Are there any ideas about indigenous Australians that does not involve simply throwing money at them?

Andrew, Nice idea but why not extend it, at least for Indigenous people in remote communities such as outstations? Pay them to move to larger population centres where they might actually find jobs once they've been to school. Many of these remote communities only exist because of government money, and you can predict how much they're likely to cost the public purse over the next fifty years. So why not use public money to "buy them out" of the welfare system?

Don't we already have a system called Abstudy? I am not familiar with the details but perhaps it needs to be increased and rely more on actual attendance rather than just enrolment to act as an incentive.

Andrew

If throwing money at the problem would be the solution, then it would'nt be a problem with all the money that has been thrown at it over the years.

There are actions that can already be taken should children not attend school. Unfortunately authorities just won't take the action and truency is more or less forgotten about.

Until aboriginal people themselves regocnize that education and school attendance is a matter for them to worry about and not for others to do it for them, this problem will continue.

Typical white thinking.

This is the most absurd strategy i have ever seen.

The problem lies not with the kids, it is the pressure from the surrounding structure of family, friends and the like who disenchant many of these kids.

Their grandfathers and grandmothers have had little education, many of these do not place or see value in education and many have been subjected to much having to attempt integrate with white society in much tougher times.

The parents who are often also engulfed in problems and many of whom have had little education see no real value in education, and combined with many being in appauling conditions in Ghettos and having various social problems how is a child supposed to know right from wrong, and how is a child expected to see the world in the manner in which the white kids do.

It lies with the generations before them who were mistreated and now know little of what can be achieved out in the world, therefore effecting their children.

in 5 generations i am sure this problem has the ability to be solved without money, and without teaching kids to get on the government gravy train from day 1.

the solution is in educating the adults, then the children will have role models they can see, feel and touch every day, then they will naturally follow. A cathy freeman poster does not cut it in the Aboriginal room of the school.

I am appauled you would even consider this option, and this is why white people with little real understanding worsen the situation with best interests at heart.

Put your $10 per day into teaching the adults at tafe if you have to, dont give it to kids and disadvantage them further.

I am all for promoting attendance in schools and education being the answer, so why then are we using money as an incentive, shouldn't education and opportunity be incentive enough? Where do we draw the line? do we pay asylum seekers and refugees to go to school, do we pay the underprivileged average joe bloggs out in the burbs or the country who can't afford school clothes to even wear to school? It just doesn't seem right to keep throwing money at this minority group as the solution to all their problems. Paying children to go to school just isn't the answer.

The idea is OK, but you have the direction of the money flow wrong. Abstudy money should disappear when truancy reaches 10%, & the $10 per day should come out of the parents welfare, once truancy reaches 20%. This would have some effect, very quickly.
I am sick to death of the idea of entitlement. My entitlement was to work for 40 years to keep my family, plus 1/2 a public servant, [under worked, & over paid], & 1/2 a welfare recipient, [just over paid, no work].
Welfare should not be a hand out. It should be the opportunity , to earn, at minimum wage, an income, for those who can find no other way of earning that income. That should go for us pensioners too. Most of us could still organise.
Its not as if there is not plenty to do, even if it was just clean up the roads, & national parks.
Hasbeen

Hi all,

Some great comments from an interesting article.

Incentives always work better than threats.

I recall getting my ABSEG check every Thursday and thinking how that $3 (years 8-10) or $6 dollars (years 11-12) would benefit my afternoon at the corner store rather than how it would keep me in school.

In 1998 The Liberal Government changed the ABSTUDY awards and as a result %16 of Indigenous students did not enrol or re-enrol in Universities in the following year. The final report on this matter has still not been released and prelim report said that it was probably caused due to career change options. If %16 of non-Indigenous kids failed to go to University, I bet the higher education sector would be greatly concerned.

The "performance payment" or "no school no pool" approach that federal governments are wanting to impose on some communities in far north Queensland will fail because they still do not address why students/parents devalue school. As Chris Sarra (Former Cherbourg School Principal) recently stated that they turned Cherbourg around with community and children involvement without touching one welfare check so why do government officials believe their own staff and promote incentives rather than threats to Centrelink payments.

$282 million of Indigenous DEST funding was not spent last year. Why? Without consultation or discussion, the Federal government changed the process that Parents and Schools used to access this funding. Therefore very limited number of students were entitled to access the funds. Not to mentioned that no guidelines were given to explain to parents or schools on how to apply.

I suggest that incentives be increased and that a review of the economical and social conditions of families be taken into consideration. Surely intergovernment agencies can meet to arrange this or can they only operate well in crisis ie. Innisfail and Cyclone Larry? Well hello, Indigenous health, housing and education have been hit by a cyclone every year...its called the Federal Budget!

Back to work!

I like this idea. The money is quite a small amount. My guess is that if only 11 instead 12 out of the 15 kids in the class became alcoholics you'd get the money back in dole and medicare savings in the decade after they leave school. (Though that is still 11 too many)

Obviously it is not the complete answer to a succesful integration of indigenous Australians into the mainstream society. It is however a new approach and it seems that what we are doing now is not very effective.

If it works the scheme could be extended to all the underclasses in Australia.

I realise that 10 bucks a day is not far of the old age pension and many older people who have worked hard all their life may find it unfair.

As a side effect we are investing in education. If we as a nation want to remain competitive in a globalised economy we need to have a well-educated workforce.

I don't know how we execute a successful integration. Perhaps what they are doing in Cherbourg is working. It would not be something that happens overnight but every journey starts with a single step.

PS Is there a direct measure of integration or is it derived from other (mostrly negative) statistics such as life expectancy, employment and incarceration rates?

Where do they come from - these dreamy-eyed do-gooders?

Yes, wouldn't it be nice if Aborigines and Torres Straight Islanders were an equal, respected and integrated part of Australian society?

Yes, it would. And nobody would be more pleased than myself. They are beautiful people. So why aren't they?

It's partly because of whitey meddling and of throwing money to them. But it's mostly because of a lack of motivation on their own behalf - and frankly, I don't blame them. Who'd want to be a part of whitey's crumbling western culture? It sucks. Why go to whitey school and learn whitey ways to participate in whitey's rat race?

If I had the choice, I'd rather go fishing.

Motivation is what it's all about. Money can motivate some people, but not all. Motivation by money works with whitey and I imagine would help fill up empty chairs in remote schools, but nothing would be achieved unless individual kids each found the motivation to learn.

While whitey schools continue to teach leftist nonsense specific to academic whitey careers, there is no way your normal decent Aboriginal kid is going to get the motivation to learn. But yeah, if you paid them, they'd turn up - most of the time.

But who wants to learn the tripe that's served up at school's these days? Make schooling relevant to kid's existence and they'll be hanging around school like flies around a dead dog. Motivation not money is the answer. And in particular, motivation aimed squarely at the kids concerned. Spend the money on schools and motivational campaigns if you have to spend money. And syllabus overhauls.

If an aboriginal child lives in a dysfunctional home/camp/community all the money in the world is not going to help that child grasp what education is all about. If they go home from school to nothing but alcoholic parents, no proper food,clothing, shelter, nothing is going to help that child.
Going to a well run boarding school would lift them out of that squalor and give them some idea that there is a life worth living out there and it is attainable.
Motivation must be seen as well as preached. Otherwise it is not real.

The trick to getting anyone to willingly or voluntarily do anything is to make it appealing to them. We need to ask ourselves what we are doing to encourage students to want to be at school and want to learn. Money is nice but it would be better spent on making the kids want to come to school by improving the amenities. The no school no pool rules have been asked for, and seem to be working in some communities and this may also be a good strategy overall. I also like the idea of being able to undertake TAFE classes while still at school. Widening the curriculum can only be a good thing.

