We have been lectured on what Sharia is and is not often enough already.

At least this writer doesn’t take anything Keysar Trad says on face value, and it can already be said that Sharia law is being quietly ‘proposed’ by Muslims wanting to change Australia to suit themselves – the whole 300,000 of them against the remaining 20.7 million of us. (It’s strange how, when we express concern about Muslim immigration and presence in Australia, we are told that Muslims are only a small percentage of the population, but when it suits them, people like Mr. De Brennan say that we, like Canada, have a “substantial” population of Muslims).

Canada, surprisingly for the wettest PC country in the Western world, certainly did do the right thing by knocking the idea in the head. But the writer’s suggestion that the process was entered into without promoting “further divisiveness between Muslims and non-Muslims” is way off.

Nothing could better widen the already vast gap between Muslims and the rest of the community than even suggesting the possibility of Sharia law!

Costello was right. Muslims and other minority cultures have to start adhering to their side of the bargain and accepting Australian culture, law and values.

Differences in law for different people in the same country – including the appalling introduction of “Koori courts” – is and would be an abomination

So, Australia and Canada are similar and Canada did such and such so Australia should too.

Ummm, how about, Australia and Canada are similar and Australia doesn't do such and such so Canada obviously shouldn't too? Can the author explain why Canada are necessarily the progressives in relation to this matter? Perhaps they stuffed up, big time.

And how about all the Chinese living here, are they comfortable with Australian law, I'd imagine things are quite different in China so we really should do more to make them feel at home. And then you've go the Pacific Islanders, they probably have a more tribal based system which we need to integrate elements of too, so they don't feel left out. And there's probably a few Inuits in Australia too, and Mongolians, and what about all the Hindus and the Buddhists, and the rest, has anyone considered if they're all happy with Australian law? We need to be tolerant and change things so they're all happy.

Or, we could maintain Australia's current identity, it's norms and traditions and so forth, the things that make this a great country to live in, and tell those that think we should change for them to get the hell out. What do you think of that suggestion Mr Youth of the Roundtable?

The writer says " ... after a 1,450-year long encounter between Islam and what is now known as the West, surely it's time that we tried to understand one another."

I can accept that. But I don't see any evidence in that statement or this article of any sensible justification for such massive social change.

The Bracks government in Victoria may feel comfortable moving from preconceived ideas to foregone conclusions in implementing a Bill of Rights without educating and convincing the general population. But as much as that is angering many people, any government that moved to recognise Sharia law without mass public support would only further totally alienate Islam from mainstream Australia.

It is up to the author to show us what benefits such a fundamental change would provide for the majority of Australians. Pointing to governments flirting with traditional indigenous law as a justification ignores the realities and difficulties of such law when used, for example, to try to justify the anal rape of a young teenager by her purported husband in the Northern Territory.

Nicely written but it hasn't convinced me to start lobbying my local members for change thanks. It's long on rhetoric and fine phrases but "understanding one another" doesn't or shouldn't mean we have to give up our most deeply valued customs and legislation to satisfy an increasingly vociferous and noisy minority - not for this little black duck anyway.

Regards

Kevin

As we know we already operate under westminster law and common law. Together they're the law.

Aboriginal Australians have a special place in law for historical reasons which are of no relevance to islam or sharia today because as that religion certainly doesn't share anything but the tiniest historical connection with a tiny number of the first inhabitants. Islam is quite clearly trying to improve its market share in that community today though.

We could always introduce chicken sacrifice rituals from Aceh or penis sheathing ceremonies from PNG that would make as much sense as introducing sharia to Australians let alone Aboriginal Australia.

Seeking to alter our legal system through greater religious interference or adopting any notion of a 'dual-system' are both anathema to this character of this country and represents a form of foreign re-colonisation which, particularly given our overriding belief in church-state separation, I am sure is not desired by anyone.

Providing that each and every Australian continues to be heard under the law when it is legally necessary, any other private forms of dispute resolution that do not come into conflict with that law are fine. Community-based dispute resoltuion is not new.

I would also assert that, in line with Syrian American Dr Wafa Sultan's comments about muslims needing to work much harder today to demonstrate how they and their religion contribute good things to societies around the world. Sharia has a lot to explain and to prove first if people are to consider importing it in some form or another into a foreign and vastly different culture like ours.

"According to the treasurer, not only will Australia never observe Sharia or Islamic law, but those who wish to live under it should have no place in Australia."

I agree with the Treasurer.

Australia - like it or leave it.

at least some muslims are admitting their outrageous beliefs that australia has a place for integrating islamic law into our completely opposing system of law.

Or does this represent a situation where Muslims feel that it is time to up the stakes in thier battle for the left, perhaps they feel that the left's ignorance provides them a chance to try and gain sufficient influence to ruin our country.

Soon muslims will be happy to admit they support terrorism, as many admit these days anyway, always outside the media ofcourse. And will admit they hate our way of life and see us as less than human, as many admit already outside the media.

On what Muslims could do to promote themselves as not terrorists. For starters they could give an equal amount of charity to australian charities instead of seeing australians as unworthy of their support and giving all their money to terrorist/charity organsiations run in far off countries.

The author incredibly understands the value of Sharia-law to those it matters to and those that are obscured from its light and guide as is Peter Costello and the likes. He does exemplify an excellence in knowledge of other laws that have been enforced into the current western judicial system.

To begin with, I wonder what rattles others about other people's beliefs and faiths before they have understood and gauged it as an eccentric value yet ponder over action plans that may never be justifiable.

We may plummet historical evidence of its contribution, Sharia Law, but factual history tells us that as early (500 years A.H*) Judeo-Christian judicial system, the current western laws, based their laws on Sharia-law. A classical example is the signing of contracts and paper work for contracts, clearly outlined in the current Australian Laws which was not only an ordinance by Islam to Muslims^ but a clear success in every sphere of justice as in the areas of inheritance, marriage, divorce, wars, prisoners, gambling, charity, and many more. This may seem, to the layman of the western society un-inconvincible debate but the facts that today’s judicial system is nothing different from that of Sharia-law.

For those who out-rightly dismiss such valuable laws may well do so after an unbiased soul search and with exemplified evidence to that effect.

* A.H means After Hijra-; The Epoch of the Hijri calendar is 1 Moharram 1 which is equivalent to
July 16, 622 AC
^ Koran Chapter 2 Verses 178-182 and other

Regards
Mahamood Galty

Sharia differs radically among Islamic countries. Some countries, such as Saudi Arabia, claim to live under pure Sharia law. Most Muslim countries are legally secular and do not practice Sharia. For example, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Indonesia and Turkey.
Sharia is interpreted differently by many Muslims – just as interpretations of all religious texts vary.

Fears that Sharia law may be introduced into Australia are just more of the beat-up engaged in by anti-Islamists – perhaps better referred to as the ISalarmists. If Australia is so gutless that allows its constitution to be altered by a minority of 2% of the population then perhaps it deserves what it gets. (BTW what percentage of Australia’s population are the wealthiest businessmen?).

If anything is to be learned from the ‘sharia problem’ it is that separation of church and state needs to be set in concrete.

Previously I have posted that there is not a single religion that treats women and men as equals. Islam, in particular, places very clear distinctions between the roles of women and men. It is way behind Christianity and Judaism in this regard.

But that doesn’t mean for a nanosecond that women should accept a Christian led government as the lesser of two evils.

To be contd..

As a woman who has spoken out against Christian fundamentalists, I recommend that OLO readers check the posts made by people such as Coach, Numbat, GZ tan, Martin Ibn Warrior, Boaz David to name but a few. Their attitudes to women who speak out are every bit as misogynistic as their Muslim brothers. They have threatened me to an after-life in hell simply because I do not believe as they do.

Islam is just more heavy handed.

Below is an extract from an interview by Kerry O’Brien with Taslima Nasrin, a lapsed Islam woman who now is a self declared atheist. Her experience runs parallel to that of Salman Rushdie’s as she has had a fatwa declared against her for stating that the Koran is no longer relevant today.

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/taslima.htm

“Taslima's style was sure to provoke. Three times married and divorced, no children, financially independent and living alone, she was the antithesis of Bangladeshi womanhood.

“’Fundamentalists want to use me for political gain. What I have written is the truth. I don't believe in God. I'm an atheist, and I believe religion is totally against human rights and women's rights. I have a right to write the truth. Fundamentalists should not have rights to kill me for that reason.’ – Taslima Nasrin”

And AT:
http://www.newint.org/issue289/woman.htm , Taslima talks about being a disobedient woman.

Being divorced and having no children myself, I concur with Taslima that that state is regarded as the antithesis of womanhood by many religions – not just Muslims.

In summary, I don’t care how much Sharia fits in or doesn’t fit in with Australia’s law. While we remain a secular nation, Sharia is entirely moot. It has no more place than forcing non-Catholics to eat fish on Fridays or non-Jews to refrain from eating pork.

What we do in the privacy of our own beliefs is our business, as long as we do not impose our beliefs on others.

Let the debate about Sharia be a warning to us all – separation of church and state!

Not another muslim/islam related article by OLO.

If it is not enough putting up with people like Irfan Yusuf accusing everyone of being arm chair Nazis because they may express a dfferent view to his own, but to have yet another auther banging on about bloody Sharia is wearing a bit thin.

It is not as though he has got anything really signficant or different to say. Not well researched and poorly put together,just to get another quick Islamic barb under our saddles, aided and abetted by OLO.

But this on the other hand, is perhaps showing us all what the end game plan is.

http://www.meforum.org/article/920

Yet another article about how we should investigate the ins and outs of Sharia.
We have our own laws that have evolved and changed as we have evolved and changed. We do not need laws that were set down 15 centuries ago.Nor does anyone else for that matter.
If anyone wants to live under Sharia or any other law, they should go wherever those laws are the rule.
And that is not here.

Nice piece I see the god bothers have jumped on it. Aussie law changes over time and if the population wish it then it may well take up some of Sharia ideas. It already has many because people all over the world are pretty much the same. However I would say that the one must view sharia law just as we do biblical law through secular eyes. Any law governing a people like Aussies needs to have a broad base moral foundation not narrowed by religious bigotry.

"For, after a 1,450-year long encounter between Islam and what is now known as the West, surely it's time that we tried to understand one another."

People who aren't terminally stupid have understood Islam from the very beginning. It's founder and his heirs inflicted it by force wherever they could. Killing and enslaving non-believers is legitimate. It is a violent religion with no respect for personal freedom. It should be stamped out the way other religions which involved human sacrifice were stamped out.
Only a madman would suggest it has any place in Australia at all.

We've heard Muslims here on OLO write about those aspects of Sharia that are great, similar to Australian law, and whatever.

To ignore what a barbaric system Sharia is shows just how many Muslims are fundamentalist, doesn't it?

Why is it that westerners can adapt? I mean, we once believed slavery was alright, although we don't now. True, some of our companies take advantage of the cultures in the third world, but if those people fought against their cruel governments, and people valued life, they could change that.

I found out the other day that China is being built on the backs of 200 million slave labourers, and we know how bad child slavery is in parts of India & Asia. In Africa, children are thrown into the army, or militias, and sadly, a growing problem, many Pakistani 8-9 yr olds are raped (because their virgins) by wealthy gulf Arabs who go there for sex tours.

Sharia is backward. It doesn't matter that Allah told Mohammed that this is God's law. Assuming Mohammed didn't make the whole thing up, it simply means his god is a prick. Fancy stoning someone to death simply because they are homosexual, or killing those who convert to Christianity.

There is a case of this going on right now in the dump that is Afghanistan. I thought western troops gave their lives in that war (if you can call that a war, the Taliban were impotent old men) so that Muslims would be free of barbarity.

It appears they want more. And then there is Saudi Arabia, where being non-Muslim is illegal. How sick. Non-Muslims can't go to Mecca. Yet Islam is tolerant? Only a fool would buy that!

Trad asked for Sharia for divorce disputes about a year ago I think, though the biggest opposers were Muslim womens groups. Apparently, those women don't know their place! In Islam, only the male has a say in the divorce, how civilised.

Canada did try this stupid experiment, but after incessant complaints from, you guessed it, Muslim women, it was scrapped. I believe that to give in to barbarity parading as cultural difference is appalling.

We must always call it as it is. If your 1400 year old rule-book is a pile of gunk, then that is what it is. I can't understand how they all run away from their dumps to come to the best places on earth, the west, yet they are so racist they want their own system.

This is a problem. To see modernisation as a western, white man thing, is simply stupid. Europeans used to be barbaric too, but they have self-criticism.

This is where Muslims are in need of help. They appear to have no critical reasoning component, I mean, if Islam was subjected to the same criticism as we afford ourselves, I believe it would collapse.

Perhaps this is why Muslims get so angry. They know that to consider women half the value of men is illogical, to kill homosexuals is wrong, and so on.

Angry is the man who has no faith in his own identity. You can attack westerners non-stop, we are so secure in what we are, represent, value, that nothing can defeat it.

Muslims however, will continue to react to the q's like: why is it alright to kill those who want to leave Islam and become Christian - with violence, because they are scared and their identity is built on sand, it has no strong base.

Sharia Law in Australia it will never happen untill such time we the people decide , now where was I, do we know what we are letting ourselves in for, maybe we should look at Solomons Laws because those laws are significant today, Solomon was a stallion. needed to be with 700 wives take some satisfying, what about the thousands of none Jewish slaves, I wonder if we continue to support Israel will all "none Jews", become slaves, we need to think of what this world will be like after the Israeli's/Jews demolish the Holy Mosque, many who write posts on these pages support the destruction of the Mosque I question their sanity, even Benny Hinn put his hand up, the Question is where is God? . or better still is the God being worshipped in the Middle East a antichrist disguised as God./ something is wrong because my God says we must love our neighbour.
Sharia Law in Australia , Solomons Law in Australia there are more important things to talk about, we must stop all the madmen before it is too late, Tim Larkin I am sure you know, 128 newspapers around the world published the cartoons of Mohammed, surprise ,surprise, the "newspaper owners" all belong to the same God Club, this will spiral out of control , those who are stiring the pot will fall in the fire, maybe it is time to call on God to come down to earth to put the record straight once and for all, lets make a time and place for this to happen, mangotree

Great post Kenny.

Reading through the many posts it is easy to recognise who the real villains are , I wonder why there are never any posts from Muslims condemning the Jewish reigion , maybe some of those religious bigots who never stop bashing Muslims can tell me why, maybe there are laws to protect Jews from people who might want to put their religion down, any such laws should also protect Muslims from religious bigots. fair is fair, mangotree

FFS,

Galty - Australia is a secular state with secular laws. We have the freedom to openly state that the Koran was changed after the event to remove references to the Banat Allah - the daughters of the the Muslim God. Read OUR Consitition. Section 116. http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/general/constitution/chapter5.htm

"Near it is the Garden of Abode. Behold, the Lote-tree was shrouded (in mystery unspeakable!) (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong! For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest! Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat?

