Indonesia is the most ungrateful group of people you have ever seen.

Turn your back after feeding them, helping them in disasters and providing support, and they bite you the first chance they get after the first thing that happens that they disagree on.

As for helping with people smuggling illegal fishing, what a joke it was token help only, if they enforced the laws and respected the boundaries even somewhat they would be able to make a huge difference.

Who cares if the relationship sours, we have been a gravy train for them for so long it is disgusting they would act like this after one simple incident.

Its time we told them to get stuffed, forget the population, forget the threat they are too fragmented to ever endanger us, and we pour our hearts out as a government and as individuals when disaster happens, only to be forgotten about in return.

As Chopper's father told him when he got out of Jail, your kindness will be the death of you, and this is right for Australia as we are flogging a dead horse and there is no point being kind to a snake when they are waiting for an excuse to bite us.

They can only do a half baked job anyway on assisting us with these issues, and Australians are no longer safe in Indonesia. They cant even provide for their own people.

I am usually a person who looks at both sides of the fence, and i have never been this passionate about being on the side of reason ever. take a look at yourselves Indonesia, weve tried to be your mate, weve helped you out forever yet you stab us in the back first chance you get. You wonder why life deals you blows, Karma is a wonderful thing.

Mr Kevin has long argued that the sinking of Siev X can be laid at Australia’s door step, maybe he is right.
Once again people in fear of their well being seek protection as refugees for whom Australia is bound to provide residence pending legal assessment of their claim. Yet it is not in these days, if it ever was so simple, for the national control which was to be partially vested in an international body with rights obligations and legal principles is it seem likely to be replaced again by politics. Howard has said sovereignty is Indonesia’s. Does this imply that threatened people objecting to what they and NGO’s claim is threatened existence, thus breaking local laws, can no longer become refugees?
Though from dreadful Iraq about which the hype of the media focused attention on persecution of people opposing Saddam, thus flouting of Iraq law. Equivalence? maybe. A question of law. None the less much rhetoric is given to law and order, even international obligations the practice is still National interest not concern for humans.
Moral if you want to object do not call on fair play, morality or any other past ethical concern just take the consequences, if the fight grows you name will be on the martyrs sheet and frequently voiced by politicians seeking glory by association

Fear not little people, and take heart in our fearless leader when he said "We will decide who comes here, and the circumstances under which they come." I agree they do seem ungratefull, however they recieved more financial help the the suvivors of Cyclone Larry, but there again, I guess they are Australians, would not want a preceedent set would we.

North Queensland is the fruit bowl of Australia, our infrastructure is a bloody disgrace, we are in Northern Australia the first port of call to refugees, but we don't even have an all weather "National Highway" we had better send an alert out to our enemies, "don't invade in the wet season"

I find it rather offensive that any nation can have the gall to suggest that some places, no matter what the circumstances, are off limits as far as protection of refugees are concerned. The Indonesian request that visas be refused for Papuan boat people has conveniently sidestepped the fact that Australia and PNG are the nearest countries to West Papua and therefore are, whether we like it or not, the place of first assylum.

To suggest that a genuine political refugee should apply for a visa from inside the country that is allegedly persecuting him is nonsense. They MUST have a right of first assylum in the countries nearest to them so they can pursue their claims without duress.

This situation is completely different to that of middle eastern refugees who not only left their place of first assylum but also travelled through many other nations with a view to by-passing the established refugee assessment and processing procedures.

The Indonesians are not just asking the executive arm of government to interfere in the proper exercise of delegated legal authority in respect of all West Papuans. They are also demanding that we commit serious and fundamental breaches of human rights, under threat of retribution. And if they will do that, openly, then pity help the Papuan activists that do not get away.

I predict there will be a pressing need for independent observers to patrol the sea gap between West Papua and Australian/PNG waters to ensure that refugees that are intercepted by the Indonesians do not go to a watery grave. To ignore injustice is to condone it.

The Prime Minster has airily dismissed Indonesia’s reaction to the issue of TPV’s to West Papuans as simply a rough patch in the relationship, confidently saying that we will “sail” through it. The Foreign Ministers has a similarly nonchalant attitude.

