army ....

And DEE
sorry there my friend, but you would be far better off argueing points with Weizenbaum's Eliza. As for any strong argument you put up - any gibbering monkey would denigrate your point and ....

Well go here http://www-ai.ijs.si/eliza-cgi-bin/eliza_script and enter "I feel hated"

Don't you feel better already?

K. -

'Do you often feel hated?'

only since the Australian govt. allowed lunatic Islamic bigots to enter Australia and tell us how much they hate us and how superior their 'culture' is - whilst living off Australian taxpayers and fighting tooth and nail to stay here.

Its a confusing world for anyone with rational thought processes.

Interesting to read the ramblings of PTBI, typical of most Indonesians who can't think for themselves and toe the State line which has been preached to them in a Mosque by some Mullah. The trouble is most have a Chip on their shoulder, they are Jealous of the way we can think for ourselves with out looking over our shoulder, the way we do not have to bribe or pay a kickback to every other official to get something done, our high standard of living, the wide open spaces we live in etc etc.
I do agree with some thing he said, we are letting to many of those stinking disease ridden boats & crew through.It is time the Australian Navy was given permission to blow these boats out of the water instead of wasting time & money by catching them & bring them back to the mainland where they might infect some one.

PTBI, why do you resort to offensive stuff, at the first sign of disagreement? Ever heard of tact and decency or at least neutrality?

Who has the sensitivity of a small child?

We started off with a great deal of agreement. I picked you up on one point of debate.

If you are going to get rankly stupid with people over one disagreement when there is predominant agreement then you are a fool indeed, no two ways about it.

Now you obviously need to go take a cold shower.

Can’t you see PTBI that on this national forum – the most prominent political/socio-economic forum in Australia, which can be accessed worldwide, that tact and decency are rather important. You, as the sole representative of Indonesia really NEEDS to keep it tactful, no matter how rough some of us Aussies might get. You are an ambassador for your country. You cannot afford to lose the plot and get deliberately offensive.

You don’t know who you are offending, or who is reading this stuff.

Do your country and your own cause a favour and practice diplomacy.

Again, I agree with a lot of what you have to say. So for goodness sake don’t offside those who agree with you, or those who disagree and wish to hold sensible debate with you.

If I was a highly articulate person who, for some perverse reason, wanted to stir up anti-Indonesian sentiment in Australia, I would find a popular Australian website with a comments forum.

Next, I would give myself some slightly provocative and possibly misleading tag (similar to chainsmoker-do you assume cigarettes or trout?).

Then I would set about using a mixture of facts, fantasy and probably a bit of name-calling to get people to really dislike me. I would probably enjoy watching the results of my posts.

If I was a real whiz with language nobody would notice when I slip out of character from time to time.

PTBI, if I could get my Australian students near an approximation of your mastery of English spelling, grammar and punctuation, not to mention your vocabulary, I would have done very well indeed. And such rapid progress over a few posts. Truly amazing.

@dee:

How dare you blame the whole Indonesian people for terrorist incidents, while almost all the victims of such attacks are Indonesians themselves? You totally insult our govt and police who worked hard to put most of the perpetrators of these crimes in jail and kill some of them, under the debilitating constraints put by the new democratic system.

Meanwhile, the barbaric Papuan separatists and their supporters who organised cruel terrorist violence on Indonesian citizens from Australia remains free to organise more violence!

@Kekkendika:

LOL, your babbling is becoming more cryptic and incoherent. I guess you are upset that Indonesians don't consider Australia as "superior", while our govt's complaints received direct reply from Australian govt by way of changing the immigration law and sending head of DFAT to make necessary apologies.

@I am Australian:

LOL, your anti-Islamic hatred is irrelevant to the topic since Indonesia is a secular state based on Pancasila, with the second-largest Christian population in Asia. Indonesians enjoyed much personal freedoms as people in Western countries. Here's a link showing the easy-going lifestyle of Indonesian girls:

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8772&st=2300

BTW I suggest you shed your anti-Islamic religious hatred. That kind of religious hate would only drive more Muslims into the hand of bin Laden. Your attitude is more fit for mediaeval Crusades times than the 21st century.

@Ludwig:
Entspannen Sie sich, mein Freund. If Australians decided to bash Indonesia, then inevitably there will be not-too-friendly Indonesian response. Every action will cause a reaction, that is just law of nature.

@chainsmoker:
Thanks, buddy. Indonesians are becoming very fluent in English languages nowadays.

@Kekkendika:

LOL, Indonesia "killed one-third" of East Timorese population? What a joke. Actually, between 1974 and 2000, East Timorese population nearly doubled thanks to healthcare improvements and lower infant mortality rate under Indonesian supervision. We must be so bad in "genocide" if the "target population" actually doubled instead of being reduced.

PTBI - 'How dare you blame the whole Indonesian people for terrorist incidents ..'

I am merely following your own example. How dare you blame the whole Australian people for the mistreatment of aboriginals? In almost every post you have made on this forum, you have accused Australians of 'genocide' etc etc. How does it feel to be accused of something you had no part in? I see you are angry - good. Your indignation may lead to rethinking your absurd accusations against Australians - although I doubt it.

Chainsmoker - 'If I was a real whiz with language nobody would notice when I slip out of character from time to time ..'

I noticed.

“If Australians decided to bash Indonesia, then inevitably there will be not-too-friendly Indonesian response. Every action will cause a reaction, that is just law of nature.”

In other words, if you complain about heavy treatment then it is alright to dish out heavy treatment. Become what you are complaining about! Brilliant tactics!

Just about as brilliant as your notion that it is fine for Indonesia to meddle in Australia’s affairs, but it completely unacceptable for Australia to have any influence in Indonesian affairs.

It leaves me wondering whether you are just a poor communicator (which seems unlikely given your knowledge and willingness to keep on debating on this forum) or whether you do in fact have the motive of stirring up conflict as Chainsmoker suggests.

Your bizarre use of German achieves only one thing; to make you seem very Hitlerian.

Actually, it doesn’t leave me wondering at all. Your intentions are clear.

@dee:

LOL, are you trying to compare the despicable genocide you committed on Aborigines with the few terrorist incidents in Indonesia? Wow, you are losing the plot, you must be getting so desperate in face of my disclosures of truth.

There is completely nothing similar between the two cases. Your genocide and theft-of-land is an official Australian government policy which solely victimised Aborigines. Meanwhile, terrorist incidents were committed by a deranged minority who victimised mostly Indonesians. You whites still live in land stolen from Aborigines who never received any compensation or even any apology, and who've had their culture irrepairably devastated by whites, no whites were ever prosecuted for the genocides they committed. By contrast, Indonesian govt and police worked hard to arrest or kill terrorists under constraints placed by democracy.

As johnj said, Australia has too dark dark history of human rights abuses, to try to defend Australia is to be either clinically biased and definately stupid. Your despicable denial of responsibility is an unsustainable attempt to justify the white genocide on Aborigines after I destroyed your previous Hitlerite excuses about whites being superior from Aborigines.

@Ludwig:

LOL, so if Australians bash Indonesia, then Indonesia cannot respond? Hmm.. clearly you are not mature and fair as I previously thought. I am disappointed as I had higher expectations from you.

I think all Indonesia-bashing done by Australians in the past years deprived your country from any right to ask for respect from Indonesia. Face the fact: Indonesia don't need your "goodwill" at all, while Australia clearly need our "goodwill" as your PM Howard said.

PTBI, “so if Australians bash Indonesia, then Indonesia cannot respond?”

I have not said anything of the sort.

It is surely not in your interests to attempt to twist things around like this. You can get away with that sort of thing in the letters pages of newspapers, but not on a forum like this where readers can immediately refer back to the comments that you are responding to.

Now, you have probably well and truly done this on this forum, but for my benefit could you please explain just what you mean by Australia bashing Indonesia.

By the way, I like your second paragraph. I share the same very strong views regarding invasion and effective elimination of aboriginal occupation of this continent.

Despite seeing some of your stuff as being really terrible, I can still happily admit that we do share a fair bit of common ground

PTBI - why do you constantly need things to be re-explained to you? Do you actually read posts? Obviously not. I am not comparing the two cases, I am comparing attitudes. You obviously believe in the collective guilt theory, since you persist in blaming a whole nation for the actions of a few. So why should this belief not be applied to Indonesians and Islamic terrorism? If all Australians are guilty of the 'genocide' of aboriginals, then it clearly follows, by the same theory, that all Indonesians are guilty of supporting Islamic terrorism. Or does your collective guilt theory only apply to Australians?

No 'whites' were ever prosecuted for 'genocide' because genocide was never committed in Australia.

Hitler, Seig heil, blah blah blah - your nonsense makes me tired. Perhaps Australians should pull down the country we have built and give it back to the aboriginals and kangaroos. I'm sure Indonesia would love that!

No, sorry, we will continue to occupy the wealthy modern country we have built over the past 200 years and probably give generously when Indonesia holds out its begging bowl next time.

Please dont bother to continue your diatribe about 'genocide', stolen land etc etc. You are like a broken record, the same line over and over.

Dee .... obviously you are battering your head against a brick wall trying to argue points of history to an Orang gilé, but I did write some time ago that he is just jerking your (and everone else's) collective chains.

How many times have you put forward a point, when it not only laughs at you and not only refuses to answer, but then lies and calumniates further with spurious attacks on non existant genocide here in Australia.

Of course he relegates Australians to the same level of good old Adolph, all the while denying the genocide of the Indonesians in both East Timor (with the compliance of the almighty US of A.) but if you really want to know absolute denial of Muslim perfidery, try the Turkish genocide of the Christian Armenian population - where the Muslim Turkish Ambasador has now made the outstanding allegation that the minority Armenian population was selectively murdering the majority Turkish population .. oh yeah

Oh ... and Ludwig, you really think you share common ground ... Oh please? The only common ground he shares with anyone is to bluster, lie and insult and you belittle your own intelligence by trying to empty and empty drum.

Genocide... Try this definition:
Main Entry: geno·cide
Pronunciation: 'jen-&-"sId
Function: noun
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group —compare HOMICIDE —geno·cid·al /"jen-&-'sId-&l/ adjective
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=genocide

Sounds a bit like what the Indonesians have done, and are doing, rather than what Australians have been accused of commiting.

@dee:

"Perhaps Australians should pull down the country we have built and give it back to the aboriginals and kangaroos."

LOL, so you are now equalising Aborginals with kangaroo animals. And this insult came after you steal their land, killed those who disapprove of this theft, kidnap their children, and methodically wiped-out their culture. How cruel and primitive! You are becoming even worse than your hero Herr Hitler!

I remember, in 1950s, Australian govt put Aborigines in the category of "protected florae and faunae", along with koalas and marsupials. You still viewed these real Australians as nothing more than animals. Yet you dare claiming yourself to be "superior" and "civilised"? What a pathetic joke!

Enough is enough, return Australia to Aborigines and go back to whatever desolate English/Irish hamlet you came from! Apologise and compensate these real Australians for all the genocide whites committed for the past 200 years!

@Ludwig:

Mate, do not twist and twirl your way around like little ballerina. It is quite clear what you said.

@Kekkendika:

LOL, what does Turkey and Armenia got to do with the topic? You are clearly not in possession of your faculties.

I suggest you consume some valium and Saint John's Wart to sooth your emotional entanglement, and then take supplements consisting of Gingko biloba and Taurine so your future posts would show some coherence.

OK, Kekk-O?

Kekenidika,

“Oh ... and Ludwig, you really think you share common ground ... Oh please? The only common ground he shares with anyone is to bluster, lie and insult and you belittle your own intelligence by trying to empty and empty drum.”

Yes, so it seems he is only on this forum for these purposes. However, we do share considerable common ground. Why do you find that so hard to accept? Let’s be level-headed and not polarised about this. Just because someone is a ratbag doesn’t mean they can’t be partly right.

PTBI,

Well if you mastery of English is so poor that you interpreted some statement I made in a manner opposite to what was expressed, then let me clarify again; I did not say or mean any such thing. Of course it would be appropriate for Indonesia to respond, to anything that Australia does, whether it affects them directly, indirectly or just as a matter of principle. We believe in free speech. Indonesia can say what it likes or respond as it sees fit. If we then think the response is inappropriate, we have every right to say so.

How can you insist that I expressed something contrary to this when I specifically clarified last time that I didn’t? How silly.

I put a very straightforward request to you and you ignored it. It is absolutely central to your whole argument. So I’ll request it again;

Could you please explain just what you mean by Australia bashing Indonesia

PTBI - you are wrong yet again - my ancestors did not come from England or Ireland. Thats what happens when you jump to conclusions - you make yourself look rather silly. The people who settled Australia came from everywhere - the UK, Europe, China, the South Pacific, even Indonesia - get the picture?

Didnt you ever learn that resorting to personal abuse denotes a loser, in any debate?

Its highly unlikely that the inhabitants of Australia, NZ, the US, Canada, Japan, or any other nation with indigenous people will pack up and return to wherever their ancestors originated 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 generations ago - so if this is your sole solution, you need to do some serious thinking.

Are you a teenager? That would explain your one track mind and simplistic 'solutions' to serious problems.

This is my last reply to you, perhaps you should go away and grow up. When you can address people without resorting to stupid slurs about 'Hitler', 'genocide' and the rest of your arrant nonsense, perhaps you can return and debate with the grownups.

'Bye.

@dee:

LOL, so you are a "grown-up"? I guess you consider equalising Aborigines with kangaroos is very mature.

If you are really a grown-up, you'll understand the pain suffered by Aborigines by the dispossession of their land and the destruction of their culture, akin to plight of pre-Israel Jews after they are were dispossessed of their land.

If you are really mature, you'll return Australia to Aborigines. If you no longer remember what land you came from, you'll apply for the kind permission of Aborigines to stay in their land. You'll pay them compensation for the land you stay upon and for the pain inflicted upon them by whites. If you can't afford it, you'll ask for the white govt to compensate Aborigines on your behalf.

That is the only way whites can wash their sins you've committed on Aborigines.

@ludwig:

Don't play dumb. Read the common Australian newspaper or online forums bashing Indonesia, you got Ozzies threatening to destroy Indonesia, calling us "monkeys", "scums", "beggars". Australia has completely lost whatever respect Indonesians have for you a long time ago.

A ha! As I suspected. You are pulling out the very worst of Australian comments and making out that they represent the majority view.

For all your knowledge about Indonesia, and a little about Australia, you seemed to have built a house of cards upon a totally spurious foundation.

I read a great variety of comments on Indonesia. Some of them are pretty heavy. They come from the full spectrum of understanding – from experts to those who know nothing at all but are just expressing their prejudice, or from irresponsible journalists who want to pack a punch and thus exaggerate the criticism.

You’ve got to admit, only the very worst-end-of-the-spectrum respondents advocate destroying Indonesia, or use terms like "monkeys", "scums" and "beggars".

For goodness sake, most Australians have a vastly different view, if any view at all.

You are promulgating an ugly situation by beating up the few bad comments and quite frankly completely ignoring the rest. It seems that this is deliberate.

Shame on you

@ludwig:

LOL, don't worry. We Indonesians will never trust Australia. I hope Indonesians will never be fooled by lies of white Australians, we know well what you are: descendents of genocidaires who cruelly oppresses the indigenous Australian Aborigines.

I note that you have made no attempt to deny or explain away my assertion that you are taking the very worst comments of a few Australians and making them out to be the standard Australian view, or that you are deliberately playing up these negative comments and ignoring the rest.

You position is now patently clear – you are coming from an extremist perspective.

It is exactly this sort of mentality that leads to conflicts –

calling those who you think of as your enemies or opposition liars, “genocidairies”, etc,

saying that you will never trust them no matter what,

lumping them all together as totally bad, when you know full well that there is a broad spectrum of views and that there are many good people with the best of motives,

beating up the negative things and just taking the good stuff for granted and putting it out of sight and out of mind, and

making inciteful comments such as; “….white Australians, we know well what you are: descendents of genocidaires who cruelly oppresses the indigenous Australian Aborigines”.

You do realise this don’t you.

So can you give a straight answer to this question:- is it your intention to stir up strife on this forum, which will filter into other areas and increase polarisation and conflict between our countries?

Ludwig

On every thread regarding Indonesia, PTBI has successfully hijacked the debate into an attack on Australia's treatment of our indigenous Australians. He really knows how to press our buttons - well at least few of us.

This is why I do not bother with PTBI anymore. I gave him the opportunity to debate politely and reasonably without resort to insults - he has failed to do this.

I can only assume that your question to PTBI is rhetorical, clearly his agenda is to create division and hostility. If he really cared about rights of Australian aboriginals, he would join the many threads available on that topic at OLO.

Back on topic, the truth of Indonesian brutality over West Papua is emerging, in spite of PTBI's refuttals and our own spineless government's response to the plight of West Papua.

See: http://smh.com.au/news/NATIONAL/UN-appeal-for-stranded-Papuan-mother/2006/04/18/1145126097951.html

"Refugee advocates have appealed to the United Nations to help the wife of a Papuan asylum seeker, who has been forced to flee over the border to Papua New Guinea............Ms Wanggai, who separated from her husband two years ago, initially said her daughter was taken from her without permission.

But she now says Indonesian authorities coerced her into making the statement."

Regards

Dianne

Ludwig & co. - as someone previously asked me on this thread 'why are you wasting your time'? You are attempting to have a rational debate with somebody who thinks that putting the word 'and' between two nouns equates the two nouns - eg 'aboriginals and kangaroos'.

PTBI states 'Australian govt put Aborigines in the category of "protected florae and faunae", along with koalas and marsupials. You still viewed these real Australians as nothing more than animals. Yet you dare claiming yourself to be "superior" and "civilised"? What a pathetic joke!'

I agree, that statement is a pathetic joke. The heinous sin I committed was to use the words 'aboriginals' and
'kangaroos' in the same sentence. For example, if one follows this trail, 'Comanches and buffalo' would equate Comanches with buffalo. Ergo! Obviously the writer is calling Comanches animals. 'Divers and fish' - divers are being called fish!

Pathetic. 'genocidaires'? Even more pathetic. Kind of puts things into perspective, though

I am hoping that the ridiculous statements from PTBI are just an extremist POV and we can just dismiss them. However what if such views are commonly held among our neighbours? Surely we should be doing far more to ensure that our opinions and understanding of other cultures and vice versa are more accurate. Where are all the independent researchers when we need them? Why are people's views of history so different when information is so readily available via the internet? I can only assume that schools and media in Indonesia are teaching something very different from those in Australia. This is a problem in other regions too, especially the Middle-East, and may indeed be a major cause of world conflict.