**These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries) Whose intercession is to be hoped for.**

What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female? Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!" (an-Najm 53:19-22)

Praise be to Allah's daughters Manat, el-Lat and el-Uzza!!

Are you offended? Tough. How does Sharia handle the truth? Fatwa!

Again, if you don't like my freedom to quote the unchanged version of the Koran, go to a county that doesn't respect my freedom. Bugger off to a country more accepting of your sharia law.

Kenny,
You are right when you say that any changes in the law will have to have a broad moral base not narrowed by religious bigotry.
Unfortunately it wont happen like that, and isnt doing so. It will be by osmosis, incrementalism, insiduousness. Slowly and slowly they will force change and concessions out of us, as they are doing. Until one day it will all be too late.
Dont believe me, then for starters, and there is plenty more to prove the point,just read the Middle East Quarterly paper I referenced above ( www.meforum.org/article/920)

"...riot officers could be deployed at Canterbury Bulldogs games to target brawling fans, under a plan being canvassed by the NSW Police Commissioner."

"Witnesses described a ferocious attack by up to eight young Middle Eastern men wearing Bulldogs jerseys on three older Wests Tigers fans outside Telstra Stadium on Friday night after a game. Police made only one arrest during the game, but spectators recalled seeing two brawls in the stands, one of which they said involved up to 50 people."

It is Canterbury Bulldogs fans who are being targeted by the NSW Police Commissioner, I suppose he is racist to target the Middle Eastern Bulldogs fans, and clearly Muslim Lebanese, who were caught on camera assaulting other fans in the stadium who Australia saw on the nightly news and in the Telegraph the next day.

Out of all the other teams in the NRL it is the Bulldogs who are being targeted with threats of riot police being deployed at games because of violent Middle Eastern fans caught on camera.

Why is it that Middle Eastern fans are violent at NRL games? Surely some of the most brutal violence at games is whiteanglos at Engish football games, but that culture hasn't come up in Australia's NRL and perhaps the Lebanese Muslims are just filling the void of a violent football culture for Australia.

Muslims don't attack Muslims at football games and the violent assaults caught on camera confirm this, inshallah. It is Middle Eastern mean attacking whiteanglo men. Aussies are too passive and deserve to be targeted. stand up for yourselves.

We needn't be afraid of legal improvements. Society changes so we need new legal tools and interpretations for new situations in our lives. But we can be legitimately concerned by any suggestions out of nowhere that attempt to introduce a whole new and un-related body of law.

Our law's my personal weapon in the face of society's glare. I look the judge in the eye with every legal right of my unknown neighbour in the next seat and every right as an Australian, not as a woman or as a man and certainly not as a member of a religion.

What qualifications does sharia have as law?
What is the need for it?
Why 'sharia' and not another 'law' from somewhere else?
What improvements will sharia bring?
If there's a gap in law, shouldn't we fix that and avoid introducing a whole other species of law?
Who exactly is asking for sharia?
What are their vested interests?
What are the social implications?
What is the jurisdiction for sharia?
If this 'law' is only for certain Australians, how is it legitimate?
What is sharia's track record to date?

Afghanistan: A man facing execution for converting from islam to Christianity.

[Christianity: is "Evil"... well, yes, according to an Australian muslim cleric on Radio national this very morning discussing something else.]

Somalia: African country where (historically naked) African sporting women are damned as prostitutes by non-African religious law.

Pakistan: 80% of women in jail are there because of sharia hudood law.

[Women: Not legally equal today and still dressed by their religion]

For me, sharia is a square peg in a round hole in Australia.

I think social paranoia arises from dogmatic religious beliefs which in turn makes for bad law; that sick societies are created by artificial segregation of men and women and/or sections of the Australian community, and that clerics are unfit and unqualified to make law.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\03\22\story_22-3-2006_pg4_17
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\03\20\story_20-3-2006_pg7_13
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/20/news/togs.php

"Do Muslims in the West want Sharia law? It would seem that some do. A recent poll in Britain found that four out of ten Muslims supported the introduction of Sharia law"

Just thought I would correct an obvious typo... of course you probably meant to say that Muslims don't want Sharia law because 60% of respondents did not support such an idea. Just helping out...

Of this particular poll, how many respondents were women? I would probably hazard a guess at about six out of ten.

Cheers

Well you must be really rattled guys, keep it up.
I think I have found the true points to wiggle you.

As per Narccisst, you are actually damn founded by the facts on your face, I know you've failed on many occassions and that keeps rattling you. I laugh at it

Ciao
Galty

If the rednecks who rail against Islam all the time bothered to discover what "introducing Sharia law" actually entailed they might pull in their heads and shut up for five minutes. In Canada it would have been on the same footing as traditional Jewish law: with agreement of parties, a civil dispute could have been adjudicated on the one hand by someone trained in Islamic law, or, on the other hand as already happens, Judaic law.

There was never a suggestion that it be imposed on the population at large. Nor has that ever been suggested here.

A practical example of resulting diversity is banking. Western banks pay interest on deposits and charge interest on loans, but under Islamic law (and some interpretations of Christianity-based law) charging interest is usury and is forbidden. Islamic banking uses a concept of profit/loss sharing by a bank and its customers instead, http://www.islamic-banking.com/ibanking/whatib.php

Modern interpretations of Sharia law have nothing to do with repressing women, genital mutilation, amputating limbs or a heavenly supply of virgins. See http://law.emory.edu/IFL/

It is often forgotten that only 200 years ago, under British law, someone could be hanged for stealing a chicken or (as the attitude of some contributors to this site reminds us) exiled to Australia. Five hundred years ago it was assumed that if a woman thrown into a pond somehow survived, she was a witch and should be burned at the stake. (If she drowned, she was innocent. Tough luck.)

Next time Islam is mentioned in an OLO article, the usual suspects might do the rest of us a favour by discovering what the subject is actually about before lifting the floodgates on their river of vituperation.

It would be good too, to at least toy with the possibility that Sebastian De Brennan knows something about the subject on which he writes.

DISCLAIMER: I was brought up in the Anglican faith but have long been an atheist. I respect the right of those with religious beliefs to enjoy them without interference, so long as they don't try to impose them on me.

galty, I laugh at it also, hahaha, the term is "dumbfounded".

"... the usual suspects might do the rest of us a favour by discovering what the subject is actually about..." [MikeM]

To the 'usual suspects' please refer to the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law#Contemporary_Practice_of_Sharia_Law

"The punishments include amputation of one/both hand(s) for theft, stoning for adultery, and execution for apostasy."

“There was never a suggestion that it be imposed on the population at large.” [MikeM]

I don’t think Australian law, or the majority of Australians for that matter, would allow “amputation of one/both hand(s) for theft, stoning for adultery, and execution for apostasy” whether it be imposed on the population at large or not...

In its essence, its advocates see it as Allah’s law to be imposed on ALL of mankind and do not share your perspective of cultural tolerance. If it were imposed at all, it would most definitely be imposed on you also MikeM, no matter how tolerant you were, its very nature assures us that such cultural tolerance will not reciprocated to you.

As you yourself stated 'as long as it is not imposed on [you]', which it most definitely would be (travel to Saudi Arabia and expericnce the cultural tolerance of Islam first-hand), you yourself 'might do us all a favour by discovering what the subject is actually about.'

Its middle age practices of “amputation of one/both hand(s) for theft, stoning for adultery, and execution for apostasy” aside, I suppose this is the reason people don’t seem to tolerate Sharia as it is in its essence intolerant itself, be it racist or not to say so.

Yes MikeM, you are correct that in Europe in the middle ages people were burned etc, but today reasonable people no longer 'tolerate' such middle age practices and do not 'tolerate' the imposition of them in any part of contemprory soceity, be it, ('Allah's law to be imposed on ALL of mankind) imposed on us or not. MikeM, do you really tolerate people who want to take society a step backwards?

Sharia Law dictates the death sentence for the 'crime' of apostasy.
For an example go to http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/4823874.stm
There's no issue of it being 'open to interpretation'. All 4 schools of Islamic Jurisprudence (the Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki and Shafii) require the death penalty.
In Sharia you don't get to pick and choose your interpretation unless the Koran and Hadiths are ambiguous and this is not the case for many obscene aspects of Sharia including the law on apostasy.
The author of this article is another example of academe investing a great deal of time in an 'exotic' subject and now he can't bear to disown it.

The idea that Sharia law and western law is compatible is laughable.

It is important to understand that yes, there may be misconceptions on what is and is not Sharia law. Your own article indicates there are differences of interpretations. If there isn't a uniform or consistent idea of sharia. How is a averasge westerner not versed with the nuance of sharia supposed to be able to make a informed opinion?

To form an opinion, one only need to look at the implementations of sharia law. The most obvious are Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Nigeria. Until the obscene, backward events such as stoning to death, beheadings for prostitution and divorce (by a male) by simple saying it 3 times, how can anyone expect it to be taken seriously by a society that values individual rights and respect?
Along with Morocco, Afghanistan *executes* people for renouncing islam and converting to another religion. In fact, only tonight I hear that an Australian man is to be condemned to death for converting to christianity.

In a past where people were uneducated and life was worth little, perhaps such extremes were acceptable. To consider this form of brutal religious governance compatible(or equivalent) with western laws is offensive and tries to revert progress 1500 years.

Cheers

BC

MikeM,
In a world where inflation and growth does not occurr intrest free loans by a society (a government) may be acceptable. But we in the West, bank and invest private money to promote growth and development.

Because inflation occurrs we expect some equity in our investments from loan terms, and the fact that we have benifited others. Jesus taught that he expected growth from investments, merely retaining over a period of time the same talent - such a person is to be condemned.

If we wish to remain growth neutral then interest free loans could be introduced. You invest $1,000,000.00 today interest free and in 25 years time it will only purchase $250,000.00 of property in comparison to todays markets. Shari'ah is not viable in a free market economy. It is a backward looking economic structure - under it nothing changes.

Quote, "Western banks pay interest on deposits and charge interest on loans, but under Islamic law (and some interpretations of Christianity-based law) charging interest is usury and is forbidden."

Australians don't want it so tuff luck.

Galty,
Written Contracts between persons date back to the time of Hamarubbi 1,800 BC and he was a polytheist. Islam cannot claim it first introduced written contracts, such a claim is falacious. Islam merely followed the Hebrews model of the second Talmud of 630 AD.

The essential principles of good law are formulated from an informed social conscience. Shari'ah reflects much of the Middle Eastern mind in the 600 AD period; And according to Religious edict cannot be changed. So the modernising of it is violates the religious intent of shari'ah but modernising merely reflects upon changes in the conscience of people being informed by comparative laws of an informed conscience.

The West does not need to understand Shari'ah, the fact is those espousing Shari'ah need to understand Our laws, and live by them!
Otherwise ship out!

I was interested to understand how Sebastian De Breen would reconcile Sharia Law with Australian Law and value systems in his article. Sebastian got around that little inconvenience by simply dodging the entire issue.

Instead, Sebastian implied that Sharia Law and Australian Law could exist side by side, using an indirect argument. Sebastian pointed out that in some states and territories, tribal aboriginal law can take precedence over Australian Law in remote aboriginal communities. His premise appears to be, that if some aboriginal tribal groups can get away with it, then every separate religious and ethnic group that now resides in Australia could also have separate religious or cultural laws specific to their own community.

The logic in that premise does not impress me one iota.

Understand that sharia in an Islamic state also applies to non-Muslims. Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool. Infidels can have their own laws as long as they conform to Sharia. Gee thanks.

If ever Muslims come to power in a state, all nonmuslims immediately become dhimmis. That is the term to describe the legal relationship of nonMuslims in an Islamic state. Here is a good discussion of that concept:
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=18fsqvs68kpt1?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Dhimmi&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02b&linktext=dhimmi

Here is how Sharia and dhimmitude are working for nonMuslims in Egypt: http://freedomhouse.org/religion/publications/endangered/index.htm and http://www.copts.net/demands.asp. Notice the oppression and severe discrimination.

This is what you get when you let religious laws control society. It is one religion against another against no religion. It is not pretty. Yet Muslims insist they must have their dear sharia. On a side note here is a good discussion on religious-civil relationships in Egypt: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum10/HTML/000801.html Be aware that most of the posters are Muslims, and many are sympathetic to the plight of the Coptic Christians.

Make no mistake, sharia is a perverted system that has little to do with justice and everything to do with control and oppression. If Aussie Muzzies believe so strongly in it, why don’t they go live in an Islamic state? Of course, they may be Muslims but they are not stupid. Logic and honesty do not apply in Islam: Read how Muslims in Canada wanted the right to kill apostates/blasphemers under sharia: http://www.muslim-canada.org/apostasy.htm
If they are no longer Muslims them sharia would not apply, yet they still want to kill infidels. That is the essence of Islam: hate, anger and oppression – and they lie about it all.

How can anyone argue for a system based on the teachings of a man that murdered, raped, tortured and enslaved? Have these people no shame? A few days ago a Muslim here defended the cutting open and killing of a pregnant woman for insulting Islam. He tried to explain it away, without any censure or condemnation of his dear prophet. Do you want people with that kind of morality to control your laws? That is Islam, that is sharia.

John Kactuz

"For, after a 1,450-year long encounter between Islam and what is now known as the West, surely it's time that we tried to understand one another."

The last line of Sebastian De Brennan's article

Great Idea.

I suggest anyone who comes to Australia should "understand" that Australia is not a Muslim country and Sharia law has no place here.

If someone wants to live under "Sharia law", then the solution is simple

Do not come to Australia because you are only going to be disappointed.

Go to Iran or Yemen and enjoy all the benefits of Sharia that you want but understand this

Australia is a secular nation in which the majority of the population neither want, need, understand nor trust Sharia legal principles.

We have enough of a hard time understanding our current legal system without wanting to bother with a new code.

Anyone in doubt of the validity of my view,
I am happy to put it to a vote in a constitutional referendum.

Leigh - naturally, I agree with your view.

"For, after a 1,450-year long encounter between Islam and what is now known as the West, surely it's time that we tried to understand one another."

So true but no worries cuz we do understand each other with out a doubt.

Col,

yeh i thought of a referendum and cracked up laughing cuz it would be so predictable.

Secular and nonsecular are like oil and water..

This is what the Dutch govt is now telling prospective immigrants:

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2006/03/17/2003297777

It would be great if the Australian govt had the guts and common sense to do something similar, but of course the Australian Christian extremists wouldn't like it, would they?

The simple fact is that without Constitutional (S116) change through a referendum, the Commonwealth does not have the power to introduce any religious law, beit christian, muslim, jewish or jedi knight.