Big mistake. Start airing the beds in detention centres. If Indonesia does what its president has hinted at, we are again in for a rush of illegal entrants. Our border “protection” without the cooperation of Indonesia is a joke. We may as well send out an open house invitation. The increased surveillance of the north really means that illegals will be found, escorted to Australia and eventually given protection visas.

Despite Mr. Howard’s tough talk, simply arriving here generally means staying here.

For every one person who becomes a refugee, how many have been tortured and murdered?

This is why the Javanese Empire is so upset.
Confirming that these people are refugees because they have a well founded fear of persecution, means the Australian Immigration Department confirms that torture and murder are commonly used by that Empire.

The bizarre refugee treaties and laws which were inflicted on the people of Australia, not voted for, need to be urgently re-examined.
They are completely unbalanced.

How can we be willing to protect people who can prove their friends and relatives were murdered and tortured without doing anything to remove the cause of the problem?

If we accept refugees we must have the right to sort out the problem that is causing refugees. Otherwise we simply have an endless uncontrolled immigration programme for traumatised people.

The other approach is to lock up the borders and say it's your country, you sort it out (the Foreign Affairs Departments choice).

This is the choice we face right across the world, and is the same choice that is always faced by civilized people dealing with barbarians.

I am not advocating either choice, simply saying that the halfway policy we use at the moment is unsustainable.

In an ever more over-populated world, this problem is not going to go away.

Australia needs no more tribal immigrants, we have more than enough of those who set up their ethnic ghettoes and live a separate existance to the rest of Australians though living on the tax payers largesse and showing very little gratitude.
The fact that muslims used an Islamic nation has a stepping stone to come here proves that this is a deliberate intention.
We only have to observe the strife that Europe is going through to see our future writ large if a stop isn't put to endless illegal immigration.
It must be stopped whatever it takes.

Since Australia proved so eager to help any asylum seekers landing on their soil (eg. the barbaric Papuan separatist terrorists), then Indonesia will help Australia by allowing this neighbouring country to help as many Middle Eastern, African, and Afghan asylum seekers as possible. We shall facilitate the refugees' landing in Australian soil.

This way, Indonesia gladly help Australia improve its humanitarian image by improving flow of Islamic refugees landing in Australia, where they'll be accorded asylum protection akin to the one given to Papuan separatists.

We are waiting for Australia's gratitude in this matter!

Proud to be Indonesian, you surely must be a great example of your people.I wouldn't be proud of you if you were Australian, stay where you are and do us all a favour.

@mickijo:

What's wrong, you cannot accept Islamic refugees but you can accept Papuan separatist terrorist "refugees"?

[Deleted for flaming. Poster suspended.]

'There is credible evidence to suggest that the upsurge in people smuggling from Indonesia had been encouraged by some Indonesian national security agencies, which may have given a green light to the activities of favoured people smugglers, possibly sharing the profits with them, as a way of penalising Australia for its role in achieving the independence of East Timor in 1998-99.'

I'd love to see the evidence that back's up this particular assertion.

[Deleted for flaming and poster suspended]

The problem is that the definition of a refugee is too broadly defined.In the past they were mostly small numbers of elite educated escaping political oppression,now we have the masses who want to escape poverty and oppression in an over populated world.

We'll have to re-define what refugee status is,or become like the poverty traps from which they are escaping.

To the author:

Thank you for your article.

To Realist and Arjay (with whom I rarely agree), thank you for your great posts.

And to Proud to be Indonesian - see other thread. I will not waste my breath.

Cheers
Kay

Is Mr Kevin planning another book with which to bash Australia over the head? Surely it's out fault again. I know he'll twist the story around and find that we are to blame.

SHOULD WE ACCEPT THEM ?

Many of you will observe that I have been very passionate about not accepting so called assylum seekers from the middle east etc, who come to Australia via 'other countries' as in.. MANY other countries, before they arrive here.