@Dianne/Scout
You are speaking about Siti Pandera Wanggai.
Please note, that it's not Siti Pandera Wanggai herself who claimed that Indonesian authorities made her lie. It's David Manne, (Yunus Wanggai's lawyer) who claim that she said so. Personally I do not trust David Manne.
The Age reported that they have a phone conversation with Siti Pandera Wanggai, but there's no guarantee that it's a real Siti that they talked to. Maybe someone posed as her. If she really talks to The Age, then why she did not use the chance to ask to talk to her daughter Anike?

Meanwhile, Indonesian media had met Siti Pandera directly and interviewed her briefly. Siti also said that her estranged husband was an abusive man. She even showed the journalists a scar in her thigh, which she said it because of Yunus hit her with a machete (TheJakartaPost).
Siti Pandera also had met Papuan acting governor, to ask for help. And according to the governor, when he met her Siti's feeling seemed genuine. There is no sign that she was forced at all.
Siti also had spoken with the Indonesian foreign ministry, and she cried when she asked for help to bring her daughter back to Indonesia and it seemed genuine.

So Dianne/Scout, to say that Siti was forced by Indonesian authority to make false claim about wanting her daughter back, (and that she was forced to flee to PNG), more proof is needed other than what David Manne has said.

And by the way, the family of Anike Wanggai and Siti Pandera has met Presiden Yudhoyono. David Manne previously said that Siti's family were forced to do that and that Siti's family fear of persecution. But Marvin Wanggai, one of Siti's family who met the President boldly said "That's not true!"
If you understand Bahasa Indonesia, here are some of the links.
http://www.liputan6.com/view/3,121422,1,0,1145966712.html
http://www.liputan6.com/view/1,121409,1,0,1145966586.html
http://www.liputan6.com/view/1,120761,1,0,1145277232.html

Regards

Scout, Dee, Ludwig, Dianne and Co. (in no particular order - sorry Di - got you twice!)

First off feel free to borrow my brick wall, whether you bang your head, or talk to it, the feeling and repsonse will be the same compared to .... and it REALLY will feel so nice when you stop.

You will of course note that quite early in the piece I did say that he was just jerking your collective chains and pushing the right buttons - and by responding you were only fueling his alter ego and of course EACH AND EVERY response was caustic and vitrolic - no points were ever answered and it is my belief they never would.

And then along came chainsmoker, who has put forward an interesting proposition, that perhaps we are not seeing past the smoke and mirrors. As a matter of point, I have come across many Indonesians, some have been very good and helpful, while some have been as useless as a folicle on a fundamental oriface - but in the latter catagory, their command of English was nowhere near the quality of this gutter tripe.

Ignorance in this instance would be bliss and if the fire is deprived of oxygen, then it soon dies out - and I am sure all will agree that debate without quality is worthless.

I am certain that now my meanderings are like the chooks coming home to roost...

@Kekkendika:

Listen to dee's advice, yobbo:

"Didnt you ever learn that resorting to personal abuse denotes a loser, in any debate?"

Such immaturity, after losing a debate, you need to launch personal abuse as way to cover-up your loss of face. Bad boy...

200 YEARS IS ENOUGH! RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES! WHITES GO HOME!

@Dianne:

Your treatment of indigenous Australians is horrible and extremely racist and you know it. That is why Australians are completely panicky when someone disclose this skeleton in your closet. I know you want to cover-up and deny the white theft of Aboriginal land and your systematic destruction of Aboriginal people and culture. I'm telling you such denial is useless. We Indonesians know very well what you did to your indigenous people, we are not so foolish as to put trust to Australians, descendents of criminal thieves and genocidaires.

Remember, the truth will always come out!

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES!

PTBI...hati hati lah:) I might start to 'dig' and find out which people were dispossessed in YOUR area, because it is most rare to find an existing people ANYwhere who have not been driven out or haved riven out others.

You are still on a 'my daddy can kick your daddy's butt' thing.. and you realllllly seem to be like about 14.. a bright and well informed 14 admittedly, but still.... u know ? Janganlah bersifat sombong.

Most Aussies will agree that this land was 'taken'. We ourselves are victims of that same history. I don't think too many white Australians have a sense of pride about the situation or condition of our indigenous Aussies. But there are many indgenous people in the world. Including in Malaysia and they are NOT the Malays or Chinese, they are the Sengoi. I'm sure I can find equivalents in Indonesia.

On the topic.. it is difficult at times to walk the fine line of keeping good relations with a country which is doing things against its own people. For me, if they stopped the transmigration and obvious confiscation or forced acquisition of land for those migrants, things would be good for West Papua. Perhaps you can enlighten us on just how the vast numbers of transmigrants are obtaining land ?

Do you disagree that large numbers of transmigrants will change the cultural and political situation in West Papua ? When it comes time to vote, will they vote for a person who looks after their interests or the interests of the indigenous ?

PTBI

Once again, you have ignored a straight question that I asked of you.

.
You are exhibiting the most blatant duplicity in being so vehemently against white Australians for displacing aboriginal Australians, when you are not against Indonesians displacing the very culturally and racially different West Papuans, or at least not occupying their land without their permission or not retreating at the first sign of conflict.

Return West Papua to the Papuans.

@BOAZ_David:

I know people like you, a religious fanatic. The only problem you have with transmigration is that many of them are not Christians. What you want is for these transmigrants to be forcibly converted to Christianity before moving to Papua, like mediaeval Inquisitions.

Sorry to say it seems your seminary never teach you something called "religious freedom". Let people follow whatever religion they want. Or is this idea too incomprehensible for you?

Maaf saja, but you can put your religious hate up your ...

We Indonesians couldn't care less about what Australians think, we'll live wherever part of our country we want to live.

@Ludwig:

LOL, West Papuans have many cultural, racial, and religious similarities with other Indonesians. Meanwhile, whites have no connection whatsoever with the Aborigines.

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW !

Indonesians should ponder the oppression of religious minorities by the 85% Islamic majority.

* In 2005, 3 churches in Bekasi, West Java closed down by the Mayor and all congregants banned from worshipping in their church and their homes. 300 Islamic militants reportedly conducted their own 'service' to prevent Christians from worshipping.

* 3 Indonesian woman serving a 3 year prison sentence after their conviction of 'attempting to coerce children to change their religion' under the Indonesian 'Child Protection Act'. Their 'crime'? Running a Christian Sunday school.

* 5 dozen bombs found in Poso during a raid on Islamic extremists; the al-Queda-linked terrorist group murdered 12 Christians. 2 bombs were detonated in the marketplace of Tentena (a Christian town)- 22 people were killed and 40 wounded.

* During the ICC (International Christian Concern) visit, the team went to several refugee camps where Christians have fled from villages throughout Ambon and other Malukan islands following Islamic attacks. They heard horrific testimonies concerning the brutal murder of loved ones, forced conversions, and the circumcision of men, women and children without any form of medication.

* A couple with 5 small children forcibly taken to a mosque and each member of the family circumcised with either a razor blade or a dull knife, including their youngest, a 6-year-old.

* An 11-year-old boy's parents killed by the jihadi scum and hacked to pieces with swords. He fled to the forest where he lived on wild plants for 2 weeks.

* Witness Anus Kueso confirmed stories of forced conversion, forced circumcision, orders to abandon Christianity in exchange for the teachings of the koran and to continue in the Islamic faith or otherwise die as an 'apostate'. His village was attacked in February and another 3,000 jihadi scum arrived by sea. The islanders tried to defend themselves but..

Space prohibits me from continuing.

The utter laughable audacity of any Indonesian labelling others as Nazis etc. when this disgrace is happening in Indonesia would be funny if it were not so tragic for the people involved.

STOP PERSECUTING NON-MUSLIMS NOW!

@dee:

What you mentioned were conflicts between religions in Ambon and Poso which happened due to the power-vacuum after the fall of Suharto and advent of democracy. These conflicts have been ended thanks to the peace-making efforts of the current-VP Jusuf Kalla in the Malino Peace Agreement I in 2001 (for Poso) and II in 2002 (for Ambon). Indeed, these conflicts are the price of democracy, it remains to be seen whether the fruits of democracy is worthy of its costs.

Meanwhile, Australia who claims to be democracy, must learn to treat its Aborigines with respect!

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES!

PTBI,

“West Papuans have many cultural, racial, and religious similarities with other Indonesians. Meanwhile, whites have no connection whatsoever with the Aborigines”.

What a ridiculous excuse for and answer!

They do not have cultural, racial or religious similarities with Indonesians. Before contact, they were as different as PNG people were from Australians or Indonesians, or Aborigines were from white Australians. Any cultural or religious influences and thus similarities post-contact cannot be included. Besides, if there were some similarities, so what?

The West Papuans are being displaced by Indonesians. They don’t want them there. They want their independence from them. This is exactly the same principle that you so vehemently criticise Australia over regarding Aborigines, and over which you say; “Return Australia to Aborigines now”. Of course you failed to comment on this point, because you couldn’t have… without conceding that you are indeed being totally duplicitous.

And for the third time you have ignored a direct question: Is it your intention to stir up strife on this forum, which will filter into other areas and increase polarisation and conflict between our countries?

BOONG.... BOOONG .....BOOOONG ........BOOOOOOOOOONG!

That is the sound of an empty drum being struck and more than likely will be the only sane response you will receive.

I completely and abysmally fail to comprehend why you even continue trying to argue any points .......... unless of course following chainsmokers post, which I have taken the liberty of pasting below, you have an agenda of your own perhaps?

"If I was a highly articulate person who, for some perverse reason, wanted to stir up anti-Indonesian sentiment in Australia, I would find a popular Australian website with a comments forum.

Next, I would give myself some slightly provocative and possibly misleading tag (similar to chainsmoker-do you assume cigarettes or trout?).

Then I would set about using a mixture of facts, fantasy and probably a bit of name-calling to get people to really dislike me. I would probably enjoy watching the results of my posts.

If I was a real whiz with language nobody would notice when I slip out of character from time to time"

......... BUT then again perhaps he is the only other one to see through the smoke and mirrors, while you bleat rant and rave about no propper responses..........

Kekenidika

Lay your paranoia to rest and stop thinking about smoke and mirrors and hidden agendas.

Why do you have a problem with me exercising a sane and logical approach, or continuing to respond at all?

As far as I’m concerned it is working well. Some significant points have been revealed about the nature of this PTBI character

Ludwig

You stated "Some significant points have been revealed about the nature of this PTBI character"

Well if you have figured him out and clearly PTBI is merely trolling, I'm with Kekenidika, why do you continue to bother?

You have some excellent points to make regarding this thread and I really would prefer to read them rather than this pointless rant with PTBI. Everytime you respond to him, he has succeeded. Ignore this poor excuse for an Indonesian.

Ludwig - I have no problem with any of your posts, all of which are sound and have logic - however that could never be said of the persona you are attempting to draw out, because from where I see it, the only responses to date, have been lies, perversions of arguments and personal invective directed at individual posters which in my opinion, being the sole purpose to create an alienation between posters (and itself) - and it certainly has done that!

As chainsmoker wrote so perceptively and I would have thought that even you would have noted, was that the tone and manner that has been shown to date is one of deceptive, in and out of character, a persona with a modicum of education, (but not one of intelligence) one of animal rat cunning - but a definite agenda to ferment far worse xenophobia than what already exists now and as for you revealing which and whatever significant (sic) points about his nature are a moot point - as far as I am able to ascertain in my own right, he is far too smart by half for his own good and deserves only to be talked about - not too...

If you wish to continue attempting to draw it into any sane and logical discussion, that is your right and not for me to dispute, however for myself, I prefer intelligent discourse rather than listening to a lengthy diatribe which seems like a waste of time and as for the drivel being issued forth, my child has a far more accurate command of intelligence than has been shown of late.

Ludwig

I think what Kekenidika means is what I posted above except more verbal.

Back to the big question "Should we allow Indonesia a veto over our refugee policy?"

Answer: Never, Australia is a sovereign nation.

0:-)

INDONESIA: GOVERNMENT WANTS NON-MUSLIMS TRIED BY ACHEH ISLAMIC COURT
Banda Aceh, 26 April (AKI/Jakarta Post) -

The Indonesian government has insisted that Muslims and non-Muslims alike in Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam district of Muslim-devout Aceh province should be tried by a planned Islamic Court. Non-Muslims accused of committing crimes such as theft and adultery, would be tried under the Sharia inspired bylaws, state secretary Yusril Ihza Mahendra told the special committee deliberating a crucial bill on Aceh's future administration.

Mahendra, responding to the proposals of several legislators who wanted non-Muslims to be given the freedom to choose under which law they would be tried, said it would only create legal uncertainty.

"Should such freedom be given, non-Muslims will certainly choose to be tried under the Criminal Code, because it carries more lenient punishment," Yusril told the hearing, held to discuss the authority of the planned Islamic Court, also known as Mahkamah Sharia.

Yusril said that in the case of adultery, non-Muslims who committed adultery with Muslims would undoubtedly opt for trial by Indonesia's penal code, because it was more lenient than stoning or other forms of corporal punishment stipulated under Islamic Law.

A number of factions, such as the Christian-based Prosperous Peace Party (PDS) and the Buddhist inspired Indonesian Democratic Party of Struggle (PDI-P), have proposed that non-Muslims be given the freedom to choose under which law they would be tried for ordinary crimes.

Yusril said later in the hearing that non-Muslims could be exempted for trial by the Islamic Court only in cases related to domestic matters, such as distribution of wealth as well as business and monetary issues.

He added details about the Islamic Court would await the drawing up of more bylaws. "It is these that will decide who will be tried under which law," Yusril said. ......

Lawmaker Permadi of the PDI-P faction, who is also a member of the special committee, alleged the simmering down of the debates was connected to payments worth 181,550 dollars made to committee members by the interior ministry.

INDONESIA, STOP PERSECUTING NON-MUSLIMS NOW!

Scout

Some points ain’t all points. There are a couple other key points to determine. Sure he’s ‘trolling’. Either that or he’s an imbecile, or both.

But I hold the view that for as long as you’re advancing the discussion in some manner, or finding out more about your adversary, it is worth continuing.

What I have determined with the last few posts is that he has scant little foundation for his views and has not realised just how totally contradictory he is being with his extremism on Australian displacement of Aboriginal culture and occupation, and the promotion of Indonesian occupation and control in Papua. You might say that you knew that already. Well now it has been confirmed.

I am giving him all the chance in the world to elaborate on his views and to justify some of his statements. I would be most interested to hear a fuller account of these aspects, but he just can’t provide any substance to them.

If you think he is succeeding by making himself out to be grossly polarised, irrationally hateful and unable to justify his statements, well I’m sorry but I don’t get it.

I think that there is a very real chance that he is learning a lot from this experience. He’s not going to admit it. But hopefully he will reincarnate under a different pseudonym and partake in a much more rational debate as a result.

"Should we allow Indonesia a veto over our refugee policy?"

No, but they should be allowed to make whatever comments they feel are necessary and to diplomatically attempt to sway Australian policy if they so desire. And vice versa. Australia and Indonesia are sovereign nations that wish to have a friendly bilateral relationship. This means that they need to talk, express concerns and work together to find common ground or compromises.

We cannot put up a barrier to Indonesia’s concerns. That would surely result in a worsening of relations and very likely moves by Indonesia away from what Australia desires.

@ludwig:

LOL, Papuans have many things in common with other Indonesians. Remember, Indonesia has lots of Melanesians living in Maluku and East Nusatenggara provinces. Indeed, Indonesia has the largest Melanesian population in the world. Indeed, most of today's West Irian Jaya province was controlled by the sultan of Ternate since the 1600s. Indonesia has extremely strong historical right on West Papua.

Meanwhile, your own High Court judged white occupation of Australia is completely illegal (Mabo Decision) since the agreement of Aborigines was never sought, "terra nullius" concept. Indonesian control over West Papua is perfectly legal and has strong historical background, while white rule over Australia is pure illegal landgrab.

So, follow what your High Court said, RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES!

@Kekendika&Scout:

Jeez, calm down folks, who left open the door of the looney house?

Kekenidica

I agree that Chainsmoker’s analysis just might be right and I acknowledged as much in my post of 22 April.

When I feel that the cause is lost, I will stop trying to communicate with him/her.

.
PTBI

As I said recently, so what if there are some similarities? That is not the point.

Can you tell me that West Papuans ever wanted mass transmigration of Javanese? Can you tell me that they are not being forced to accommodate Indonesians or being forced into a different way of life, or that they want non-Papuan Indonesians in their land or that they do not want independence?

What is so different to Australia’s history in this regard?

I don’t like the history of Aboriginal displacement one little bit, and I was pleased with the finding of the Mabo case. But when it all took place it was thought of as legal, and no less so than the Indonesian legal justification for overtaking and displacing the Papuans.

What is happening in West Papua is not one little bit less unfortunate than what happened in Australia.

If you, and Indonesians in general, are really so appalled by what happened in Australia, then how on earth can you condone the Papuan ‘invasion’. Why didn’t you learn from the Australian experience and restrain yourselves?

@ludwig:

LOL, there is completely no similarity between Indonesia and Australia. The Papuans welcomed transmigrants as the developer of Papuan economy, which provides employment and made that province into the rice-bowl of Eastern Indonesia. Papuans were never "displaced", as transmigrants were always settled in vacant land (Papua having very low population-density), and if any native land was needed, they were more than fairly compensated as negotiated with their tribal leaders. Meanwhile, by law Papuans are guaranteed place as political leaders elected directly by Papuan people. That is why overwhelming number of Papuans are happy of being part of Indonesia, as indicated by the extremely high participation rate in Indonesian national and local elections. Separatists formed only tiny proportion of population, those barbaric fringe infected by toxic ethnic-hatred as your minister Vanstone described.

The white occupation of Australia, on the other hand, is just illegal landgrab in which the Aborigines were never consulted. Not only that, whites committed physical and cultural genocide on Aborigines with intention of annihilating Aborigines as a people. 200 years is too late to make amends, Australia must be returned to Aborigines. If you intend to stay in Australia, you must ask for permission from Aborigines and pay them compensation for the land you live on!

It’s so comforting to know that West Papuans are 'happy of being part of Indonesia’. However, according to recently declassified US documents, this 'happiness' is highly questionable.