Hawke had a referendum of 4 questions, one of which was "Do you want 'Freedom of Religion'". The answer was a resounding - NO. We already have it - or not have it if you choose not to.

Under OUR law, if two parties enter into a contract, and that contract stipulates aspects of sharia law, then the judiciary would take that into account in the event of a dispute. The over riding law would still be based upon Australian common and contractual law.

The immans that oversaw the signing of Magna Carta by John, and the British Bill of Rights of 1689, the Great Writ of habeas corpus, Constitutional separation of powers etc. - must all now be turning in their graves at how the infidels have abused their sole right to the only true and just legal system.

Those Dam Infidels , always get in the way of a good Jihad and an Islamic take over:
Even Russia has the same problems, just like us, and USA, and Europe, UK-and the list goes on and on and on.
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/printer_1136040.php

scout: I am NOT! a Christian fundamentalist I am a fervent Christian. I have NEVER cast you to hell - so to speak. Anyhow does hell exist? I have NOT attacked you because of your beliefs. I attack foolish, brutal, bloodthirsty paganism I may have ridiculed atheism but I try not to attack the person. If anyone gets offended at what I write then that's their decision to be offended.
As a matter of fact I have bewailed our attitude towards women in the past and just wonder how many budding scientists, artists, writers, philosophers etc we have lost. I think our world would have been a better place - though not perfect as women are also human - had we idiot males nurtured the female half of our population in past ages.
To sharia law in Oz. Should it get a toe-hold then eventually it would encompass non-pagan moslems as well.
Can you picture a blood thirsty priest hacking a hand off and then claiming on medibank :-) Then of course stoning women for having the temerity to be raped by a decent "god fearing?" bloke. Then our lamp posts decorated by the swinging bodies of those who converted away from the religion of peace and love. Then one of the finest attributes of pagan islam - honour? killings. Seriously if Australia were to have the barbaric, sadistic, sharia law then we would be back in the dark ages and a completely uncivilised nation. numbat

When migrants take citizenship ,do they not vow to accept and abide by Australian law? Or do they simply promise to abide by the bits that appeal to them?
It should be strictly and vividly pointed out to them that in this country we live by certain rules that apply to EVERYONE, no exceptions, no dilutions of that law, no variations.
Then they have the choice of becoming Australian or seeking out some other country that will suit their wants .
Citizenship is an honour , something that should be very hard to acquire and something that can be removed if the original contracts are not kept.
We should not have this on going argument.There is no argument. Sharia has no place in this country.

Islam is not a pagan religion numbat. It is one of the three great religions of the world; I forget the other two; but I do recall each of them had periods in their carnation where they burnt, hacked, crucified, stoned or generally treated shabilly the odd punter

sneekeepete: I think you might be referring to a Judaism & Christianity. But that leaves out a few of the others like Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and lots of other isms. :)

Your also correct on our own past of hacking and being generally bloodthirsty in the name of religion and its laws. Many of the more repressive christian ideas have had their backs broken by secularists. Immediate examples would be the Magna Carta seperating church & state & slavery being nearly universally outlawed.

Sharia law is in peerage of our own past religious laws. Difference is, western society(and Christianity too) has risen above them. These practises have been left in the past where they belong.. Islam needs to do the same with many aspects of Sharia.

=my2c

So far this week we have seen.
1.Algeria creating laws that bans muslims from learning about christianity.
2.Malaysia saying it will use its Sedition Act to fine/jail any non muslim who criticises Islam.
3.A Palestinian Imam praising Allah for inflicting bird flue on the Jews. etc
4.Iraq's Sistani saying that homosexuals should be killed in the worst way possible.
5.An Afghani facing death for adopting Christianity and rejecting Islam.

Mean while back in good old Oz we have a debate about the relevance of a system of law, deriving from the same religion involved in all the above, and whether it has any place in the wider domain of Australian society.

There are mushy brained dimwits who dont bother to look, read and observe, who have posted very ill-informed and accommodating responses, without having a clue as to where it will all lead, and certainly must be totally unaware of the performance of Islamic societies with, or without Sharia.

As a minimum they must be unaware that of the 10 least free societies in the world, 7 are Islamic.

Then again there are a majority of us,who in our individual ways have bothered to find out, like, numbat, mickijo,Bull, Meredith, Philo, redneck, BAC baraka, and Narcissist. We have no doubt.

There is no place for sharia in Australia and why the subject keeps getting aired is beginning to be its own evidence as to the real agendas involved.

sneekeepete: 1. islam does not recognise Christ Jesus as the Son of God - so it's completely and utterly pagan.
2. Does not recognise Christ Jesus as the Savior of mankind - so it's utterly pagan.
3.islam promotes misogyny, suicide bombers etc - including using children - that makes islam thoroughly pagan.
4. islam follows a false pedophilic, lying, robbing, murderous prophet - that also makes it totally pagan.
4. islam follows the brutal writings of the koran and not the Bible - that makes it completely pagan.
Need I continue? numbat

Sneeky

you are quite right about the 3 major religions and their various historical manifestations often involving the hacking, burning and trashing.

Problem:

Lets look at those 3 faiths and notice distinguishing characteristics.

1/ Judaism.

Strict followers of Judaism believe that if you keep the 10 commandments AND the 613 or so other specific rules/sub laws, you will be acceptable to God.
Judaism STILL looks and hopes for a POLITICAL Messiah who will inaugurate a Millenial reign with Israel at its centre.

2/ Islam:

Islam has as its goal the establishment of a POLITICAL/spiritual world Caliphate.

3/ Christianity:

When Jesus had spent almost 3 years healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, strength to the cripple, freedom to the demon possessed, raising the dead, he asked the disciples "And who do you say that I am" ?

Peter replied "You are the Christ, the Messiah"

The very next verse in Marks gospel is where Christianity diverges from the other 2 faiths where it states:

"From that time, he BEGAN to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer, die and after 3 days rise"

Peter responds.....

NO LORD..this shall NEVER happen to you !(unspoken he is saying "we want a HEROIC,POLITICAL,MILITARY messiah)...... to which Jesus replied "Get behind me Satan you are not on the side of God, but of men" !

They continued to Jerusalem.....the rest is Hisory.

If you understand this, you will understand the central core of the Christian faith and what God intends for mankind.

The Jews could not conceive of a Messiah in terms of
Isaiah 53

"He was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities".

"All we like sheep have gone astray, but the Lord has laid on HIM.....the iniquity of us all"

If the scales are removed from carnal eyes, such that they can see this, -if the fog of 'human' expectation is cleared from the mind, if the heart is humble and contrite, .. such a person is not far from the Kingdom of God

Sneeky i wouldn’t worry about numbat's continued use of the word pagan.

It obviously gives him a sense of satisfaction that no qualification of either the origins of the word or its modern usage will dispel. I suspect that for numbat to concede in the slightest would crack his desperate shell of self (or others) imposed ignorance.

BAC. Well put. my objection to any implementation of sharia law is based, not on dogmatic rivalry but on a commitment to the intellectual process which has (and continues to) removed superstition, ignorance and the self styled moral 'authority' of kings and churches from our legal principals.

bigmal is deluded. "... there are a majority of us,who in our individual ways have bothered to find out, like, numbat, mickijo,Bull, Meredith, Philo, redneck, BAC baraka, and Narcissist. We have no doubt." No doubt? Their minds are made up? Don't inconvenience them with facts?

No room for Sharia law in Australia? Then should we forcefeed Muslims with pork, torch Muslim-owned restaurants that do not serve alcohol or permit customers to bring their own, close down halal slaughterhouses, confiscate banking licenses from banks offering Sharia-compliant products, tear headscarves from heads of Muslim women who choose to wear them and deny divorce to Muslim couples whose marriage has broken down and who have been separated for a year?

Substantial elements of Sharia law are viable in Australia and coexist with secular law.

First prize for stupidity probably belongs jointly to the several contributors who assume that any introduction of Sharia law will be imposed on all Australians. (Good heavens! who by?). That isn't the proposal that was discussed in Canada (if anyone actually checked to find out what it was), and is not a proposal that most Australian Muslims would favour here.

Second prize goes to Philo, who didn't bother to follow the link to find out anything about how Sharia lending works, thought that it is unworkable and wrote that, "Jesus taught that he expected growth from investments".

According to Matthew though,

"12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

"13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."

The bigots infesting this thread seem unwilling to read anything that conflicts with their prejudices, but I will try yet again. Morocco is making progress in developing a modern interpretation of Sharia family law, http://www.learningpartnership.org/advocacy/alerts/morocco0204

"Can Islam Change?" by Ziauddin Sardar is a thoughtful discussion at http://www.newstatesman.com/200409130016

His conclusion? Cautiously, yes.

as a Muslim, Islam orders me to respect the law of land that i live in. because there is a contract between me and the Australian government (visa, citizenship, etc....). so if I don’t respect the law of the land, I break the faith that I believe in before I break the law of the land.
But there is a big difference between laws and culture, for example Australian law doesn't order me to drink alcohol, or have out of marriage relationship, but it orders me not to take the law in my hand and trying to stop these things according to my own belief. so if i don't drink alcohol yes i don't practice aspect of Australian culture, but i don't break the law.
What really upsets me is when the politicians use words that send hidden messages without really saying them clear (i mean it depends on the receiver background).
im a supporter of the sharia law as a system, but i don't want to see it in Australia, because the sharia law is one package (all or non) so if hypothetically we applied part of the sharia not all we will end up with a big failure (as what is happening in most of the states with Islamic heritage they just apply part of it).
Democracy means the people's rule, so if in one day Australians choose to accept the shariah no one can prevent it from being applied, and if Australians did not choose it, it won't be applied (i guess this what democracy is).
I believe what Mr. Costello said is irresponsible because simply what he did he raised the paranoia and Islam phobia in this country without really appointing the problem or the solution (as QLD. Premier said it is just a cheap shot for leadership) the same cheap shot that Mr. Howard used in 2001 election (asylum seekers one

Sneekeepete,

You are correct, in Europe in the middle ages, people were, “burnt, hacked, crucified, stoned”.

but today reasonable people no longer 'tolerate' such middle age practices of Islam, “amputation of one/both hand(s) for theft, stoning for adultery, and execution for apostasy” in contemporary society!!

In its essence, Islamists see it as Allah’s law to be imposed on ALL of mankind and do not share your perspective of cultural tolerance. If it were imposed at all, it would most definitely be imposed on you also, no matter how tolerant you were, and Islam assures us that such cultural tolerance will not reciprocate to you.

Sneekeepete,

Is your point that as in Europe in the middle ages people were “burnt, hacked, crucified, stoned” that Islam may impose similar middle age practices of Islam “amputation of one/both hand(s) for theft, stoning for adultery, and execution for apostasy” on contemporary Australian society?

In any event you implicitly state that Islam is in the middle ages…

Numbat you continue to throw insult after insult at Muslims , judging from your posts you have little or no knowledge of Islam. I am sure you have much information on Hitler and we all would believe you if you said he was a madman who committed great crimes against humanity, now if you were to go back in time to the early nineteen thirties you would find the media promoted hatred of the Jews, and there were many religious bigots fanatics who endorsed that hatred much in the same way you are endorsing/promoting hatred of the Muslims, it would seem that people who write to this Forum are not worried if their posts are full of lies , about a religious group they hate, why dont you look at the lives of Solomon and David because they too committed great crimes against humanity, in todays world they would be looked upon as being far worse than Hitler who never claimed God gave him permission to murder millions of Jews, we all know the claims made by Solomon who had to satisfy 700wives you would wonder how he could find time to execute thousands of his slaves, I challenged your brother Ted to call on his God to come down to earth to put the record straight, I am sure he reallised he would be a fool to take up the challenge , now if the none Jewish slaves had been allowed to take part in religious celebrations with the Jews .they may have not formed a God Club, maybe today you would be brothers.instead of bitter enemies,

Sebastian De Brennan has discovered brains in his undies,and is definitely playing with them.The only reason why anyone is considering this this nonsense is the violent nature of the Muslim faith.It is called gutless appeasement.Why do we not consider Buddist, Jewish or Hindu laws being introduced into Australian society?

An Afghani is now on trial for his life for changing from being a Muslim to a Christian.They say his only hope of saving his life is to plead insanity.Now this is 2006 and most of the Afghanis agree with this law!

Are we that stupid and blind even to consider such notions?

“It is only a matter of time before Sharia law is proposed as a legitimate means of resolving disputes as they arise between Islamic Australians. “

Another brilliant load of crap from a lawyer, just like his previous article saying rich young murderers should be slapped on the wrist. He's virtually telling us that we should accept some form of sharia law being presented to us. Pity all opposing god factions can't see the writing on the wall, that we are fed up with them forcing their useless violent ways onto us.

Others have expressed what religious law has represented over the last 2000years, but we still get these brain dead christians trying to tell us that its a lovely thing to be mentally deranged by religion. To the point where they are willing to accept barbarity in the name of their god faction.

The difference between islamic and christian/Judea religious law, is Christan/Judea have the biggest destructive forces and enforce their law under the guise of democratising or bringing to god the people they have invaded (in a coffin).

Nimbat, can you picture blood thirsty priests, involved in burning people, chopping their heads off, shooting them, blowing them up, invading and destroying their cultures, (read christianity). So whats different from Islam and christianity, nothing, your all despotic in your expression.

You constantly abuse people by referring to them as pagans, whilst having no idea what their beleifs are. Further you assume that your despotic belief is untainted and the only way.

A pagan is one thats unenlightened, that means the religious, in such an enlightened age. Most sensible people have overcome their fear and superstition of religion and moved on to a more realistic and peaceful approach. I don't hear any non believers condemning you to anything, we already know that your belief, has done that for you.

Bd, when are you going to say something that makes sense, instead of incomprehensible drivel.

To The Alchemist.....what medication are on?......change it, mate because it's obviously doing you no good!

mangotreeone1, whilst I agree with much of your post I suspect that the general intent of the comment about Hitler not claiming he was doing Gods will might be incorrect (unless you really intended it to be specifically about the murder of Jews). Recently there was a fair bit of discussion about Hitler being a christain, Hitler being an athiest etc. I don't remember the exact context but a quick search of the web came up with a number of excerts of speechs by Hitler where he claimed that he was doing Gods work. I wasn't able to find the post in my post history. I did another quick search and found the following reported quote from Mein Kampf straight up

Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." that comes close.

You certainly make a good point about David, a polygamist, adulterer, murderer etc. Then we read "…and yet you have not been as My servant David, who kept My commandments and who followed Me with all his heart; to do only what was right in My eyes." (I Kings 14:8)

Apparently God was able to see what was inside and ignore the outside for David so Christains can regard David as a great man and I guess similar applies for Muslims in regard to Mohammed who appears to have done a bunch of stuff that I don't admire.