Students who say “school is boring” should be something that parents and teachers take as a warning sign rather than a student being lazy or not wanting to learn, and as a reply saying “it’s boring yes deal with it life isn’t about fun”. As adults we would never put up with a job that is boring, unfulfilling, and totally out of our realm of interest, we attempt at the very least to get a new job. Why should we expect our children to put up with that for 12 or 13 years? Because we had to?

I haven't come across a student (Indigenous or not) that will not come to class if it is interesting, relevant and fun. Having a family who is supportive though, I do admit will help immensely. Believe it or not I can make basic and so called “boring” school work fun, but I need to be allowed to do so in the curriculum, have the resources and a supportive staff. And I am not talking about relaxing the evaluation of students so they all “get over the bar” either. It just takes a little thinking outside the square, which in the conformist rules riddled school education system takes a lot of teacher driven (as opposed to school finances and political ideaology driven) hard work.

Andrew, I'm not sure what planet you live on because this already takes place. And it isn't working is it ?

My kids want to know why they can't get free camp, $10 a day to spend at the canteen and free school uniforms. Coming from a low income family some things are just beyond us on one wage with three kids. The only thing that your 'solution' will cause is more racism.

The reason aboriginal kids don't attend school is because the teachers, principals, governments are frightened to death of being called racists if they enforce the same laws that apply to white kids.

Back to the drawing board Andrew ..... I have a great solution - how about we just treat everyone as Australians, where the same laws apply to everyone, where everyone gets the same amount of money without fear of the much loved Koori word of racism rearing its ugly head.

Alison.

When Indigenous communities own and control their own schools can we throw away band-aid ideas such as this.

Less that 2% of Indigenous kids attend a school owned and controlled by their community.

School governance and ownership has been completely overlooked in state school systems for Indigenous people and communities.

Policy over the last 30 years has been focused on participation - but passive attendance. This is particularly so in remote communities where staff turn-over is rapid and teacher continuity is minimal.

Passive welfare and passive participation in schools are in theory inherently linked.

Even where schools are enjoying high attendance the outcomes in literacy and numeracy remain low and unchanged.

This raises that universal questions (that is mostly unanswered) -

"Education for what"? and how long will community schools in remote areas be used as laboratories for quasi educational theorists (bureaucrats) and their quick fix-it new-bewt programs and buzz words.

The whole issue is certainly a lot more complex than this good willed yet under researched piece of opinion suggests.

How about parents and children attending school and if they don't,no social security cheque.There is no need to bribe them with extra payments.

I've worked closely with Koori kids and families for the past 8 years in a town where it was difficult to find one Koori person employed outside the local Aboriginal Cooperative. The reasons stem mainly from lack of family background in employment. We set up a program a school to 'scaffold' support for students to learn about and get into the work place. We had excellent support and understanding from some local business people. But the main factor behind the success were fantastic mentors who could spend 'real' time with the kids and potential employers. In less than six months we had five students in mainstream part-time work, another 5 who had had some type of work experience and all the younger kids coming up asking when they could join the program. The program has made it much easier to keep Koori kids in education as they begin to see the possibility of real outcomes.
Ongoing support was and is needed but it decreases as the kids become more confident and as the Indigenous community becomes more knowledgeable about the world of work. The flow on effect on attitude has been quite amazing. Parents genuinely want their kids to succeed - what they often lack is the confidence and knowledge to identify, work towards and access opportunities. The pride on three of the boys faces when they brought new bikes to school that they had purchased with their wages would be enough to satisfy the worst of the cynics.
Unfortunately programs like this do cost money and, despite what many of the contributors to this forum seem to think, it is very difficult to access. Very little Indigenous money actually gets to where it is most needed.

The scheme doesn't go far enough.

Aboriginal health is terrible, with mortality rates and high levels of major conditions such as diabetes. Perhaps we should pay Aboriginal people to visit the doctor, say, $200 a visit, once a month, with an additional $100 a visit if suggested by the doctor.

And while they are there seeing the doctor, as a way of trying to deal wth chronic substance abuse, pay a Aboriginal patient an additional $200 if they are able to provide a clean urine specimen.

In terms of other areas of Aboriginal health and welfare, perhaps organise community kitchens, where Aboriginal people can be given quality, healthy food for free, and as an extra 'sweetener' pay the parents of children brought in for meals either cash, or vouchers later able to be redeemed for consumer goods such as TVs, or even cars.

The bottom line, as shown by the need for such schemes as paying Aboriginal children to go to school, is that if members of that community show such little regard to education, health and welfare, then they have to be bribed into the 21st century.

This could be sold as an idea to Aboriginal people under the perspective of reciprocity, that is, if someone else has what you want, even if they have worked for it, you are entitled to it. Reciprocity is a well established part of Aboriginal culture. Lets make it work for everyone.

Ahh Alison (Freethinker)

As an Aboriginal parent I would love to know that my child will get a free camp, $10 dollars a day spending money and cheap school uniforms but I would trade it all in for 20 years of life expectancy in a flash. In fact, sign me up for both, as it will (in a few centuries)account for the millions of stolen wages each state government took from my grandparents.

You cannot treat everyone like an Australian because us mob who are not white keep getting told that we aren't. Man what would I pay to be treated as an equal to my white friends, do a google on "Peggy Macintosh" and 'whiteness' to find out about what it is like to be part of the power group in this country.

Better yet, read the paper, if ATSIC board members said that didn't recall or know what happened to $300 million dollars of funding (ie Cole inquiry) you and other "Australians" would call for their blood. Yet our crime minister and his innocent criminals can walk away.

Instead of getting angry at the $10/week to about 140,000 growing Indigenous kids, cry over what the government has done to the $300 million.

Back to work!

A few years back, we employed a nice young lady, of about 18 years. She had a lovely suntanned complexion, but, not being much good at things racial, I only discovered 2 months later, that she was part aboriginal.
This was when we discovered that her "uncles" were comming to take her home from work. Of course they only came on pay day, & once they had her pay packet, it was the pub they went to.
We had to pay into her bank account, & then keep her bank book, at work for her to stop this. We also had to have a few words with said "uncles" along the way.
When she moved into her own flat, we paid the the rent for her, direct from her pay, so she did not have to carry the money.
If aboriginal welfare agencies worth the money we pay for them, they would prevent these problems, & not leave it for the well meaning public, like us, to bumble through.
Hasbeen

personal experience with my local high school has shown me that its not the kids its the schools, the teachers and the system which is failing our kids.

the policy spiels and one-liners all sound and look good but putting them into action is a great deal harder and because of that harder to implement than write it all amounts to lots of hot air blowing around the place.

is it any wonder that so many aboriginal kids are not staying in the education system. i know how to talk the buracrat speak and handle myself amongst a wide variety of people and am not easily intimidated but fronting up to the school office or discussion with a teacher is a trying thing. patronising dribble, over enunciating conversation and or minimal explanation is iritating to me but i recognise that to a sister or brother who may not be as confident it can be a daunting deterent.

more often than not schools could and ought to do more but the too hard basket doesnt get dealt with very often and when it does its more of a toss than a sort.

Hasbeen, actually you're quite adept at things racial.

.....oh, Ranier, leave out the censorship bit for Hasbeen will you? Can you or can't you show some goodwill to the hasty scribblers on this site? Don't you think there is any "well meaning public" out here?

C'mon...My sister-in-law spent a considerable time keeping her pay from her Gamilaroi husband so he wouldn't waste it on the pokies or give it away. Now she has remarried to a man who doesn't get pissed and hit her and doesn't gamble.

Of course, in your tiny little world this strange new husband, a mature, educated, successful man of Anglo-Awabakal heritage doesn't exist, there are only useful stereotype figures which we must not question ..... Shhhhhh... careful ... we are not worthy to make comment. Puke.