From 1949 until 1961 the Indonesian government sought to "recover" WNG, arguing that the territory rightfully belonged with Indonesia. In other words, the decolonised Indonesians were eager to colonise others.

In 1961, after repeated and unsuccessful attempts to secure its goals through the UN, President Sukarno declared a military mobilisation and threatened to invade WNG and annex it by force. The Kennedy administration (fearing that U.S. opposition might push the country toward Communism) sponsored talks between the Netherlands and Indonesia. Negotiations took place during ongoing Indonesian military incursions into WNG and the threat of an Indonesian invasion. The U.S.-sponsored talks resulted in the New York Agreement, which awarded Indonesia control of WNG after a brief 'transitional' period overseen by the UN. This agreement obligated Jakarta to conduct an election on self-determination with UN assistance no later than 1969. Once in control, however, Indonesia quickly moved to repress political dissent by groups demanding outright independence for the territory.

The Johnson and Nixon administrations were reluctant to challenge Indonesian control over WNG, especially after the regime of General Suharto took over in 1966 after an attempted coup which led to the slaughter of an estimated 500,000 alleged Communists.

From July to August 1969, U.N. officials conducted the so-called "Act of Free Choice." Under Article 18 of the New York Agreement, all adult Papuans had the right to participate in an act of self-determination to be carried out in accordance with international practice. Instead, Indonesian authorities selected 1022 West Papuans to vote publicly and unanimously in favor of integration with Indonesia. Despite significant evidence that Indonesia had failed to meet its international obligations, in 1969 the UN "took note" of the "Act of Free Choice" and its results, thereby lending its support to Indonesia's annexation.

‘Act of Free Choice’ – please!

I agree for once with PTBI – ‘there is completely no similarity between Indonesia and Australia’. And thank God for that!

@dee:

Indeed Indonesia and Australia is different; Indonesia is much more decent and humane in treating its people as you indicated, unlike the racist genocidal Australian whites!

"Indonesia is much more decent and humane in treating its people as you indicated .."

Except for those occasions when the govt. sees fit to murder people for their alleged political beliefs - ie, the estimated 500,000 alleged Communists. Or is it ok to kill alleged Commies?

Sorry, you dont get off the hook that easily. You have stated time and time again that all Australians are personally responsible for the mistreatment of aboriginals - this is called The Theory of Collective Guilt. If you believe in this theory, then you, and every other Indonesian is personally responsible for the death of every 'alleged' Communist. Have the families been finacially compensated? Has the Indonesian govt. said 'sorry'?

Eliezer Bonay, who spent nearly two years in detention after his dismissal as Indonesia's first governor of West Papua, estimated in 1981 that 30,000 West Papuans were killed in the 6 years leading up to the 'Act of Free Choice' in August 1969.

But he must be a liar and a barbarian, huh? Otherwise, the compassionate Indonesian govt. would have surely investigated these claims and paid compensation.

Dee

Indonesian female emancipationist Raden Ajeng Kartini died 102 years ago and rates a national celebration, but has anything really changed?

To the average hail-and-farewell visitor who just notes dress and public behavior, females seem as free as in the West. But try looking deeper.

A good place to start is newspaper WANTED columns for sales and administration. The requirements are specific: Good command of English and maybe Mandarin, a degree from a top university and experience.

Plus something extra not seen in Western countries where discrimination is illegal: Must be under 25 and attractive. Photo required.

So however incandescent your intellect and diligent your record, if you're blemished by acne or past the quarter century don't bother applying.

The visible workforce in the flash offices is overwhelmingly female and young. Older women survive only in the government or in backroom jobs. Being unmarried and over 30 is a single-life sentence; if unemployed, prospects are minimal.

The demand for secretarial jobs is huge; some of the best and brightest from prestigious tertiary institutions are rotting behind reception desks and customer service counters across the archipelago.

They may be polymaths outside but in the workplace their greatest challenge is serving tea without spilling. Their role is decorative and subservient.
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4410

Must be why the Orang-gille is over here - could not even find a second hand woman over there stupid enough to put up with him - and is surviving on second rate pity from the greenies over here who know no better.....

Care to follow?
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4410#40368

@dee:

LOL, is it OK for communists to murder thousands of nationalists and religionists (Islamic and Christian clerics) like what the Indonesian communists did?

Is it OK for whites to murder Aborigines and wiped out their culture just because the greedy whites want to steal Aboriginal land?

@Kekkendika:

LOL, Indonesia has had one female president and one quarter of our national cabinet is female. How many Australian female PMs have you had? How many female state premiers have you had?

Remember, do not mistake freedom to have sex or to strip as "female emancipation".

PTBI - I’m sure that every one of the alleged Communists was guilty of murder and that every one had a fair trial under Indonesian law before being killed? And of course you know for a fact that every person killed was (1)a Communist, and/or (2)a murderer of ‘nationalists and religionists’? Has Indonesia compensated the families of the alleged Communists in any way? That’s right, I forgot, they were all guilty …

The moral of the story is that people in glass houses (in this case, Indonesia) shouldn’t throw stones. It reeks of hypocrisy.

The Police Mobile Brigade (Brigade Mobil, Brimob) in Wasior Sub-district, Manokwari District, Papua Province (formerly known as Irian Jaya) from April to October 2001 was one of the largest operations by the Indonesian security forces seen in Papua. Local human rights organizations estimate that over 140 people were detained, tortured or otherwise ill-treated during the course of the operation. One person died in custody as a result of torture; at least 7 people are believed to have been extrajudicially executed; 27 people were sentenced to terms of imprisonment after unfair trials. Hundreds of people from villages in the area were internally displaced as a result of the operation and dozens of houses destroyed. Have these people been compensated? Has the Indonesian govt. said ‘sorry’?

“How many Australian female PMs have you had ..”
Does this matter?

“ do not mistake freedom to have sex or to strip as "female emancipation".’

Nobody I know confuses the freedom to strip/have sex with ‘female emancipation’ (quaint phrase). You are showing your own ignorance and confusion in this area, yet you presume to lecture others. The point is that women have the right to choose – if they wish to take the low-rent road, they have the legal right to do so. This is called 'freedom'.

Dee - More Indonesian freedoms

Women’s rights activists say mobs used rape as a "weapon of terror" in May 1998, attacking and raping 168 women and girls, from Indonesia's Chinese minority. Twenty women died, some in homes set afire; one of the victims was only 9 years old. Human rights groups and other groups filed a class action lawsuit against the government and security forces accusing them of failing to control the violence. Lawyer Ester Jusuf of the Jakarta Legal Aid Institute said the groups are demanding $3.7 billion in compensation for victims of the rioting. The suit was filed against General Wiranto, the defense minister and armed forces commander, as well as several police chiefs. ("Activists protest Indonesia military," Associated Press, 17 July 1998)

168 women were raped during riots in May following the resignation of President Suharto. Of this number, 20 died during or after the assaults. Human Rights investigators presumed many other women had either fled the city or were too traumatized to report their rapes. Some had been silenced by the threats or by rumors of further attacks and rapes. The investigators themselves have been threatened. Other women have committed suicide, saying they had heard reports of additional rapes and sexual assaults after the riots. Attacks were directed against the Ethnic-Chinese, who have often been made scapegoats in times of conflict or hardship. The human rights workers said their investigation reinforced their belief that the rapes, some involving girls as young as nine years old, had been organized and coordinated in the same way as the looting and arson. "Rape crisis" Straits Times, 21 July 1998)

The gang rape of ethnic-Chinese women in Indonesia during the May 1998 riots should be seen as a war crime, say Singapore women's groups. The groups have sent a letter to the Indonesian ambassador and are calling for discussion of the matter by ASEAN leaders. Regional governments seek justice, as victims no longer live in a safe environment. Indonesian women have been talking openly about the rapes and want justice. ("Gang rapes in Indonesia," Straits Times Interactive, 27 July 1998)

Kekenidika - The rape of the Chinese women reminds me of the Japanese attitude to the WWII Korean 'comfort women'. I suppose the Indonesian government has never acknowledged the rapes, compensated the victims and apologized? Didn’t think so. This mistreatment seems to be the result of the position of women in much of Asia – decorative appendages (like the Japanese ‘office ladies’ who were there to make tea and do the photocopying). Asian governments do not comprehend that half the national intelligence is wasted by confining women to trivial lives; and since Asian countries do not have laws to guarantee that females get the same opportunities as males, pretty young girls are exploited (while they are still young and pretty). The fact that an employer can legally request a photograph of a woman before hiring her negates all the female politicians in Asia.

At first glance, South Asia (Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, the Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka) looks good for women in politics. Indira Gandhi became PM of India in the 1960s; Benazir Bhutto became leader of Pakistan; two Bangladeshi women, Sheikh Hasina Wazed and Khaleda Zia, have alternated as government leaders for more than a decade; the president of Sri Lanka, Chandrika Kumaratunga, is a woman whose mother had been PM several times; Gloria Arroyo in the Philippines and Megawati Sukarnoputri in Indonesia - but not one of those women got into politics on her own merit. All were the daughters or widows of national leaders who were assassinated or executed or who died without male political heirs. And not one of them has made a high priority of improving the lives and status of women in the country she governs.

Australian women have not shown a huge interest in entering politics, but I guess Australia will one day have a female PM – when that time comes she will be voted into office. She will not be handed the post on a silver platter because of her male family connections.

PTBI

The situation in West Papua is essentially the same as it was in Australia in the 19th century.

Aborigines were displaced, gently and only to a limited extent at first. The Europeans were not too worried about them being out there beyond the settlements and later beyond the expanded farming country. But they were concerned about conflicts that arose when Aborigines attacked the invaders or stole their produce. Of course reprisals on them were much more severe than those attacks.

Some were killed in a deliberate and cold-blooded manner, but most died of diseases that they had no immunity to.

Especially in the north, large areas of land were set aside for Aboriginal use, albeit the poorer lands. However, Aborigines had successfully lived on these lands and could have continued to do so if they hadn’t been subjected to and seduced by white man’s food, tools… and alcohol.

Many Aboriginal settlements are very sad places, but it was never the intention of whites to make them such. Just the opposite.

The story is complex. But it is nothing like your assertion of “the racist genocidal Australian whites!”

I don’t resile from the fact that there were really horrible elements to the treatment of Aborigines by Europeans, but it was not a simple case of invade and annihilate.

Again, I cannot see that in essence it is much different to the West Papuan situation.

Dee –Remember not to mistake freedom to have sex or to strip as "female emancipation". Over in Indonesia women are expected to strip and screw – RIGHT?

The rape of ethnic-Chinese women in the May 1998 riots in Indonesia was a result of the social gap said President B.J. Habibie. He said he knew of Chinese Indonesians who were not attacked because they contributed to the community and that the social gap between the Chinese minority and other Indonesians was caused by Dutch colonizers. ("Attacks on Chinese not planned," Straits Times, 31 July 1998)

Straits Times reports that the 1997 economic crisis has caused millions of children to take to the worst of forms of child labor, prostitution. No longer limited to special red-light districts, the prostitution network has penetrated mainstream Indonesian society. Further, it has spilled beyond national borders, with thousands of Indonesian children exported as sex commodities. – YaleGlobal

Indonesia's Shameful Export
Poverty, ignorance and unenforced laws fuel an industry that has sold 70,000 children into prostitution overseas. It is not something any government likes to make public, but the figures say it all: Indonesia is one of the world's largest exporters of sex workers, mainly children.

The Flesh Trade
The International Labor Organization (ILO) says thousands of children in Java have been forced into prostitution by their parents and others. The ILO said its researchers found more than 21,000 prostituted children, some as young as 15, during a study of Jakarta and all Javanese provinces except Banten.
Real Lives - Fighting Sexual Exploitation And Trafficking In Indonesia
Yani was 15 when her boyfriend lured her away from home with false promises of a lucrative job and a chance to continue her education. "My pimp stopped giving me money and just supplied me with drugs," says Dewi.

Prevalence, Abuse & Exploitation of Street Children in the Republic of Indonesia
http://www.insideindonesia.org/edit59/child.htm

http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Indonesia.htm

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=4043

http://www.streetchildren.org.uk/reports/Indonesia%20Child.doc

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54b/081.html

BUT HERE AMONGST ALL THE CORRUPTION
http://www.expat.or.id/givingback/griyaasih.html

@dee:

You are trying to avoid answering my question:

>Is it OK for communists to kill nationalist-religionist Indonesians just because they have different ideology? Is it OK for Indonesian communist volunteers to infiltrate into Malaysia and kill hundreds of British, Australian, and Commonwealth soldiers during Confrontation?

>Is it OK for whites to wipe out Aborigines and destroy their culture just because whites want their land?

BTW, yes, most PKI leadership and members were tried by Indonesian courts, where they made well-publicised defence pleas full of anti-military rhetotic, before being sentenced to death or to jail, or released. Most of the uncontrolled violence were done by nationalist and religious mobs hyped with anti-communist hysteria. The military did much to stop excessive violence, hence saving the lives of many communists from certain death in the hands of the mob.

And it is ridicilous to say the non-exitence of any female PM in Australia as "unimportant". More hilarious is your excuse that Australian females are "not interested" to become PM. That's just unconvincing to say the least. Are Australian females only interested in enhancing their boobs, butt, and blonde-hair?

@Ludwig:

LOL, situation of Papuans are much better than Aborigines. Papuans always receive compensation for any land taken (which are not much since most of Papua is uninhabited areas), they have MRP to arbitrage their tribal interests, and all regional leaders MUST be native Papuans by law.

On the other hand, how many Aboriginal PMs or state premiers have Australia had? How many Aboriginal federal and state ministers have Australia had? How much of Australian land is owned by Aborigines?

PTBI - 'Is it OK ... to kill nationalist-religionist Indonesians'. I regarded this question as too idiotic to answer, but since you insist on stating the obvious:

NO, it is not ok to kill people because of their beliefs.

This was my original point. I cant recall the last time an Australian mob attacked Communists and murdered them. I can't recall the last time ethnic women were gang raped by Australian men either. Indonesians have done both, so criticising Australia is both pointless and irrelevant. Australia is not under observation for human rights abuses, as Indonesia is, so perhaps you should stop embarrassing yourself.

'Is it OK for whites to wipe out Aborigines ...' - Another idiotic question. Who ever said it was ok?

“How many Aboriginal PMs or state premiers have Australia had?”- A few politicians but since aboriginals are less than 1% of the population, so what? Are you suggesting that we elevate aboriginals on a racial basis to positions they have not earned or been elected to? BTW, has Indonesia had an East Timorese PM? Or a PM from WNG? Why not?

“ How much of Australian land .. owned by Aborigines?” - I have already given you facts and figures. I am not repeating the information.

' ..it is ridicilous to say the non-exitence of any female PM in Australia as "unimportant"'.

Why it is so important? Are you suggesting that we hand the position to the unelected daughter of some VIP? Isnt that how Megawati became leader? A female PM does not make a country progressive, successful, democratic or free of human abuses.

'Are Australian females only interested in enhancing their boobs, butt, and blonde-hair?' – Wishful thinking on your part I’m afraid. You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with blonde hair, boobs etc. and you have about as much knowledge of Australian women as you have about anything else Australian – ie, zero.

As for avoiding questions - you have not answered one direct question anyone has put to you. Perhaps you should.

@Kekendika:

LOL, calm down looney. Indeed there is prostitution in Indonesia like in any other country in the world, which is caused mainly by poverty. But Indonesia is nowhere near the massive prostitution industry of our smaller neighbours Thailand and Philippines, the favourite sex-tourism destination for Australian perverts. As I remember, Australia legalise prostitution and one brothel even sell shares in Australian stock exchange. Strip clubs proliferate in every Australian city/town. Can I say this Australian promotion of prostitution meant Australians "expect their women to strip and shag"?

About alleged Chinese "rapes", those are just untrue wild rumours with no correlation with reality. There have been many investigations by Taiwanese and Hongkong groups, but they completely failed to find a single verifiable rape case. Ethnic-Chinese women in Indonesia has nothing to worry. In fact, Indonesia has the largest overseas Chinese population in the world (12 million people).

Here's a link to the happy lifestyle of beautiful Indonesian models, many of whom have degrees of Chinese blood in them:
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8772
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=72562

PTBI

Even if the situation in West Papua is really different, we have to ask; is it anywhere near good enough?

The displacement of Aborigines was terrible and disgusting. I think I come closer to agreeing with you than anyone else on this forum, although as I said last time it was nowhere near the deliberate genocide that you make it out to be.

But this history does not mean that current Australians forego the right to be very concerned about what is happening in West Papua and to express it as fully as they see fit. There have afterall been many genuine efforts to improve the quality of life for Aborigines in recent decades, albeit with muted success.

The displacement of Aboriginal culture was in line with practices in North and South America and various other places, in a long-gone era. It was pretty much a normal part of humanity and had been for aeons.

But we would like to think that times have changed and that humanity has progressed from that sort of barbarism. Thus, any sort of displacement of one people by another in this age is rightly thought of as intolerable, no matter how much ‘better’ it might be managed than it was in the 19th century.

I guess what we really need to know is just how willing the Papuans were to accept Javanese transmigrants, just how accepting of the situation they were after it had been happening for a few years with all the sorts of problems that go along with such a scheme, just how much the Papuans are really benefiting, whether these benefits are confined to a few while the rest get nothing or get disadvantaged, just what it really means for Papuans to have their own regional leaders under a government that can presumably override their desires very easily, just what does compensation for land taken really means? …. and so on.

One has got to ask; if things are so good, why is there an apparently vigorous independence movement there?