R0bert

Robert,

Christians do NOT have to regard David as being a great man......Jews might, but take it up with them. Also, Hitler was definitely anti-Christian in his later statements....you're quoting from his earlier statements

Numbat,
I think you have a problem with the word "pagan". A pagan is someone who has no God or has several Gods.

The Muslim and Jewish God are the same God as the Christian God. All 3 monotheistic religions started from the same source.

The word "infidel" is the same as the word "pagan". Christians are not infidels as Muslims are not pagans. These words have been hijacked by extremists in each religion to mean something else.
Likewise "the great Satan" is actually "the great Shaitan" - a figure of ridicule who has no spiritual beliefs. This expression too was hijacked and distorted by the Western media.

The hate and intolerance that keeps bubbling to the surface in most of your posts makes me wonder why you consider yourself to be a Christian at all.
No "turning the other cheek", "do unto others" or "love thy neighbour" for you. You just want to "smite" everybody who doesn't embrace your personal philosophy.

Must be a member of one of the extremist versions I suppose.

Hitler was an anti christ type, and so are many Muslim leaders,who lead their people into same thinking , they are psyched and brainwashed Islamists who demand sharia law which is barbaric and unjust ,so why ask for it. Instead, return to where you New Ozzies came from.
The West Australian newspaper had a true story 2 days ago of a muslim girl aged 13 buried up to her shoulders in sand and was stoned to death for eating during rhamadan.

Also, a 15 year old boy was killed too.Muslims say they fast during this belief but only during the daytime ,they eat and drink all night.

Christians fast anytime they like ,even up to 40 days , it is their choice not from a religious demanding law that cannot be kept at times.
Islam is HARD from HARD hearted leaders .

A man in Afghanistan is in jail today because he converted to Christianity from Muslim and may get the death sentence,the newspaper report didn't mention that he was converted 16 years ago overseas and came back to Afghanistan for holidays and everyone ,including relatives, police and jailers want to cut him into little pieces for his Christian belief.Sharia law !

WE are praying for mercy for our brother in Christ please do that too.
ALL we read and see about Islam is bad ,terror,hate,revenge and strife.
In Isaiah OT CH 43 v 10 we read that GOD said, "Before Me there was no God formed ,nor shall ther be after ME". Verse 11 He says,"I even I am the Lord and besides Me there is no Saviour".
SO where did allah come from 4,400 years after this was written.
He cannot be the one true God .So he is a false god. A counterfeit.

Time to invoke Godwin's Law:

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

The standard convention is that, once such a comparison has been made (in this case by dobbadan), the thread has ended and the point of view of the person who mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost the debate.

You should apologise to your fellow Muslim-haters, dobbadan, for letting them down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Dobadan, there you go again telling the truth, you tell us a story to blame Muslims,"manufactured truth" what about another true story your mates say never happened , it is about a man who was crucified, it would be hard to blame the Muslims for executing Jesus because they were not around, otherwise they would have been blamed, maybe the newspaper you got your information from ,belongs to the same God Club that accused , condemned and crucified Jesus.

MikeM,
I was replying to this comment. "Western banks pay interest on deposits and charge interest on loans, but under Islamic law (and some interpretations of Christianity-based law) charging interest is usury and is forbidden."

Jesus view about interest on loans given to workers Matthew 25:14-28 where they retain the investments growth. Christianity primarily condemns attitudes of slothfulness, greed, theft and extortion - not productive financial growth (interest).

Your quote of Matthew rather shows Jesus view toward greed and a secular use of the Holy Temple. Levies had been applied to Temple sacrifices by the Romans to raise money to build a water viaduct some 30 miles into Jerusalem. It was the use of the Temple to raise money for secular projects designed by Rome that Jesus objected too because of their abuse of worshippers with excessive taxes. Jesus separated between secular and spiritual and saw the robbing of the poor worshippers as extortion. Hence His anger toward Roman tax collectors! Pilate crucified several hundred Jews who protested paying this tax. Matthew was a former tax collector and records this event and much of Jesus view of money.

Mike you have deliberately distorted my view that one law must apply equally for Muslims as for all Australians by this ridiculous emotive comment:

"No room for Sharia law in Australia? Then should we forcefeed Muslims with pork, torch Muslim-owned restaurants that do not serve alcohol or permit customers to bring their own, close down halal slaughterhouses, confiscate banking licenses from banks offering Sharia-compliant products, tear headscarves from heads of Muslim women who choose to wear them and deny divorce to Muslim couples whose marriage has broken down and who have been separated for a year?"

Peter Costello was exactly right - we cannot have sectional religious laws applied in Australia, advantaging some over others. Those that cannot live under Australian laws should seek countries with laws with their compatibility. We cannot have one unified Nation divided by enclave separated by sectional laws. Muslims are here to enforce Shari'ah upon all nations, they will not relent until it happens. Example: <http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/1384188.html?view=print>

Mike M - I'm not sure that dobadan first mentioned Hitler.

I know I tossed in a comment in regard to what I considered an inaccurate statement that Hitler would not have claimed to have been doing Gods will even though I agreed with most of the post the claim was made in. I don't think my post was a Godwin candidate - certainly not the intent to claim that those who have concerns about muslims are Nazi's. I'm hoping the post I originally responded to was not a disqualifier either.

Thanks for the reference, it added some fun to this discussion.

R0bert

MikeM

MikeM, you should apologise to all the Australians of this forum.

MikeM, whatever 'model' is to be imposed in Canada, I don’t think Australian law, or the majority of Australians for that matter, would allow “amputation of one/both hand(s) for theft, stoning for adultery, and execution for apostasy” to be practiced in Australian society, whether it be practiced in no more than 2% of society or not... it is not one law for the 2% Islamists and one law for all other Australians, (which is racist in itself). There is ONE LAW in Australia mate!!

AND;

In its essence, Islamists see it as Allah’s law to be imposed on ALL of mankind and do not share your perspective of cultural tolerance. If it were imposed at all, it would most definitely be imposed on you also, no matter how tolerant you were, and Islam assures us that such cultural tolerance will not reciprocate to you, MikeM.

AND;

MikeM, you and others, "have been tricked into believing that criticism of a belief is the same thing as criticism of a race."

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?archive=022006

^
^
^

MikeM = MikeMuslim...?? It does look like it ;)

Dear Mike

firstly a correction to a point you made in the thread "An Enterprise of Fools" by Ted Lapkin. You said Reuters claimed 'Eta' were "Muslim" terrorists but you gave no source, and in any case the Basques are VERY Roman CAtholic, not Muslim.

Regarding brave witness for Christ in Afghanistan.

Abdul Rahman, 40, was arrested last month, accused of converting to Christianity. Under Afghanistan's new constitution, minority religious rights are protected but Muslims are still subject to strict Islamic laws. And so, officially, Muslim-born Rahman is charged with rejecting Islam and not for practicing Christianity.

Rahman reportedly converted more than 16 years ago after spending time working in Germany. Officials say his family, who remain observant Muslims, turned him over to the authorities.

As so, the prophetic words of Jesus, fulfilled in the life of this humble brave servant of Christ.

18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

[Rahman said "I am," he says, "a Christian and I believe in Jesus Christ."]

21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Mike, Stewth, Dawood and others.. the point about Rahmans case is the role of SHARIA law in its consideration.

It was reported he will be given a chance to recant, then his 'sanity' will be questioned, if found 'sane' Sharia declares he must be executed.

Dawood.. you can speak about 'nuance' all you like.. this IS Sharia, practiced RIGHT NOW in 2006 in a country SAVED by the West.

What happened to YOU when you turned your back on Christ for Islam ?
very little I suspect.

Better still, why not have enclaves of "Satanic Law"

"No creed must be accepted upon authority of a "divine" nature. Religions must be put to the question. No moral dogma must be taken for granted - no standard of measurement deified. There is nothing inherently sacred about moral codes. Like the wooden idols of long ago, they are the work of human hands, and what man has made, man can destroy!
"He that is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom.
"The chief duty of every new age is to upraise new men to determine its liberties, to lead it towards material success - to rend the rusty padlocks and chains of dead custom that always prevent healthy expansion. Theories and ideas that may have meant life and hope and freedom for our ancestors may now mean destruction, slavery, and dishonor to us!
"As environments change, no human ideal standeth sure!
Whenever, therefore, a lie has built unto itself a throne, let it be assailed without pity and without regret, for under the domination of an inconvenient falsehood, no one can prosper.
"Let established sophisms be dethroned, rooted out, burnt and destroyed, for they are a standing menace to all true nobility of thought and action!
"Whatever alleged "truth" is proven by results to be but an empty fiction, let it be unceremoniously flung into the outer darkness, among the dead gods, dead empires, dead philosophies, and other useless lumber and wreckage!
"The most dangerous of all enthroned lies is the holy, the sanctified, the privileged lie - the lie everyone believes to be a model truth. It is the fruitful mother of all other popular errors and delusions. It is a hydra-headed tree of unreason with a thousand roots. It is a social cancer!" BOS II. 8 - 13

Quote from "The Satanic Bible" - Anton Lavey 1969(Originally written by Arthur Desmond Circa 1890 Australia).

There may be some changes taking place in the Islamic world, and that is to be encouraged.But there is no way they are going to rescind some of the more objectionable aspects, such as apostasy, dhimmitude, the goal of the Ummah etc, etc.

There are vg reasons to be very wary of Islam. These reasons are well documented, and the reference source provided by Philo above, is a very good one.

Churchill over 106 years ago said much the same things.

WINSTON CHURCHILL ON ISLAM - SPEECH IN 1899!
Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50
(London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

I wasn't aware that Churchill was a "hater" but thats what he would be, according to the idiot logic of MikeM.

I shall skirt along the sides of Godwin's law.
Bringing up Hitler, and his use of God is an excellent point. Hitler didn't really care about God, but it was a good way gaining legitimacy & power of people. Look what they were capable of!

Western civilisation have secular laws to attempt to avoid such things. Allowing sharia, a leftover from earlier times legitimacy as an equivalent to our laws is inviting trouble. It would be the same for any other religious-based laws be they christian, buddhist or the flying spaghetti monster.

Which law takes precedence when two laws (the laws of the state) and sharia are incompatible?
There are only three ways it could pan out:
* Sharia will be watered down until only the parts that are compatible with our own secular state laws are left, making it pointless to claim its sharia.
* Muslims will be allowed a special status to practise their own laws seperately.
* State laws will be secondary to sharia.

The last two outcomes are unlikely as they have major ramifications for the entire legitimacy of the state, and opens the door to other religions doing the same. Not really a great selection is it?

Lets extrapolate a bit...

Why should a sub-section of the community get its own subset of laws? If one subsection gets it, why shouldn't other subsections? Imagine a mish-mash of ridiculous, incompatible laws from however many religions get them!
Think of how an individual could be tried depending on what religion that person ascribed to!!
- I know I'd happily convert religions if it meant that the punishment was either non-existent or lesser in another :)

*pant*, *pant*. Thanks for the opportunity to extrapolate to the nth degree.

=my2c

PS. Baraka: Anyone linking to Little Green Footballs, that ultra-right wing, fascist, rascist American blog deserves to be discounted from meaningful discussion immediately.

Neverthless, bigmal, there's change afoot.

My own view (historical)of the middle east is it once gave us highly educated, refined, elegant thinkers who offered the world a taste of higher mathematics, great scholarly works and much interesting intellectual thought of the age.

Yet Italy is not "Rome". Likewise, the ME that once was, has gone and been replaced by the stalled thought of old books and the paranoia borne out of segregated lives and dogmatic belief.

Recent polls apparently show that we, as a nation, are also ignorant of islam. Well, as most probably thought, "No sh1t, Sherlock!". So we dont spend every minute of every day for no apparent reason studying just one of numerous foreign religions that lack any obvious historical or theological links with Australia - surprise!!

Seriously, I think we're often turned off by the entire subject because we feel publicly bludgeoned into constantly paying attention to it when it has little relevance in daily Australian life and in fact, sometimes directly contradicts who we are as a nation and where we're going.

So ignorance, if that's what it is, seems one good reason to eschew thoughts of introducing 'sharia law" because it's probably true, we don't know enough about it nor are we convinced that it adds anything to our nation except further division in law.

The constant singling out of muslims by themselves or others, no matter how well-intentioned, creates much worse discrimination here in Oz than it solves. I'll stop to help you change your car tyre ANYTIME, no matter what you think your religion is or whether god caused the flat, I don't care less, its your business - END OF STORY.

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD112106

"The Muslims today - forgive me for saying this - with their accepted interpretation, are the first to destroy Islam, whereas those who criticize the Muslims - the non-believers, the infidels, as they call them - are the ones who perceive in Islam the vitality that could adapt it to life. These infidels serve Islam better than the believers."

Commenters above also made the point that "sharia law' manifests itself differently in different cultures. That makes sense only to an extent to me but it also makes it difficult to apprehend which version is being proposed and how that might work for people who prefer this bit or that rule - think of all the lengthy, costly appeal processes between pissed-off parties let alone the endless argument when, on occasion, Australian law will be brought in to override bad decisions.

Its various manifestations are also very difficult for to understand as these appear often to be in theological conflict over what is and what isn't allowed in islam, irrational or kee-jerk reactions, sudden brazen intolerance of any other people and regularly prone to invoking extraordinarily weird hard-line pronouncements (see below). In other words 'sharia law' whatever IT is, seems today to display all the narrow, inconsistent, haphazard and socially dis-unifying elements that we plan to keep out of our law.

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=9&art_id=14909&sid=7160632&con_type=1&d_str=20060324

Would Aussies really like a Muslim nation to arise here,I didn't trust them before I became a Christian? As a kid ,in Perth WA I often heard Aussies slinging off at Jews in our area,so you grow up with this idea that there is something wrong with others when adults say things without thinking what they are on about ,they(Jews) had handy food shops in our area.

I find that Jews are good law abiding people who keep to themselves and are very intelligent and modern ,but want to protect their homeland Israel. I believe that many non Jew is envious of the way Jews get wealthy and conduct their businesses with great success.

Israel was given to them by God ,otherwise Jesus would not have defended Israel ,as Son of God.
It was not the Jews that put Christ to death, but mainly gentiles (Romans) egged on by the religious zealots(Pharisees) that Jesus was rebuking continuouslly, because they tried to push the laws too far and even invented many (but not for themselves) .
They tried to load mankind down with heavy burdens and demands beyond acceptance ,just like the Muslims and immams, buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs and our own government at times.

All laws came from The Bible originally ,The Ten Commndments.