It's that very attitude that everything in this world is 'racial' that makes non-Aboriginal people too scared to ask a woman at a bus stop if she's okay

Hi 2deadly,

Perhaps you should move where I live :-)

Many of my friends are either married to part Kooris or part Koori themselves. They are involved in the mentoring programs at the local primary and high schools and do a great deal of good to encourage Koori kids to learn and stay within the education system. They are also very aware that paying/blackmailing the families isn't the way to go. The parents have a tendency to spend the dollars on themselves rather than the kids anyway, as do the white folks with their back to school money from the government. They have also restructured their local council (formerly aspa) so that people aren't in the business of helping only for the rewards they get (aboriginal housing - example).

Whereabouts do you live, if you don't mind me asking ?

I'm not angry over the money they get, I'm angry that not every Australian child gets it.

With all due respect, I think the stolen generation has been done to death now. We can't move forward to a better Australia/Life if we continually look back at the past.

Thanks Ro, always ready to be told how to think about these things ..I'm still learning...and you're right, that lady at the Griffith university bustop was there so long because people were too scared to ask her if she was dying.,,,not because they thought she was a drunk ..cos no-one thinks like that do they

Andrew,

I don't think that the real issue is being confronted.

We keep insisting on children attending Schools that sometimes, perhaps often, that they don't want to attend or that they don't fit into, culturally or in terms of their families' principles, philosophy, values or convictions. This is certainly the case for many indigenous peoples in Australia and around the world.

There is some reference in the posts to the parents of indigenous children not having had much education. This still represents a denial and a gross misunderstanding of what learning and teaching is all about, especially, but not only from an indigenous context, and only copies the gravest mistakes that were made from the time that New South Wales was proclaimed. We denied to ourselves that indigenous people were educated, and knew far more about many things in this country of nations than we still know. How many Australians know the various nations and languages that existed for thousands of years or still exist? That knowledge was and is gained not from teachers in classrooms, but in other ways - that is still important, even vital today and for our future.

Help people make the education institutions that they want, instead of making the people fit Schools. You don't need to pay people to go somewhere they like going and that their parents support. Conversely, they are likely to want to contribute energy or money.

Regards, Derek Sheppard

Derek Sheppard wrote:
Help people make the education institutions that they want, instead of making the people fit Schools.

Derek, one problem with this approach is that people usually don't know what they are capable of, so they will often settle for the lowest level that they consider that they can achieve. One of the goals of education is to help people see past their and their parents' experience, to grow into the world.

As for Aboriginal people having much knowledge and 'education' about this country as a result of their long occupation of it, yes, sure, but no-one lives in that figurative country any more, that country now only exists in myth. Even 'traditional' Aboriginals have incorporated much that is not traditional in their lives. The friction between traditional and non-traditional can be seen in the arguments that some Aboriginal people have used to assert their traditional rights for hunting and fishing, using modern technology. (Should they be able to have it both ways?)

We do not live in the same world as we lived in even 50 years ago, let alone 5000 years. So much of the traditional knowledge is of the same value as most technology from even 100 years ago - valuable for a museum perhaps, but not the best way of living today, we look with curiosity at the Amish of Pensyvlania, and they are only living 200 years in the past. If people want to live as museum pieces - then they should have the right to do so, but then they should not complain about a lack of education and the like. People can chose to reject the standards, laws and ideals of modern society, but they should not be surprised if they are then in turn rejected by modern society.

Hamlet,

So, in your opinion, who knows what's better for people - the State, education bureaucrats, teachers, well meaning white people? And you obviously believe that, because in your opinion, people settle for the lowest level, that society under the existing 160 year old education system is the highest level we can acheive? Have you noticed what's happened with all the other "fixes" implemented by well meaning people who are not from the community to be fixed? Has the health, mortality and education rates improved in indigenous communities?

Why do you believe that people cannot see the world around them and work out for themselves what is best for them and that they can't and won't do better for themselves? People have that capacity, and do this all the time, parhaps imperceptibly to others - they only need to be freed of the constraints imposed by other people. By remaining disempowered and not in control of their own destinies, people will remain stuck and unable to move forward. Perhaps you believe that is how people ought to remain, and that someone else will resolve their issues for them? Do you think this is how we and our society have developed?

Traditional knowledge has survived the onslaught and impacts. People haven't remained the same as 50 or 5,000 years ago. They have changed. We have changed. There is much they can learn and we can learn from them, that would benefit, at the very least, the environment, business, science and people. We're so accustomed to telling others how they should be doing things and living their lives (learnt from our education system), we need to learn instead to ask questions, be quiet and listen.

Derek Sheppard

Derek

Of course people can chose for themselves, but when that choice causes them problems living with the rest of the world, through an acceptance within that community of poor health, poor education, domestic violence, substance abuse and general lawlessness then they cannot blame the rest of us.

I say an acceptance, because change must come from within a community.

I compare two Aboriginal communities in Sydney - Lap Perouse and Redfern. La Perouse has higher rates of education, employment and health, and I have been told by members of that community how much they resent the Redfern community and its lawlessness.

So, you take your choice, you deal with the consequences.

People - any people - can choose lifestyles and ways of spending their money and other community assets. If I spend my money and time wastefully, then the consequences are on me.

Sadly, again non-Indigenous people are showing their ignorance of the need for Indigenous people to determine what they wish to do with their future.

Having been victims of an illegal invasion and occupation they have been seen not be be able to look after their future (never know you mob might leave after a couple of 100 yrs just like India and other colonised countries). So, from day one they are called savages, told they have to become white, when that failed they are told, you are not entitled to your own country back nor the right (which every Australian has) to be compensated for the destruction of social order, language, knowledge, history and your mother (land).

Oh, but just accept it and move on angry young black man. How come as soon as an non-Indigenous person is victimised, ie, Corby, the two (not names yet) Cronulla lifeguards, and numberous others who in my anger I cannot think of, it is unjust or un-Australian.

I live in North Queensland and when an Aboriginal boy is a victim of a racial hit and run or a young man is obviously murdered in custody (Palm Island) you have more chance of this community voicing their disgust over a couple of kittens abused by a couple of army boys.

Please note: Can a tree be part tree? No, Indigenous, Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander, Koori or other terms please, using 'part' is insulting. Australians, mostly white, never have to justify their whiteness so why do we have justify our depth of blackness...

Back to work,

What a load of codswallop - didn't think I'd be resorting to this type of low level comment but ....
has the writer thought this through?
Give 13 year olds or any teen a $2,000/ year incentive to go to school and let them spend it, not on saving a nest egg for their future education but on whatever takes their fancy? At 13 my money would have been spent on clothes, movies, records and treats. In a remote community what would a 13 year old spend money on to relieve the boredom?
In Bath, England, we met a NZ educator who had spent five years teaching in a remote aboriginal community. He succeeded in getting his kids to attend school and the results were high achieving kids. How? By not cowtailing to the NLC or any local who wanted him removed because he insisted parents paid to perform jobs in the school turn up to work or they would not receive payment. He bucked an entrenched system that set a poor example to children. When his parents led by example, the children followed and everyone benefited. Call this method whatever you like, but this will work far better than the lollipop method advocated in the article.

kalalli, unfortunately a general attack on the education system and its teaching staff is a common knee-jerk reaction to truancy. It's an opinion that often comes from those who lack any real knowledge of what a teacher contends with in this day and age. Yes, there are bad teachers out there - like any profession. But the current lack of respect from today's children (no colour bias) is alarming - threats, and actual, physical violence from kids and their respective family members will test even the calmest teacher. Is it any wonder that those teachers worth their salt pack up and head for the private sector?

Education doesn't begin once that bell rings - it begins at home. No amount of monetry incentive or teacher harranging will ever provide solutions if there is no value placed on education in a student's family environment.

Thankfully, I am not a teacher - but I witness what my partner puts up with at school. Note the countless late nights buried in paperwork, plus the weekend afterhour activities... and wonder what the hell parents actually do for their children!