Dee,

Regardless of the propaganda of the pimp we have denying it - Surbaya, with tens of thousands of prostitutes, is the largest sex industry center in South East Asia, consisting of hectares and hectares of modest houses (read hovels) - "streets full of human aquariums". It is also a magnet for the divorced and dispossessed women of the strict Islamic villages and served through a black market network of pimps like our Orangotang

There are 12,000 to 31,000 people currently dying from AIDS every year in Indonesia, and more will be infected by 2000. Most women say they are in prostitution because they have been divorced and abandoned by men. Many divorcees are still young, having married in their teens and separated in their early 20s but I suppose they are just another disposable commodity for the Indonesian men – and has bred a plethora of women desperate to get from under Indonesian oppressive “manhood” (sic)

Jakarta (AsiaNews) – In some refugee camps in Aceh and North Sumatra provinces, aid and rescue workers are believed to discriminate against Sino-Indonesians, who are denied food and medicines, forced to dig graves, robbed and, in some cases, killed
http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=2270

Nike Labor Practices Criticized
In August, the U.S. government agreed to look at workers' rights in Indonesia before deciding whether to continue granting Indonesian products a special import status called
zero-tariff benefits. Losing the benefits would hurt Indonesian exporters.
http://www.hamline.edu/apakabar/basisdata/1992/10/17/0001.html

Slavery of children, but again it keeps them off the streets where they rob and waylaying innocent Indonesian pimps selling sex-slaves in the Indonesian paradise
Child Labour on Indonesian Fishing Platforms
The Indonesian NGO, KKSP Foundation and Anti-Slavery International have long been concerned about the use of children on hundreds of rickety fishing platforms, known locally as jermals, in the seas off the northeast coast of Sumatra. Apart from a supply boat that comes every two weeks, there is no contact with the shore. Each jermal is likely to have three or four children on it who haul in and mend the nets as well as boil, dry and sort the fish.
http://www.antislavery.org/archive/submission/submission2000-Jermals.htm

@dee:

"I cant recall the last time an Australian mob attacked Communists and murdered them. I can't recall the last time ethnic women were gang raped by Australian men either."

LOL, have commies killed Australians of different ideologies, have they tried to violently overthrow Australian govt. And remember, 28% of Australian women were sexually abused by older people during childhood. What perverts Australians are!
http://www.secasa.com.au/index.php/family/11/96

"Are you suggesting that we elevate aboriginals on a racial basis to positions they have not earned or been elected to? BTW, has Indonesia had an East Timorese PM? Or a PM from WNG?"

LOL, of course racist genocidal whites will never vote for Aboriginal politicians. And no, position of prime minister do not exist in Indonesia. We have had dozens of Papuan cabinet ministers, generals, and hundreds of Papuan national and regional parliamentarians.

"Are you suggesting that we hand the position to the unelected daughter of some VIP? Isnt that how Megawati became leader?"

LOL, what a moronic Asian-hater. Megawati and all female Asian leaders you mentioned got elected to power. Stupid white dummy, think you are better than us Asians, don't you? What a racist joke you are.

@ludwig:

LOL, none of your excuses can deny the fact that Indonesia is uber-better compared with the genocidal assault on Aborigines by whites.

If you truly despise your race's mistreatment of Aborigines and theft of Aboriginal land, then you will return stolen-land Australia to them and compensate them for all their pain.

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

@Kekendika:

LOL, why are scavenging from the biggest trash-bin in the world aka the internet? Good trash scavenger, but your stench is horrible..

PTBI - you have given unassailable proof of what a joke you *yourself* are by constantly resorting to juvenile ignorance and racial insults when you cant find a logical response.

Go away and grow up. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about - otherwise you wouldnt respond to everything with a stupid racist diatribe. FYI, there are several aboriginal and part-aboriginal politicians in Australia - the National President of the Labor Party is an Australian Aboriginal - and Australia actually has female politians plus a few female state premiers in the past- so perhaps you should do some research before you make more idiot comments.

"what a moronic Asian-hater". You are the obvious moron in this case. The observation that female leaders in Asia are the widows/daughters of dead/assassinated male leaders is a plain fact, whether or not they were elected. But of course anyone who states a fact you dont like must be an 'Asian -hater'. Another likely possibility is that you have no idea of the meaning of the concept 'succeeding on ones own merit'. Since Indonesia is high on the list of corrupt countries, that is the likeliest explanation for your sheer ignorance.

"Stupid white dummy, think you are better than us Asians, don't you? What a racist joke you are."

Let's study that comment in all its sheer childish stupidity and moronic ignorance. For the sake of the reputation of Indonesians - if you are in Australia, please go home. If you are in Indonesia, please stay there. The only 'racist' on this forum is you. Do you find it hard to walk with that huge chip on your shoulder? Or do you block it out by dreaming of blonde hair and boobs?

Well you just go on repeating the same old simpleton and extremist responses PTBI and making no attempt to advance the discussion.

That’s it for me. Good riddance

@dee:

LOL, resorting to infantile insults when you are trapped without exit.

You insults Asians by accusing the multitudes of female leaders we've had as "unelected". I've shown the reality that they are all elected to office. You are "pwned". If they were family of previous leaders, what is wrong with that? USA President Bush is the son of previous US president Bush Sr.

Again, you are racistly demeaning Asians to avoid facing the reality of treatment of women in Australia, that 28% of Australian women are sexually-abused when they're little girls.

@ludwig:

Not extremist, but realistic and humanistic :-D

Dee – a few more facts about Indonesian Girl Children who are not quite prostitutes yet – just beggars and street people – Please note of course that Australia does not need multi million packages to rectify the work of pimps and Orang-o-tangs who really should be concentrating their efforts to improve their own country, but are so mentally deficient, that their only response is to disparage more advanced countries – a bit like biting the extended hands of aid like mongrel dogs

“….. street children have become a common sight at most major intersections in Indonesia’s large cities. They sing and dance or strum on a battered guitar—and then make beelines for taxis or expensive cars to beg.
On 1 November 2000, the Asian Development Bank (ADB) launched its Japan Fund for Poverty Reduction with a US$1 million project in Indonesia to help young female street children, who are often victims of sexual abuse and child prostitution

A 1999 ADB survey of 12 Indonesian cities found that girls make up 20 percent of Indonesia’s estimated 170,000 street children—and that programs for street children have concentrated on boys.”
http://www.adb.org/Documents/Periodicals/ADB_Review/2001/vol33_1/street_girls.asp

If successful, the Yogyakarta pilot scheme will be replicated in other urban centers. It will:
establish counseling programs for female street children who are either at risk of, or who have experienced, sexual abuse;
evaluate different approaches to prevention and rehabilitation; and
develop culturally acceptable, cost-effective, and sustainable programs to help the government, NGOs, and social workers address the needs of nearly 34,000 female street children.
http://www.adb.org/Documents/News/2000/nr2000117.asp
New Approaches in Indonesia

Vitamin A deficiency, iodine deficiency disorders, and iron deficiency anemia are common problems in Indonesia. These micronutrient deficiencies contribute to disease, mortality, growth retardation, brain damage, and reduced cognitive and working capacity among children and adults. That puts a severe strain on education and health systems, lowers productivity, and raises levels of sustained poverty. In urban slum areas, the prevalence of underweight children is especially high, and anemia rates among young children remain alarmingly high.
ADB to Pilot Food Fortification Among Indonesia's Urban Poor
http://www.adb.org/Documents/News/2005/nr2005034.asp

Dee – again the complicity of the Indonesian Military bastardry in Aceh – so what hope have simple Melanesians in West Papua got?
In addition, Exxon Mobile Corp.'s operation in Aceh drew criticism this past week for allegedly violating human rights of villagers near major gas fields in the province. A U.S. District Judge, Louis Oberdorfer, granted a lawsuit by Washington-based advocacy group International Labor Rights Fund to sue the oil giant over the rape and torture of local Acehnese, allegedly perpetrated by Indonesian Military troops guarding the company's facilities.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/yesterdaydetail.asp?fileid=20060313.C01
Below are a few links the Orang-o-tang will not show you – I wonder why? BUT -you know - and I know
Indonesia

Police Violence and the Beginnings of Impunity in East Timor
http://hrw.org/reports/2006/easttimor0406/

Allow Independent Monitors Access to Area
Escalating violence in Papua’s provincial capital should be investigated by an independent commission, Human Rights Watch said today
Reports indicate that BRIMOB (Brigade Mobile, Indonesian riot police) officers used tear gas, and some eyewitnesses say that they saw the police open fire on the crowd of unarmed demonstrators. One of those wounded is a journalist from the Indonesian newspaper Tempo. Unverified reports indicate he was beaten by police officers while trying to film the demonstration. (different story from the Orangotang though)
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/03/17/indone13017.htm

Indonesia: U.S. Aid to Corrupt TNI Risks More Rights Abuses
The Indonesian military has long been responsible for grave abuses -- including extrajudicial executions, torture, and arbitrary detention -- in conflict areas such as Aceh and Papua, as well as a range of serious abuses across the country. But, military personnel of all ranks have largely been above the law.
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/03/14/indone12926.htm

Indonesia: Keep Pressure on Abusive Army
“Because President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono was elected democratically, many now wrongly believe that Indonesia’s military has been reformed,” said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “But it continues to be responsible for routine abuses, has failed to address past crimes and remains beyond effective civilian control.”
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/10/11/indone11859.htm

Need any more be said – I do not think so – but wait for the rebuff from the Orang gille

K. - Thanks for the interesting links - I fear you are wasting your time and brainpower if you are hoping that PTBI is amenable to reason and logic. The name 'Proud to be Indonesian' tells us all we need to know ie this person is not capable of rational thinking. I am grateful to be born in Australia for many reasons, but 'proud' of it?

One is 'proud' of something one achieves, how can anyone be proud of an accident of birth, something they had no say in? I am proud of the many achievements of Australians, I am proud that Australians have created such a wealthy and free country in 200 years, but 'proud' that I happened to be born here?

I mention this because it is so typical of the 'thinking' of this nasty little racist.

@Kekendika:

You and I know none of the links you copy-and-paste from the biggest trash-can in the world aka internet, can ever hide the reality of whites' theft of Aborginal land, genocide on Aborigines, destruction of Aboriginal culture, and your virulently racist "White Australia Policy". Neither can you deny the fact that 28% of Australian females are sexually abused as little children.

@dee:

LOL, none of your infantile personal attacks can diminish the truths I exposed. If you claim to be proud of Australia, you'll return this continent to the real Australians, the Aborigines. No morally-sound person can be proud of an imperialistic colony built over a land illegally and violently stolen from its rightful owners.

Dee – thanks, however I do not waste my time and brainpower in the hope of finding reason or logic with it and unlike Ludwig (and sometimes yourself) I realized quite early in the peace that it was naught but an empty drum – a poor version of Eliza with a gutter trip mind – but them’s the breaks ….. right?

The links I provided are there for all to see many are from Indonesian sources , detailing their own problems and their own elitist racist mindset inability for rational thought, but then again that is an Indonesian problem and of course the persona is following a well known tactic of the blustering bully, by ignoring truth and spewing forth more alternative lies.

This only becomes our problem when you allow it by responding to the canker that has invaded our democratic space. Unfortunately, in the meantime ordinary innocent Indonesians will suffer by the theft of the riches by the Javanese bastard bandits, their so called leaders – poor imitations of Fagin treating the starving dredges of humanity to bitter rhetoric rather than truth

Again as I said quite early in the piece, that thing is responding to any sane and logical posts by abuse and calumny and as an extension, I wondered why normal people actually try and befriend a festering rabid personality and I would only consider short discussions about it, rather than talking to it. I do believe that Chainsmoker also saw through it’s façade and of course I heartily agree with his summation.

In my travels over the years, I have met and socialized with many Indonesians and like any other people most of them have been open and friendly – some have been killers and murderers in their invading forces – and then you strike the lower strata like this thing here who is totally incapable of any original thought, but spews forth venom and vitriol, creating uncertainty and divisions.

How you deal with things like this is turn your back, ignore the lies, barbs and incontinent inconsistencies, let the Mimosa invisa wither and die.

Yes Kekenidika, I gave PTBI all the chance in the world to provide some depth behind the very strong statements and to justify his arguments. He proved to be extremist without being able to justify it, and unable to offer detail or any semblance of level-headedness.

You and Chainsmoker have been proven right.

And Scout

West Papua is a former Dutch colony. In 1949, when Indonesia gained its independence, the Dutch retained control of West Papua. During the next decade, West Papua prepared for its own independence, supported by most Australians.

But the process was interrupted when Indonesia, using Russian military equipment, launched a small-scale invasion of West Papua. The United States, worried that Indonesia might have been slipping towards Communism, arranged for a UN-brokered agreement between Dutch and Indonesian governments, which handed West Papua to Indonesia. The UN's condition was that there was to be a UN-supervised referendum, called the "Act of Free Choice."

Or, if you're West Papuan, you might refer to it as the "Act of No Choice."

The vote occurred in 1969 and the "No Choice" name is well deserved.

What happened was that less than one per cent of the population - 1022 tribal elders - were rounded up, and they were basically told to vote for Indonesia or they would have their tongues cut out. Obviously then the vote was unanimous for West Papua remaining with Indonesia. In the years since Indonesia's occupation of West Papua, there are estimates that around 100,000 people have died due to human rights abuses.

It's time for Australia and Australians to get involved, just as we did in East Timor. West Papua's an issue whose time has come. It's the type of situation where people initially might not know too much about it. Some people don't even realise that it's just over 100 kilometres from Australia's shores.

When people do hear about what's happening there, they're often quite shocked that this is something that's going on right on our doorstep. This is an issue that has the potential to ignite huge sectors of the populations to stand up for West Papuans, just as Australians did for the East Timorese.

The Javanese invaders are raping and polluting the environment and remember the biblical saying .......

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

"He [PTBI] proved to be extremist without being able to justify it, and unable to offer detail or any semblance of level-headedness."

I agree with everything you say except the description 'extremist'. 'Extremist' implies a thought process (no matter how warped) which is simply not present in the racist ravings of PTBI. I would prefer the description 'nasty little racist bigot with a huge chip on his shoulder'.

His lack of knowledge of Australia and Australians is abysmal in its sheer ignorance - he has obviously mistaken the low-IQ contributors to talk-back radio etc for educated intelligent Australians.

@Kekendika:

LOL, calm down looney. I think it is clear West Papua is fairly and legitimately an integral part of Indonesia. That is final and not negotiable. There is nothing weakling Australians can do to challenge this fact. Deal with it.

@dee:

LOL, so you consider yourself a "rational" person. Is it rational for an Australian, descendent of genocidaires living in a white imperialist colony established over illegally-stolen land, to try preaching human rights? Is it rational for an Australian, a country where 28% of its women are sexually-abused as little girls, to accuse others of being "sexists"? Is it rational for Adolf Hitler to preach Judaism?

LOL, your capability of logical and rational thinking is clearly limited.

@Ludwig:

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

Oh dear – more Indonesian racial harmony - I suppose this is gross misrepresentation?

There are many ways a local government can handle the brutal murder of a high school student who volunteered as a counselor for rape victims. Wreaths and deep regrets come to mind. Not in Indonesia. Just one day after teen-ager Martadinata Haryono was stabbed to death in her home, government officials called her a drug-addict, accused her of sodomy, and denying the murder had anything to do with her work comforting ethnic Chinese women raped terrifying May riots. Dr. Mun'im Idris told the state Antara news agency. "Her head was almost cut off at the throat," Idris said.
"People will now be afraid to tell anyone what happened during the riots," said Ester Indahyani Jusuf Lubis, leader of an anti-discrimination group, according to the Associated Press. "This is terrorizing Indonesia's ethnic Chinese." Haryono and her mother Wiwin both worked for Volunteers for Humanity, a group that counsels the estimated 168 mostly Chinese women who were raped during the spring chaos, which killed an estimated 1,200 and helped depose longtime president Suharto.
http://www.colorq.org/HumanRights/article.aspx?d=Indonesia&x=Ita

Indonesian Rape Victims Wait for Justice
THE INDONESIAN military may well have learned a new and evil lesson from Bosnia or Rwanda: One way to devastate your enemy is to degrade, rape and destroy the enemy's women. In all the historic waves of Indonesian riots and violence against the ethnic Chinese - who are a tiny but economically powerful minority in Indonesia - there have never before been reports of gang rape.

Following Indonesia's staggering descent into chaos and globalization road kill - nearly half the population of 200 million is poor to the point of desperation. Public anger was swiftly focused on the Chinese minority by hate propaganda.Emerging evidence points to the possible guilty role of General Prabowo Subianto, the ferocious son-in-law of the former dictator Suharto. Prabowo has recently admitted to ordering the ``disappearance'' of more than two dozen murdered political dissidents. Suspicion about his role in the organized riots and gang rapes circles persistently around him like flies around carrion.
http://www.nyct.net/~china/ic_11_980906.html

I do remember some child accusing Australians of being immature racists with links to Stormfront
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=117

What the little ignorami forgot was to delete the rules of that forum printed below, but not to worry, we are in the position to be able to ignore his own racist slurs and attacks – something he accuses Australians of being guilty, however this forum allows and panders to undereducated mindless moronic cretins who unfortunately, are incapable of knowing any better.

EVERYBODY READ THIS VERBATIM POSTING

I am writing this because I am sick and tired of fixing, editing, deleting reorganizing and sorting out posts and threads in this forum. Then getting bitched at for doing so.

I assume we are all adults here and we ALL can abide by the basic guidelines set out for us by the owner of this forum, Mr. Don Black.

Consider this a first and final warning.

If your post does not conform to the guidelines it WILL be deleted. Not edited, DELETED. If you continue to break these guidelines you will be moderated or banned. No if's or buts.

For those that do not know the guidelines that can be found here.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=213684
• DO NOT advocate or suggest any activity which is illegal under U.S. or Australian law.
• No profanity. Avoid racial epithets.
• No personal flames.
• No attacks against other White nationalities
• If you wish to debate religion, you must request to join the Theology user group. Religion is a personal issue, which often becomes bitterly divisive.
• Make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and capitalization (no ALL-CAPS posts).
• No spamming. Don't post unless you have something relevant to say.
• Post only to appropriate forums.
• Post only under one user name. Anyone with "multiple personalities" will have all their accounts deleted.
• If you're here to argue with us, confine your posts to the "Opposing Views" forum if you don't want them deleted.

If we ALL follow these basic guidelines we will have a pleasant place to visit, one we can ALL be proud of.

PTBI - clean up your own backyard before throwing stupid accusations around:

Extract from U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June 2005

INCIDENCE AND NATURE OF CHILD LABOR -

'The Indonesian government reports that 6 to 12 million Indonesian children are involved in the worst forms of child labor, identified as prostitution; child trafficking; etc.

CHILDREN - Commercial sexual exploitation of children continued to be a serious problem... an ILO assessment estimated there were approximately 21,000 child prostitutes on the island of Java.

During the year, there were cases in which employment brokers paid parents advances of future salaries to be earned by their daughters. The child was required to repay the employment brokers. Researchers described a "culture of prostitution" in some parts of the country, where parents encouraged their daughters to work as big-city prostitutes and send the proceeds home.