So, to the atheists and non - believers in The Bible ,I ask what laws would you impose daily ?
Maybe drive on any side of the road ,or take anything you want from others or just have sex anywhere with anyone and take off?
With Hitler I mentioned ,you need to read "Smokescreens", by Chic and some history and why he allowed 6 million Jews to be gassed and put to death by bullets or anyway even draining the blood from kids to help Germans.
He thought he was god .

mikem, your stupid hissy fit posting does you no favours.
Australia does not need to lower itself to accommodate those who refuse to live by the laws they promised they would.
Australia should simply give them a free one way ticket back to the dysfunctional countries they came from. Australia will be the better for it.

dobbadan,

Of the Ten Commandment, only 3 of them are legally enforcable. "You shall not murder", "Neither shall you steal" and "Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbour." Another is perhaps grounds for divorce "Neither shall you commit adultery."

The remaining 6 have absolutely no legal validity. Indeed, I quite enjoy the christian hypocrisy of "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above" - [Jesus pinned to a stick], "or that is on the earth beneath" [The Cross], or that is in the water under the earth" [The Fish bumper sticker] "you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God" [Deadly Sin from a God??]

Yep - gotta love the hypocrisy.

I am appalled at the remarks of Dr Ahmad Abdul Aziz Al Haddad, in the following article in the Dubai based "Gulf News".

http://www.gulfnews.com/world/Afghanistan/10027888.html

I agree that the West has no business interfering in the workings of the legal system in Islamic countries, provided the people democratically support them. That a man has to die because of his religious convictions (or lack of them) is simply unjust. Why are people presumed to be weak willed if they "desert their religion"? If Islam is truly a just and peaceful religion, then it should not be afraid of a few apostates. Surely love and forgiveness, and not punishment, is a better way of getting people to convert.
I could not understand anyone considering to become a Muslim, if they could not change their mind about it, on pain of the death penalty.
I challenge Islamist posters on this site, to let us know your views on this issue, and explain them, so that we can be aware of just what it is that Sharia law represents.
It seems to me that Islam is simply based on fear, like so many other religions and cults. Show me where I'm wrong.

athiests driving on the wrong side of the road. good one mate. nearly as good as numbat's 'if we were killers we would have been created with claws and fangs'.

its a hoot.

wobbles: I have no problem with the word 'pagan' A pagan is someone who worships false gods.
The moslem [no pagan prefix this time] god is entirely different from the Christian or Jewish God - ENTIRELY DIFFERENT!
Can't you read or are you as thick as two planks, once again I state - I DO NOT HATE MOSLEMS [NO PAGAN ONCE AGAIN]I hate their bloody - as in gory - pagan religion!
As for turning the other cheek - I did not turn the other cheek to the nazis either. A bloke would have been a fool to do so - as with the pagan moslems!
No not a member of any Christian extremists either.
Quote from Musa Al-Qarni, a pagan [there's that nasty word again] moslem mufti: "A concept of jihad is a matter of faith and islamic religious law [Note that word 'law'] which lives in the mind of EVERY [my capitals] moslem on the face of the earth {even in Oz, mine again]. The religious education we receive [even in Oz, again me] through our schools, through our religious jurisprudence, our thinking, and our tradition - jihad is part of this" end of quote. Do you really think that the above quote does not include pagan moslems in Australia? If you do you are a fool or a pagan moslem. I have a lot more quotes from "learned?" pagan islamic scholars and leaders. numbat

Welcome to reality Froggie. This sort of stuff has been going on for yonks.

Previously I had listed what I had noticed, just for this week

Namely:

1.Algeria creating laws that bans Muslims from learning about Christianity.
2.Malaysia saying it will use its Sedition Act to fine/jail any non- Muslim who criticises Islam.
3.A Palestinian Imam praising Allah for inflicting bird flue on the Jews. Etc.
4.Iraq's Sistani saying that homosexuals should be killed in the worst way possible.
5.An Afghani facing death for adopting Christianity and rejecting Islam.

On top of this, why not read the editorial in today’s (Friday) Australian preceded, as it was by an excellent piece yesterday, by Jane Albrechtson. According to MikeM it is probably all a mirage, and we are all delusional.

BOAZ_David wrote, "You said Reuters claimed 'Eta' were "Muslim" terrorists... the Basques are VERY Roman CAtholic, not Muslim."

Yes, I know.

But I've noticed that many contributors to this site have a Bigoted and Obsessive Belief that Flies in the Face of All Evidence. I thought so as to better fit in, I should have one too.

My BOBFFAE is that all terrorists are Muslim, including those in the Basque ETA, the Provisional Irish Republican Army and the Marxist rebels in Nepal.

I flatly deny the convincing evidence that the first two are Roman Catholic and the third is secular.

baraka thinks that I should apologise and I sincerely do, for not making it clear that, like him, I am happy to have a BOBFFAE. So now I have conformed to the site norm, I hope people will stop criticising me.

BOAZ_David failed to comment though on a later part of my same post - which was not distorted by my BOBFAE:

[The ETA ceasefire] coincides with the opening in Seville of the Second World Congress of Imams and Rabbis for Peace, sponsored by Hommes de Parole, a Paris-based peace foundation.

The Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, reports http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/695970.html

'At Sunday's opening ceremony, at one of Seville's ancient palaces, rabbis in black hats and coats sat alongside imams in gowns and conical hats, engaging in friendly conversation...

'Seville was chosen to host the meeting because of its rich symbolism as one of the Spanish cities where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in harmony under Moorish rule that began in the 8th century and lasted more than 700 years.'

So hands up all contributors who share the BOBFFAE that, as Philo so eloquently puts it, "Muslims are here to enforce Shari'ah upon all nations, they will not relent until it happens."

Religious persecution did not start in Spain until Christians wrested back control: the Spanish Inquisition began promptly in Castile in 1478.

BOAZ_David ,what is your take on Narcissist’s ‘commandment comments’ above’ ? – I am interested in what you have to say in particular about the crucifix. Cheers.

Mickijo, I completely agree. And apparently it is racist these days to expect people to respect the laws which they promised to adhere to. You have to be culturally tolerant Mickijo, even if you’re called an “f#$en Aussie infidel” didn’t you know??!! (sarcasm)

Numbat, completely correct. the idealists, leftists, liberalists, islamists, Islam fascists, apologists, so-called moderate muslims, and every other fool will;

1) call you racist for posting Musa Al-Qarni comments,
2) cover up the widespread islamist sentiment expressed by Musa Al-Qarni by saying he is just some radical crazy sheik who doesn’t represent mainstream muslims.

It is said that a muslim never lies, not even to an infidel, otherwise he is no muslim. Given this, Musa Al-Qarni comments are likely to be truthful sentiment.

I know the idealistic fools would rather it were not the sentiment of muslims, but hey, listen up to the sheiks, the imams and the mullahs - I think they know islam better than you idealistic liberalist cultural tolerant fools. What about those idiot idealistic fools who were part of the islam, fascist, terror- loving, anti-war, Christian group and who went to iraq to protest the war and ‘protect innocent muslims’……………… well, their headless bodies are turning up dumped outside of Baghdad, it looks like the islamists didn’t care for the idiot idealists either – its like a jew going to Nazi germany to protect the germans… and ending up in the ovens (by the way I am a Christian who holds an affinity to Judaism , I don’t mean any disrespect, but you know where im coming form) ;)

To all the fools on this forum, take yourselves to an Islamic state, or to iraq and try to express your beloved cultural tolerance, you’ll likely end up without a head also.

Except for those [hopefully in a small minority in Australia] who claim that their religious way is the only way to salvation and all others are damned, I would say that most Aussies are pretty tolerant and easy going.

But we've had Christian extremists trying to interfere in our freedoms for generations, often with success far out of proportion to their actual numbers. So is it any wonder that many of us are concerned that Muslim extremists, regardless of how small a minority they may be in the Australian Muslim community, may get listened to by our scheming and gullible pollies.

If a new law was introduced which seemed to make sense to most Australians, and could be repealed anyway if the need arose, then I wouldn't give a damn if it turned out to be similar to an aspect of Sharia. The same as I regard "you shall not kill" as plain common sense and not as some kind of evidence that "God" spoke to Moses.

But if any Australian pollie was stupid enough to suggest incorporating Sharia [as a religious law] into Australian law, the I think that he/she should have his/her superannuation entitlements amputated!

Bigmal,
The Immams ought to-be fearing the judgment of God as the deadly H5N1 strain of avian flu has spread to Gaza. If it's that close it will also spread through all Palestine.

Narcissist,
I think I can identify with and defend B_D on your charge of Christians hypocrisy.
For a start we both do NOT have physical images to focus worship upon as do some religions with their crosses, rosaries etc. Our focus is upon the spiritual aspects of purity of character and as it is manifest in action that blesses and enhances lives. God is spirit and not physical in any form. We do not worship the body of Jesus, but the purity of his character and actions as he expressed. That it was God revealed in Him and identifies the true character of the God he declared. God who is revealed in man as serving others, forgiving of persecuters and enemies.

Compare other religions views of their God who demands submission to laws and enforces destruction of His infidel enemies.

Quote, "Indeed, I quite enjoy the christian hypocrisy of "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above" - [Jesus pinned to a stick], "or that is on the earth beneath" [The Cross], or that is in the water under the earth" [The Fish bumper sticker] "you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God" [Deadly Sin from a God??]"

The fish bumper sticker was never an item of worship or a representative of Jesus or God, but a sign to other Christians we are brothers.

Fish in ancient Greek was spelled "ITHUS" and Christians used it as a Greek acronym of Iesous Theos soterion [?], used during the Roman persecution of Christians, one person would draw or form an arc, and if they were in the company of another Christian the other would complete the sign by drawing a concave arc to sign the fish. It was never a graven image that attracted worship.

Philo, you cannot even spell the Greek word for "fish" so why should we accept whatever else you say. Re the cross: try St Paul: "God forbid that I should glory.....except in the crosss.......".

Thanks Francis,
That is what happens when you do things from memory. But I should have known better. Yes the word is "ichthus"

Every time a religious discussion is posted , we see the same mud being thrown, there are three God Clubs in this discussion and they are all throwing mud, they all claim God belongs to their Club, the mud contains half quotes of rehashed second hand religious fiction, God is nowhere to be seen. a christian is to be murdered because he once belonged to another God Club, this shows how distant religion is from God. Christians and Jews have also condemned people to death for belonging to the wrong God Club, they have also stoned, burned and crucified people because they were not members of their God Club, the death of one Christian or the Destruction of the Holy Mosque in Jerusalem, or the slow death by starvation of millions of children, of the deaths of millions of Jews, we cant stop insane people carrying out insane acts because we do not have what it takes to be one of Gods creations, I brought Hitler into this column , because Muslims now are being treated like Jews were treated in the early 1930s, the climate being created by the hate mongers is bringing the rats out of hibernation , Christians and Jews are calling for Muslims to be murdered, nothing has changed ,

Martin Luther left Germans with a deadly combination; he sanctified strict obedience to the State and taught contempt for the Jews .
The Gospel of Paul from Romans 13:1-2. to "express his opinion of the third commandment" Let every person be subjet to the governing authorities for their is no authority exept from God, and those that exist have been instituded by God, therefore he who resits authorities resists what God has appointed. and those who resist will incur judgement, who were the good people in Hitlers Germany those 95% who obeyed or the 5% who apposed it, how can humanity find a balance in the chaos of existance when those who rewrite history accommodate their political masters

Many of the posts here are written by people who have traveled back in time some up to four thousand years, because they keep saying God said this, God said that, to be truthful they never witnessed any God saying anything, "everything God is supposed to have said' benefits the God Club that puts out the so called message from God, how can anyone believe these hypocrits, I know God exists and I know the only way to make him happy is to love my neighbour, I have not joined a God Club because their foundations are soaked in the blood of Humanity, What amazes me is , the God these people claim belong to them ,is responsible for billions of innocent deaths because his servents are only carrying out Gods orders, maybe their God is a antichrist disguised as the creator of the Universe, that would explain all the insane acts being carried out in Gods name, Maybe one of the members of a God club could tell me how many people did Satan murder, people blame Satan for making them kill,or they say they are doing Gods work, this clears their sinbin of any guilt, who is making God Clubs kill, certainly not the creator of the Universe,

"The Immams ought to-be fearing the judgment of God as the deadly H5N1 strain of avian flu has spread to Gaza. If it's that close it will also spread through all Palestine."

Thanks for telling us, Philo, that you are attributing bird flu to a vengeful god who has deliberately created a lethal epidemic, which will indiscriminately kill Christians, Muslims, Jews, people of various other religions and of course people of no religion. Or will you wriggle around and tell us that's not what you mean?

It appears the religious may be pre-wired to live in denial and lies, thats why they go through life blaming someone or something else. I just can't understand the lack of intelligence, as they go about every day, trying to justify their illusions regarding the world and history.

Sharia law is just another word for religious control, which they continue to use every where. No matter how much they try to justify it, most majority religious countries are at war in turmoil or both. Its any religiously orientated law that we should be afraid of. God fearing little Johnny, his mate Kim and the rest are mostly all in some religious debt.

The introduction of any legislation that gives a right over others, in a physical, social, moral or a philosophical situation, shouldn't be allowed. In a truly equal society, the first right, is to not be annoyed or dictated to by any person, group or organisation. That should also include those having a warped sense of reality and or believe in a deity.

True equality is having the right to be what you want, as long as thats done responsibly, ethically and within the laws of the land, required to allow society to function rationally. No religious expression in public, that would solve a lot of problems to start with. We would have a few people leave, and some very frustrated people unable to know how to relate. But as long as they knew we wouldn't tolerate annoyances, they may even settle down and enjoy life.

If your gods not good enough to provide an acceptable example for others to freely follow, then its failed over the bodies of billions of people. No amount of buck passing, denial, fervent declarations or scriptural drivel, will change that fact. As you roll out your drivel continuously attacking each other, people and the world continue to die.

This is how Sharia works, as manifest in the laws of most Islamic states:
"Article 1 [Islamic Republic]
Afghanistan is an Islamic Republic, independent, unitary and indivisible state.
"Article 2 [Religions]
(1) The religion of the state of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is the sacred religion of Islam
(2) Followers of other religions are free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites within the limits of the provisions of law.
"Article 3 [Law and Religion]
In Afghanistan, no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam . . . "

...within the limits...
There you have it... And Muslims here still want us to believe that sharia is only for their own issues.

These people cannot be honest. Of course, has any of them justified the evil, vile life of their dear prophet? They can't be honest about that either. They don't even want to talk about Mohammad. Islam is a religion of hate, anger and oppression. I used to think that most Muslims were either indifferent or in denial. Sadly, it is even worse than I thought.

Radical Muslims kill, moderates make excuses.

Kactuzkid

Here is another example of Sharia Law, applying in the UAE, that some seem to be so keen on bringing to Australia:

http://www.gulfnews.com/tabloid/Special_Report/10027928.html

So one can be imprisoned or lashed merely for being alone with a woman! Incredible! I also read in the same web site that adultery is a crime punishable in the UAE by imprisonment and deportation where applicable.