I've stated that as soon as they are IN a country which can offer them 'assylum' and safety, to leave that country disqualifies them from the status 'assylum seeker'.

Some probably suspect that my motivation in this stand has been based on the fact that many of the middle east assylum seekers are 'Muslims'.

To a degree this is true. But my opposition to Muslim immigration of ANY kind remains firm, not just those who try to go in the back door.

This might lead to the suspicion that I would be more favorable to 'Christian' assylum seekers. This is also true, in the sense that I believe they will be more socially and culturally compatable.
This is confirmed by the fact that Christian lebanese are not only WAY ahead in employment and income than Muslim Lebanese, they ALSO outstrip our national average. Muslim lebanese are way BELOW our national average in household income and employment (figures released by Monash demographic study last week)

But while my personal views may be this, I remain firm that ANY assylum seeker of ANY religion who comes to Australia for anything other than genuine 'assylum' should be dealt with under our harsh but just immigration detention laws. Genuine assylum means we have to be the closest country to theirs.

I cannot see why the West Papuans did not simply row their boats around the border to PNG ! It might not be the most economically attractive place, but if they can obtain assylum there, it is where they should go ! Why ? CLOSEST !

I sense that Australia might have been chosen more because of its political usefulness and clout, than its 'safe haven' features.

PTBI

You are indeed a feisty fellow (I am being very polite using the word 'fiesty') - your comments would hold more relevance if you could hold off on the insults, after all any intelligent reader to this forum can discern that your claims about European Australians (whether they hold an element of truth or not) is simply your attempt to deflect debate from the true issue.

However, where you really bring your argument undone is by referring constantly to Papuans as 'barbaric' or 'primitive'.

As in your latest: "(eg. the barbaric Papuan separatist terrorists)"

If your view is one endemic throughout Indonesia, then you are adding validity to the claim by West Papuans that Indonesians are treating them cruelly and subjecting them to torture. If you held respect for these people you wouldn't be referring to west Papuans as primitive or barbaric. History shows throughout the world (and in Australia also) that when people are dehumanised as 'primitive' or 'barbaric' then these people are subjected to inhuman acts, such as the ones claimed by the West Papuan refugees.

In which case, Western Papuans have every right to seek asylum.

We could manage our "refugee problem" much better by identifying jobs that simply do not exist under current local pay rates, but which would exist at the rates paid in the refugee source country, and then stipulate that those are the only jobs the queue jumpers can hold.

For example, we have millions of hectares of weed infestation (on farms and in national parks) that costs us more than $4 billion a year in lost production. It is uneconomic to get rid of them at local pay rates so the jobs of clearing these weeds (by hand) do not, currently, exist. But even at 5 times the Iraqi, East Timorese or West Papuan pay rates, a whole new class of jobs would be created where the benefit would exceed the cost of weed eradication.

Such a program, tailored to the pay scales of the source country would go a very long way towards removing the economic refugees from the system. And who knows, our existing outrageously expensive refugee management systems could even be made to pay for itself.

Care would need to be taken to ensure that local pay scales are not undermined by category jumpers. But the local pay scales are already a privilege that is restricted to lawful Australian permanent residents only. We have no obligation to hand that privilege to non-citizens or those who have not been accepted for permanent residence.

Such a scheme will reduce the economic incentive, reduce the numbers of refugees, reduce the cost of surveilance, interdiction and detention, and provide a big economic and environmental benefit, to boot.

SHONGA, You are saying, ‘no room at the inn,’ or in other words , fix the huge problems that we have in Australia first, before you bring in more ‘dependants!’ I looked at working in the fruit bowl of North Qld.after our citrus season ended, in 1996, but I could not find anywhere to stay where I felt comfortable, safe, and affordable. If you are running for your life from a vicious mob, that Mr Tony Kevin, claims, assumably anywhere would be safe, than being brutally killed by these Javanese Indonesians. As I see it, they are either legitimately seeking refuge, or just a ploy for unskilled workers to come in to Work at the many jobs that are available here in Australia, where they can be trained, thus jumping the que. That others have done before, but I do not see how they should be ‘kept,’ so let those who want them here.Put the money forward, i.e. sponsor them. Put up, or shut up.