Child prostitution is ... rampant in the karaoke bars and massage parlors of Lokasari in West Jakarta. The girls ... were forced into prostitution by their own parents. In certain villages in the West Java regency there is competition to invest in and prepare children for prostitution in the cities, expecting high returns on investments.

The International Labor Organization (ILO) says thousands of children in Java have been forced into prostitution by their parents and others.... researchers found more than 21,000 prostituted children ... during a study of Jakarta and all Javanese provinces except Banten.

Poverty, ignorance and unenforced laws fuel an industry that has sold 70,000 children into prostitution overseas. It is not something any government likes to make public, but the figures say it all: Indonesia is one of the world's largest exporters of sex workers, mainly children. The industry is driven by growing market demand, especially for girls aged 14-18 years, who are considered free of disease. The high price a virgin fetches makes the search for them a highly profitable business.'

Makes a rational person smile at your questionable claim that 28% of Australian girls are abused.

PS, get hold of a dictionary and learn the true definition of 'genocide'.

^^ LOL calm down yobbo

There have been plenty of investigations into the alleged "rapes" of ethnic-Chinese women, by domestic and foreign groups, such as groups from Taiwan and HK. None of them found any evidence of any single rape. Hence, this "rape" rumour has no currency amongst Indonesians.

There were serious anti-Chinese sentiments under Suharto since he gave ethnic-Chinese cronies economic advantages which discriminate against natives. Suharto also used the Chinese-Indonesians as scapegoat each time there is discontent against his regime.

However, after fall of Suharto in 1998, there has been not a single anti-Chinese incident, and remember Indonesia has the largest overseas Chinese community in the world (12 million). These millions of ethnic-Chinese strongly intermarried with natives, speak Indonesian as first language, use Indonesian names, practice Indonesian culture, and are happy living in Indonesia. How can Indonesia have the largest overseas Chinese community in the world (with lots of illegal immigration from China) if they are persecuted here?

PICS OF CHINESE TEMPLES IN INDONESIA:
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8447

PICS OF CHINESE-INDONESIAN CELEBS:
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8002

Hence, this "rape" rumour has no currency amongst Indonesians."

Just as the puerile 'genocide' nonsense you post regarding Aboriginals has no currency amongst Australians.

"There were serious anti-Chinese sentiments under Suharto ..."

So the Chinese community in general were punished for Suharto's economic crimes?

"However, after fall of Suharto in 1998, there has been not a single anti-Chinese incident"

How wonderful that Indonesia can boast that not a single Chinese person has been murdered or raped in 7 years.

LOL!

^^
"Just as the puerile 'genocide' nonsense you post regarding Aboriginals has no currency amongst Australians."

LOL, you are a bad liar. Actually your own Australian academics have explicitly mentioned white treatment of Aborigines as "genocide". While your own High Court acknowledged the illegality of white invasion of Australia in its Mabo Decision of 1995. Your own PM Paul Keating admitted the evil genocide committed by whites and Aborigines and apologised for this sin.

GENOCIDE ON ABORIGINES IN AUSTRALIA BY PROF COLIN TATZ (DIRECTOR OF CENTRE FOR COMPARATIVE GENOCIDE STUDIES AT MACQUARIE UNIVERSITY)
http://www.kooriweb.org/foley/news/story6.html

ILLEGAL THEFT OF ABORIGINAL LAND BY WHITES, AS RULED BY HIGH COURT DECISION ON MABO CASE
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/archives/mabo/

Still trying to deny the barbaric genocide committed by whites on Aborigines?

"So the Chinese community in general were punished for Suharto's economic crimes?"

It was the Suharto's trick to make sure the economy was dominated by his ethnic-Chinese cronies (who have little capability to become political opponenet), while scape-goating the general Chinese community whenever there were discontent on his rule by direct provocations by his agents.

Chinese-Indonesians woes was caused by attempts by both nationalist China (Taiwan) and communist China to overthrow Indonesian government. The Taiwanese govt under Chiang Kai-shek backed the anti-Sukarno PRRI-Permesta rebellion of 1958 along with CIA and MI-5. Several years later, communist Chinese leader Mao Zedong ordered Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) to launch abortive coup attempt of 1965 (G30S/PKI). As result, China was Indonesia's enemy for decades afterwards. To prevent the local Chinese-Indonesians (who during colonialism was politically-aligned to China) from becoming fifth-column for enemy country China, laws targetting Chinese-Indonesians was passed meant to cut links with China, as means to defend Indonesia's security from foreign subversion.

This act to defend our national security is much humane than what the white Americans did to their Japanese community during World War II, when US govt confiscate all their assets and jailed the entire Japanese community in desolate concentration camps! This gross human-rights violation was done by USA on completely innocent people based only on their race!

PTBI – if ‘genocide’ had been committed in Australia, there would be no Aboriginals today. The concept is not that difficult.

Your constant moralising about Aboriginals doesn’t disguise the fact that you consistently refuse to address facts regarding Indonesia. You drone on about things that happened in Australia many years ago, crimes that nobody now living took part in, ideas from a previous century – but nowhere have you acknowledged the atrocities happening in your own country right now, such as the Indonesian government report that 6 to 12 million children are involved in child labour, child trafficking and a "culture of prostitution" where parents encourage their daughters to work as big-city prostitutes and send the proceeds home. You have nothing to say about this situation? No moralising?

“ …much humane than what the white Americans did to their Japanese community ..”

Since when is rioting, burning and killing ‘more humane’ than internment? The U.S. Japanese were interned because they were regarded as enemy aliens. They were not murdered nor were their women raped. The govt. also eventually compensated them for the loss of property. Has the Indonesian govt. compensated the Chinese?

Remember who started WWII - for you to mention ‘race’ in connection with the West is laughable, since the Japanese are among the most racist people on earth, even today. Ask anyone who had the misfortune to be captured by the Japanese or forced to live under their Fascist rule. Ask the survivors of Nanking, where Japanese soldiers tortured, raped and murdered over 90,000 people, from babies to the very old.

’Suharto's ... ethnic-Chinese cronies;'

So this was a good reason for Indonesians to attack ordinary Chinese, murder them and destroy their property? Were all Chinese ‘Suharto’s cronies’? Of course, since you believe in the Theory of Collective Guilt, all Indonesians are responsible for this situation, whether or not they were alive at the time, whether or not they were among the attackers. Have you personally apologised to the Chinese, or donated money to compensate them for their losses, as you advise Australians to do re Aboriginals?

In realtion to the last posting about the genocide of the Indigenous peoples of australia..here's something interesting to take think about ..... Robert Manne (2004) has defined genocide as not only being committed by killing...it includes 'methods to prevent births..also the forcible removal of children of a group'.
We tend to think of genocide in terms of what happened in Nazi Germany but what occured in Australia, and might i add the removal of children was not abolished until the 1970's so not that long ago, was a mass genocide. The reason that it isn't a huge political debate in the world is because it was done discretely through the changing of policies to justify the murders,removals and general mal treatment of the indigenous population of Australia.
How can anyone say that this does not need to be looked at..the indigenous people suffered massivley and are still suffereing the consequences today...

PTBI – finally unmasked.

Sometimes I wonder why everyone is up in arms about this PTBI character and why you expend so much time trying to argue with a brick wall of vile ignorance and racist epithets.

He has run rings around almost all of you, insulting your intelligence and yet in the end regurgitating the same old trite racist anti-white, anti-Australian, anti-everything-not-Indonesian garbage and getting on everyone’s wicks AND many have wondered (OK – well I would say all of you have wondered) where he is and where he is from and come up with wild fantasies, which are just that – wild fantasies.

I realized quite early in the piece that his main aim was to sow discord and tension, many and you know who you are, tried to reason with him, only to be rebuffed and further insulted and whilst chainsmoker has come up with a reasonable hypothesis and put forward a reasonable conjecture as to whom he actually is, he also is not quite right with that either

You have all tried to argue against him instead of investigating PTBI, you have all tried to prune his leaves and camouflage, instead of getting to the root of the disease and like a weed it comes back stronger – ignoring rhyme and reason with a repetitive attack – all the while wasting your valuable time and resources…...

He is rat animal cunning and has treated you all with contempt (sometimes I think many of you really invite contempt) BUT what he has not been seen is that he has left a trail miles wide – and you people are so blind as to not be able to see the forest for the trees.

Maybe you are not as naturally devious as I am, maybe I am just a natural trawler of garbage, but I do believe I have tracked him down, for you see as it was said in a posting, is never, ever erased and to find someone just takes a little patience, so if anyone is interested in some knowledge, just let me know…….

Actually K... I'm interested.

bristraveller@hotmail.com

Cheers...

As am I, K (interested that is)...tell more

"If you are really mature, you'll return Australia to Aborigines. If you no longer remember what land you came from, you'll apply for the kind permission of Aborigines to stay in their land. You'll pay them compensation for the land you stay upon and for the pain inflicted upon them by whites. If you can't afford it, you'll ask for the white govt to compensate Aborigines on your behalf."

That's okay PTBI. You appear to be so stupid that you cannot see the hypocrisy in your statements. Imagine had (racist) Australians not helped in allowing Indonesia to gain independence, the war against the Dutch would have reigned for a quite a while longer with many more Indonesians being killed, until it became economically unfeasible for the Netherlands to continue with a lost cause like Indonesia. Imagine even before that during, the Australians were fighting for their right to survive with the war against Japan, and this indirectly influenced your current independence. I doubt whether even the Dutch would have bothered trying to reclaim the East Indies with Japanese thoroughly occupying the area. You should also be grateful that you have such an advanced country like Australia as one of your neighbours. "Australia economically weak" did you say? Indonesia has a GDP of about $US900 billion or a GDP per capita of $US3700. Australia has a GDP of just over $US600 billion or a GDP per capita of about $30,000. This makes Australia's economy about 10 times stronger than Indonesias. For god sake, Suharto lost his presidency as the result of his country's flimsy economy in the late 1990s. For all your ranting and raving, you guys couldn't even get your military mobilised to look after a tsunami ravaged region. What good would it be doing in West Papua? I would have thought that Indonesia seeing 43 boat people head for Australia would be a matter of "good riddance" for Indonesia's cause. One wonders about the collective intelligence of Indonesia's politics.

@dee:

"PTBI – if ‘genocide’ had been committed in Australia, there would be no Aboriginals today. The concept is not that difficult."

LOL, so with this logic of yours, the Holocaust was not a genocide, since there are lots of Jewish people living in Germany and Europe today.

"Ask the survivors of Nanking, where Japanese soldiers tortured, raped and murdered over 90,000 people, from babies to the very old."

LOL, are you blaming Japanese-Americans living for generations in California for the Nanking atrocities? And you try to accuse me of "generalising"? I guess your logic is quite twisted.

"Have you personally apologised to the Chinese, or donated money to compensate them for their losses, as you advise Australians to do re Aboriginals?"

LOL, I am half-Chinese myself. Chinese-Indonesians have intermarried and assimilate with natives so much it is difficult to differentiate them with other Indonesian ethnicities. We Chinese-Indonesians speak Indonesian and practice Indonesian culture, we have much more thing in common with native Indonesians than with Chinese from China.

@ANI:

Spot on, old chap. It is sad how many white Australians are denying the despicable genocide committed against Aborigines :-(

@PJT:

LOL, don't praise yourself. Australia has no influence in Indonesian war of independence. Neither Indonesians nor the Dutch cared about puny Australia. Indonesia's cause was supported by both USA and Soviet Union, while nobody supported the tiny Dutch (the British supported them at first, but Indonesians killed three British generals and 1500 British soldiers between 1945-46 which made them change their mind). Indonesia owes its independence to nobody but itself!

Your GDP per capita might be higher since your population is 10 times smaller than Indonesia's, but our overall GDP is much higher than yours, while our economic growth far outstrips Australia's. Both regionally and internationally, your economy is insignificant. For Indonesia or other ASEAN countries, Australia is not an important trade partner. Why should we even bother with your "economy"?

And how dare you deny the sacrifices made by our military to help victims of tsunami!

GALLERY OF PICS OF TNI HUMANITARIAN OPERATIONS IN POST-TSUNAMI ACEH
http://www.tni.mil.id/gallery.php?q=dtl&cid=10

You have to be kidding yourself if you think that Australia had "no influence" in helping Indonesia gain its independence from the Netherlands. Australian troops occupied parts of modern day Indonesia to control the threat of Japanese troops still in Indonesia at the surrender of WW2. But when Dutch troops replaced the Australian troops, and then eventually regained control of the Indonesian archipelago, it was the USA, Britain, USSR, India and Australia supporting Indonesia's right to become part of the United Nations. Australia was boycotting the Dutch shipping by July 30, 1947. Imagine what sort of impact the boycott by Australia against the Netherlands' shipping would have had. Couldn't you admit/concede that it would have been more difficult for the Dutch to give supplies to the colonialists and wage further war on Indonesia? If you can't see that international pressure (especially from the USA) onto the Netherlands was what ultimately gave Indonesia its independence, then I don't know what you have been smoking.

Australia's population in comparison with Indonesia's has no real bearing on our GDP per capita. But your own GDP is only about $US300 billion more than Australia's based on Indonesia's 200 million more people living in that 'country'. Over $600 Billion isn't an insignificant economy. Would you really want to insult 20 million potential rich customers in Australia from buying from your country? Of course, I would hope that Indonesia's economic growth outstrips Australia's 4% per year rate. We don't want to see Indonesia keep falling backwards like it did nearly 10 years ago. You guys would have to play a lot of catch up after the disaster of the Asian financial crisis.

Only the top 10% of the Indonesia population makes (or betters) the average wages made by Australians. I would assume that the extra $300 billion would made up of income from the other 200 million Indonesians living in poverty. That's $1500 per year. Heck, I make that sort of money in a fortnight. But even then, you guys would be helpless without the IMF being your meal ticket.

ANI - Nobody is saying that the situation re Aboriginals should not be looked into, but the emphasis should be on the future, not on continually looking back to the past.

Murders, removals, etc - nobody denies that these things happened, but becoming fixated on events that can never be changed is counterproductive. Time spent agonising over the past is time wasted. There are so many issues in the Aboriginal community that need to be addressed urgently, like child abuse, domestic violence, alcoholism and drug abuse, illiteracy - these problems cannot be solved by throwing money at them, nor by the interference of well meaning white Australians. These problems can only be solved by aboriginals themselves. Living your life feeling full of resentment and hating other Australians because of past events that cannot be changed will not solve anything, in fact it will make Aboriginals even more miserable.

PTBI - 'are you blaming Japanese-Americans .. for the Nanking atrocities?'

No, that is your own twisted interpretation of my words.

I see Indonesians have a new hero - a religious Fascist who's threatening to nuke us .. I saw a photograph of this low-rent little man posing with the Iranian militia, amazing, they have the same shoulder patches as the Nazi SS. Lots of other things in common too, I'm sure.

'Iran’s leader a new hero among Indonesians'

'HE’S tiny, wears a perfectly groomed beard and waves to his supporters with both hands clasped high in the air, prize-fighter-style - and now Jakarta’s university students have declared Mahmoud Ahmadinejad “the world’s most charismatic leader”.'

@PJT:

"Imagine what sort of impact the boycott by Australia against the Netherlands' shipping would have had."

None, because Dutch supply lines to Indonesia do not pass through Australia at all, as anyone with basic geographical knowledge would realise. The supply line went from Rotterdam-Port Said-Bombay-Singapore-Indonesia. The Dutch couldn't care less about faraway Australian ports. Besides, this "Australian" boycott was organised by Indonesian communists exiled to Australia by the Dutch during WWII.

As I said, US influence was important, but American support only came after Indonesians crushed communist rebellion of 1948, which cements our reputation as anti-communist country during Cold War. Prior to that, USA was sympathetic to the Dutch.

It was thanks to the brilliant work of Indonesian diplomats and the foolish blunders of the Dutch that Indonesian cause received almost total international support.

Again, without the sacrifices of new-Indonesian military who killed 4000 Dutch soldiers while losing around 20 thousand, our new republic would've been crushed by the 200,000 Dutch invaders. Instead, Indonesian govt survived the Dutch onslaught completely unscathed.

It is clear, Indonesians owes its independence to no-one but to themselves!

As for your childish economic "comments", some facts:

1)GDP per capita is inversely related with population.

2)Australia is not an important trading partner for Indonesia.

3)Indonesia's economic growth (5.5%) far outstrips Australia's (2.5%)

4)Indonesia's GDP per capita exceeds pre-crisis levels since 2003, Indonesia stopped taking IMF money since 2003.

5)Indonesia's poverty rate is relatively low 15% and declining fast.

@dee:

What will you think if foreigners steal your land, destroy your culture, kill your family, and kidnap your children? Will you tell yourself to "forget" the persecutions you received?

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

PTBI - 'What will you think if foreigners steal your land, destroy your culture, kill your family, and kidnap your children? Will you tell yourself to "forget" the persecutions you received?'

1.I am not a 'foreigner', I am as much an Australian as anyone of aboriginal descent. I have never stolen land, killed aboriginals or kidnapped their children, neither has anyone I know. Most of the people who did these things are dead. Blaming contemporary Australians for the sins of the past committed by other people is clearly absurd.

2.I have never said that aboriginals should ‘forget’. You are once again misquoting or placing your own incorrect interpretation on my words. Aboriginals have a choice – they can sit around living on taxpayers money believing that the rest of us owe them a living, hating other Australians and obsessing about past events that cannot be changed, or they can decide to join the rest of us. Acting the victim is not the path to a successful life. There is no reason why they cannot succeed at school, go on to university and make their own lives. Many aboriginals have done so.

3. As for leaving Australia, giving it back to aboriginals etc - are you aware of how absurd and simplistic you sound? Especially since Indonesia is hellbent on pretending that they are legitimately in West New Guinea. Why dont you act on your own advice and give WNG back to its inhabitants?

@dee:

LOL, you are not Australian, you are English/Irish/*random European nationality* who have been squatting for too long on Aboriginal land without their permission.

Does returning stolen property to its rightful owner such an incomprehensible prospect for you? If you no longer have any home, you could apply to the Aborgines for their benevolent permission for you to stay in their land. Of course, you need to pay them for the land you own according to market rates, and also pay them just compensation for all the pain they've suffered for the past 200 years. If you cannot afford it, you'll ask the white govt to pay on your behalf.