I wish some of the Islamists would respond to my earlier posting, but I doubt there’ll be any takers.

Christians are not perfect ,but forgiven (a bumper sticker) we Christians admit that we are not without sin ,all our righteousness is as filthy rags)bible quote) .
Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone, or, if you have a plank in your own eye then how can you remove the splinter from your mates eye. All bible quotes that we admit are true,.
Do you think you are perfect and without sin?
We have a mandate to obey God ,as Christians (Christ followers)

I am sure that you belong to a club,sports,or organization of sorts.

Do you obey their rules,or just do what you like,ignore them or make your own up ,well that's waht humanity is doing nowadays ?

They call it "secular humanistic beliefs".

I will do what I want ,and I will not accept any others ways because I am right no matter what .
I is the middle letter in prIde.
Pride comes before a fall and that is what Lucifer did when God kicked him out of Heaven to earth,he was full of PRIDE.

So you God knockers ,full of yourselves,and experts on religion and Christianity (which opposes religion),better get some facts right as we ask The Holy Spirit for direction. Whom do you ask?

God is love, and He loves you knockers and mockers.
Please expalain how Jesus Christ rose from death after 3 days . Why over 330 people have been raised form death at David Hogan's Christian camp in Guatemala in 25 years .Go to his website.

The original God is still in charge while many counterfeits were prophesied by Jesus like islam for instance and many others .

We don't need a plethora of religions ,God's one is still OK.
Because of man's sinful nature he has to complicate things and demand changes to God's Way .
Like spoilt little kids we want the latest new toy ,etc. I choose a God of love who sent His Son to die for me and you.
Boredom and ignorance , arrogance and unbelief are the norm today,so get a real LIFE.

Why haven't any of the Muslims who post here said anything about what is going on in Afghanistan? For that matter, where is the writer of this nonsensical article, and what are his thoughts?

Sharia, we've been told, by "taqqiya" using Muslims, is great. Even better than western democracies. When somebody has their entire identity pushed into a corner, because westerners tell them, however implicitly, that it's rubbish, they are obviously going to come out fighting.

It's a natural instinctual reaction.

Hence the Islamists like Keysar Trad or the horrible Kuranda Seyit (who admitted he wants to get rid of Christmas by stealth) say that women are actually treated BETTER in Islam, or that Islam is MORE tolerant than Christianity.

One wonders that, if Islam were to face the same scrutiny as other religions, Islam likely wouldn't survive the process.

Sharia is the apostacy law. Sharia is about to justify the execution of an Afghani man who's only crime is that he converted to Christianity.

Muslims are sick if they don't denounce this. Yet, they aren't. How dare there be people in our country who actually agree with this barbaric code of immorality.

No, really, how dare the Muslim you sit next to on the train on the way to work agree with this Islamic ruling. That they agree a Muslim who becomes a Christian should die, which means nothing less than they are totally intolerant, and have NO respect for, your identity.

It's bad enough we don't know what they think about it, where are their leaders, coming out to denounce it?

Where are they? It's appalling.

I can't wait until the ingenuity of the western world, with it's unbeatable morality and sense of purpose, uses it's skills to invent on a mass scale a new source of fuel.

When that happens, Muslim culture will be where it was destined for, before western man discovered oil under their feet. Their whole region will be another Africa, impotent, and weak.

I'll give you all an insight into early 1960'S style Catholic Church when I was between eight and nine years old.

I remember nuns telling us as 8yr olds not have impure thoughts since that was the work of the devil and how they raved on about the evils of original sin.We had the devil in us and it needed to be driven from our souls .We didn't even know what impure thoughts were,let alone be able to obtain an erection.

We used to have bi-fold doors that divided the Church into classrooms and the nuns had their spies out looking for blasphemers that dared desercrate the the sancity of the Church.I was canned for touching a key on one of the classroom dividers as I casually walked passed.

As mentioned before,I've seen 9yr olds canned all over their bodies,and even across the face.This was the Christian Taliban Religion.Not all nuns were this cruel,but just remember what any totalitarian system can do to your freedoms.

I see the Muslim faith the biggest threat to our freedoms since the Nazis,Italian facists and the Japanese tried to conquer the free world.

Philo,

I do apologise.....re-readuing my post I see that I come across as somewhat condescending....that wasn't my intention (must have been late at night when I responded.......at least may I use that as an excuse?)

Arjay,

I know how you feel.....I was flogged mercilessly by my Grade 3 teacher....and that was in a state school As well, we used to get the cane for the simplest of misbehaviours (I blew in the teachers flute once.....fool: he did leave it on the desk right in front of me.

Shalom.

Dear Rex,
I suggest you read the original post I was responding to before posting comments it rather makes what you have said look foolish.

I was responding to Bigmal's point posted Friday, 24 March 2006 4:40:15 PM; "3.A Palestinian Imam praising Allah for inflicting bird flu on the Jews." The Muslim Imam might be praising his God today but if the flu is only a few miles away perhaps what he calls the Judgment of God will soon be flying his way.

I do not see natural diseases as they spread as judgments of God. However that they exist can be attributed to a creative factor designed in the gene pool.

Francis,
With regard to St Paul's use of the cross in Galatians 6: 14 "God forbid that I should glory.....except in the cross." It certainly does not refer in any form or implication to a symbolic representation of a cross. It refers to the actual event of Christ's atoning death releasing us from the curse of the law because of our violations. The cross represented a gallows upon which those cursed to death were hung by Roman soldiers. Paul is talking about a historical reality, not a pendant or article of worship

"The Immams ought to-be fearing the judgment of God as the deadly H5N1 strain of avian flu has spread to Gaza. If it's that close it will also spread through all Palestine."

That's what you said, Philo. The report that Muslim spokesmen allegedly wished the same fate on the Jews doesn't alter what you said. They "ought to be fearing the judgement of God". You make so many pronouncements regarding the ways of God [without offering any proof other than ancient stories], that if, on occasion, you don't expect us to take you literally, then you need to say so to avoid the possibility of being misunderstood.

Francis ,I'm deeply suspicious.In your previous posts you have defended the catholic philosophy,yet you say your abusive schooling experiences were at the hands of a secular state system?Also you seem to trivalise being beaten for using the teachers flute.

You won't deflate my observations of some in that Catholic era of being nothing more than sadistic power mongers.

The Christian Church has been dogged by hypocracy for centuries.It is only now with the revelation of institionalised paedophila have they become more use friendly.

While the Catholic Church has achieved much in the name of education,there is still a lot past injustices that they need to address.To still offically ban all forms of contraception other than abstinence,is the Middle Ages revisited.

Formal religions have little to do with personal spirituality,but more to do with personal power.

I condemn the thoughts and actions of the hirarchy whoo only bother with notions of some god for their own personal gain.

I wa ssurfing the net for info on the trinity for JWS to hear wht is the trinity and found that Muslims don't believe it either (the trinity) and Muhmmad says that there is a curse on allChristians for believeing it,also they have to be killed if they believe in the trinity. Great stuff eh?
To chehttp://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/trinity_brief.htmck

To check it out read the website above that I found it on.

Numbat, I'm not as thick you you seem to think. I'm just sick of the "holier-than-thou" self-righteous opinions and hypocrisy in these forums.
What do two World Wars, the violent overthrow of democratically elected governments, the killing 6 million Jews, 8000 Muslim men and boys and the 800,000 killed in Rwanda all have in common? Who used nuclear weapons against civilians (twice) and is using White Phosphorous and radioactive weapons on civilians now? Who is also using torture and imprisonment without trial?
All done between, on behalf of, or by Christians - the gold medal winners in the killing stakes.

"Apostates?" Remember the Spanish Inquistion? Anyway I thought we won the war in Afghanistan.
Quotes? I can find as many equally offensive and provocative quotes from rabid "learned" Christian representatives. Some crackpot saying something doen't make it so, unless you want it to be true (as you apparently do). I suppose "there can be no peace in the world until the last Muslim is killed" as a prominent Christian said in the US.

Like many others, you are confusing religion with culture. I despise many aspects of what is happening in Middle Eastern countries at the moment but I'm not going to condemn an entire belief system (of which the Middle East is just a part) on that basis.

This has always been a political conflict that is trying to use religion to justify itself (like all other wars) and obscure the facts.
They hate us because of our freedom? Come on! Who would give their life in order that their own children would have a worse life than their own.
One side is trying to avenge "the great betrayal" of Afghanistan by the US after the conflict with the USSR, as well as other ongoing political issues. The other side is simply trying to secure it's energy needs and also trying to make the world safer for Halibuton.

There are forces at work on both sides of this debate trying to force a wedge between two cultures for their respective political ends.

"There is an inner subconscious world view and outer conscious world view. If these are out of harmony with each other, watch for sudden shifts in the inner when the outer becomes strong enough. In ordinary circumstances they are in harmony. In unsettled times such as our own, the new "paradigm" saturates the conscious mind, then diffuses into the subconscious. The subconscious is much less tolerant of confusion, will suddenly make the switch, then return and overwhelm the conscious mind. If myth is intentionally invented it must be "approved" by the collective unconscious.
Hitler said that to understand National Socialism one must know the Germanic mythological operas of Wagner. A revealing quote from Hitler: "We are now at the end of the Age of Reason. The Intellect has...become a disease of life. A new age of magical interpretation of the world is coming in terms of will and not intelligence...there are ascending grades on the way to the achievement of higher levels of consciousness...there is no such thing as truth, either in the moral or the scientific sense..." - Rauschning
"...Hitler attained higher levels of consciousness by means of drugs, and made a penetrating study of medieval occultism and ritual magic." Ravenscroft, T.
The Nazi religion of Nature is an example of the outbreak of the savage primitive archetype from the unconscious into the consciousness.
Robert Waite emphasized Romanticism as constituting a major background for National Socialism. Alfred Rosenberg said that "National Socialism is an attitude". Nazism never claimed to be a rational system of thought. The Nazi racial theories were only a small segment of the vast deluge of pseudoscience that engulfed Germany between the wars. The Nazis, with their antirational attitude, prized illiteracy, as being more in keeping with the proper attitude of a barbarian

Many occult groups share an obsession with Aryanism. A large body of opinion within Hinduism is exemplified by Swami Svatantrananda: "Whatever you may say against him, Hitler was a Mahatma, almost like an avatar...he was the visual incarnation of Aryan polity". "There is no room for the unfit in the enlightened world". -Maharishi Yogi
"The Nordic Neo-Paganism of men like Heinrich Himmler was a harbinger of National Socialism's ultimate goal: the destruction of western civilization's fundamental values. Himmler attempted to revive pagan gods and rituals of Germany's pre-Christian past. In the Bhagavad Gita, one of the texts studied by Alfred Rosenberg while formulating his Nazi mythology, karma demands that one carry out one's duty in a detached way and to disregard the consequences. This detachment or disengagement is taken as equivalent to self-sacrifice.
"Christianity split the Germanic barbarian into an upper and a lower half, and enabled him, by repressing the dark side, to domesticate the brighter half and fit it for civilization. But the lower darker half still awaits redemption and a second spell of domestication. Until then it will remain associated with the vestiges of the prehistoric age, with the collective unconscious, which is subject to a peculiar and ever-increasing activation. As the Christian view of the world loses its authority, the more menacing will the "blond beast" be heard prowling about in its underground prison, ready at any moment to burst out with devastating consequences." -C. G. Jung, 191.
It has been said on many occasions: It is an attack on Western Reason and Value that are based on Christian -Judeo Evolutionary events. With out it, well you know, The bad old days.

G'day Everyone

Irf's written something about sharia on his site concerning the Abdur Rahman case in Afghanistan.

http://madhabirfy.blogspot.com

While you're here go to.....
http://www.sundaytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,9353,18602286-28777,00.html

Read the article and check out the picture, the crim's got mossie prayer beads around his neck! Seen this many times in my travels.

People of an Islamic culture 'CLASH' with Australian society - such people need middle age Islamic laws such as, "amputation of one/both hand(s) for theft, stoning for adultery, and execution for apostasy" TO KEEP THEM IN ORDER.

I refer to an article published in the Sydney Morning Herald:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/driveby-shooting-number-nine/2006/03/24/1143083939654.html

"Seven of this year's drive-by shootings have been clustered in South-western Sydney and are under investigation by TASKFORCE GAIN ..."

I refer to NSW parliamentary notes on 'TASKFORCE GAIN'- IT MAEKS FOR AN INTERESTING READ:

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/HansArt.nsf/5f584b237987507aca256d09008051f3/149d8dc751861a8eca256f4600068447!OpenDocument

"A year ago the Commissioner of Police unleashed Task Force Gain, [currently slated as the MIDDLE EASTERN Organised Crime Squad], onto the streets of south-western Sydney."

"Today I can inform the House of the very latest results from Task Force Gain. They show that in one year there have been 1,069 arrests, 2,384 charges laid, and 117 operations; 122 search warrants were executed, 23 hand guns were seized, along with long-arms, knives and thousands of rounds of ammunition; six people were charged with murder offences, including attempted murder and conspiracy to murder; 117 firearms-related charges were laid; and drugs with an estimated street value of $3.5 million were seized."

"The task force will continue to operate with its Arabic translators and interpreters ..."

"... [TASK FORCE GAIN] will pave the way for a permanent State Crime Command squad, targeting the same types of crime that led us to establish Task Force Gain 12 months ago. That squad—currently slated as the MIDDLE EASTERN Organised Crime Squad—will become the tenth State Crime Command specialist unit. It will join the following squads:

homicide,
robbery and serious crime,
South-East Asian crime,
child protection and sex crimes,
property crime,
fraud,
firearms,
and regulated industries crime,
and of course the Drug Squad."

A State Crime Command squad – the MIDDLE EASTERN Organised Crime squad – is set up to target Middle Eastern people of an Islamic culture who ‘CLASH’ with Australian society.

TASK FORCE GAIN does not target other Middle Eastern thugs who hassle, intimidate, threaten and rape youngAustralian girls, who are told, “you deserve to be raped because you areAustralian.”

Arjay, be suspicious all you like.....I couldn't give a stuff. The fact is, your anti-Catholic paranoia blinds you to the fact that evil is not the preserve of Catholics (hence my point about brutality in state schools).....I know you don't want to believe this but don't be so condescending re the sufferings of others.

I don't intend to deflate your observations....I couldn't give a stuff here either.....the fact is that you believe what you want to believe because you want to believee it.

Re the paedophilia bit.....are you sure it's paedophilia and not ebephilia? Read Prof Philip Jenkin's (a non-Catholic) extensive work in his book "Pedohiles & Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis".
It might alarm you to learn that,statistically there are more pedophiles in other organisations ( schools, scouts etc).

