Andrew,

I don't think that the real issue is being confronted.

We keep insisting on children attending Schools that sometimes, perhaps often, that they don't want to attend or that they don't fit into, culturally or in terms of their families' principles, philosophy, values or convictions. This is certainly the case for many indigenous peoples in Australia and around the world.

There is some reference in the posts to the parents of indigenous children not having had much education. This still represents a denial and a gross misunderstanding of what learning and teaching is all about, especially, but not only from an indigenous context, and only copies the gravest mistakes that were made from the time that New South Wales was proclaimed. We denied to ourselves that indigenous people were educated, and knew far more about many things in this country of nations than we still know. How many Australians know the various nations and languages that existed for thousands of years or still exist? That knowledge was and is gained not from teachers in classrooms, but in other ways - that is still important, even vital today and for our future.

Help people make the education institutions that they want, instead of making the people fit Schools. You don't need to pay people to go somewhere they like going and that their parents support. Conversely, they are likely to want to contribute energy or money.

Regards, Derek Sheppard

Derek Sheppard wrote:
Help people make the education institutions that they want, instead of making the people fit Schools.

Derek, one problem with this approach is that people usually don't know what they are capable of, so they will often settle for the lowest level that they consider that they can achieve. One of the goals of education is to help people see past their and their parents' experience, to grow into the world.

As for Aboriginal people having much knowledge and 'education' about this country as a result of their long occupation of it, yes, sure, but no-one lives in that figurative country any more, that country now only exists in myth. Even 'traditional' Aboriginals have incorporated much that is not traditional in their lives. The friction between traditional and non-traditional can be seen in the arguments that some Aboriginal people have used to assert their traditional rights for hunting and fishing, using modern technology. (Should they be able to have it both ways?)

We do not live in the same world as we lived in even 50 years ago, let alone 5000 years. So much of the traditional knowledge is of the same value as most technology from even 100 years ago - valuable for a museum perhaps, but not the best way of living today, we look with curiosity at the Amish of Pensyvlania, and they are only living 200 years in the past. If people want to live as museum pieces - then they should have the right to do so, but then they should not complain about a lack of education and the like. People can chose to reject the standards, laws and ideals of modern society, but they should not be surprised if they are then in turn rejected by modern society.

Hamlet,

So, in your opinion, who knows what's better for people - the State, education bureaucrats, teachers, well meaning white people? And you obviously believe that, because in your opinion, people settle for the lowest level, that society under the existing 160 year old education system is the highest level we can acheive? Have you noticed what's happened with all the other "fixes" implemented by well meaning people who are not from the community to be fixed? Has the health, mortality and education rates improved in indigenous communities?

Why do you believe that people cannot see the world around them and work out for themselves what is best for them and that they can't and won't do better for themselves? People have that capacity, and do this all the time, parhaps imperceptibly to others - they only need to be freed of the constraints imposed by other people. By remaining disempowered and not in control of their own destinies, people will remain stuck and unable to move forward. Perhaps you believe that is how people ought to remain, and that someone else will resolve their issues for them? Do you think this is how we and our society have developed?

Traditional knowledge has survived the onslaught and impacts. People haven't remained the same as 50 or 5,000 years ago. They have changed. We have changed. There is much they can learn and we can learn from them, that would benefit, at the very least, the environment, business, science and people. We're so accustomed to telling others how they should be doing things and living their lives (learnt from our education system), we need to learn instead to ask questions, be quiet and listen.

Derek Sheppard

Derek

Of course people can chose for themselves, but when that choice causes them problems living with the rest of the world, through an acceptance within that community of poor health, poor education, domestic violence, substance abuse and general lawlessness then they cannot blame the rest of us.

I say an acceptance, because change must come from within a community.

I compare two Aboriginal communities in Sydney - Lap Perouse and Redfern. La Perouse has higher rates of education, employment and health, and I have been told by members of that community how much they resent the Redfern community and its lawlessness.

So, you take your choice, you deal with the consequences.

People - any people - can choose lifestyles and ways of spending their money and other community assets. If I spend my money and time wastefully, then the consequences are on me.

Sadly, again non-Indigenous people are showing their ignorance of the need for Indigenous people to determine what they wish to do with their future.

Having been victims of an illegal invasion and occupation they have been seen not be be able to look after their future (never know you mob might leave after a couple of 100 yrs just like India and other colonised countries). So, from day one they are called savages, told they have to become white, when that failed they are told, you are not entitled to your own country back nor the right (which every Australian has) to be compensated for the destruction of social order, language, knowledge, history and your mother (land).

Oh, but just accept it and move on angry young black man. How come as soon as an non-Indigenous person is victimised, ie, Corby, the two (not names yet) Cronulla lifeguards, and numberous others who in my anger I cannot think of, it is unjust or un-Australian.

I live in North Queensland and when an Aboriginal boy is a victim of a racial hit and run or a young man is obviously murdered in custody (Palm Island) you have more chance of this community voicing their disgust over a couple of kittens abused by a couple of army boys.

Please note: Can a tree be part tree? No, Indigenous, Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander, Koori or other terms please, using 'part' is insulting. Australians, mostly white, never have to justify their whiteness so why do we have justify our depth of blackness...

Back to work,

What a load of codswallop - didn't think I'd be resorting to this type of low level comment but ....
has the writer thought this through?
Give 13 year olds or any teen a $2,000/ year incentive to go to school and let them spend it, not on saving a nest egg for their future education but on whatever takes their fancy? At 13 my money would have been spent on clothes, movies, records and treats. In a remote community what would a 13 year old spend money on to relieve the boredom?
In Bath, England, we met a NZ educator who had spent five years teaching in a remote aboriginal community. He succeeded in getting his kids to attend school and the results were high achieving kids. How? By not cowtailing to the NLC or any local who wanted him removed because he insisted parents paid to perform jobs in the school turn up to work or they would not receive payment. He bucked an entrenched system that set a poor example to children. When his parents led by example, the children followed and everyone benefited. Call this method whatever you like, but this will work far better than the lollipop method advocated in the article.