What is important:
RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

PTBI - whatever your ignorant rantings, I am Australian born, so were my parents and so were their parents. My ancestors helped to build Australia and helped to defend it, so we wont be going anywhere. This is our country. Waste any amount of your time trying to provoke, you will get the same answer from most Australians. Its our country, we built it and we're staying right here. Isnt it annoying when people refuse to feel guilty to suit you? I realise that its a huge insult to have successful wealthy neighbours who built a modern country in the short space of 200 years, but there's nothing you can do about it.

And you still havent answered the question:

Why doesnt Indonesia return WNG to its original inhabitants?

Surely you cant believe that they actually want you in their country?

The Americans could have quite easily supported the Dutch into retaking the East Indies, had it not been for the influence of the second world war. Obviously, colonies became more of a liability than an asset. Indonesia, however during the 1970s, decided to colonise Timor and West Papua. Awfully hypocritical of a nation like Indonesia to go on a colonisation crusade, despite being subjected to 300 years of colonisation itself.

I didn't say that Australia is the most important trading partner (as you are deviously trying to imply), but it is an important trading partner with Indonesia. My information says that Indonesia (as of the year 2003) has 5% of its imports coming from Australia. Australia didn't even rate a mention as a country that Indonesia exports to. You guys don't have anything that we want or need.

As I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if or that Indonesia has a higher rate of economic growth than Australia. After the Asian financial crisis, Indonesia had nowhere to go but upwards. It's quite easy to have a fast rate of economic growth after a recession, but it doesn't mean that Indonesia has a healthy economy. Indonesia needs to play a game of catch up with the rest of the region really quickly. There would be no unexpectedness in this day and age if Indonesia's economy gets done over by a Bird Flu attack, given that Indonesia is STILL such a rural economy.

Your figure about a 15% poverty rate for Indonesia coincides with my figure, but I don't see how you can find that pleasing. That is one in every six people in Indonesia living in poverty. The definition of "poverty" for you guys would be pretty much a normal average life for many people. Poverty for Australians means destitution. Even the unemployed seem like millionaires compared to the average Indonesian.

The fair thing for Indonesia would be to pay Australia back that half a billion dollars in aid money from the tsunami disaster. Face it, your country wouldn't want to do that.

@dee:

LOL, your "country" is just a little England implanted into stolen Aboriginal land. "Australia" is not a country who built itself. Even 200 years later, your head of state is still the queen of England who lives far-far away in Buckingham Palace. Australia is not your country, it belong to Aborigines. You are just an English/Irish/*random European nationality* who have been squatting for too long on Aboriginal land without their permission.

RETURN THE STOLEN LAND BACK TO ITS RIGHTFUL OWNERS!!

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

@PJT:

LOL, calm down boy. Regardless of your dreams, Australia is not an important country for Indonesia, hence we can basically treat you in whatever way we feel like. Mostly, we Indonesians couldn't care less about your country. Deal with it.

On May 1, 1963, when Indonesia became the new colonial power in WNG, the elected West Papuan Council was disbanded, West Papuan flags were banned and burnt, singing of the West Papuan national anthem was banned, the founding of any new political parties was banned, and anything else to do with West Papuan independence was destroyed. An estimated 100,000 people have been killed since 1963, although some observers say the figure may be much higher. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the local human rights organization, Els-ham have been attempting to alert the world community to ongoing and systematic abuses in WNG, including arbitrary detention, rape, torture, beatings in custody and extra-judicial killing.

Isnt this 'attempted genocide'? Or is it only 'genocide' when it involves white people?

Your silly comments and repeated attempts to simplify complex issues demonstrate how little you know about Australia, Aboriginals or real life. And yes, settlers built Australia in 200 years - Aboriginals built nothing in 40,000 years. Indonesians have not managed to build a peaceful free country where people have basic human rights in several hundred years. Is that why you hate Australia so much?

You have access to a computer for which you need electricity. Do you drive a car? Do you watch television? Do you use the telephone? Have you flown overseas? Then say thank you to the white race that you hate so much because all the things making your life easier are western inventions.

As for the Queen as Australian head of state - better the Queen than someone like Megawati.

LOL, under Indonesian rule, imporved health service mean native Papuan population surged and more than doubled. Isn't that serving human rights. Barbaric Papuan separatists have for many times kill, rape, and mutiliate non-Papuan women and children just because of their ethnicity.

Isn't that attempted genocide? Or is it only "genocide" when it involves Indonesian people?

I see you again seek to justify your genocide against Aborigines by saying "they built nothing". Shame on you.
RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

As for the queen, better Megawati than someone like the queen.

PTBI - 'Justify'? I dont have to 'justify' any facet of my existence to you - neither does any other Australian. Do you imagine you are the moral conscience of the world? If you wish to pose as such, dont mention that you are Indonesian or people may ask you to justify the many human rights abuses committed by Indonesians both at home and abroad, which I notice you never admit to nor mention.

You are obviously too thick to comprehend the difference between past and present and the fact that contemporary Australians have not committed genocide, killed aboriginals etc, so there is no point in wasting more time on you. Perhaps you should travel to Canada, the US, South America, New Zealand etc instructing the citizens of those countries to give them back to the original indigenous inhabitants so the whole New World could then revert to primitive tribalism. I'm sure that would give them a good laugh.

And you forgot to say thank you to the hated white race for inventing all the things that make your life safer and easier.

Better the intelligent and cultured Queen Liz than a puppet like Megawati any day.

@dee:

Hehehehe, speak to yourself. We Indonesians do not need to justify our territorial integrity to you - neither should any other Indonesian. You think Australia is the "moral concience" of the world? If you wish to pretend as such, don't mention you are Australian or people might ask you to justify your barbaric genocide against Aborigines, which I notice you've vainly seek to justify by dehumanising Aborigines.

Better the intelligent and charismatic Megawati than the dysfunctional mother like the queen any day.

I would like to see PTBI pack up all Indonesians and head back to mainland Asia. Or perhaps he doesn't believe in living by his own rules.

What would be his country's philosophy if the near impossible thought that Australians (who actually built Australia) packed up and left for Europe, Asia, Africa, America, etc? Probably to colonise Australia with Indonesian transmigrants. Yep, it would be another Papua-like invasian of Australia, where little defense is met by Aborigines (who have gone back to living a subsistence lifestyle). Then the Indonesian president goes on an Indonesianisation of what was once Australia, and turn it into another third world country, just as is Indonesia.

Yep, we understand PTBI's thinking. His country is just dirty because there's too many white people condemning his country's greed. That's the whole point of this topic. Indonesia is just pissed off that a western country is monitoring Indonesia's activities.

"What would be his country's philosophy if the near impossible thought that Australians [sic] packed up and left for Europe, Asia, Africa, America, etc?"

Some politically-aware Indonesians would rejoice at such a good riddance, but overwhelming majority of Indonesians wouldn't care at all as what happened in Australia doesn't concern them.

PJT - 'His country is just dirty because there's too many white people condemning his country's greed...Indonesia is just pissed off that a western country is monitoring Indonesia's activities.'

Of course. PTBI believes that Australia should be monitored instead of Indonesia because some of our ancestors mistreated aboriginals. I have asked several times if he feels the same way about Americans, South Americans, Canadians etc, but apparently its only white Australians who are guilty of 'genocide'. Of course, if we ever left (or more likely, over our dead bodies), Indonesians could then move in and take advantage of the country we have built, emulating the never-ending stream of illegal Indonesian fishermen we catch stealing from our territorial waters.

PTBI - if most Indonesians do not care about Australia, as you claim, why do you care so much? Do you have some special reason to hate Australians - my guess is that you simply hate white people because you resent the fact that you depend on the world we have made for your comfort and convenience (remember those cars, computers, telephones, tv, CDs etc), so may I suggest you get aboard your time machine, go back to the past and change everything.

@dee:

Indeed Australia must be monitored to ensure this "country" improve its treatment of Aborigines, which now suffered terrible living conditions while whites lived in so-called "first world" situation.

Remember, Indonesia is elected by 163 countries as member of new UN Human Rights Council, while Australia was not elected. We are in good position to help the Aborigines human rights situation.

"PTBI - if most Indonesians do not care about Australia, as you claim, why do you care so much? Do you have some special reason to hate Australians"

LOL, I talk about Australia because this is an Australian website.

Don't drag other countries which has nothing to do with this topic just in a vain attempt to justify your despicable genocide on Aborigines.

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

PTBI - ‘Indeed Australia must be monitored’

– Australia monitored by Indonesia? Dream on! To quote your own phrase - LOL. Its almost as funny as the thought of my 'justifying' myself to you.

‘We are in good position to help the Aborigines human rights situation’

– I’m sure that Aboriginals would love to receive the same kind of ‘help’ received by the East Timorese. The stated topic of this forum is not aboriginals although you persist in discussing the subject (about which you know nothing). The topic is:

'Can Australia always decide who comes to this country and conditions under which they come?'

When the WNG refugee incident is reduced to the bare facts, it is a case of childishness on the part of the Indonesian govt. Australia granted temporary refugee status to a group who claimed to be in fear of their lives from Indonesian authorities. Indonesia immediately threw a childish tantrum.

How dare Australian officials obey Australian law? According to the Indonesian govt. Australian officials should have discounted the refugees’ story immediately because, obviously, the officials should have known that they were lying because Indonesian authorities would never, never persecute anyone (lets put aside East Timor for the moment). Obviously, officials should have ignored Australia’s obligations under the Migration Act so that Indonesian feelings were not hurt; they should have made an exception because the people claiming refugee status were West New Guineans. According to the Indonesian govt., Australia should ignore legalities if Indonesia is involved.

The Indonesian govt.(and many Indonesians also, I’m sure) will never forgive Australia for being involved in exposing Indonesian atrocities in East Timor – obviously, a truly friendly neighbour would have kept quiet to save Indonesian pride. No doubt we should also keep quiet on the endemic corruption, crimes against children and creeping Islamic fundamentalism that is happening in Indonesia.

But don’t worry, maybe Indonesia’s new friend, the Iranian madman, may nuke Australia if you ask him nicely. Until that happens, feel free to continue your ravings about ‘genocide’ etc. while ignoring the situation in your own country

"Proud to be idiotic" claims that Indonesia would be "in a good position to help the Aborigines' human rights situation". Is he serious? Given the fact that aborigines in Australia have a higher standard of living than most Indonesians, it would be the Australian aborigines in the better position to help Indonesians out.

It has never been a better time to claim aboriginality in Australia. Even Sri Lankans have been known to fool the welfare department and claim aboriginal benefits. If you ever felt the need to get your facts into order, PTBI, you could look up the www.centrelink.gov.au website and have a rummage through the ABSTUDY vs AUSTUDY payments for students. I may be wrong, but I don't even think there is any real onus on people of aboriginal origin to even look for work, while they are claiming unemployment. There are jobs set aside just for aboriginal people, that are denied to non-aboriginals. Extra help is given to aboriginal people seeking to obtain qualifications, skills, or the ability to enter the workforce. Housing loan rates for aborigines are less than what others have to endure. I even know of one aboriginal guy that could get a job in a mining community, based solely on his grandmother's association with a tribe in the region.

What sort of special treatment do East Timorese and WPNGs get from Indonesia? I remember the video footage of seeing anti-independence militia attacking East Timorese, while no military personnel came to stop the bloodshed until Interfet arrived. I wouldn't be surprised if the Indonesian military are doing the same in West Papua. Are you sure, PTBI, that you want to criticise other countries about human rights, when visibly your country cannot even get its own affairs in order?

@PJT:

Aborigines has much lower life expectantcy, lower health levels, higher death rate, higher imprisonment rate, lower education levels, and high levels of poverty much more than other people living in Indonesia. It's sad you are trying to lie that Aborigines are "well-treated" and everything is fine and dandy, while the fact is Aborigines suffered terrible living conditions while whites gloated of living "first-world" in stolen Aboriginal land. So sad :-(

We have been elected to UN Human Rights Council by 163 countries. Our military has been involved with UN peace-keeping from Egypt 1956 to Congo today. President SBY was leader of UN peace-keeping mission to Bosnia-Hercegovina. None of your threats can deter us from fulfilling our international obligations to monitor international human rights violations such as what whites are doing with Aborigines.

"What sort of special treatment do East Timorese and WPNGs get from Indonesia?"

Indonesia subsidise East Timor seven times its average development expenditure to other provinces. This is why we expel that province from Indonesia bcoz we no longer can afford the heavy subsidies burden for that half-island. We are currently subsidising Rp 1 trillion to West Papua each year.

@dee:

"Australia monitored by Indonesia? Dream on"

LOL, if Australia want to "monitor" Indonesia, Indonesia certainly can monitor Australia. Why you are so panickly? You have nothing to fear from our monitoring if you have nothing to hide, right?

LOL, it is clear Indonesia never seek to interfere in Australian affairs, we are merely seeking our right for self-protection from violent attacks based from Australia. Your wise PM Howard and minister Vanstone understand our legitimate concerns and change your laws according to our wishes. Very good way for Australia to change its laws in response to our concerns.

Proud to Be Indonesian:
It’s a little incongruous that you take such an unsympathetic stand towards the West Papuan freedom fighters. After all, the tactics they employ are the same as those the Javanese independence groups employed against the Dutch- as are their motives.

And I need to draw your attention to a ‘little problem’ you have re the mistreatment, i.e. murder, rape & pillaging of the minority groups on Java, Sulawesi ,Ambon & Aceh.

PTBI I respectively suggest that you clean-up your own backyard before leaning over the fence trying to pointing out your neighbor’s deficiencies.

@Horus:

"And I need to draw your attention to a ‘little problem’ you have re the mistreatment, i.e. murder, rape & pillaging of the minority groups on Java, Sulawesi ,Ambon & Aceh."

LOL, actually none of your above sundry accusations ever happened, as they only exists in your imagination.

I "respectively" suggest you acknowledge the white genocide against Aborigines and illegal theft of Aboriginal land, and do the right thing: RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

Proud To Be Javanese:
I suggest you talk to some of Indonesian -Chinese.
They have been subjected to murder, rape, arson & pillage on a regular basis.From at least the time of Sukarno (& possibly before) up until,the latest outburst in 2001.

If the bias & censorship of the Indonesian press stopped you from being informed on such matters, I suggest you do a Google search on Indonesian history-It will be all there for you to see.

The Indonesian Govt certainly believes it happen because they go through the charade each time of holding official investigations.

When you have finished your Google searches on the mistreatment of Chinese.Come back to me and I will give you leads on how to look-up source material on the (on-going) misdeeds of the Indonesian military in Aceh. Or the (on-going) “holy wars” waged against Christians on Sulawesi and Ambon.

Horus,

At the small risk of being ever so repetitious, may I suggest that you do a search on PTBI and view ANY of PTBI's previous posts, AND of course, please understand and note that not is all that it seems to be - so never presume, nor ever assume that because someone says that white is black, does not necessarily mean that black is not white either. Then of course, you will come to the conclusion that what has been written is all lies and corruption - except for the links you do not provide

If you are able to work that out, then you may find that speaking with a hollow drum or solid wall will be more beneficial.

Failing that, I can give you a good source of headache remedies .....

Uh,uh Horus - dont get into this. No matter what proof you provide, PTBI will say its a lie, it never happened, everything Indonesia does is right and just - blah blah blah. Its a bit like arguing with a fanatical religious person or a dedicated Commie - ie a complete waste of time.

I would like to send him for a 6 month holiday in the Northern Territory as the guest of an aboriginal community. If he could dodge the spears, bottles and drunken rapists, he may learn something - then, taking his advice, the kind and humane Indonesians could 'help' aboriginals, as he offered to do.

Now that would be worth seeing.

Dee ......

You are such a viscous cynic (bit like me in a way one would suppose) but if you did send PTBI (please note the politically correctness of asexual gender) to one of our nicer settlements, then it would only be turned back against you.

But then again, do you not think they have enough problems already, without the added extra impost of a foreign racist spreading impossible solutions. I actually have some fairly good Aboriginal friends - and they would be pointing the bone at you for such an insidious suggestion......

PTBI. Here are a few facts for you to ponder.

The average life expectancy has expanded an average 20 years over the last 100 years. The average life expenctancy for Australians is about 80 years. Indonesians' are about 70 years. There are claims that aboriginal people live on average for about 60 years. That's taking into consideration that aboriginal infant mortality rates that are atleast 4 times that of non-indigenous Australians. This inflated rate of infant mortality is primarily due to substance abuse endemic in aboriginal communities. You can't blame that on your hated white people of Australia.

Education levels have indigenous people completing school (year 1 to year 12) at 39%, compared to 75% for other Australians. Indonesians only spend 5 years in school: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_ave_yea_of_sch_of_adu . I have read elsewhere that many of you guys don't even finish schooling past the age of 15.

Crime rates for aboriginal people would appear disproportionate compared to non-aboriginal people, because there is a substance and alcohol problem amongst the aborigine population. It is quite common for aboriginal people to be locked up for a night to sober up a night of drunk and disorderly behaviour. My town is 5% aboriginal, and I haven't gone many weeks without seeing drunken behaviour by a visible minority of aborigines. Take this next link with a grain of salt, if you wish: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19164035-601,00.html . It details the problem of domestic violence that has carried on from pre-colonial times to today. Domestic violence has been a cultural problem in Aboriginal communities for the past 60,000 years. I can't say without doubt that Indonesia has a lower rate of crime than Australia. The corruption issue following Indonesia deters me from accepting Indonesia as a low crime country.

If we take the GDP of Indonesians into account, where it's (haha) $3700 per person, aborigines would earn more money (on average) than an Indonesian. With welfare the way it is in Australia, one aborigine could get over $10,000.

Indonesia's $100 million in aid to WNG is a pittance compared to the $billions Australia gives the Oceanic region alone.

K - my 3 year old godson is part aboriginal (white mother, half aboriginal father), a happy, intelligent little boy. Its heartbreaking to compare him to the petrol-sniffing and abused children in some outback communities. I spent a lot of time in outback Australia during the 1970s, I saw things I have never forgotten - but it seems that the present situation is the same or worse, nothing has changed. Now authorities are talking about removing children at risk. Why not remove the perpetrators? Any white Australian man who did such things would be imprisoned, but idiot judges continue to give vicious aboriginal males a free pass on 'cultural' grounds.

PJT - 'from pre-colonial times to today.'

The mistreatment of aboriginal women was here long before the white settlers. I recall reading some comments made by the early settlers expressing shock at how badly aboriginal women were treated. Aboriginal men were more than happy to trade their women to white men in return for alcohol, tobacco and sugar. Aboriginal women were obliged to have sex with any one of their husband's age group and were often promised at birth to men three times their age. This is still happening, aboriginal women are still traded off for alcohol or drugs.