Proud to be Indonesian, why do Muslims WANT to come to the west to live when their hatred for the lifestyle, traditions and beliefs is so patent? As is yours.Why the massive attempt to go to countries that are totally opposite to Muslim religious ways?
I would like your answer please.
Arjay and Boaz are quite correct. We can no longer afford to accept immigrants at face value, there must be standards set and means of proof of identity be required.
Multiculture must be recognised for the abject failure it is and migration made far more selective if we want to go on with a peaceful, progressive country and not become another backwater of tribal warfare.

For all of Howard's faults, Beazley is far worse. Did you see his comments criticising Australia for the breakdown in relations with Indonesia over the Papuan refugees? He wants more grovelling to Indonesia -not less. And therefore presumably more Australians in Indonesian jails guilty or not, more "cultural relativism" on human rights and a DFAT override on DIMIA refugee decisions. The man's a disgrace!

LOL I am not a Muslim. Unfortunately, Middle East is filled with abusive dictatorial regimes, and many are engulfed in war. That's why so many Mid-East Muslims immigrated to all parts of relatively-prosperous Western world, including Australia.

Poor old Davo and Keith..NAUGHTY boys ! :) off to the sin bin with you.. grr...

Scout.. well said..

Stewth.. *groan*..same old

Perseus.. interesting thought.. about pay rates.. but I often think how great it would be to have a special economic zone around Darwin, utilizing cheaper labor from Indonesia.. paying them like 3 times what they would get there.. and still not being costly. They could be provided opportunities for growing vegies etc.. as well as work..but hey.. we both know that UNIONS would rather see the country die first..oops.. correction.. 'all industries BUT those which are huge, crucial, and suitable for industrial blackmail' like construction.... the rest can goto hell as far as many Union leaders are concerned.
(Doug Cameron a notable exception. Onya Doug !)

So, one can understand the Coalitions desire to weaken Union power to the point where they can actually TAKE some creative steps to keep this sinking country afloat.

But....I digress..back to the topic. Indonesia could to MANY things to annoy us.... the people smuggler point is one well noted. This is also the 'asian way'...not to state things in a 'spade a spade' manner.. they like discreet subtle moves.

I believe our best solution to this, is to simply (but quietly) emphasise to Indo that the problem would dissappear if they did the following:

1/ Stopped the transmigration of Muslims
2/ Gave a greater share of mineral wealth back to the province.

I don't have a problem with Indonesia ruling Irian Jaya.. I just have a problem with anyone ruling unjustly, or in a culturally genocidal manner.
Of course, if Strewth reads this he will be on me like a pit bull on a Chiwahwa yelling 'HIPOCRITE' about the Israelies..but thats another story :)

There seem to be six separate pieces to this puzzle.

1. The Indonesian Government.

2. The Australian Government.

3. Your average Indonesian punter.

4. Your average Aussie joker.

5. Your bloody reffos.

6. Your "aspirational" TNI Generals.

Items (1) and (2) have a great deal in common. Their elite are always consumed by the struggle to remain in power, dominate the economy and ensure a nice little wedge for their cronies in the process. Apart from the "rules" they use or break, the underlying philosophy is essentially the same. (1) is grasping for democracy, while (2) is losing it's grip.

Items (3) and (4) have a great deal in common. So much so, that it's difficult to tell them apart. Both yearn for a quiet life, shelter, food, water and happiness for the kids. The fact that one group worships a prophet and the other a football, is hardly worth quibbling about on this thread. (3) and (4) have vast numerical superiority and all the power in the world, if they could just get their s**t together.

It goes without saying that there would be no (5) without (6).

If only (3) and (4) could drop their stupid bloody prejudices for five minutes, (6) could be eradicated and we could get on with the job of cobbling (1) and (2) into shape.

^^ In this case, numbers (1), (3), and (6) are united as one entity with a common hatred for separatists and all their foreign sympathisers.