Mainstram education does not work for up to 1/3 of mainstream students. It is not just Aboriginal students alienated from our present schools.

It is not disadvantage that alienates Aboriginal students, it is culture. To treat Aboriginality like a disability that must be incorporated into non-disabled society by some augmentation is simply wrong thinking and won't work. Aboriginal culture is the positive force and strong self identity that can drive Aboriginal students, not something to be ignored or overcome.

Noel Pearson and others have said Aboriginal students should go to boarding school or move to cities as there are no education opportunities in remote communities. It is time for intelectual dinosaurs to enter the computer age and realise that a person can go from pre-school to Phd by correspondence any where on this continent, no matter how remote or their community is - and stay connected to family and country.

The negative social environment for study is not uneducated relatives, I have noticed that Aboriginal elders who were institutionally denied an education are those most insistant on the importance of education.

it is things associated with disadvantage at home (not culture) like overcrowding, poor nutrition, especially breakfast, family violence and peer group pressure. Once there is a quantum mass of truents then truency becomes a viable and tempting option that quickly becomes a habit - white or black, especially if school is alienting. Then that community has a major escalating problems in many areas including crime and paint/petrol sniffing.

Issues like education, housing, child sexual abuse, domestic violence, drug and alcohol problems etc. are all interelated - in black and white families. Any one of these issues affects the others, either positively through healing or negatively through neglect.

Aboriginal education must be one element of a holistic healing paradigm for Aboriginal communities, including other elements such as corroboree and traditional social structures such as elders councils, mens councils and womens councils.

Attempts to further assimilate aboriginal students into mainstream structures wil fail just as that same objective has failed over and over again in the past.

Aboriginal children, like every other child in this country need to be educated to join the mainstream of society or as adults they will feel like misfits. No one denies the importance of their original culture in this process either, but today's children are part of a new culture, and this is the real world they must sink or swim in.
The reality is: aboriginals wanting to work will have to leave remote communities (and their family network), and unless prepared for this real world, which must be presented in a positive way, will feel too anxious to make this move. Is not becoming educated, an unconscious form of avoidance?
Has anyone considered this perspective?

Aboriginal chidren are made to feel like misfits in the mainstream at present. That is the essential problem. Unless the nature of the mainstream changes, or alternatives are created,the problem will remain.

The reality is, right now, Aboriginal people are sinking. assimilation has not worked in the 100 years of that being government policy.

Why do people have to leave remote areas to work?. Most of our primary industries operate from remote areas, why wouldn't economic developments work for Aboriginal people based on agriculture.

If telstra can employ people in India to operate their call centres, they could set up call centres in remote Aboriginal communities too.

there are an infinite number of creative solutions to problems based on Aboriginal perspectives, but these options are systematically ignored in favour of white programs that have proven themselves to fail over and over again.

We must tackle these issues with open hearts and minds, not cling to the status-quo.

What is called for in this matter is encouragement, not money.
Money oils the wheel that squeaks, thats for sure, but this wheel has major suspention problems and its most unlikely to stop squeaking as long as money is continually thrown at the problem.
Any kid, regardless of background needs to be encouraged and on occasion may need to be strongly coerced to attend education.
All kids, in my opinion need to believe there are possibilities that can be enhanced by education. Study is not always easy or fun, but the bigger picture needs constant reiteration.
So if we are going to throw money at it, lets not be racist about it.
White, black and all shades in between should get the same. The past history is certainly shameful (on both sides) as most people would agree (except the both sides bit!), but its time to move on. Being of convict extraction, my relatives did not choose to come here. If I go to Ireland there is no handout for me, no land claim, no cultural recognition, and I doubt I could even be a citizen of the country. If I chose to live there, I would have to fit in with their plans.
I completed a diploma of conservation and land management at Qld Tafe, only to find at the end of it at was discontinued for white people and dumbed down for the murris so they could give plenty out. Now, this has totally devalued a qualification that took 18 months to achieve. If I use the diploma, I'll have to specify that its not the aboriginal version but the real one.
It dosent help me and it dosent help them either, but to the beancounters it must have a real nice shine.
Could it be covert racism?

Hello,
People think us mob predominately live in the bush or isolated locations across the country.

Check the ABS website to learn that the majority of Indigenous people live in urban and regional areas.

Secondly many never left or were forcibly removed from their country and watched as the cities and towns grew around them.

Thirdly, this means that they also face relative poverty in a relative rich surrounding and they still fall below the expected learning benchmark.

Stop thinking that we are outback and understand that you take for granted your social, geographic and cultural position so much that you cannot and never will see it from our side of the two-way mirror.

Oh yeah, and brother who thinks his TAFE course was 'dumbed down'- as a teacher- I would gladly indigenise any curriculum to allow it to reflect the need of the learners' linguist needs, lack of cultural capital and privilege you have taken for granted every day of your schooling experience.

Back to work,

but why can't we use something else to reward them for coming to school? after all, money is not the answer to everything. if they are just temptated by money all their life then they will most likely not learn that you can do things for people because you care and because it makes you feel good, not because your going to be payed. they should go to school because someone wants them to, and learn how it feels good when someone asks a favour of you and you complete that favour. i also agree with michael duffy on the job part, why not move to a city, there's more jobs.

1.in all this discussion not statistical data is offered about attendance and attrition rates at all. My point here is that there is variability (from community to community) and this is crucial to know in any major policy development and roll out.

2. Indigenous educators have long aimed for, and have continued to work towards, systemic change, whereby systems and schools deliver education that is meaningful to all students, addresses their backgrounds and experiences, and meets their needs and aspirations while ensuring that they acquire the knowledge and skills to pursue their individual goals.

3.Such decisions must belong to the relevant parents, students and communities; and educators, education administrators, policy-makers need to listen to, and engage with, communities during every step of the process. No scheme (such as giving money)should not be based on compulsion.

3[a*]It seems a pity that many posters here appear to have also missed out on a comprehensive education (ie, learning Aboriginal history, recent and past)

I forgot to add, Michael Duffy is god.

Rainier wrote:

Indigenous educators have long aimed for, and have continued to work towards, systemic change, whereby systems and schools deliver education that is meaningful to all students, addresses their backgrounds and experiences, and meets their needs and aspirations while ensuring that they acquire the knowledge and skills to pursue their individual goals.

Thed problem is, Rainier, that 'their individual goals' may be for some people to the overall society's detriment.

All the talk about individuality in education forgets that education is intended, apart from the individual good, to produce people who can contribute to the wider society.

Moving from the Aboriginal context to another group, a friend of mine taught for a time in a school in South West Sydney with a large population of students from Lebanese backgrounds. These students didn't want to be their either, there was nothing that education could contribute to many of them achieving their 'individual goals'. Hence many did not complete school either. Paying that group to attend may have resulted in more days at school, but would alos have resulted in more detrimental outcomes for their classmates.

2Deadly wrote - Having been victims of an illegal invasion and occupation they have been seen not be be able to look after their future (never know you mob might leave after a couple of 100 yrs just like India and other colonised countries). So, from day one they are called savages, told they have to become white, when that failed they are told, you are not entitled to your own country back nor the right (which every Australian has) to be compensated for the destruction of social order, language, knowledge, history and your mother (land).

Not by me. I don't disagree that it happened and I don't disagree that there was racism etc., But I refuse point blank to be held responsible for something I didn't do. My family heritage is Scottish and English both of those places have been invaded numerous times throughout history.

2Deadly wrote - Please note: Can a tree be part tree? No, Indigenous, Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander, Koori or other terms please, using 'part' is insulting. Australians, mostly white, never have to justify their whiteness so why do we have justify our depth of blackness...