@Horus:

LOL, I AM a Chinese-Indonesian, you fool. There are 12 million of us living in Indonesia. We are living freely with natives, often intermarrying with them. We are also generally more prosperous than the rest of the population.

@dee:

How dare you insult and slander the noble Aborigines as "child-abusers" and "wife-beaters". These Aborigines are better than you, because they never committed genocide on anyone, nor have they steal anybody's land!

"How dare you insult and slander the noble Aborigines as "child-abusers" and "wife-beaters". These Aborigines are better than you, because they never committed genocide on anyone, nor have they [sic] steal anybody's land!"

Then PTBI, you are living in a fairyland if you haven't heard about the high instances of abuse perpetrated by aborigines on their own children. Aborigines have also committed genocide against opposing tribes, long before any white people came along. Rules of law and order in tribal communities back then meant that aborigines could spear their troublemakers in the leg, even to the point where the troublemaker could bleed to death.

If you have even suggested seriously that aborigines have not tried to steal people's land, then I have something to shake some reality into you. Over a decade ago, a person by the name of Sam Watson wanted to claim the Central Business District of Brisbane. He rationalised that it really belonged to some tribe, and that they should take over the businesses that have been erected over the past 150 years. Needless to say, the tribal descendents concerned said that they didn't want to claim the CBD of Brisbane.

I am a little bit stunned that you claim to be Chinese-Indonesian, but also "proud to be Indonesian". I would have assumed that after the discrimination faced by ethnic Chinese in Indonesia, you would be known as "headed to China to get away from Indonesians". You have even claimed that white people in Australia aren't Australians, but transplanted Europeans. I would suggest that, despite ethnic Chinese being in Indonesia since the 14th century, the great majority of ethnic Chinese-Indonesians' ancestors only came to Indonesia in the 19th and 20th century. So, don't you crap on about white Australians not being Australians, if you can't even live by your own definition of national identity.

@PJT:

I see, you are slandering and dehumanising the Aborigines to justify your genocide and theft of land committed by whites against them. So sad :-(

LOL, Chinese-Indonesians mostly cannot even speak Chinese, much less "moving" to China. In fact, Indonesia has lots of illegal immigrants coming from China. My mother is native Indonesian while my dad is Chinese-Indonesian who was given citizenship by the benevolent Indonesian government shortly after independence, unlike the evil whites who refused to give citizenship to the real Australian Aborigines until recently.

Proud to Indonsian
So you are Chinese

Well just one word of warning-and I will not pursue the discussion after this ( as I have been given some sound advice).

There were French people in Europe who supported the the German Invaders during World War 2.

They "saw no evil" as well

However, come the end of the war there was a time of reckoning,
and sorry to say,their fate was not pretty.

PTBI - 'noble aboriginals' wrongly portrayed as abusers? You are an ignorant fool.

The Crown Prosecutor for Alice Springs, Nanette Rogers, spoke on television in Sydney, detailing many horrific cases of child abuse in the aboriginal community. Baby rape is common.

She told how a seven-month-old and a two-year-old were raped in separate incidents, and how a young child drowned while being raped by an 18-year-old petrol sniffer.

Aboriginal boys are 10 times more likely to be raped than other Australian males, in a continuing generational cycle of sexual violence. A survey of 301 indigenous men in Queensland and the NT was conducted over the past 18 months - it found that 10% had been raped before the age of 16 (10 times the rate in the rest of Australia).

In a Kimberley community a four-year-old boy was repeatedly raped by a mature man, until the child lost control of his bodily functions. He was taken to Perth for surgery, then returned to his community (his parents could not be found) until nine months later he was savagely raped again by a 12-year-old assailant.

Local indigenous community leaders (all men) will not speak out or condemn perpetrators who are linked to them by kinship ties. During a tour a few years ago, aboriginal women were threatened if they spoke out about the situation. Much of the rape and sexual abuse come from the tribal custom of promising baby girls to older men as wives. One 9 year old girl had been promised as a wife to a middle aged man, he and his sons kidnapped her, took her into the bush where she was raped continually for 4 days.

There are a thousand stories like these - recently 12 children from one small community were admitted to Cairns Base Hospital, all physically or sexually assaulted. One of them, a seven-year-old girl, had four sexually transmitted diseases of the anus and vagina. One-third of 13-year-old girls in the NT are infected with chlamydia and gonorrhoea.

So much for the 'nobility' of aboriginals.

This is the most ludicrous falsehood you could ever come up with, PTBI. I can only assume that your sententious replies are just desperate cries to get someone to come help you out. But no one will come back you up, because it is hard to support your line of reasoning when you can't even be factual to begin with. I haven't even made any slanderous comments about aborigines or dehumanised them in any way.

For starters, the aborigines never claimed to have owned the land they inhabited. They did move around a lot, as dictated by food sources available. When the British came to invade/settle Australia, they found it quite easy to settle the land because of a lack of contact with aborigines. I could go on about a history of Australia, but I think it would be a waste of my time trying to educate a xenophobe like you (PTBI).

But, to cut a long story short, the aborigines have no been killed off, or they would not exist today. Secondly, if it is theft of the land that you are concerned with, then the amount of money that the Australian government has thrown at aboriginal people would be enough money to buy the whole of Australia off of them a number of times over. No need to worry about "renting" Australia off aborigines, as you suggested, when white Australia has well and truly bought the land already.

I can accept that "most Chinese-Indonesians" don't speak Chinese in Indonesia. But, after looking up information about Chinese-Indonesians just yesterday, there were website sections written about how Megawati had her recent election posters written in Chinese. So, at the very least, there must be some form of segregation going on still between ethnic Chinese and Indonesians in modern day Indonesia.

(end part 1)

A few weeks ago (at most), you were talking about how West Papuans were murdering and raping Indonesian transmigrants. While I can agree that there is a probability that this happening, it still goes to show how you are slandering West Papuans for the actions of a few. But you are probably too *proud* to acknowledge that these West Papuan people clearly aren't enjoying Indonesian occupation, that they choose to risk life and limb by crossing dangerous seas to get to Australia. From your point of view, it means that West Papuans hate "tolerant and benevolent Indonesians" so much that they would rather be with "racist white people" in Australia. Such an action by West Papuans must confuse you no end.

As for giving aborigines citizenship in Australia: Yes, it did take until 1967 to do that. However, even you guys in Indonesia were only just shrugging off colonialism at the time, and invading Timor and West Papua.

PJT
Most Chinese Indonesians do not speak Chinese because for generations it has been actively "discouraged" by the Indonesian Govt.
They had to arrange secret backyard schools to teach it to their children.
They were also "encouraged" to Indonesianise ( or more correctly Javanise their names).
And for a very long time it was illegal to even have street signs in Chinese!

@Horus:

LOL, we were talking about the cruel white genocide on Aborigines, but you suddenly talk about France and Adolf Hitler. Seems like your logic is twisted. I guess it is good you don't reply in this discussion, cuz it is obvious your brain is not up to the task.

@dee:

I see, you are dehumanising and slandering all Aborigines as child-rapists to justify your theft of their land and genocide. Previously you equalise Aborigines with kangaroos. Are you still not satisfied with stealing Aboriginal land and committing genocide against them? How barbaric and cruel you are!

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

@PJT:

LOL, don't deny your attempt to dehumanise the Aborigines by painting all of them as violent criminals. Who are you trying to fool? People are not dumb, we are not born yesterday. -_-'

And yes, your own High Court rules whites steal Australia from Aborigines illegally through the "terra nullius" concept. Thanks to the honorable Torres Strait Islander Mabo who succeeded in recovering his tribal land stolen by whites.

And yes, there is undenibale genocide done by cruel whites on Aborigines.

GENOCIDE ON ABORIGINES IN AUSTRALIA BY PROF COLIN TATZ (DIRECTOR OF CENTRE FOR COMPARATIVE GENOCIDE STUDIES AT MACQUARIE UNIVERSITY)
http://www.kooriweb.org/foley/news/story6.html

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!! RETURN THE STOLEN LAND TO ITS RIGHTFUL OWNERS.

"I can agree that there is a probability that this happening, it still goes to show how you are slandering West Papuans for the actions of a few."

You must be illiterate, boy, as I've specifically only blame the barbaric Papuan separatists for these heinous murders on Indonesian citizens, including killing native Papuan people who like Indonesia. Majority of native Papuans are peaceful people who are law-abiding Indonesian citizens. You are very foolish for slandering all normal civilised Papuan people with the barbaric separatists, just like generalising all Germans today as neo-Nazis.

Nobody is 'slandering' aboriginals, PTBI. If you could manage to take time off from your ignorant rantings and actually read the Australian news, you would find that all the reports given here of child rape among outback aboriginals are genuine. You have referred to aboriginals as a 'noble race' - obviously you have overdosed on Rousseau - there is no such thing as a 'noble race' of people.

'How barbaric and cruel you are!'

Barbaric and cruel to state the truth? I would say that the male aboriginals who are beating, raping and killing their own women and children are 'barbaric and cruel' but perhaps your definition is different.

You criticised another poster for referring to Hitler. What a hypocrite you are. Anyone reading your posts on this forum can count how many times you have called me and other posters 'Hitler' (your lack of imagination shines through) - yet its wrong for other people to make the same reference?

PS - something you obviously do not know - there is a vast difference between city aboriginals and aboriginals living in a tribal situation in remote communities. Another subject for you to research.

@dee:

LOL, don't deny your attempts to dehumanise Aborigines, dee. I've crushed all your futile denial on the dirty white genocide and theft of land against Aborigines. After this "pwning", you desperately seek to dehumanise Aborigines by generalising all of them as "barbarians" to justify your genocide and theft of land.

Well, may I add that is just despicable. You just brought your people to lower levels of infamy, yet your attempts are futile, because nothing can justify your genocides!

Your white people are famous for high sex abuse, it has been found that 28% of Australian females are sexually abused as little girls! Even your priests are famous for being child-molesters. The Aborigines are better than you, not only they never committed genocide or steal anybody's land, they are not world-class hyprocrites like whites, who dare accuse others of being sexual-abusers while 28% of Australian females (3 million females) are sexually abused as little girls!
http://www.secasa.com.au/index.php/family/11/96

You have 'crushed' nothing, PTBI - you have merely shown your own ignorance - over and over. 'Deny', 'justify' etc etc - are you joking? The use of these words says that you believe yourself to be in a position where others have to 'justify' their opinions or actions to you. Laughable. Do you have a God Complex?

'28% of Australian females are sexually abused ...'

This article also states that Indigenous women reported three times as many incidents in 12 months as compared with non-Indigenous women, proving that the reports of abuse in aboriginal communities posted here are correct. Child abuse is rampant all over the world, if you are trying to convince yourself that only 'white priests' are responsible, look at the Muslim world more closely, and at your own country.

'The Indonesian government reports that 6 to 12 million Indonesian children are involved in the worst forms of child labor and prostitution ... [some are] forced into prostitution by their own parents. In certain villages in the West Java regency there is competition to invest in and prepare children for prostitution in the cities, expecting high returns on investments'.

'People in glass houses ...', PTBI.

'Your white people are famous for high sex abuse ..'

Even more famous are the Arabs from the Middle East who still keep slaves and kidnap young white girls and boys for their harems. Many white people are involved in child abuse, but 'white' countries are the only ones to pass laws protecting children, the only ones to even question the idea of children as possessions of the parents. Australia, the US etc may not be perfect, but at least we try to evolve from medieval thinking.

Dee,

Imagine this scenario, this hypothesis….

The somewhat dull and unattractive scion of a wealthy, but devious Chinese trader family in Malaysia needs to “sow his oats” prior to his arranged marriage back in the mainland.

Of course he sexual naiveté is somewhat disconcerting to father, so he arranges a visit to one of the brothels in Jakarta where he is taken in hand by a common, but Indonesian prostitute, who prepares him with all the wiles of her trade (which were minimal anyway) – but he was stricken by apparent good appearances and took her back home as his clandestine lover until she became pregnant.

Unfortunately for her, he was found out, the arranged marriage brought forward and she was left out in the cold – a pregnant discard left to fend for herself back in the slums until she made her way back to Indonesia.

She gave birth furtively and the father, suffering from some pangs of remorse, although disowned by his family, ensured that the child was educated – but illegitimate none the less.

He exceeded at school, learning languages, but was always referred to as a bastard offspring of a prostitute but was determined to locate his father, who he had grown to hate with a irrational and unthinking vengeance, knowing all the time he was a prosperous Chinese trader.

It was not until the riots that he became a real Indonesian in the slums he developed a typical defence of adopting a national pride – maybe even got into the army, where he developed a distinct outlook that denied his Chinese parentage as a survival tool and attacked them on the Asian Boards – and got into thousands of well documented arguments for his obnoxious views, until the heat was too much – so he invented a persona and migrated to an Australian forum – where he fermented hated with his twisted logic, lies and misrepresentations.

It is amazing what a little investigation can do – along with some imagination - Sound like anyone you have come up against? You whistle – and I'll point!

@dee:

LOL, insolent people. You've been exposed as sex-abuser people with 28% of Australian females sexually abused, now you desperately try to point fingers other people to cover-up and give excuse to your people's disgraceful sex-abuser character. What pathetic hypocrites!

@Kek-O:

LOL, are you halucinating, my friend? Seeing enemies everywhere? LOL, I think you shouldn't participate in this discussion, mate. Some people are just too emotional. They shouldn't be in this forum, it's not good for their health.

K - 'Sound like anyone you have come up against?'

That's quite a story. Does this person also have a God Complex (or should that be 'Person').

PTBI - I want to offer you a great opportunity to help Australian Aboriginals. Please follow the link provided to read the background story and to see a photograph of your clients. I suggest you begin with the leader of The Evil Warriors, who seems to be amenable to reason. Good luck. And lest you feel inclined to blame the situation on white Australian culture - the aboriginals are copying black American gangsta culture.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/australias-war-zone/2006/05/22/1148150189144.html#

I'm sure you clever, humane Indonesians can come up with ways to fix this problem.

Dee- he won't take up your offer -he is all noise.
Look at his writing its full of slogans & clichés
He has no logic-no substance -and no soul
He's just a big bag of gas ( & rotten egg gas at that!)

PBTI

"Discussion" ( FOTCL ! )
PTBI you keep using the word "discussion" to describe your contribution(s).Actually it's quite inappropriate.
You see, discussion implies the exchange of 'ideas'.
You're having yourself on.
PBTI you clearly have - 'NO IDEA' ( R-O-T-F-L )
All I hear from you is a long chain of slogans & clichés

@dee:

Indeed, I pity the Aborigines. They've really suffered due to white rule. This is what happened when the whites stole their land, murder their ancestors, and completely depreciate their culture. Today, these poor people were mercilessly treated with contemptuous racism from whites like dee, who continue dehumanising them and treating them like rubbish until now. Not to mention the evil whites deliberately got them hooked with white poisons: alcohol and drugs.

There is only one solution: RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

@Horus:

LOL, so you claim to be rational, aight? We were talking about Aborigines, suddenly your response was about France during World War II. I guess that is logical in your twisted mind -_-'

What a joke.

PTBI - '..I pity the Aborigines’.

So do most Australians – why do you imagine the situation in remote communities is causing so much concern? Every country with an indigenous population has the same problems in trying to deal with tribal culture, none has found a viable answer. So perhaps you should make good on your offer to ‘help’ aboriginals.

‘.. the evil whites deliberately got them hooked with white poisons: alcohol and drugs’.

Aboriginals, like other Australians, are free to make their own choices. Or do you think they’re too stupid? (that would make you a racist). Some aboriginals have made the decision to join mainstream Australia, but many aboriginals have made the choice to drink themselves insensible every day of their lives and abuse and rape women and children. They are the ones to make this choice, white Australians did not make it for them.

‘racism from whites like dee’,

Another moron comment from a white-hating racist. You are the only racist on this forum, with your continual stupid and comical remarks about evil white people. Next you’ll be calling us ‘blue-eyed devils’.

'RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW'

Yawn. Are we allowed to take Sydney with us when we leave? You honestly imagine this would be a viable solution? I guess that shows your limited, shallow and simplistic mentality. No aboriginal I know would wish to go back to tribal life – neither would they wish to live under the benevolent rule of Indonesia – of course, Indonesian ‘immigrants’ would be on our doorstep before the last white Australian had gone – BTW, how about aboriginals with white blood, do they have to leave as well? And other non-white Australians? Do they have your permission to stay?

'what a joke' you say.

The only 'joke' on this forum is you. You should admit that you're an angry racist because the whites you hate so much have created the only liveable countries in the world today.

Dee … Looks like my doleful ditty has struck a raw nerve somewhere north perhaps?

What some people abysmally and totally fail to appreciate is that not everybody has enemies, but those who do hallucinate themselves and seem fit to cast somewhat erroneous and fallacious comments on all and sundry, yet when someone sees through their pathetic shallow personas, they attack like rabid dogs, hoping to spread some of their own venom about.

Looking at no-one in particular, it would appear that the illegitimate offspring of a diseased and syphilitic whore has found himself in a corner with no escape so often, that a venomous and apoplectic attack on all and sundry is all he can muster – a somewhat pathetic excuse for something without any knowledge whatever, hallucinating on whatever vestiges of brain remaining, diseased as it is…..

It is easy to detect this malady by the posts out of synchronisation, the grammar and spelling – but then again, maybe I did not recapitulate as well as I thought – I did forgot to account for the diseased brain, but true to form I was attacked (again – but isn’t that normal from some quarters?)

Emotion is another thing I do not lower myself to enter in – for once you equanimity is destroyed, you not only have lost the argument – you have lost all respect. Getting respect of course is not high on some peoples agenda, for again once disease has ravaged your brain, your thought processes are also deficient and confused.

Unfortunately, some also hallucinate to the point where they are actually under some false impression that I actually am addressing them, which is not the case and having plumbed the depths of such depravity like a diseased dog, pride is also non existent, and this is also shown by the continual snarling and rabid attacks on all and sundry – with not a friend in sight, which in itself a sad occasion.

Bandy words with a loser? Why should I lower my level of intelligence to below that of a tropical slum gutter – hardly!

Let’s face it PTBI, your disquiet over the position of the Aborigines has little to do with any perception that they are mistreated. Rather it stems from the deep sense of regret & frustration you have that your ancestors didn’t get their act together earlier, and get over here to claim Australia first, for themselves.