But, of course, it makes some feel much better if they can heap all the s--t on the Catholic Church. This is hypocrisy......an old word that referred to actors who used to wear masks.

Dobbadan, I too saw a bumper sticker today, it said "Iam a Virgin" the small print at the bottom said "this sticker is two years old" the message on your christian sticker is two thousand years old, many things change over time, you say you have a mandate from God, a God that is said to sit on a throne with a gold crown on his head ruling over the Kingdom of Heaven, how convenient to have a God behaving like the corrupt Kings of politics and religion who rule over planet earth, God is not false , it is people like you who are false neednt worry God still loves you , he understands "you know not what you do" you have no knowledge of what God really wants you do do with your life , that is why you spend all day and every day writing filthy hate mail. you continue to display your hatred of Muslims, pretending you are a Christian, no wonder people are turning to Islam, Christian Nations butcher unborn babies, you will say that is freedom of choice on the mothers part, killing a defenceless baby or stoning a drug peddler to death, or murdering someone who leaves one God Club to join another, is there a choice , you say there is as long as it fits in with your one eyed blind bigotry, Mangotree

Dobbadan , any exuse that put runs on the board has you rushing to the Keyboard , the Sharia law debate is a "God Send" , who is this God that fuels hatred , maybe a antichrist, those who worship the antichrist can not see the true God, their interpretation of the teachings of the Prophets ,are based on knowledge aquired at the time of their indoctrination, this puts them at loggerheads with the true meaning to what Christ actually said , the good books present a false unnatural view of our world , producing more falseness in those practicing to escape from the real world, while forcing others who are not already false to become so by coercing them into compromising their conscience, religious leaders never say lets go out and be "bad today" lets kill some people, the killing is done on Gods behalf. St Dominic never tortured herotics more than once because they died, one act of faith that stands out , the burning at the stake of a four year old girl because she owned a cat,accused of being a witch, those christians who stood around acting out their act of faith, sprinkling holy water praying to God to forgive her, a act of faith today is a nod of the head to a friendly army to invade a Nation, you think you are a good christian if you write racist filth, its your way of sprinkling Holy water on the racist fire your act of faith, When Christ made the blind see, he was not curing ones sight, it was the blindness to all the wrongs that are commited in the name of God, maybe when Dobbadan has his blindness cured he may realise the 4YR old girl was innocent in Gods eyes, you seem to think Muslims are guilty of "owning a cat", whats the difference, their guilty of not behaving like the members of your God Club, do they Burn 4YR old children at the stake, do they butcher unborn babies, you need to wake up, open your eyes for a change, mangotree

mangotreeone1,

I like what you have to say.

If only Christians could see what Muslim eyes see.

Islam teaches about a God who created Adam and Eve, who sent man the prophets Nuh (Noah), Ibrahim (Abraham), Ishaq (Isaac), Musa (Moses), Yahya (John the Baptist), Isa (Jesus). Isa was born miraculously without a human biological father by the will of God. His mother, Mary ("Maryam" in Arabic), is among the most saintly, pious, chaste, and virtuous women ever.

It is not a Muslims intention to be 'evil'. Muslims genuinely believe they are following God righteously.

It is not fruitful to attack one another’s cultures or religions in the hope of opening one another's eyes. Our cultures and religions are different, and what is moral and holy to one is not to the other and vice versa.

Unfortunately, Middle Eastern culture and Islam 'clash' with Australian culture and society (refer to my post above).

If one culture declares war on the other, as has happened with Islam, it is expedient for our society to be Realist and realise that the two cultures do ‘clash’ on many levels, not to be emotive and hateful, but to be reasonable and rational that people are suffering because one culture and religion - Islam - desires to impose itself on ALL of mankind, and does not respect or tolerate other religions - Christianity.

It is not that Islam is 'evil' but that an important element and characteristic of Islam is its intolerance for religions that do not follow Islamic truth.

In this light of 'war', it is not proper or helpful to be Liberalist and hold a cultural tolerance which is not reciprocated.

baraka: Please read about islam on the web, in n/papers, on TV. Islam is evil, islam is misogynistic, islam is totally brutal, islam wants to control the world and take us back to the dark ages.
And you say islam is fine - oh! get a life and/or give the 'pot' away and have a good look around. Unless you are one of them with a little bit of "tiqiyya" to placate and fool the infidels. numbat

baraka: SORRY! I misread your letter. numbat

Dear Baraka
anything which leads humanity 'away' from the Biblical Jesus, Christ, Savior, Lord, .. Son of Man, Son of God, God manifest in the flesh, is, I'm sorry to say 'evil'.

Islam reduces Jesus to 'prophet' which has to be an aweful insult to God.

We have no law which tells us to physically 'attack' people who misrepresent God, we leave that to the Almighty Himself. But you know full well the admonissions in Islamic law as well as the Quran which DO in fact urge violent reaction to attack on either Mohammed or Islam.

There is no escaping this, and again, I have to repeat and underline, that this is 'evil'.

Not only is it 'doctrinally/idelogically' evil, it is also 'violently' evil.

Let me emphasise, I'm referring to the 'religion' rather than the followers. As u say, many DO believe they are following God righteously, but unfortunatly, to 'follow' that God must involve defending him with weapons in the event of Muslims or the name and reputation of Mohammed being attacked. according to Islam.

The issue which most characterizes "Islam" as 'evil' is the close and undeniable association of violence with its founder and prophet, his companions, and subsequent representatives throughout History.

In the case of Christianity, the most that can be said is that when secular or corrupt political figures took control, they did evil also.

Such evil and violence cannot be linked in any way to the teaching or example of Christ, or the Apostles or with anyone for the 300 YRS up to the time of Emperor Constantine.

"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father, how can you ask 'show us the Father ?" Jesus.

Since the rabid leftists & Muslims (don't get confused, don't lump leftists with Muslims, as although they have a bizarre union, Muslims are so far to the right they need a new system to describe them. Honestly, who has ever met a Muslim who isn't extremely conservative? If you have, they aren't obeying their own rules!) haven't answered my question, I'll ask again...

What do Muslims, & rabid leftists, think of the case in Afghanistan? Where does their holy grail of CULTURAL RELATIVISM guide them on this instance?

Or have they even realised...hence the silence...that Islam is so far in the past it's not funny?

Don't desert your post, you guys think all cultures are equal right?

I, on the other hand, do not. Although I do believe that all cultures can change, progress, just as we in the barbaric middle-ages did.

While leftists within Islam try to reform it, the Bob Browns of this world ignore them, prefering to have luch with the sickening homophobe, bigot, racist, misoginist, Keysar Trad.

Leftists have also made comments supporting the Islamist cause, even though their "trendy set" would likely be the first the Islamists would purge, on gaining power.

I feel ill just thinking of what their mindset has done for the western world. It is on the crossroad of being ruined by large hordes of medieval filth.

I just read Irfan's response to the case in Afghanistan. He wrote nonsense about there being different interpretations of Islam in Afghanistan.

See what we are dealing with? Whether he is using "taqqiya" on an Infidel audience is besides the point, if he is human, he will denounce what they want to do to Abdul Rahman.

You fool no one Irfan, and you don't even have the guts to defend your barbaric religion.

Why?

Because in your unconcious mind, where logic is set, you know your belief system is wrong.

It annoys me that people so dumb share my planet.

yeh, there is no moderate islam.

islam vrs modern civilisation.

for all who do not want australia's legal system to become even more bogged down in religious notions, you may be interested to know that at least some australian law schools (viz university of melbourne, for example) actually have a 'sharia law' course. this is troubling. if it were a course on 'customary law' - including aboriginal customary law, jewish law, sharia law, customary law from various african nations, etc, then perhaps this may be appropriate for teaching in a law school. if it were a course in cultural studies, then again, that may be appropriate. however, why a law school at an australian university should have a course solely devoted to sharia law is questionable, and should be questioned - strongly.

true it is that much in the british legal system came from ecclesiastical law - but this doesn't mean that we should introduce into the system yet more law/s based in religion. the great struggle between the ecclesiastical courts and the common law courts had meaning. why would we revert to more religion-in-law, or religious-based law?

women (and some decent men) have fought strongly for women's rights to be gained and affirmed within the legal system - even having to fight for the right of women to be classed as human - as 'persons'. this is not the time to backtrack on the extension of all human rights to women and an enhancement of human rights for all, rather than narrowing and limiting the rights of all human beings, or promoting an elite which has rights, and subordinates who do not.

there is enough backtracking going on in the secular world, and secular law, without giving an added fillip to this by embracing religious laws (whatever the religion) that are inimical to the rights of women and hence, to the rights of all human beings.

Boaz David, your post shows how mixed up you are, you say"Islam reduces Jesus to "Prophet" which has to be an aweful insult to God".
Is the Prophet Moses a insult to God,? Moses is responsible for writing the articals of association for your God Club those articals have been changed many times Moses recieved Ten Promises from God. it was Solomon who turned them into commandments, when people love each other they make promises not commands, God loves all of us, its a pity you are unable to understand the real message , maybe you can tell me why your God club had to take out a contract with God , when I ask someone to sign a contract I do that because I do not trust them, it would seem you and your mates posting here .have one thing in common you are reduced to throwing insults, and have great difficulty in identifying with the truth, maybe you should make claims that God is prompting you to write such filth, your God Club have managed so far to hoodwink humanity by saying God promised you the land of Palestine, Jesus was right when he said "forgive them father they know not what they do" mango tree

mangotreeone1,

Mangotreeone1, there is absolutely NOTHING in BOAZ_David’s comments which show him to be “mixed up”

BOAZ David’s comments are clear – he does not say a prophet is in itself an insult to God – how perplexing for you to say so – but he suggests that Jesus,the Messiah, is much more than a prophet. He lay down his life as The Son of God, the highest of all creations. For Islam to say he is just a man and a prophet ‘pisses’ on the significance of the sacrifice and on the highest act of love the world has ever seen.

The “Palestine” lovers are so concerned with a right to a state for a completely new and unprecedented nationality, whereas for some reason the right to self-determination for the world’s oldest nationality— one which has acted, by any moral barometer, with infinitely more compassion, civilization, and care for human life than the new-fangled murderous one he is championing—seems to be extremely limited if it exists at all. That is the classic definition of anti-Semitism: one standard for everyone else, and then an impossible one for the Jews.

As I posted above, it is not proper or helpful to be Liberalist and hold a cultural tolerance which is not reciprocated.

(refer to mypost onMiddleEasternCrime and TASKFORCE GAIN above).

Middle Eastern and Muslims "clash" so violently with Australian society that a State Command on par with homicide, the drug squad, fraud etc is RESERVED SOLELY TO TARGET ASOCIAL MIDDLE EASTERN CULTURE MUSLIMS - as I posted above, I know of white Anglos who are being targeted by racist Muslims and young Australian girls who are hassled, intimidated threatened and raped, and told "you deserve to be raped because you are Australian" - I realise, not emotively, but as a Realist, that it is NOT in our interest as a society to be culturaly tolerant to such asocial racist Islamists, who do not reciprocate, who spit on young Australian primary school children who are lining up for ChristmansCarols, who spray the hall with bullets and burn down two churches.

The only valid argument to introduce Shari'ah is to look at countries and societies that actually practise such laws. If any modern moderate Muslim apoligist can demonstrate it as sign of an advanced and civilised society; where are the examples?.

The modernising might be happening in the minds of progressive Muslims influenced by Western equal justice for all concepts; but it will not be the moderates that rise to the top of politics in the practise and enforcement of such laws. Compromise is a corruption of their concepts of Divine edicts. Their sign of divinity is absolute power, and unquestionable submission to their concept of Allah and the Koran.

Baraka, it will not work , using the name of Jesus to promote your hatred of all Muslims,
Your posts identify with a troubled sick mind. you say you know of Anglo Whites being targeted by Muslims. I know of Anglo Whites targeting muslims , this post is a reaction to some of the filth they post on this thread, we are all the children of God like it or not, you said Muslims burned down two Christian Churches, anglowhite/ red necks burned down 14 Baptist Churches in America recently, African Americans worshiped in those churches, I have never seen a post from you condemning any white anglo for racist bigotry, I wonder why, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Jesus made the blind see, why did he not cure your blindness, blind guides can not tell you the colour of the flowers, so why are you blinded by colour, mangotreone.

The law is an evolving tradition, and will continue to evolve in Australia and all other countries. Traditions of law influence eachother and, in a different way, the people of a country wish to influence the laws they live under. The difference is perhaps the means.
It's very nice that the author has found some nice and caring aspects to sharia law as it is practiced. I suspect, however, that these cases
are not in the majority.
Australia has, from the outset of european settlement, sought to make laws on a secular basis (whilst acknowledging a Christian basis, it then ignores it pretty completely).
Sharia law is the broad term for any law based on any interpretation
of the Koran and Hadith, and is avowedly non-secular. Countries such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Hammas in Palestine, regard Sharia as divine and above man-made laws.
This aspect of Sharia law is to be utterly rejected. Australians live in a secular society, where laws are made for all on the basis of best available knowledge and reason, not on anyone's interpretation of 'god'. To suggest that sharia law could play a part (alongside?) Australian secular law is to consign a number of Australians to the 7th century pre-feudal whims of an arabian charlatan. Australians deserve the protection of Australian law.

mangotreeone1,

I post about Australia and Australian society - what happens or does not happen in the US is not pertinent to what is happening in Australian society.

Let us put it into context, mangotreeone1, NO Anglo in Australia threatened to rape young women and stabbed a man, breaking the knife off in his back, shot at primary school children singing Christmas Carols, burnt down a church... I am surprised you do not speak out against the things happening in Australia, mangotreeone1...

mangotreeone1, you state I have a, "hatred for all Muslims". I do not have a hatred for one Muslim, let alone "all Muslims". As I posted above, I am a Realist, I am not emotive about culture or religion - I merely post about documented racist Islam, and state that it is not in our interest to be culturally tolerant when it is not reciprocated, and young Australian girls are suffering in our society.

It surprises me that you respond to a post outlining a documented asocial and racist Islam, and state that I have a, "hatred for all Muslims". I am in effect speaking out against the racists, be it the KKK or racist Muslims, and you come at me and state that I am the racist one with hatred... Had my post outlined the KKK and not the racist Muslims you would have no complaints ;)

When Muslims state to a young Australian girl, as stated in court documents, "you deserve to be raped because you are Australian" it is clear who the racist ones are - I am NOT racist for posting it - and mangotreeone1, you SHOULD be more interested in the Muslim racists who stated this in a rape of a young girl, and less interested in myself for having posted it...

It says a lot about your morals, mangotreeone1, when you are more interested in myself for having posted facts about racist Muslims in Australian society, and LESS interested in the young girl who has suffered a rape based on racial lines... do you have morals mangotreeone1?