I'm not white, I'm peaches and cream :-) I agree with that, one is either an aboriginal or they aren't. Which is my mind is a full blooded aboriginal not anything else. I could say that I'm half Scottish, half English but I'm not - I'm an Australian.

Why can't we all be Australians ? Why do people continue to divide us up into nice little sections of society ?

2Deadly wrote:
Hello,
People think us mob predominately live in the bush or isolated locations across the country.
Check the ABS website to learn that the majority of Indigenous people live in urban and regional areas.

I agree with that, indigenous people do and it is the people in the bush and isolated locations that miss out on the money to improve their lot in life because most of it is sucked up by the city dwellers.

Free Tafe courses (where I live anyway). Car loans at 3% interest. Aboriginal housing at ridiculously low rental rates.

The city dwellers aren't the ones who need it the most. ATSIC lined its own members pockets and forgot those who are in the most need of basic medical care, housing, sewerage etc.,

So what you have is the part Kooris taking away from the true Kooris. Not good in my eyes.

assimilation : becoming part of something greater, taking on the cultural and other traits of a larger group, the integration of new knowledge or information with what is already known.
Based on the dictionary meaning, aboriginals have assimilated into the dominant culture. How many really want to return to the exact life-style their aboriginal ancestors lived pre 1788? None. Those who do live in remote communities use as many modern amenities as they can. Why? Because who wouldn't?
The best way to keep people down is to perpetuate a myth that rural and remote areas can provide sufficient employment (that is not funded by government grants) when full time employment is the only viable alternative to dependence, to welfare, boredom and poverty.
The reality is those of non aboriginal descent also have to leave remote communities; so let's educate all kids so they can survive in the larger community. The better solution is to put money into all education, not just the pockets of a few kids.

Freethinker,

2Deadly wrote:
"You cannot treat everyone like an Australian because us mob who are not white keep getting told that we aren't. Man, what would I pay to be treated as an equal, do a google on "Peggy Macintosh" and 'whiteness' to find out about what it is like to be part of the power group in this country."

That was from an earlier quote on the page.

You will never know what it is like for a black Australian to live in a racist white middle class Country. Maybe you should go to another country that is predominately "pigment enhanced" and then come back and share your feelings. Better yet go to an Aboriginal community and live there for a few years without a power base, ie. money and communication with the outside world. That way you may forget that you still are a member of the dominate group.

Hopefully then you will have an awakening of why this country continues to be divided by colour and legal rights to country.

Where are you getting your info on TAFE courses, cheap car loans and cheap housing. Wow! I must move to your part of the country because I still pay full course fees, pay same interest rates for my car as well as renting without a discount. Those who have been given these 'benefit' are the same as others in the same income bracket....it is called EQUITY. Yet as mentioned before, I would gladly pay whatever you think is 'fair' on top of my taxes to keep the right to be Aboriginal and while your being generous, throw in a few years of life expectancy.

By the way, the Scottish never stopped having the right to be Scottish regardless of English occupation so why should 500 original Aboriginal nations stop resisting illegal colonial occupation. As well, this Tuesday many Australians will recognise the unsuccessful invasion of Turkish territory while failing to acknowledge the illegal invasion of this continent. Very strange...'less we forget' one of them, 'try to forget' the other.

Back to work,

Schools do not produce anything. Their "product" is not people. They provide a service, supposedly of education. However, unlike most other services, schools have the luxury of law that requires and compells people to accept their services, irregardless of whether the service is that wanted by its forced consumers, or its quality, content or the price of the service. This is just one of the ways in which schools are separated from the real world. Schools ought to be reimagined to make them relevant to life as it is now and for the future. Democratic, alternative, and progressive schools have pioneered this for years - but like many indigenous people, but to nowhere near the extent, these schools are marginalised and their lessons for society are disregarded.

The last thing that indigenous people need is more indocrination. If the service offered by schools was good, worthwhile, and satisfactory to its consumers, then the consumers would want to be there, because they could see a need for it. Preparation for life is not just about work, even though it is important to ensure people can be independent. If schools were doing their job, they would be supporting initiative, entrepreneurship, self disciplne and values that complement democratic life. Indeed, it would be only responsible to replicate democratic life and values - but they are nowhere like this, and fail dismally in this regard. Learning life skills and Australian democratic values that embrace the culture and ethnicity of young people will support their development and ability to not just go on to work or further study, but to create work and their own businesses. The creation of work by seeing and recognising what consumers need and then working at ways to fill those needs with products or services is what small and large businesses do all the time in our so called free enterprise based economy.

Regards, Derek Sheppard

Spending thousands of hours of personal time at school to learn how to become a worker for someone else is not what education ought to be about. It simply reinforces a belief system that individuals are disempowered individuals, the "poor bugger me", "I'm not good enough" syndromes that pervade throughout sections of Australian society. But Australia is a democracy. Individuals are powerful. They can effect change. They can and will do things for themselves, if they believe enough in themselves and the people around them. And their cultural origins and roots are part of this, as someone with Scottish ancestry, for instance, would acknowledge (Scotland, after hundred of years of suppression, and cultural denigration).

There is a huge untapped spirit, knowledge, along with ten of thousands of years of passed on experiences in indigenous people. At the very least, tourists, if not Australians, are seeking this. Tourism alone, as an industry, with all its needs of accommodation, food, information and experiences must provide big openings for indigenous entrepreneurship. We have in our midst the oldest surviving culture on this planet (with its mostly good and some bad aspects)- we ought to be embracing and celebrating this, not being derisory of the impacts on it of a mere 200 years of probably unlawful, but inescapable occupation with all the effects that it brings with it of alcohol, disease, social concepts, etc. Many non-indigenous Australians still do not know how to deal with these problems, probably in far greater numbers than there are of all the indigenous people.

The last thing Australia needs is more people leaving the country and regions to go to become city consumers whose load on the environment has become so great the environments around them are beginning to collapse (through lack of knowledge and experience, in just 200+ years, in this harsh Australian environment). Even for non-indigenous people it's hard to maintain their individual identity in cities, let alone indigenous people whose cultural roots and identities have been challenged for so long.

Regards, Derek Sheppard

It is pretty hard to do any self-improvement, or help your community to improve its living conditions and heath, if you are illiterate, innumerate, and these days not computer literate and have a belief more in superstition than of basic science. It also doesn't help when people fail to learn basic ideas of analysis and interpretation of facts.

Our schools are failing to provide these skills to many people,not through bad teaching, lack of funds or inappropriate curriculum, but because some do-gooders have spent so much time agreeing with various ethnic groups that such white-centred ideals are culturally inappropriate and not necessary.

In many black African societies education, in the western sense, is seen as absolutely vital for their children and for their future, regardless of other cultural values, to the extent that many children are educated in what we would call 'private' schools where basic school fees are paid.

These children don't have to be paid to attend school, they do so willingly and walk for enormous distances in order to get even basic education. Those lucky enough to get the opportunity for secondary school embrace it willingly, with a passion. These people have also been colonised, many are oppressed, live in absolute desperate poverty that make a recipient of Australian government welfare seem rich. Many are affected by civil war and violence. But education is still seen as vital by many members of these societies.

Why is this so in African indigenous populations, but not here in Australia?

@Hamlet

Thats because most Africans believe in a good Education,crowded classrooms or not, education is important.

Hamlet,

How can you compare apples with oranges when your base line knowledge on the diversity and culture and history of Indigenous Australians (and Africans) is so obviously depleted?

In the interface between your knowledge of then comparison between Africans and Indigenous Australians lies a bundle of very old myths, stereotypes and pseudo understandings of the complexities of colonialism and its effects on Indigenous populations (past and present)

Or does being a white Australian suffice as being considered an authority on all things "Australian", indeed all things non-white?

Which African nations, people, and communities are you speaking about?