Now, if that had happened, we all know what would have been the fate of the Aborigines-don’t we!
Certainly there’d be none of this Namby-pamby talk of aid & disadvantage…
You guys would have given them one of your ‘final solutions’ –like Aceh or Timor - there’d be no need for welfare after that ..

[And had the above happened, PBTI would probably then have been the regional governors of Australis Jaya province – I can imagine him as a sort of lesser Saddam Hussein figure –with perhaps Imelda Marcos’s fetish for shoes – dressed in his uniform strutting about] ( R-O-T-F-L

K – ‘Why should I lower my level of intelligence to below that of a tropical slum gutter’

True, but I’m still getting some amusement from all those crazy demands for all evil whities to pack up and leave. Can anyone in his right mind believe in such nonsense? Imagine the scenario – John Howard announces that we are giving back the land to the aboriginals and all non-aboriginals have a month to pack and be gone. Does this include those with mixed aboriginal and white blood? How about non-white Australians (like the people of Indian or Asian descent who have been here for decades)? Will the Chinese/Aussie mayor of Darwin have to go also? And how long before the first invaders – sorry, ‘immigrants’ - from Indonesia arrive? My guess is five minutes.

I’m inclined to agree with Horus – the Indonesians are annoyed because they didn’t think to invade from the north before Cook claimed the land for Britain. Damn those whities! The aboriginals may think white settlers were bad (and many were) but I’m sure they would view us with more benevolence after an experience with the Indonesian military.

Hey there PTBI. I guess you are having trouble sleeping these past few weeks. How does it feel to have factual information go against your own point of view, PTBI? I have even thrown the fact that even the most impoverished Aborigine earns more money per year than the average Indonesian. Even if an Australian (Aboriginal or non-Aboriginal) isn't employed ANYWHERE in Australia, they still receive from government welfare about $7500 including free health care, and other services afforded to other citizens. On average, Australians earn $30,000. The average Indonesian earns about $4000 per year (or just under). Is it any wonder illegal immigrants bypass Indonesia for Australia's better life? What would they rather? The average life earning $4000 in Indonesia, or an occasionally unemployed life receiving $7500 in Australia? I understand the superior exchange rate Australia has over Indonesia, but even then it is better to be living in Australia.

Added to that is the accusation by you that 28% of Australian females are sexually abused. I don't know if you missed a decimal point between the 2 and the 8, but I believe that is incredibly false information you have there. If it were true, then there are a lot of girls keeping incredibly quiet about their experiences. Perhaps you should read a little closely to what it actually says: "One Australian study estimated that twenty-eight per cent of Australian girls and nine per cent of Australian boys had been involved in some form of sexual exploitation by an older person". What's the definition of a "girl" relating to age? Perhaps someone younger than 18, or maybe 16? Wake up, PTBI. It is a broadly conceded fact that more than half of females lose their virginity before the age of 18. I would not be surprised if 28% of those lost their virginity to a person older than they were. FFS, PTBI, get your head out of the sand!

Back to your Engrish gibberish, PTBI. Again, if you have ever done your research, Aborigines have been COMPENSATED quite generously for any wrong-doing "whites" have caused them. It isn't as though Aborigines have never attacked white people during colonisation of Australia. It's just that Europeans had the bigger, better weapons to outmatch attacks by Aborigines. I don't know about calling Eddie Mabo as "honourable", but I didn't know the man. I will take your word for it. (Pfft!) However, I did know Eddie's grandson Mario Mabo jnr, as I went to school with him in 1992-1994 (or thereabouts). If Eddie Mabo was honourable, then he would be sorely disappointed in his grandson because of the grandson's criminal record.

I like the website you provided. Getting desperate, are you, PTBI? The site clearly shows a redefinition of the word "genocide", as people know of it today. The definition the webmaster uses states that genocide in Australia was from children being removed from Aboriginal families. Now, if you bothered to do your research, the Australian government didn't spend money go about kidnapping children from loving families for the fun of it. It was to save children from abusive parents. Yes, some were taken unjustly. But the justification for the overwhelming majority of children taken certainly caused them no strife. A home, an education, and a chance at life is what these so-called "stolen Aborigines" received.

And for your infantile comment about calling me a "boy", I find that amusing. I would probably be taller than you when I was 13 year old, than you would be as an adult. It is pretty easy to understand the Indonesian girls wanting to go out with Australian men. You Indonesian guys must really lack a lot.

Hello fellow Australians, pardon my late reply due to change in internet provider.

@dee:

LOL, as I said, you should apply for the kind permission of Aborigines to stay in Australia. It is up to the benevolent wisdom of Aborigines to decide whether they are willing to allow whites or other people to live in their property Australia. If you have done nothing wrong to Aborigines as you claim, then you'll have nothing to worry, won't you?

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

@Kek-O:

LOL, unfortunately I don't get what you're trying to say, mate.

@Horus:

LOL, Indonesians have landed in Australia for centuries before the white invader Cook came. Pioneer British "explorer" Matthew Flinders encountered hundreds of Indonesian fishing boats in Darwin Harbour during his circumnavigation of Australia in 1802. They had very beneficial relationship with Aborigines, with whom they intermarry and trade with. However, we Indonesians never show any interest of settling, since there is nothing but desert and arid rocks in northern Australia. Our racial cousins the Maoris, who originated from Indonesia, however, managed to settle in the better pastures of New Zealand.

Our utter condemnation of white theft of land and genocide against Aborigines is motivated by our pure merciful concern for the pitiful condition of Aborigines. None of your slanders and insults can deter us from this duty.

PS. your comments on East Timor is ironic, as it is clear the uncivilised East Timorese are currently very busy killing each other and destroying their own country by attacking hospital patients, murdering wounded policemen, and burning babies to death.

@PJT:

LOL, calm down boy. I'm actually 190 cms tall, but no worries, you are still a tall pretty boy.

And yes, the fact of white genocide against Aborigines and widespread sexual abuse against females in Australia is undeniable. Your denials won't work, boy. Who are you trying to fool with your nonsense talk? People are not idiots, they were not born yesterday.

"It isn't as though Aborigines have never attacked white people during colonisation of Australia"

There is nothing wrong with Aboriginal resistence to an illegal white invasion. The Maoris killed so many British settlers and soldiers during the Anglo-Maori Wars, they forced the whites to give them equal rights and respect for their culture. The Aborigines were not successful enough in killing whites as Maoris, that is why they suffered so horribly today.

"And yes, the fact of white genocide against Aborigines and widespread sexual abuse against females in Australia is undeniable."

Wake the hell up already, PTBI. There are 400,000 aborigines in Australia today. There were 300,000 aborigines on Australia before white people came along. An estimated 5000 tribes spread out across Australia. Yes, there was an ATTEMPT at genocide against the aborigines by the British government back in the 1800s. If you agree on that, then we are agreed on something. But that stopped before the 1901 federation of Australia. After that, Aborigines were a protected people, by the *Australian* government. You want to blame someone, go talk to Queen Victoria's dead corpse.

And for that "koorie" website, if saying that removing aboriginal children from *abusive* or even *third world living conditions* is seen as a "inhumane thing", then I couldn't begin to fathom how you would find it excellent and a "humane thing" it would be to just leave the aborigines alone in the wilderness to die of starvation, disease, and neglect. I can't be bothered proving that to you. So, why not come to Australia and live in some remote aboriginal settlement away from "white people" influence for a few weeks, and judge for yourself?

Again, you imply that 28% of Australian girls are sexually molested. Have another read through your submitted weblink, and try to consider the context of the information. Most girls lose their virginity consensually by the time they turn 18. The majority of these girls have sex with some older male (as would be logical). That would explain the "exploited by someone older" context. However, some girls in Australia think that having someone committing taciturn assault constitutes sexual assault. It is hard to determine if someone is making genuine claims of abuse, or are looking for attention. Either way, there would be millions of women out in the streets protesting, boycotting, or making enough noise that the federal government would do something about it.

PTBI – ‘we Indonesians never show any interest of settling, ..’

Who’s sorry now.. That was an interesting Freudian slip.

‘ .. uncivilised East Timorese are killing each other ..’.

Perhaps they learned their methods from the Indonesians. Between 1975 and 1999, approximately 180,000 civilian Timorese died at the hands of Indonesian occupying forces. Indonesian soldiers used napalm, chemical weapons and poisoned water supplies. They carried out massacres, death marches, summary executions, public beheadings, the mutilation of genitalia and the burying and burning alive of victims. They cut off ears and genitals to display to relatives. Thousands of women were raped. Along with sexual assault, starvation was used by the Indonesian military as a weapon of war. So If I were Indonesian, I hope I would have the decency to remain silent on this subject.

‘Our utter condemnation of ... genocide against Aborigines ..’

The only thing inherited from our ancestors are genes (and sometimes money) – we do not inherit our ancestor’s behaviour or beliefs, neither are we responsible for actions carried out in the past and therefore unchangeable. Your rants against present day Australians are meaningless in any context.

‘It is up to the benevolent wisdom of Aborigines to decide …'

I should be ok then. I have never persecuted or killed an aboriginal; never given an aboriginal poison or recklessly removed an aboriginal child from his/her family (as govt. authorities have been accused of doing in the past); never robbed or displayed violence towards aboriginals, although members of my family and several people I know have received this treatment from aboriginals. However, all this is academic, since the scenario will never happen. Australians are here to stay. We built the country, we intend to keep it. Forever.

PJT – the phone-in that the 28% is based upon is somewhat shaky, but why do you feel you must defend Australia against the rantings of a person whose own govt. admits that its country has one of the worst problems in the world concerning child prostitution? Pot calling the kettle black, methinks.

@PJT:

"..to just leave the aborigines alone in the wilderness to die of starvation, disease, and neglect."

LOL, what a despicable arrogance that can only be found from whites. Aborigines have lived for 50,000 years in Australia before the first white invader Cook came. They have functional societies, they may be simple but they successfully use the land to satisfy all their material and spiritual needs. Unfortunately the arrival of genocidal whites completely destroyed their world in the cruelest manner.

LOL, the study clearly found Australian women are sexually exploited as little girls. You make joke, trying to make fairy tale the females have voluntary sex. The truth is, 28% of Australian females are sexually abused by older men as little children. Deal with this sad fact.

LOL, I suggest you read "Blood in the Wattle" which chronicles massacres of Aborigines by whites, the killings certainly do not end in 1901.

@dee:

"They carried out massacres, death marches, summary executions, public beheadings, the mutilation of genitalia and the burying and burning alive of victims. They cut off ears and genitals to display to relatives."

Indeed this is what the barbaric whites did to poor Aborigines, as testified by fellow forummer saintfletcher, whose grandfather saw evil whites shot Aborigines dead for sport.

"Indonesian soldiers used napalm, chemical weapons and poisoned water supplies."

LOL, what a stupid lie, Indonesian military until now never have any napalm or chemical weapons.

This is typical dirty tactic of idiot Australians, blame Indonesia as scapegoat everytime the unviable "country" of East Timor collapse and became failed state. Let Australia pick-up the expensive tab each time this Southeast Asian Haiti collapse in the future.

"However, all this is academic, since the scenario will never happen."

I beg to differ. Aborigines' population has increased exponentially from near-extinction in 1930s to 400,000 (2% of population) today and this growth is continuing. Within a few decades, Aborigines will have enough numbers to became the thorn in the whites' flesh. Eventually, Aborigines will get what they want: return of Australia to their hands.

PTBI - " ..28% of Australian females are sexually abused by older men as little children.'

You got these 'stats' from one dubious telephone survey. Any other proof of your assertion? I notice you never mention the appalling record of Indonesia on child abuse and prostitution. The Indonesian stats do not come from a shaky telephone survey, but from your own govt. Why do you have nothing to say about this fact?

'what a stupid lie, Indonesian military until now never have any napalm or chemical weapons.'

Of course not, the Indonesian military are angels in human form, I'm sure... Is the part about raping women a lie also? There is plenty of evidence of Indonesian atrocities in East Timor and plenty of witnesses - that's why the Indonesian govt. is so angry, but they should have realised that you cant keep this kind of behaviour a secret any more.

'I beg to differ. Aborigines' population has increased exponentially from near-extinction in 1930s to 400,000 (2% of population)... Aborigines will get what they want: return of Australia to their hands.'

Hahahaa - thanks PTBI, you made my day. You should do standup comedy in your spare time if you truly believe that 2% of the Australian population will one day rule the country. In reply to your wishful thinking, I will repeat:

We built the country, we intend to keep it. Forever.

"You got these 'stats' from one dubious telephone survey."

LOL, it is clear 28% of Australian women got sexually abused, now you make comedy slandering the honest report as "shaky telephone survey". What a pervert people, you enjoy raping your own innocent little girls, and after your lust are satisfied, you deny your sins!

"Of course not, the Indonesian military are angels in human form"

LOL I don't believe in angels. And yes, Indonesian military never has any napalm or chemical weapons.

Indeed there are plenty of evidence of genocide against Aborigines by whites. That is why you are so angry because I've exposed your atrocities. You should know that these kind of genocidal behavior cannot be kept a secret anymore.

"We built the country, we intend to keep it. Forever."

What goes around, comes around. You will be dispossed of your land just like you dispossessed the Aborigines in the past. Eventually Aborigines with their high birthrate will regain Australia.

RETURN AUSTRALIA TO ABORIGINES NOW!!

PTBI - 'A total of 6,677 women aged between 18 and 69 years participated in the telephone survey between December 2002 and June 2003, and provided information about ... both physical and sexual violence. Women .. were asked to recount their experiences of violence (including threats of violence) by current and former male partners, other males known to them including family members, acquaintances and friends, and their experiences of violence by strangers. They were also asked to recall instances of childhood violence and abuse.'

And from this you arrive at the conclusion that over 1/4 of Australian women are sexually molested? But still no comment on child abuse and prostitution in Indonesia -- why do you have nothing to say on that subject?

I am not 'angry' PTBI, nor do I feel guilty - you should stop projecting your own anger and hatred onto others and look honestly at the things you write - irrational, simplistic and full of racism and hate against white Australians, besides ranting on about subjects you know nothing about - like aboriginals.

'Eventually Aborigines with their high birthrate will regain Australia.'

I imagine you know the aboriginal expression 'Dreamtime' (since you are an expert on Australian aboriginals). Your statement about high birthrates etc. are a perfect example of Dreamtime thinking.

PTBI - 'what a stupid lie, Indonesian military until now never have any napalm or chemical weapons.'

Yes, every report is lying, I'm sure ...

UN Verdict on East Timor

'Napalm and chemical weapons, which poisoned the food and water supply, were used by Indonesian soldiers against the East Timorese in the brutal invasion and annexation of the half-island to Australia's north, according to the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation report. The violence culminated in the 1999 reprisals for the independence vote, when the Indonesian military and its militia proxies rampaged through East Timor, killing as many as 1500 people and destroying most of the towns.'

To quote your own words:

'You should know that these kind of genocidal behavior cannot be kept a secret anymore'.

No, it can't, can it? If it could, we would never have known about Indonesian behaviour in East Timor - too many pesky witnesses and victims, too many reporters and UN/Human Rights observers.

'The report also relies on Indonesian military papers and intelligence from international sources. It documents a litany of massacres, thousands of summary executions of civilians and the torture of 8500 East Timorese - with horrific details of public beheadings, the mutilation of genitalia, the burying and burning alive of victims, use of cigarettes to burn victims, and ears and genitals being lopped off to display to families.'

Indonesian military authorities made the same mistake as the Nazis you so often mention - they put it in writing.

@dee:

"I imagine you know the aboriginal expression 'Dreamtime' (since you are an expert on Australian aboriginals). Your statement are a perfect example of Dreamtime thinking."

Your evil is unlimited. Not only you deny your genocidaire heritage and try to hide the truth about the perverted hobby of Australians to sexually-abuse their own children, now you cruelly mocked the honorable Aboriginal tradition of dreamtime. How this clearly shows your contempt towards the real Australians, the Aborigines.

"Yes, every report is lying, I'm sure "

Indeed, most accusations of "HR-violations" done by Indonesia in East Timor are lies, they're just considered toilet-paper by most of the world. Indonesia is elected by 163 countries into the new UN Human Rights Council. Australia is not elected. As you can see, most of the world trust Indonesia as their protector of human rights more than Australia. Nobody put any value into the so-called reports you mentioned. Deal with it.

Ahhhh Dee, Dee ....Dee

Just when you thopught it was safe to venture out into the world again....

Oh well some of us are just meant to bear heavy loads :-)

No doubt you have sen the report where Indonesia's downtrodden local inhabitants have been doing what what most of the white Australians have been accused of doing ... nothing like a bit of rape and torture of little girls, but I am certain that they have been watching the news reports of the indonesian Army doing what the Indonesian army does best.... you know a little rape here and there, a few murders here and there - all in the name of good management of other annexed countries as against their own degrading practices back home.....

Forests and financial crisis – five facts...........

When the financial crisis hit Indonesia, industrial pollution rose by 15 per cent while industrial production fell by 18 per cent.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) estimates that an additional 20 per cent of the population in Indonesia and 12 per cent in both South Korea and Thailand will fall into poverty.

Crisis-hit countries Russia, Brazil and Indonesia rank first, third and fifth respectively among the world’s nations in the amount of remaining frontier forest – totaling 47 per cent of the world’s ancient forests.

In order to meet targets set by the IMF, the Brazilian Government has slashed spending on environmental programmes by two thirds.

Under IMF pressure, the Government of Indonesia lifted a log-export ban and cut the log- export tax from 200 per cent to 30 per cent.

Face the Facts/Friends of the Earth US
http://www.stillpictures.com/index.htm
(Looks like the US is not really in accord with your earstwhile friend... but then again sometimes crap really happens?)

I love how Vanstone flagrantly contradicted the <a href="http://www.pm.gov.au">lying rodent</a> by admitting the new refugees policy was aimed at appeasing the Indonesians...

I don't think PTB(Chinese-Indonesian) is such a bad guy. Just a bit delirious under the pressure of his own failed country. I can't believe that he actually thinks that Indonesia has become a great country, all by itself. I won't even consider Indonesia "great", unless you want to call it a great JOKE. Think about all the aid that Indonesia gets from around the world (especially include the tsunami aid) and you will think otherwise about Indonesia's economic capacity. You are not a bad guy, PTBI. Just stupid.