Chris Saw, how can you denigrate a fine people by saying they worship A FOOTBALL! Personally I think sports are only good for keeping people off the streets.
Now a fine drop of Scotch. Aha! Now that is worth worshipping.

@scout:

Notice I refer to Papuan separatists as barbaric terrorists, since this is what they are. There is no other way to describe them. Most Papuans are law-abiding Indonesian citizens who actively participated in Indonesian national and political life.

PTBI

I politely request to disagree, you have in fact referred to Western Papuans as barbaric on many occasions, such as

“These asylum seekers are barbaric Papuan separatists”

Please take note that wanting to be separate from Indonesia is NOT terrorism – it is a political goal.

A quick troll through your posts reveals the constant use of ‘barbaric’ in conjunction with ‘separatist’.

This is a pejorative term that you choose to use and for which there is no excuse.

The Papuans who desire independence from Indonesia are from the same stock as the people you acknowledged yourself as being:

“Most Papuans are law-abiding Indonesian citizens who actively participated in Indonesian national and political life”

Clearly not all Papuans agree with Indonesian rule. Western Papuans, as part of the Indonesian democracy have every right to freedom of expression. It appears that their freedom has been curtailed.

By using denigrating terms you are simply promoting propaganda against these people. That is not debate.

If the current refugees are indeed terrorists, as you claim, this will not doubt be proven in time.

Meanwhile, I reiterate that you do your argument a disservice with your vitriol towards Papuans and Australians.

Try to engage in discussion without the name calling and I will consider you seriously, continue as you have been and I will simply ignore you as beneath contempt.

FYI

An interesting and relevant broadcast, “Politically Pesky Papuans” from Radio National will be repeated on:
Tuesday 11th April 7:10 pm
Wednesday 12th April 4:00 am

With a full transcript available on Thursday at:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/

Regards

Proud to be Indonesian, you are an excellent advocate for the West Papuan separatists' cause. It is exactly because you treat them as barbaric and inferior that the Papuans have no choice but to demand independence. You support dictatorship, or at the very least authoritarianism for your country, and so how could they possibly have their political demands for better treatment heard? You also almost certainly would support TNI and Polri's right to torture Papuan activists. Surprise surprise that's why they were granted protection visas, bodoh.... How much time have you actually spent in Papua talking to the people on the ground their about their conditions and aspirations? Until you do that, your opinion on this issue lacks validity.

Scout (Dianne)

Thanks for that last post. Great stuff!

Cheers
Kay

@scout:

For all Indonesians, SEPARATISTS ARE TERRORISTS because they exclusively committed acts of terrorist violence against Indonesian and foreign citizens.

In 2002, these barbaric Papuan separatist terrorists brutally murdered two American and one Indonesian schoolteachers.
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel04/papuan062404.htm

In 1996, these barbaric Papuan separatist murderers kidnapped a dozen WWF researchers, brutally butchering two Indonesian researchers. Only an operation of Indonesian armed forces rescued the rest of the researchers from the evil grasp of barbaric Papuan separatists.
http://www.library.ohiou.edu/indopubs/1996/03/19/0004.html

Indonesian people will always consider Papuan separatists as barbaric civilian-murdering terrorists. We know the true nature of these murderers. None of Australian pro-separatist propaganda can ever change this. We know what Australian whites did on Aborigines. We cannot be fooled by lies of descendents of criminal genocidaires!

@rogindon:

You don't care about the innocent victims of barbaric Papuan separatists, do you? You don't think there is anything wrong with kidnapping and murdering Indonesian civilians, do you? You think Indonesian lives are worthless, aren't you? You are happy to give shelter to Papuan separatists who killed Indonesians, right?

How cruel and brutal you are! Dasar anjing ganas!

Proud to be Indonesian, you usually do better posts than the last one. The OPM has used vioence to achieve its political aims. The bulk of the current independence movement do not support violence. Theys Eluays, a former Golkar leader of the Irian Jaya DPD (Regional Legislature) supported independence (separatism if you like) through non-violent means. The response from TNI was to murder him in 2001. Do you condone the murder and torture of Papua activists whose only crime is to peacefully advocate self-determination for their people?

