Liz wrote:

I once did a professional development seminar on suicide. .snip.. the women had the children to consider, which was decisively discouraging.

Liz, this is an interesting way to put it, as you actually confirm my argument: perhaps if the women who had considered suicide had been in the same position as the men, that is, had been excluded from their children’s lives by ex partners, they would be committing suicide in the same numbers, but almost inevitably it is men who are excluded, rather than women.

Scout

In this topic I have been largely reacting to the attacks upon men. I actually really feel that the way that society has changed that there will be a decreasing place in women’s lives for men. The rate of marital breakdown shows that women want from men cannot be delivered. There are major differences between the genders. Men don’t want to ‘emote’ in the same way that women do, they do not want to ’communicate’, they see foreplay as the time spent standing in the line to get on the rollercoaster rather than something significant in itself.

That is how men are, and before you start arguing otherwise I would suggest that you google ‘David Reimer’

And I am also saying maybe that both genders, where a male / female relationship still exists, should start putting the other person first. If this was the case then there would be no domestic violence, no selfish demands and far more harmony. Where the differences are acknowledged, and women stop wanting men to be like women.

If women want partners like themselves, then they should consider the alternative that Relationships Australia actually suggested – that is lesbianism. Actually it is no wonder that more women are choosing that alternative.

As for my comment about men being smelly etc, all you have to do is look at the case in Victoria where a lesbian killed herself and her boychild because the court granted access to the father, and the woman complained that the boy came back from access smelling of ‘male’. See

http://www.sos-family.org.au/News/newspage2.asp?ID=250

Instead of laying the blame at each other’s feet, why not try this:

“There are bad, self men in the world and there are bad selfish women or (if you prefer to not have one set above the other, in reverse - there are bad, self women in the world and there are bad selfish men … or if you prefer (so as not to demonise one or the other), there are bad, selfish people.”

Now that was easy wasn’t it? No? You can come up with a woman who behaves in a way that represents all women? Or a man who behaves in a way that represents all men? No? Then your generalisations are pointless.

The thrust of the comments here (for the most part) indicate a decided bias. This would seem (also from the comments) that certain members have been decidedly hard done by – by the opposite sex.

Well then, on behalf of all the good people of the world (no matter what the sex of them!) – we sympathise with you for the bad behaviour of other individuals that you had the misfortune to experience – regardless, nay, in spite of, the sex!

Feel better now? No? Then might I suggest letting go of the past and looking to the future? You may just find that the other halves aren’t all as bad as you would seem to believe…

R0bert, Scout… always a pleasure reading what you have to say.

If anyone doubts that the groups behind the publicly funded Violence Against Women campaign are happy to support violence against men, here is more evidence:

Chopper's ad for Govt comes under fire
April 22, 2006

A Federal Government-sponsored advertisement featuring convicted criminal Mark "Chopper" Read is inappropriate and should be withdrawn, said Queensland Premier Peter Beattie.

The television ad has not yet been classified or released and features Chopper Read saying that those convicted of violence against women will be attacked in jail.

"I think (the federal government) has really misjudged this," Mr Beattie said.

"One thing we do share with the federal government is an attempt to reduce domestic violence and violence generally, but I don't think threatening violence to reduce violence actually works and surely that is not a sensible, tactical way to get the community to change its view.

"I think federal government should withdraw the ad, we don't want to send that message out about violence at all."

Queensland Police and Corrective Services Minister Judy Spence also called on media outlets to boycott the advertisement.

"Here we have a television advertisement that claims the solution to domestic violence is violence within the prison system," Ms Spence said.

"This is wrong. There should be a zero tolerance of violence in the community and within prisons."

- From Sydney Morning Herald website.

How much taxpayers’ hard earned was wasted on this irresponsible frolic? How many people in public positions signed off on the development of this ad? It seems to me that their prejudices make them unfit for further public employment.

seeker, I'm not to concerned if Liz and I have very different perspectives on the issues. It can make the discussion much more interesting while we keep discussion happening. As I said earlier we both might learn something.

cabbage, thanks for that info. Some people just don't get it. Interesting to see Queensland Government reps talking about the issue. They are part of the overall problem. The Queensland Health Department has the following gem on it's website (I've posted this on OLO before as well as complaining to Qld Health - no response)

"DOMESTIC VIOLENCE is the physical, sexual, emotional or psychological abuse of trust and power between partners in a spousal relationship.