Furthermore you asserted in previous post: “students from Lebanese backgrounds. These students didn't want to be their either”

Well I for one would want more evidence (and reasons) than this that they didn’t want to be there or other evidence to support the reasons why the DID want to be there.
You seem intent on pathologising these kids as deviant without providing any sold evidence. Why?

But more to the point - if your latent intention is to purge yourself of some hate for Indigenous Australians, don’t use Others in to construct your arguments as rational comparisons, come out and say it out loud.

And before you fire back let it be known that I'm all for "informed" debate.

So come on, get with it

Rainier

If I am making you that angry I must be touching a sensitive nerve.

How about having a good look through these:

About Kenya

http://www.google.com.au/search?as_q=education+africa+school+fees&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images

http://www.ungei.org/infobycountry/247_635.html

South Africa

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0202/p13s01-legn.html

Central Africa

http://allafrica.com/stories/200604050442.html

Overall, in most of the developing world it is school fees that are keeping children out of school. The parents know the value of education, and instill this in their children.

Here it is the opposite. In spite of Abstudy and the like, and 'free education' Aboriginal children IN SOME AREAS seem to need more incentive to attend school.

I used to work in the CES that covered the La Perouse area. That office had a substantial number of Aboriginal clients, most of whom had levels of education at least equal to the non-Aboriginals who lived in the area. In various offices I had a number of Aboriginal people from that area as collegues both at management level, and as employment officers. The families in that area knew the value of education. But as I have said before, the Aboriginal people from 'Larpa' didn't get along with the Aboriginals from Redfern.

It wasn't their Aboriginality that mattered, it was the relative attitude and energy.

2Deadly Wrote:

"You will never know what it is like for a black Australian to live in a racist white middle class Country"

And fortunately neither will the Aboriginal people of Australia. Whilst any kind of racism should never be tolerated, I would think that a quick look at the plight of the Native American Indians, the African Slave Trade and Racism in South Africa should make one think twice before saying that they are worst off.

"Where are you getting your info on TAFE courses, cheap car loans and cheap housing. Wow! I must move to your part of the country because I still pay full course fees, pay same interest rates for my car as well as renting without a discount. Those who have been given these 'benefit' are the same as others in the same income bracket....it is called EQUITY"

I get the information from my friends. As Jamie said to me "Alison, if they were throwing money at you, what would you do ?" The answer came about after I asked him "Don't you think that the Aboriginal people in the outback could use it more than you ?"

"By the way, the Scottish never stopped having the right to be Scottish regardless of English occupation so why should 500 original Aboriginal nations stop resisting illegal colonial occupation".

They fought for the right to be Scottish. At one time the English wouldn't accept Scottish money and if they did they gave them less than the English rate for it. And that was only 30 years ago. My father was/is Scottish and he played professional football (soccer) in England. Although more than deserving of a place in the Scottish national team to play at the world cup (read 50's here) he was ommitted from the team BECAUSE he chose to play soccer in England.

We are either all human beings pulling together to make this a better country/world - or we are divided. If you walk upright and bleed red, then you are a human being to me. All human beings deserve exactly the same benefits.

Alison.

Cynthia2 asked

"How many really want to return to the exact life-style their aboriginal ancestors lived pre 1788?"

I ask, how many white people want to return to the lifestyle of their ancestors pre 1788? This is an irrelevant question as it is not possible for anyone to turn the clock back like that. However in the 21st century there are different modern cultures. Even the English language is used differently. Many Aboriginal people use traditional Aboriginal grammer to string English words together. The English call this "broken" English, but it is not broken at all. just a different cultural usage of the words, and consistent, effective and appropriate communication within that culture.

Same thing with flush toilets, computers. T.V.s and cars etc., the white people never had any of these things in 1788. These modern inventions do not belong to one culture as their own. Black nations such as Africa, Vanuatu, Solomons, Fiji etc have all these modern things but have adapted them to their own cultural needs just as the British, Japanese, Germans and everyone else has.

It is a white superiority perspective to claim the modern world is the domain of white culture. Why can't the backward English assimilate into 21st century Aboriginal society? After all this is an Aboriginal country, haven't migrants a responsibility to assimilate if they come to live here?

Hamlet,

Sensitive? Ha! Well no, more like amazed that one can use so little evidence in relation to making some broad statements about Indigenous kids and education as if it were enough to justify an authoritative perspective.

Yes working in the CES (that's a long time ago!) may have given you some insights, but these anecdotal recollections can hardly be used to prop up many of your assertions.

Surely this forum (and this topic) deserves better?

Hamlet, if you are really interested in this topic goes and speaks to some Indigenous parents in your area. (and do some real research)
But perhaps being more informed will mean you'll have to abandon some of your pet myths about Koori's?

By the way, I'm Koori, a teacher. Nonetheless I know you have to keep up with the facts, theory and analysis. What's your excuse for not doing the same?

@King Canute

Africa is not a country.Lets not compare third world African and other nations ,with a more powerful Western Nation such as Australia.

I believe every situation is different to each other,although I have nothing against comparing rich nations and poor nations,the educated with un-educated the strong and the weak, used as examples.But we only create more problems when we compare people, then not treat them as Individuals.Then we lose interest in the plot because Everyone's different even people of the same background.
I do believe in equality and justice for all people.

Freethinker (ironic title)

Our discussion is going backwards. You fail to read nor understand my opinion so it is redundant to conitue wasting my time (remember the life expectancy point?)...

To summarise:
An Indigenous Australian is telling you his thoughts and you are continuing to reply with shallow, ignorant feelings of a better country.
As a Native Hawaiian friends says to racists who continually refuse to listen to reason, "I'll see you when you get 'there'. "There" is where you respect the ownership and perspective of Indigenous Australians. "There" is where you stop seeing what a few receive and look at the stats of the many. "There" is where you see your own un-urned privileges and those denied to Indigenous Australians.

"There" is a place I hope you reach but sadly like so many others, ignorance is a comfortable existance that is guilt free and soothing.

I won't bother to reply any further. Pity though, you needed saving...

Yes africa is a lot of nations. The point I was making is that cultures other than English have made it into the modern world too and there is nothing particularly English about the modern world.

The basis of white superiority is the illusion that English culture is more advanced than other cultures and that others need to assimilate into the superier culture for their own advancement. This is as relevent to this discussion today as it was when Joseph Banks said the backward Aboriginal race were dying out because they were not adapting.

The truth is Aboriginal disadvantage, whether in education or anywhere else is a result of the imposition of a colonial society and the destruction of indigenous society, not cultural retardation.

In 1788 Aboriginal people had invented aerodynamics, well beyond Da-Vinci and his theories, the boomerang had been around for a long time, with a much more sophisticated aerofoil than anything the English could come up with until the 20th century.

Same with health care, indigenous healers had refined systems over thousands of years based on the connections between physical and psychological health, while the English were still playing with leaches. In 1788 the English had just discovered the importance of vitamin C and fresh fruit and vegies for health.

China has been using accupuncture and "chi" for thousands of years and today they have incorporated these things into a modern hospital and public health care system. The English medicine system still says "chi" does not exist.

The English have only just discovered ecology recently, yet it is the ancient basis of Aboriginal culture.

It seems to me that, if Aboriginal culture and institutions were allowed to thrive instead of being told to fit in to English structures, the development of these indigenous systems and knowledge would be of great help in evolving the understandings and problem solving capacity of us all. The dominant English culture has much to learn from other cultures if only it allowed cultural difference to be an assett, not a problem to be fixed.

Okay, throw more money at the problem.

I can understand, but am disappointed by 2deadly's withdrawal from this debate. It seems there is a willingness to throw explosive grenade like comments into the discussion, without then having the solid information to back it up. My questions to hamlet, arising directly from his comments still generally remain unanswered. I would like to hear more, not less, from 2deadly - and more from any of the other indigenous people watching and commenting on this topic.

