Ah Boaz David says it perfectly....

"Yes, we Bible thumpers woffle... we rant.. we rave.. we get it wrong, our logic seems convoluted, our reasoning seems lacking, our faith seems ‘pie in the sky’, not many of us are eloquent or noble, but through our weakness, let Christ be seen, we glory in Him, not in or of ourselves."

Yes for millenia millions have lost their lives, demeaned their lives, and served the powerbrokers who had a "key" to what's beyond the grave. Even the 'words' when they were translated from latin so by-passing the system of powerbrokers (refering to Hus and Wycliffe) led to them being burnt. Yes those words, sanctified as they've become, are just that. May a hand from heaven smit those that transgress.

Live, share and care and enjoy this beautiful world. Ignore those that wish to corrupt it with words of mythology and sacrifice, of sin and salvation. It is your call to sacrifice, but dont impose yourself on others.

Thanks for the article. I am a litle stunned such a topic got a guernsey on this forum.

As to what is written ... the gist of it seems fair enough. I agree with it - by and large.
But the terminology and phraseology you use - are hardly public currency. (Someone said our theologians should learn to be evangelical, and the evangelists should do some theology. This article supports the theory)

As for those who are without faith, I reckon you folk would have struggled with this lot, even more than Nicodemus did with the things Jesus talked to him about. But possibly suspect that he is saying something dangerous to those who attack 'Christianity the religion'. Maybe the word Christianity should be dumped - there is a case for it.

I know you've heard us Christians say it before, but new birth is needed here, (plus a theological degree), to see what's being said.

That said, I find it interesting that quite a number of you regular writers (gluttons for verbal punishment) - continually go into battle against the Christian views that are posted.

Certainly you are not contending with a religion, but the living influence of this Person, Jesus, upon our lives. Even so, as has been acknowledged - we do often say and write and do some stupid things in Christ's name.

Living by grace, certainly makes the world an even more beautiful place - notwithstanding the marks of the curse, and the horror of sin. So, together, this time, with the atheist ... here's a toast to the end of all religions!

Remco,
We well recognise the total self absorption and selfishness of those without the true sacrificial spirit. Their world revolves around their pleasure and selfish gratification. They fail to recognise God took initative to change man's hearts. Man schemes murder: God designs sacrifice. The nature of God is graceous service to others need.

The great stories and events of this world are characterised by the initiation of someone who cared enough that they sacrificed to improve the lot of someone else.

The heart moving stories told on TV each night tell the stories of sacrifice. It is these sacrifices that give hopeless people hope and new life. It is the unseen sacrifice that finally gains the applause of the crowd. Self absorbed people heap praise upon themselves, but none are listening.

Sacrifice is what life is. Without some other living species being deprived of its natural life cycle we all die. We greatfully give thanks to God [its Creator] everytime we take a bite of something that has given its life that we might live. Without death there is no life continuing.

We may greedily eat the last bag of grain we have or sacrifice half of it so we eat grain the next season. That old grain lays down its potential so that new life continues, as quoted by Jesus. It is more blessed to give than receive said the apostle Paul.

Quote, "Live, share and care and enjoy this beautiful world. Ignore those that wish to corrupt it with words of mythology and sacrifice, of sin and salvation. It is your call to sacrifice, but dont impose yourself on others.

Sells, you might getter a better feel by substituting "non-attachment" - not getting hung up on things which are inherently impermanent - for "detachment" in what you wrote earlier. Non-attachment does not mean non-involvement, no compassion, but acting with understanding and awareness rather than reacting with ignorance.

Faustino,
Your last posts have been very helpful. It is always dangerous to judge other people’s traditions without inside knowledge. I guess we Christians are used to that.

I think that the attempts you describe at un-attachment fall under the criticism of pietism in Christian theology. Mind you, most church attenders and professed Christians fall under the same criticism. Pietism is a movement of the self to ensure righteousness, enlightenment, wisdom, holiness, perfection. The Reformation began with Luther, who as and Augustinian monk, discovered that all of his attempts resulted not in the death of the ego but in its inflation and then to increasing attempts at asceticism. He realized that this was a never ending circle that could only be broken by grace.

Thus Christianity does not, or should not, aim at spiritual perfection, but rather, with humour, realize that the journey has many surprises along the way. The thing is, we do not know what we should be, that is revealed to us along the way by the one we follow. There are no principles or values that will not become idolatrous and rob us of our freedom. We are called to a journey in faith towards a future that glimmers on the horizon and is in no way a prescription. Any attempt on our own part to become perfect will become idolatrous because it is our limited conception of what the good is.

Here we meet a difference in our conception of the abilities of the human. We, unpopularly, understand humanity as being blinded by sin, unable to see the good. The divine is that which reveals the real and the good. Our problem with Buddhism is that it appears to be limited to spiritual advice whereas the Christian revelation is an enacted historical event that may be summed up as the “resurrection of the crucified Christ”. Of course that requires unpacking.

In Buddhism – emptiness is ‘nothingness’ going ‘nowhere’. An empty being – without a soul – self-less unable to feel its surrounds – ultimate selfishness.

For Buddha the eventual goal of existence is non-existence, emptiness, and a void. Full detachment from “unreal” things and people (even life itself) sums up his teaching.

Buddha abandoned his baby son and family – a source of suffering, a stumbling block to enlightenment…

If humans are empty or unreal, how can that eliminate pain and suffering around them?

Reaching “nirvana” is impossible to describe because how can states of happiness or peace mean anything to a non-soul being?

Further how can emptiness (freedom from feelings) release happiness (a feeling)?

Many questions - no solution. Surely unning away from pain and sufering can't be a normal behaviour in human terms.