Froggie,
It is easy to destroy a house of card it is another to build one. Come on you could have at least had a go to identify one law that is not based in religious values; which you claim is destroying society.

Quote, "The results of religious belief seem to have proven time and again that religion is a divisive force, rather than something which brings all people together. It seems to lead to violence and destruction, rather than peace, goodwill and reconciliation."

Martin Luther was a graduate and professor in Law, philosophy and the Greek philosophers before entering the Priesthood. This did not deminish his faith in God it rather enhanced it. At the time he looked for reality in faith unlike the Papacy who solicited money for indulgences to build religious palaces. He placed value in one's spiritual relationship to God above the use of secular schemes to build an empire.

Values are spiritual and sacred and come from the very soul of who we are as human. These we identify as implanted by the very nature of God in His creation. That you prefer not to believe in a Creator of our universe does not make your values more relavent than those that do. If there is no Creator in our view means that there is no one to whom we are accountable.

Philo, and yet Martin Luther had his own corruptions......to hold Luther up as some white knight on a steed come to rescue a waiting public is a distortion of reality. For example, it is not for nothing that Luther has been called: "The Spiritual Ancestor of the Nazis". Combine that with his hatred of the peasantry and we have a real beaut bloke.

Froggy: Have a good look around and you will find all the proof you need for a Creator God. Do you really think that many of us believers welcomed the concept of God when we first began our belief.
But by looking around our globe and the many, many universes I can readily see that He does exist. There is absolutely no way, whatever some "learned?" people may say to the contrary, that us, this globe and the heavens could have just happened - we/they were all planned.
I mean what other proof do you require? You feel the wind but cannot see it, you feel the heat of the sun but you cannot see heat, the same with creation. If you want a physical contact then you will have to wait awhile, but it will occur, and you will be so thankful when it does. numbat

Francis,
Martin Luther was not without his faults [I never claimed he was not] but in the context of froggie's point that We owe more to the Greek philosophers than faith in God in making good laws did not deter Luther from his search for reality in faith, while he previously had been a professor in the Greek philosophers.

He had more going for him as a Priest than did the corrupt Papacy of his day. [I am not Lutheran] He was considered a heretic by the Roman Church because he denounced and exposed the money payed for forgivness of sins as sanctioned by the Papacy and maintained a relationship with God was based in confession, repentance and faith. He had a lot more going for him in this regard than did the Papacy. Which you seem to defend with dishonest pride

Philo......who suffers from dishonest pride.? You seem to whitwash Luther's corruption (which extends to this day!) In my Protestant days I was guilty of the same sin. It's when one comes to realize that the Protestant reformers were as corrupt (pride, arrogance, greed, brutality, divisiveness etc) as the Papacy that they railed against. In fact, they replaced one sin with greater sins!Talk about let those whithout sin cast the first stone! You seem to think that his hatred of Jews and peasants was just some minor glitch! Bear in mind that most of the Protestant reformers supported torture etc and that Prtotestants were as "good" at capital punishment for various offences as any catholic. So, those who live in glass houses should definitely NOT throw stones!

Francis,
Many of my closest friends and family are Catholic and they are not into this Romanism v Protestanism nonsence I can tell you they are deeply devoted to God not the Roman Church. We pray together and share the miracle of answered prayer. They as I am devoted to truth and reality as found in God not to some religious dogma espoused by a particular Church. Stop defending the injustices of one against another, it has become an obsession of yours. Look for truth and justice in any man who will bring goodness and enlightenment, its not just the domain of Roman Catholics. On this Forum you are a Romanist bigot