People need the ability to choose and create the nature of school and education they want, that supports young, and all people, to prepare for life as independent, self reliant, effective adults in a democratic Australian society. This can happen in ways not generally on offer from the aged and worn out dominant paradigm of education as it is now forced on people (established at a time to develop compliant, subservient people who could take orders and directions without their meaningful and beneficial input). There are people who see and want changes, and 2deadly, rainier and king canute have reflected on this.

The answer is not paying people to do things they would not otherwise choose to do, but reimagining and reinventing or creating educational models and schools that fit peoples' needs, within an Australian democratic context. The continuing trend of people to move away from public education demonstrates that they are after better things. This is what it ought to be what democracy's all about - being free to make real, not ridiculously limited choices, with respect (including tolerance), and accepting personal responsibility for the outcomes, in an environment which is just, fair and equitable and where we learn to trust others, but maintaining our identity, individuality and independence, so there is an ability to contribute meaningfully and co-operatively with others.

We lack the ability to invest the venture capital that can enable new directions in education to develop - innovative US Schools are benefitting from investments by the Gates Foundation. Where are the risk takers in Australia?

Regards, Derek Sheppard

I don't know if more money is the answer - but I do like the idea of payments for school being based on attendance at school. It is not enough to be enrolled in school - you actually have to go there if it is going to do you any good!

Chris Sarra, principal of Cherbourg State School, brought in some radical policy changes when he arrived at the school. He reduced truancy and unexplained absenteeism dramatically. Unsurprisingly, literacy and numeracy improved dramatically too. But he didn't pay kids to go to school.

It is interesting that the same old line comes up - that Aboriginal people should leave their communities and move to the big smoke where they can find a job. But is the life of an Aboriginal person living in Redfern or Inala any better than one in Doomadgee? Apparently not.

One thing is certain - education is empowerment. Whatever strategies improve education get my vote. And whatever strategies allow the preservation of some of the finer elements of Aboriginal communities while making them economically and socially viable get my vote, too.

I will admit that this is pie-in-the-sky, idealist stuff. I don't have the answers and I am not an expert. But I don't think giving up on the problem - making Aboriginal people more white - is the answer.

"Chris Sarra, principal of Cherbourg State School, brought in some radical policy changes when he arrived at the school. He reduced truancy and unexplained absenteeism dramatically. Unsurprisingly, literacy and numeracy improved dramatically too. But he didn't pay kids to go to school."

My information suggests he did introduce a reward system based on his strong and smart "philosophy" (or was it form of cultist faddsihism with devotion to or veneration for a person?)

Despite all the media spin no one has set eyes on the actual imperial evidence of the Cherbourg miracle -aka literacy and numeracy stats - and everyone knows you can fudge attendance and attrition rates.

Am I being nasty? I don't think so. What truly urks me most is that State (i.e. Qld) governments continue to create diversions (such as the Sarra (Truman) Show) from addressing their fundamental failure to deliver equitable outcomes in education for Indigenous children and communities.

I say state governments (whose primary responsibility it is to provide education) should urgently re-appraise their continued failures as a systemic issue, not a community issue.

Sure parents should be held accountable. But perhaps it’s their (state government's) approach to schooling in remote communities that needs to be drastically reconsidered?

Rewards, throwing more money or more fiddling at the periphery will not change what is inherently now an intergenerational failure of successive state governments to comprehend the role of education (for all) in communities that were initially established as gulags for Indigenous people.

Bandaids, bandaids and yet more bandaids will not cure what is essentially the legacy of colonialism and its impact on first nations peoples.

The comment about living in the pre 1788 era is valid because it was made in relation to a comment claiming assimilation has failed. It has not.
Positive assimilation occurs through marriage, education, adaptation and mutual co-existence. We tend to focus on the failures rather than the success stories. Why?
Unfortunately assimilation does not guarantee an end to poverty because many factors produce poverty (poor health, disability, lack of opportunity due to poor education or location, addiction, a 'you owe me' attitude - you get the drift). The poverty cycle is broken through having an income level that provides for needs (as opposed to wants). Education provides this opportunity. Moving to where opportunities exist is another.
This article is about truancy and solving it. Giving money to kids is not the solution. Investing in their education is one solution. Showing them there is a better positive alternative to where they are at is another. Do our schools do this? Telling them their future success is up to themselves is another. My best teacher was the one who told me in year 5 to stop feeling sorry for myself, to stop making excuses and to get on with life ie to stop getting around with a chip on my shoulder. I wonder if a teacher would be allowed to say this in our PC schools?

Now I'm going to be really bad. Otokonoko, the only way aboriginals can make themselves less 'white' is pretty obvious. Marry only full blood aboriginals.

Why is gaining an education that gives you life oppportunites seen as turning 'white'? As postees have shown: our education is based on accumulated knowledge and wisdom from the past - and not everyone who provided this was 'white'.

re. Cynthia2's comments

There are many "mixed marriages" - between Aboriginal people and non-Aboriginal people where the non-Aboriginal partner has assimilated into Aboriginal family structures, law and culture. Similarly there have been many white state school teachers who have assimilated to local culture including learning local language and achieve good educational results

Why do you assume cross cultural relationships will naturally tend towards the white side?

And the full blood comment is irrelevent, "Aboriginality" and "whiteness" are about culture not genetics. Assimilation is about repressing culture and spirituality and imposing another. If we let Aboriginality and the spirit of this country free, instead of trying to block it at every turn, our own culture just might learn something. We have the highest youth suicide rate in the world, we certainly need to learn some things about culture, psychology and spirit.

Hi Derek,

Thanks for the encouragement to continue commenting. My plan is to be more selective of discussion partners.

How come throwing more money at a problem seen only an issue with Indigenous people. We continue to throw money at the cane farmers and they tend to avoid public accountability.

Have any of those that think ATSIC was spending tax payer money in a careless way ever read an annual report of the now defunct organisation? The accountability levels were higher that the (government backed) AWB but of course 'their' $300 million lose gets a slap on the wrist.

Chris Sarra changed the mindset of department staff, teachers, parents and childrens by committing to a simple though/action attitude change from..."Black = failure" to...."Black = success." Very simple, just like teaching my daughter that when the teenager deli staff looks through you at the local Woolworths and attempts to serve another customer (happens at least once a month) you maintain eye contact and tell him/her that you were there first. And, that if you dress badly then expect the Myers staff to follow you through the perfume section. - we just tested this fact last week. Attitudes need to change in order to correct past failures.

Believe me I don't think that giving kids a few dollars a fortnight (like I was given in the early 80s, albeit only $3/$6 checks) will solve the problem but increasing the funding to the amounts that knowledgable experts say will help address housing, education and health needs is worth a try. If housing experts say, $500 million will fix the housing problem in Aboriginal communities and the gov throws $50 million, what is the expected outcome? Simple hey? Add to this that most of these economists are white males not just those of us at the black coalface. Pun not intended.

Back to work, I have a funding submission to write...got to keep asking for money to warrant successful outcomes.

2deadly wrote:

To summarise:

(An Indigenous Australian is telling you his thoughts and you are continuing to reply with shallow, ignorant feelings of a better country.

"There" is a place I hope you reach but sadly like so many others, ignorance is a comfortable existance that is guilt free and soothing).

When backed into a corner with logic either run like the dickens or use the 'you don't understand the aboriginal problem lines' :-( I interact with aboriginal people every day of my life, amazingly, they want a better country where we are ALL Australians

At our primary school, out of our allocation of 19.1 teachers we have 1 full bloodied aboriginal and 4 part bloodied aboriginal teachers. They did not get money given to their parents to attend school, makes one wonder how they made it as teachers really. Perhaps their parents taught them the values of a decent society, where it is more important to self esteem to work for a living rather than keep receiving hand outs. In fact it is a rarity, not the norm to see any non working aboriginal people down our way. There are the odd bad apples, as there are in the peaches and cream population. I don't receive hand outs from the government ..... I lie, I got a $50 allowance per child at the beginning of each school year. My kids don't get Austudy till they reach the age of 16. Abstudy is handed out to aboriginal kids when they start high school. So how much more money do you want handed out, and wasted, because it obviously isn't working.