As long as you support "penganiayaan" for "barbaric separatists", surprise surprise they won't be happy anymore to be part of Indonesia.

@rogindon:

LOL, Theys Eluay a "non-violent and peaceful" person? What a joke! Maybe you think of Hitler as a "peaceful" person. Under Suharto, Theys was a loyal Suharto crony and DPD Golkar chief. Theys' livelihood depended on Suharto's monetary largesse. As late as 1997, he said "separatism is the most stupid idea".

After Suharto resigned and democracy arrived, Theys opportunistically made an about-face, and became a mini-Hitler who spoke of non-Papuans as "leeches and cockroaches" and said Papuans are "master race". Between 1999-2001, Theys and his PDP goons provoked so many race riots in Papua province that took the lives of many innocent non-Papuan men, women, and children (such as 2000 Wamena riots when dozens of non-Papuan women and children were barbarically butchered).

His death by strangulation in 2001 is a just end for such a blood-thirsty advocate of racial violence. After he died, racial riots in Papua ended. His strangulation is an act of mercy as it saved lives of many innocent Indonesian citizens. Now, Theys is all about forgotten and his PDP ceased to exist, curiously even his son Boy Eluay is now working for local chapter of Muslim party PKB.

As for Papuan separatists, for Indonesians they will always be barbaric terrorist murderers. We won't talk with separatist murderers unless to arrange their surrender like Helsinki talks with GAM. We have no interest in attracting common murderer by abolishing murder laws, same case we won't appease barbaric separatist murderers by tolerating activities of separatists and all their foreign sympathisers!

Boaz_David,

The answer to you question as to why the Papuan assylum seekers didn't go East to PNG is quite simple. The walk is too difficult - think Kakoda except following, not crossing the Stanley-Owen. As for sailing, the prevailing winds in that part of the world go from East to West, making sailing very difficult from Papua to PNG. South is much easier.

PTBI,
You are a stirrer, aren't you. You will find little sympathy for Javanese Imperialism here. Indonesia is just a relic of the Dutch East India colonial empire, and it too will fail.

Equating Australia's people with its remote past in reference to the treatment of Indigenous Australians is offensive. I have never harmed an Aboriginal. It is more likely that a Javanese has caused harm to a Papuan.

As to the Papuan Assylum seekers, DIMIA will review their claims, and if warranted they would only then be given that status. Until then, they are on TEMPORARY Protection Visas.

As far as separatists are concerned, every twenty years or so, Western Australia wants to secede, but no seriously considers them "barbarian terrorists" for suggesting this.

@Narcissist:

LOL, your way of inventing fairy-tale excuses for these barbaric Papuan separatists' propaganda stunt makes me laugh. The Papuan separatist "asylum seekers" themselves admitted they went to Australia instead of PNG as a form of dirty propaganda against Indonesia:

"But they decided against the common solution of slipping across the border with Papua New Guinea. "We have not received any serious international attention by seeking asylum in P.N.G., says Wainggai through an interpreter. "We decided that because of Australia's role in taking responsibility in the Pacific area we would come here."
http://www.time.com/time/pacific/magazine/article/0,13673,503060417-1181678,00.html

LOL, we Indonesians couldn't care less about descendents of criminal genocidaires whose status is just that of an obidient stooge of USA. We value your laughable "opinions" as much as we value a handful of dust, we just love bitchslapping Australia as punishment for this little country's pathetic arrogant behaviour.

LOL, how many people has West Australian "separatists" murdered? I am sure if they start murdering Victorians or Queenslanders, you'll very quickly think of them as terrorists.

PTBI,
We in Australia are civilised, and murder by any party even if by the military is condemned as criminal and brought to justice. We do not murder our citizens we have learned to live with difference, dissenters and Republicans. We do not send in the Military to threaten and destroy their homes, places of worship, gardens and rape their girls.