Most (85% to 98%) domestic violence is perpetrated by men against women."
http://www.health.qld.gov.au/violence/domestic/default.asp

I'd like to see the research that supports that idea that men might be responsible for up to 98% of all physical, sexual emotional or psychological abuse in a spousal relationship. I'm guessing that they work from the assumption that men hold the power in spousal relationships therefore whatever women do in those relationships is not abuse. Any commnets from those who consider the statement on the website reasonable? I've never understood how any reasonable person could support it. For those who don't understand who some guys are so bitter about the system try to imagine what it is like for men trying to get fair treatment from an industry dominated by the kind of thinking in that quote. Then you might understand why "reasonable" makes so much sense.

R0bert

RObert, I think that you are mistaken about the percentage of domestic violence for which men can be held responsible. It is 100%, because when men are not actually violent, it is men who have incited or provoked the violence.

And anyway, in this area, it isn't the 'truth' that matters, it is what is perceived (which is why the term 'reasonable' is such a threat) that matters.

A lesson can be learnt from another area here - that is the way that 'repressed memory' is treated.

Even when recovered repressed memories are patently false - like the case in the U.K. where the 'victim' purportedly was repeated raped and abused by family members, including with knives, power tools and other objects. A simple medical exam showed that she was still a virgin. The people who are treating these 'victims' consistently claim that it isn't what actually happened that is important; it is what the 'victim' remembers happening that is important, and that these memories should not be challenged.

Similarly, in the area of relationships, it is not what actually happens that counts, it is what the ‘victims’ believe that happens that matters.

To give an example: my stepmother woke from a dream in which my father was having an affair – now my stepmother knew it was a dream, she knew it didn’t happen, but that didn’t stop her from treating my father like a bad dog for the rest of that day. She felt justified in this. The dream became ‘reality’.

Now I am not saying that all domestic violence is fantasy – far from it – it is serious and society must deal with it seriously. I am saying that in the area of relationships truth really doesn’t matter, only perception.

This is especially true now that women have become the sole arbitrating authority over relationships, that is, what men think doesn’t matter, it is only the woman’s opinion that counts about how relationships work. Every man knows that when a woman says that she wants discussion, she actually wants the man to agree with her.

ON TOPIC
I think I did mention that in the local police station there is a brochure titled "Never believe HIS violence is your fault"

OFF TOPIC but all the 'gang' are here :)
I've just been to Sydney.Drove up on Thursday night, went to see customer in the morning, had rest of the day free. Thought I'd checkout some of the locations of the 'massive racist' events of recent months.

Went to Telopea Street Punchbowl, and found it to be quite a nice street. Drove through it..no half bricks :) hardly a soul to be seen. Just one obviously MEmale sitting on front verandah.

Went to Lakemba Mosque. Parked my car in side street, and walked alone up and down in Wangi street, past the Mosque,a few people milling around, hardly a sideways glance at me. Very hard to imagine the 1000s of people flocking to defend it orpeople being shot near it.

Went to Roselands shopping mall, not too far away, probably only 1 in 20 people of Leb ethnicity. Maybe just one 'lad' who might fit the type of image we have been discussing. Saw one car load full of them.
Had one dirty look from a ME male in a car.

Came back later, went to Roselands heated pool for a short swim and shower... met a young Leb boy in the shower.. probably about 12, his was dad in the loo.. we got chatting about remote control cars (me and the boy) he was well mannered. His dad came out. I asked how long he has been here.. he said about 30 yrs.

Mosied on down to Cronulla, checked out the 'crime scene' and Northies bar.. difficult to imagine 5000 people there. I saw how the rock pools kind of lend themselves to being 'cordoned off' by anyone wishing to claim them.

Next time I'll go on a Saturday.

Later went to Coles, encountered a Muslim lady with Hijab at the 'oranges' fruit section, exchanged a few pleasantries.

Driving back, one place looked like an explosion in a butchers shop.. 'sheep met truck'