Re: the wheat board.

Do you eat bread and cereal ? It isn't just the 'white' wheat board. It is the Australian Wheat Board. Have you ever considered moving ? If things are as bad where you live as you say they, this would be an option I would look at.

Did anyone happen to see Insight on SBS last night?

I hope to get a copy from a friend but Sarra was on there.

He had limited air time, as you would expect in such a large forum, but his comments were quite interesting.

Any comments?

2Deadly, Pardon me but please show me the evidence that attitudes of department staff and teachers have changed substantially?

Indeed, can anyone really qualitatively measure attitudinal changes?

My evidence tells me that only 5-8 Cherbourg students have graduated to the nearby Murgon High School over the past 6 years.

History has shown us that even with the best of intentions; systems fail because they simply do not critically examine or question the imposed jurisdiction over Indigenous people as being problematic.

ie, Prison gaurds may well be nice people but....

What are your deadly thoughts on this?

The idea of providing monetary incentives to Indigenous children to attend school is not new. I recall having first received fortnightly cheques of [at a rough guess] of $3:00 per fortnight in 1971 when i entered 1st year high school. Back then my emphasis was not so much on attending school for the money as the main incentive but more so because i was raised to believe that education increased my access to good jobs, and since then i have had many of these over the previous 35yrs. Now, in hindsight, i also see that education [and jobs] has empowered me to have more control over making lifstyle choices. It seems that the wheel has turned, here we go again, except that now the idea in its present form, money has become the main incentive.

Rainier,

I figure your 'evidence' comes from maybe someone on the ground and that is good to hear however I know the impact the success has had a few young people across the country. Let's wait a few years and see what happens with their lives.

Also, how do these 6-8 enrolment compare with the pre-Sarra era. I understand that no Cherbourg student every finished year 8 at Murgon so I guess the only way was up.

I guess some are happy to point at the low success rates while ignoring/comparing the extreme negative rates. Please remember that this success took place in a educational system that still lacks an Indigenous perspective so any success is often regarded as white by us Indigenous mob.

At least Sarra is instilling a respect for Indigenous knowledge, being and culture as well as mastery of the generic system.

2Deadly,

Yes those who have pointed toward the very minimalist success rate have blown this up this as a major shift (miracle?). The evangelical nature of Sarra’s media image as [a modern day Martin Luther King of Aboriginal education] hides the abysmal failure of the Education Queensland to deliver (through their system) equitable outcomes in education for our youth and children.

Couple this with the propensity of whites to embrace this miracle as evidence of ‘Aboriginal kids needing to become “strong and smart” (as a binary opposite of being weak and stupid) it merely
1. confirms the racial and cultural deficit thinking about us
2. appeases the white (and black middle class) moral panic and their need for a quick-fix absolution.
3. Assumes our kids don’t pride about themselves and their cultures, (another deficit pathology)

Finally, I see no evidence of Sarra instilling respect for Indigenous knowledge, being and culture. Unless, you are inferring a respect for the pan-Aboriginal, carnivalesque, tea-towel Aboriginality and culture? In other words, cultural articulations devoid of any authority to determine educational outcomes for our kids? Theres certainly plenty of this gammin stuff being trotted out as ‘culture’.

Yes I agree with Ranier.

There is a big difference between the improvement of a few token indicators from a white perspective (e.g. attendence rates) and an improvement in education standards from an Aboriginal perspective (e.g. elders involvement and cultural structures)

If there is anything to be learnt from this discussion and other public discussions of all things Aboriginal, it is that there are irreconcilable differences in agendas and perspectives of Aboriginal people and nearly everyone else. Similarly mainstream Australia seems not only to misunderstand Aboriginal perspective, but for some reason seems to resent it intensley.

It seems to me that indigenous education has to evolve more independent processes as the longer it is managed by white people, the longer the black agendas will be ignored.

White people dont understand, nor do they care except when it spills over into their lives. They are in no position to be dictatng terms for the education of Aboriginal children. Only Aboriginal people understand, and more importantly they are the only people who really do care for Aboriginal children.

Once again I agree with King Canute.

Education needs to accommodate and embrace the cultures of the people.

If the awfully applied word of assimilation ought to be applied to anyone, it ought to be applied to all of us who came to Australia in the last couple of hundred years.

In answer to 2deadly's comments, probably ably answered by Rainier, I am concerned that Chris Sarra has become too absorbed in or consumed by the processes of mainstream, conservative and relatively new (at only 150 years of age) education and curricula. When I was finally able to see the Insight debate on Monday afternoon, he was impressive but given too short a time to express much about values. I know that the monolithic education machine can be or appear overwhelming, but it is vital for individuals to hold on to who they are, and remain an individual. This why the original idea posed of paying young people to attend School is almost abhorrent. It fails to address the issues surrounding the maintenance of principles, values, culture and identity that is missing from "education" as it is served up in schools to our (not only indigenous) children. All children need far more than what is currently delivered. The purposes for which education is delivered is separate and distinct from what young people can learn and that is necessary for preparation for their lives as effective, independent adults in an open, civil, democratic society that we all need to struggle to acheive.

Regards, Derek Sheppard

Ranier,

Great points. Funny how the daggers are out for Sarra by so many while he holds the DG's ear and with it the opportunity to suggest the future changes needed for us mob. My personal contact with the lad have indicated that like many media savy people, his message and methods have a mandate and he remains black in the midst of this surf.

I don't think he has been in control of the media image but as always, media tend to run with thier own ideology rather than that which 'you' highlight regardless of the actual words and media releases. Nevertheless, it has a purpose, to raise the awareness and demonstrate that this double or lesser standard needs to change, not only at the levle of the attitude of children, parents and communities but more importantly, the policy makers, money holders and power brokers. All of which will take Sarra's email or phone call (I suspect).

I would not consider the cultural teaching efforts at the school "gammon" seeing that, the recently deceased brother in charge, was committed to no end to ensuring that it was meaningful, community-based and embedded in the curriculum.

I think that changing the perception of the public by demonstrating and countering the current view is through the pages of the Australian and Courier Mail (Koori Mail too) rather than the few that read the online opinion virtual pages.

And now he has an institution to do what he sees as directional viable...and the funding to back it.

Just a thought...friend/brother (Bungi/Yumba)

2deadly, the daggers are not so much out for Sarra and for what he stands for in education as it largely appears to be unsupported by real evidence.

Am i being too cynical or just realistic in terms of my utruism?

And whose culture was being taught? Gabbi Gabbi, Wakka Wakka,? This is no disrespect for our late brother but a very important question in terms of how schools are organised and governed, not just as adjunct or embedded curriculum offerings.

More soon.

A new education paradigm? The following is something I wrote for another forum but it is relevent here

in some societies children work.
The united nations and others condemn child labour.

In some societies the children follow the adults around copying what they do and listening to what they say as they work.

In our society any consideration of the economic world, and the necesarry skills to be prosperous in it are reserved until the learner is an adult, when they leave school. At that point they begin their career development for entry into the bottom rung of the economy and begin the life long struggle to get to the second rung.

In other paradigms, a 5 year old child, if the child is that of the best hunter around, may well be the second best hunter around, or at least as good as the market standard.

A new education and training paradigm is relevant to all Australians as schools are simply not working at all for over 1/3 of mainstream students - apparently. May I suggest that the new education paradigm be based on entry into the economy at the highest possible rung at the earliest possible age - based on developmental milestones starting with helping out (work) at home.