Quote, "How many people has West Australian "separatists" murdered? I am sure if they start murdering Victorians or Queenslanders, you'll very quickly think of them as terrorists."
____________________
I must commend Scout for her posts here I could not have said it better myself

@Philo:

Australia is "civilised"? LOL, what a joke! A country that ethnically-cleansed its indigenous population, stole their land, kidnapped their children, annihilate their culture, and maintained racist laws long after it has become unacceptable, claims to be a "civilised country"? Too funny, you make me spill my warm milk to the table!

If only this forum provides a triple-laugh smiley for me to express how much laughter I am having now..

Philo

Are you feeling OK?

:-0

PTBI

While you continue to use perjoratives and pepper your posts with insults, you remain useless to the purposes of debate.

This is a shame as you are clearly well informed but you demean your own posts with your obvious hatred of our wide brown land.

:-(

> /Ignore PTBI
> The Command was Completed Successfully.

Recently, SBS or ABC had a TV show about a HMS Endevour recreation of Cooks passage through the Torres Straights. As noted by Cook, the currents and winds certainly discourgaged reversing his steps and sailing East.

Personally I think Australia should support any of the old Dutch colonial provinces separating from their Javanese overlords.

Instead of waging a useless war in Vietnam, we should have given Jakarta a bloody nose over East Timor, that they wouldn't have forgotten in a hurry (and subsequent Javanese attrocities) as well as their other colonial provinces.

Jakarta must be running scared that Deputy Johnny has paid up the ANZUS Treaty insurance premiums with out unquestioning lap-dog obedience to Uncle Sam's Sheriff Georgie.

PTBI

"we just love bitchslapping Australia as punishment for this little country's pathetic arrogant behaviour."

WOW...you sure do use colorful language. I cannot for the life of me find example or admonition to speak that way to anyone in Scripture... and I say this of course as you claim to be 'Christian'

Lets try to re-package your statement in more 'Christian' terminology.

"We realize we (Indonesians) have our faults, but this does not mean we cannot take the time and effort to point out aspects of Australian political life which strikes us as being extremely wrong, including an arrogant attitude."

There.. not so hard is it ? You might find that if you changed your terminology your readers will have more sympathy, but.. I guess you are culturally contextualizing your statements in terms of our own culture "Call a spade a spade" :) But there is a difference between telling things as they are, and plain annoying people. This is your next step, instead of going overboard, state your case to the point, without words like 'pathetic' etc.. because as you know...

"The judgement we give, will also be given to us"

Here is a challenge.. 'can you justify your manner of speaking from the life and words of our Lord '?

If you can, no argument from me, but I doubt u can.

It is not helpful to identify your anti Australia remarks with a 'nationalistic' attitude.. even I, will not suggest Australia is anything other than the result of all the things you mentioned about us. But this applies to every modern nation, including Indonesia.

Try to learn the secret of being 'colorful' yet not abusive.

It should not be forgotten that the Javanese Empire also once aspired to include much of present day Malaysia. And it was Australian and British troops in a low key conflict call confrontasi that ensured the territorial integrity of that newly independent country by outfighting Indonesian insurgents. So PTBI is merely carrying on with his cultural megalomania that sees Djakarta as the centre of all things south east asian.

And these people are capable of extraordinary linguistic contortions in support of their position. Note that PTBI is very quick to denounce separatists as barbaric but failed to mention that it was his, so-called civilised culture that had the gall to try and tell the world that machine gunning a funeral in Dili was just a quaint old Javanese custom that "insensitive" foreigners should take more care to understand. Don't worry, PTBI, we understand alright.

PTBI also appears to have condoned the killing of Mr Teys by some unknown, presumably government, agents. No court action, no finding of guilt after hearing both sides of the case, and no court administered penalty, just another state sponsored killing.

And when all this is added together I am reminded of the first lines of a book on Islam I was reading on the Sumatran ferry. It said, "a moslem is he from who's tongue and hand people are safe". So I guess that leaves out PTBI.

@Narcissist:

LOL, are you trying to threat Indonesia with your little ANZUS? What a joke! Australia is a stooge of USA, not the other way around. USA is a good friend of Indonesia, they view Indonesia as important ally. Your other masters, Britain, also consider Indonesia as important ally. USA and UK are smart, unlike the dumb Australians.
http://washingtontimes.com/world/20060313-102838-5694r.htm
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/0ae5e286-bfb5-11da-939f-0000779e2340.html

USA always been a good fellow of Indonesia. Americans helped us during war of independence, while JFK helped us liberated Papua from the Dutch. You must be joking if you think USA will support Australia attack other countries. You should realise your country's position: unquestioning loyal lap-dog of USA. You should start behaving like a good lap-dog accordingly.

@Philo:

LOL, Indonesia never want to annex Malaysia into Indonesia. Confrontation was a favour we did to Soviet Union and China to help Malaysian communist insurgents. At that time, Sukarno's Indonesia was aligning itself with the Communist Bloc. However, Indonesian communists foolishly launch coup d'etat attempt in 1965, leading to military retaliation and destruction of communism in Indonesia. After Suharto became president, his anti-communist regime shift alignment to the Western Bloc. Hence, Suharto abandonded Malaysian Confrontation which is now irrelevant and even helped Malaysia crushed their communist insurgents.

On this one, I tend to agree with PTBI. The US and Britain are respected in Indonesia because they have principles and stand by them. For instance, the former British ambassador to Indonesia Richard Gozney spoke in the Indonesian language on Indonesian national TV in defence of the unpopular decision to invade Iraq in 2003. Indonesians, although most disagreed vehemently with what he said, greatly respected him for so courageously expressing his and his government's view. No Australian diplomat would do that in a million years. Australians are rightly regarded as two-faced in Indonesia.

Australia invades Iraq with its troops and at the same time pays hundreds of millions dollars to the same Iraqi regime it's fighting to overthrow. Typical DFAT. Typical Australia.

Talk about bribery and corruption; Indonesia would have to top the world in that area. Everything has a price even so-called Indonesian Justice.

rogindon,
How wrong can you be about the "Bribes" paid to Saddam Hussein! This was not done by the Elected Australian Government nor with the knowledge or approval of the Nation. This was a contract established with Iraq in a food for oil exchange programme; drawn up by the executives in a Government Company - "The Australian Wheat Board". In their eyes the on top percentage payments was to a trucking company to secure the transport and contract to supply.

That the transport company was partly owned by Saddam Hussein and that he was receiving 'kick backs' is the subject of the Cole inquiry. The results of the inquiry are not yet published nor any conclusions released.

Your conclusions are symplistic, impressionistic and unfounded. We were seeking to overthrow a corrupt regime, not starve the Iraqi people.

The inquiry is seeking to establish: who knew and how much did they know that Saddam was directly benefiting from the deal. Note: We deal with bribes and corruption at all contract levels in Australia, unlike the Indonesians where paying bribes is the way of life.

Quote rogindon, "Australia invades Iraq with its troops and at the same time pays hundreds of millions dollars to the same Iraqi regime it's fighting to overthrow. Typical DFAT. Typical Australia.

@Philo:

Yo fool, don't drag Indonesia's name into your dirty Aussie corruption imbroglio. We've got nothing to do with it! Your filthy Australian corporate world and the high levels of your govt has been proven to be filthy corrupt, deal with it! Maybe you should weep a bit in your corner.

The point I am making is that there is a culture in DFAT and in the Australian Government that allowed an Australian national company, under its very noses, to pay large sums of money to the Saddam regime in breach of UN Resolution 661 and in breach of the Australian customs regulations. If you had a firm government policy on a position, then this would never have happened. If the Australian Government policy is no cash to Saddam, then the policy is no cash to Saddam! Why wasn't this policy known by DFAT? If it was known, why wasn't it implemented? What I am saying is that if Australia had a clear policy on this issue (which it clearly didn't), then the money would never have been paid.

Given today's news I thought it would be worthwhile reopening this forum.

Indonesia is no doubt the most corrupt country in our region today. I look forward to official poor relations with your miserable ungrateful nation.

You are nothing more than corrupt, stupid and hypocritcal scum