SHAME mangotreeone1, SHAME SHAME SHAME

Welll said Baraka (aka Darren Hunch :)

Your point is superb ! "Why indeed" is mango more interested in YOU than in the truth you post ? hmmmmm *thinks*

Why is Mango trying to assasinate YOUR character than critically assess your actual arguments ? *more thinking*....

Mango.. you don't sound very rational there mate.. you must be a refugee from the Green Left Weekly.. though Im sure in more casual circumstances you can hold a convo. But here.. you are just 'ranting'.

No insult intended, just making pertinent observations as I see them.

I really think you can do so much better.. all you have to do is scrutinize peoples ARGUMENTS.

The issue of Sharia law is highlighted yet again in Afghanistan, as they judge declared they will withdraw the charges because of questionable sanity of the Christian ex muslim ! This is EXACTLY Sharia law. If he is sane he must be killed. Even with this, we hear that the local Imams are threatening to get him killed by a mob if he is freed. They are the LEADERS of Islam.. surely they know there 'Sharia' ? Yes, of course they do !

camo,
I agree: "The law is an evolving tradition."

Patriarchs Abraham and Job lived under Hammurabi polytheistic law. Moses developed laws to suit Israel's particular monotheistic society after leaving Egypt. Their laws suited their situation; they were not absolutes as are creational laws.

Israel's laws from Moses till Talmud one underwent revisional changes. However post the Babylonian-to-Roman occupation there were Jewish cults that developed their own legal interpretations [eg first Talmud] that applied to their isolated societies.

Jesus outspoken against the burdensome nature of the Pharisees and Sadducee laws incurred their wrath. Jesus and Paul introduced a different approach to laws presenting grace, and forgiveness to lawbreakers. This angered the religious zealots and it was under their interpretation of the law Jesus was crucified as a blasphemer and Paul condemned as a violator.

After the Jews dispersion AD 70 a group of zealots that fled to Arabia in-about 600 AD developed Talmud 2. This had a profound influence upon Mohamed to monotheism and the law. Influenced by their genetic heritage from Abraham and with the strict discipline of Jewish zealots to their monotheistic faith and religious laws Mohamed developed Shari'ah. Shari'ah-is-not-divine-law!

There are those that believe that the more ancient the laws the more divine authority they carry. This has not been the evidence of 4,000 years of Biblical revelation; those that wish to take us back to ancient traditions have failed to recognise the developing wisdom and revelation that time has exposed.

Traditional law can be challenged is amplified in the words and attitudes of Jesus towards religious zealots. See John 8, where he releases an adulterous woman on the basis that her accusers were themselves sinners but they would have stoned to death.

Unfortunately one man assuming total authority for all time has given us Shari'ah and it cannot be questioned or changed. However I would think that other cultures during the same period had much more civilised societies. Buddhists would probably be an example. I cannot say much for the Roman Empire at the time, even though calling itself Christian.

CAMO
you said "this 'aspect' of Sharia law must be utterly rejected"
i.e. that it has a divine foundation.

I say that Sharia Law as a whole must be UTTERLY rejected BECAUSE of that foundation. Your comment suggested the law might have some redeeming value apart from its supposed/claimed divine mandate.

Well, Sharia cannot be understood apart 'from' its claimed representation of the Law of Allah. So, I say send it back to Hell where it came from.

Our Secular law having a Judao/Christian heritage, which is then ignored.. It should be said clearly that there is no concept of 'Christian' "Law" for a state. But the heritage as such is this:

"Do for others as you would have them do for you"

To the extent that this is fulfilled, Christians would be happy. We are not waiting in the wings to re-construct the Law of Moses in society, though we do wish to influence the Law on the basis of our democratic involvement.

I'll give you an insight of how I feel on ONE branch of law which I find most distasteful to put it mildly.

"Environmental Law" in the sense that the welfare of a gang of white cockatoos which strip every skeric of fruit from my fruit trees (100% this year) is placed above my own human interests.

Yesterday an environmental consultant came out to my place to survey for the sake of a buyer, what they must keep and what can be removed.
He also explained about trees on the property next door (which will be part of a sale settlement for ours). I felt my temperature rising with every syllable as he basically said "The Galahs are more important than you", whereupon I thought to myself "They have allllll of the Dandenongs to breed in (Im at the foot of them) why should I have to give them MORE places ?"

So, given the democratic opportunity I would CHANGE these laws to be in OUR human interest, rather than "They worshipped the creature rather than the Creator" (Romans 1)

jocelynne

Your post is a small pool of sanity in the storm of pointless religious argument that continues on this thread.

All the seriously religious, from all sides, manage to achieve is the absolute necessity for the separation of church and state.

A big no to all religious law from Sharia through to ecclesiastical principalities.

NO TO RELIGIOUS DOGMA IN AUSTRALIAN LAW.

University of Melbourne actually offer three courses in Islamic law as part of its Graduate Diploma in Asian Law and LL.M. degree.

They are:

* Fundamentals of Islamic Law
* Current Issues in Islamic Law
* Islamic Law and Politics in Asia

The focus is primarily on Islamic law as understood in our SE Asian neighbours, notably Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines.

Jocelynne's complaint that the course doesn't Aboriginal, Jewish or customary African law is odd. You would not expect these to be included in a course on Asian law.

Essentially all the foaming, er, contributors to this discussion seem to have overlooked the fact that the original article said, "it is only a matter of time before Sharia law is proposed as a legitimate means of resolving disputes - including family law disputes - as they arise between Islamic Australians".

No change is required to current Australian statute law for this to happen. Indeed as I pointed out in a previous thread, many Muslims already abide by Sharia law principles in diet, prayers, dress and would, where able, in borrowing and lending money.

The main missing ingredient is an institutional one: mediators trained in contemporary Islamic law. Alternative dispute resolution avenues have been used for 20 years in resolving commercial disputes, http://www.acdcltd.com.au/

The Family Court is strongly encouraging mediation as preferable to formal Court proceedings. There is no reason why outcomes couldn't adhere to Islamic law as well as staying within the broad framework of Australian family law.

For those fixated with the idea that countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran represent the only possible model for Sharia law, The Malaysian Star reported yesterday on a recent seminar on "Trends in Family Law Reform in Muslim Countries", http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2006/3/27/lifefocus/13720122&sec=lifefocus

QUOTE
Successful law reform

Women’s groups in Muslim-dominated Morocco and Turkey have pushed the democratic process forward by bringing about justice and equality in their family laws...

A coalition of 200 women’s associations made an unprecedented campaign that lasted from 1999-2004 to defend their cause. There were national-level discussions and the women’s groups stood their ground that the law should be based on equality between the genders, said Amina.

In 2001, Morocco’s new king expressed his concern for the welfare of women and selected a consultative committee. The coalition led the demands for the family code reform and proposed that the consultative committee should also be made up of women, not only men and male Islamic scholars. They also proposed that the committee should include legal experts, sociologists, economists and psychologists.

A memorandum on the reform of the family code was sent to the king in March 2003 and the king came up with a consultative committee the following month. The coalition for the campaign presented their case in front of the consultative committee. They later created the guidelines of equality for the family, said Amina.

In October 2003, the king announced the new family code in Parliament. The following month, the women’s movement presented their case in Parliament and in February, Parliament agreed to the family code.
END QUOTE

More at http://www.learningpartnership.org/advocacy/alerts/morocco0204

And from a UK Muslim lawyer and mediator: http://www.consensusmediation.co.uk/adrinmuslimthought.html

MikeM
Well, it's good to see that in some Muslim countries, such as Turkey and Morocco, they are making an effort to get up to date.
They still have a long way to go in many other countries though.
The principle of the separation of Church and State, and the secular nature of the law, are still not principles universally accepted under Islam.
Being an agnostic, I believe that religion should have nothing at all to do with lawmaking.

mangotreeone1: What does Moses being a prophet got to do with anything? I agree that you calling "your jesus" simply a prophet, and a pagan one too boot, is fine. But please understand your jesus is a far different jesus from the real Jesus. This Jesus is, as you have heard repeatedly, the Son of God and the world's Messiah. Please m/t1 just honour your one pedophilic, murderous, robbing, misogynistic, lying prophet - big mo, if you must. numbat.

What's this talk about separation of Church and State? It's an American concept in order to protect Catholics and non-Conformists from state enforced worship and to prevent the establishment of the Church odf England as the established church.. It is not a British concept where the Church of England is the established religion and where, for centuries, Catholics and non-Conformists were compelled to attend Church of England services and where Anglican clergy were members of the House of Lords.

Francis. Section 116 of the Australian Constitution specifies that:

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

I would have thought that was sufficient for separation of the Church and State..

Froggie, look again....it's what the Commonwealth may not do. It says absolutely nothing about the Church not doing anything. Where does it say that the Church may not influence the State nor have a voice in the state? I repeat, the doctrine of separation of Church and State was to protect non-Anglicans or any group at the mercy of big brother where big brother might be Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Atheist , Humanist, Secularist etc etc. It does not state that Church and State are mutually exclusive. The sepaartion of Church and State is to protect Church, not to protect the State.

Philo, and DB,
The Babylonian Talmud
Translated by Michael L. Rodkinson.is here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm#t01
Some could do well to read it themselves. Well done.

Numbat...the Jesus I love was born in Bethlahem is the son of God, the Messiah, who was crucified by religious bigots so why do you say he is a murdering, robbing lying Prophet, maybe it is beacause you are a basket case, you need to read the Bible before you make outragious statements, My advice to you join the Middle East Forum you will be able to compete with other bigots who belong to your God Club, are you sure you are not worshiping a antichrist disguised as God because that would explain your bigotry, you spit on the face of christ on the cross, you should be ashamed of yourself, mangotreeone

Mike M, I have a close lady friend who's just left Morocco, where she lived married to a Moroccan diplomat. When in Morocco, she lived in a sealed enclave, couldn't go anywhere unless accompanied. Being a white non muslim women, she had less barriers then her muslim lady friends, but was till very restricted.

They had a wedding recently, two services, two receptions and two after parties. Men at one, women at the other. The women have no real rights, even though they are supposed to. They follow a sharia law that gives men full control and the final say. So its irrelevant what the government does, its sharia that they adhere to. The men also have the right to hit their women and have extra wifes and as many mistresses as they like. The men have the right to kill their women if they so much as look or talk to another man unless accompanied.

She is trying to get a share of their estate. But because he refuses to accept court papers, theres nothing she can do. Its his right to refuse a women, so he's above the law. She says living in Europe is getting very scary, but is stuck there, she gets visits from his brother, or his cousins checking on what she is doing. So I must say that any form of law that equates to a religious moral, action, or philosophy, is the first step to total suppression and social destruction as we know it.

Its irrelevant as to whose god faction is the worst, its what the whole belief system actually does that counts. But then I doubt theres any god fearing religious, that can see past the mirror in their head and see beyond the reflection of themselves, at the reality that surrounds them.

It amazes me that god followers reject what their belief really is, yet constantly try to enforce the opposite of what they preach. Trying to live like it was thousands of years ago and live by those standards, sure says a lot about the intelligence of monotheists

mangotreeone1,

It is clear that the prophet to which numbat is referring is Muhammad.

It is fruitless come at others on the forum with things you know not to be true - just as you stated I have a 'hatred for all Muslims', which you know not to be true.

mangotreeone1, if you cannot engage the content of other's posts in a proper and respectable fashion, then I suggest you go play in the sandpit.

mangotreeone1, as I posted above, when Muslims state to a young Australian girl, as stated in court documents, "you deserve to be raped because you are Australian" it is clear who the racist ones are - I am NOT racist for posting it - and mangotreeone1, you SHOULD be more interested in the Muslim racists who stated this in a rape of a young girl, and less interested in myself for having posted it...

It is clear, mangotreeone1, that YOU are racist for not speaking out against the racist rape of a young Australian girl, who was raped, “… because [she] is Australian”, but you speak out against myself merely because I posted what other racist Muslims stated in a rape…

SHAME, mangotreeone1, SHAME SHAME SHAME

Thanks All for the link to the Babylonian Talmud online.

MikeM, because some Muslim countries are introducing reform to their Shari'ah laws; means the reformed edition is not strict Shari'ah. It is however indication of a modernisation reflecting universal values. Justice is universal, and a just law can be universally applied. Under strict Shari'ah it must not be questioned as unjust, it must be submitted to and applied no questions asked.

We certainly look for and welcome signs of the principles of universal justice in Muslim countries. To be able to stand back from the terror of the law and apply the two principles under which Christians should operate:

1. Love and be devoted in mind, body and spirit to worship the absolute purity of Holy character, the attitudes of mind, and actions that bless and enhance life and the sourse that inspires wisdom. This embodies the first and great commandment.
2. Love your enemy, your neighbour, as you love yourself. Forgive and take action to build relationships that are real and peaceful. This is the second commandment.

Laws are there for reference to those who violate socially accepted behaviours. Devoted love is the positive side of reaching purity of mind and relationships. Devotion and love is not bounded by laws otherwise it is not love or devotion, but submision and control.

Francis,

Separation of Church and State is not an American Concept. Oh no! It is much older than that, and as correctly pointed out by Froggie, is enshrined in our Constitution (Section 116).

Jesus himself started the debate. Mathew 22:21 has him saying "Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and Render unto God the things that are God's".

This started a chain of events. At the Council of Nicea the problem was addressed by indeed separated the church and state. The Bishop of Rome was the head of the Church, and Ceasar was the Emperial head. But eventually the Empire collapsed, and there were a number of squabbles between Kings (including Charlemagne) and Papacy.

In the 12 Century (I think - I'm working off memory here), Emporer Henry IV came to power as the Ruler of the Holy Roman Empire. Unlike what the name suggests, this was actually a German based empire. In a struggle for supremacy between the Papal States (Pope Gregory VII) and the HRE which resulted in a war lasting 20 odd years, the HRE was fragmented and destroyed as a cohesive political entity. Hundreds of Principalities popped up under the local nobility. So to were the Italian Papal States, but the general winner of the Mathew 21:22 debate was the State.

Even figures like Napoleon, who crowned himself rather by snatching the crown from the Pope were addressing this very issue. Napoleon made a reference to Charlemagne as precedent.

What happened next is well known history. Bismark comes along, re-unifies the Holy Roman Empire and calls it Germany. It upset the European balance of power, a couple of wars with Austria and France, the WWI, which Germany loses. WWII is basically a continuation of WWI.

One might say that Jesus himself caused both world wars.

mangotreeone1: The post you addressed to boaz-david it seemed that you were a moslem talking of your moslem prophet jesus. I said that that being does not exist. If I made a mistake and you do look to the real Jesus as your Messiah then I humbly apologise. If you are actually a pagan with a pagan false jesus then my remarks stay. numbat

Francis. It's not very clear to me the point you were trying to make..

The Church may indeed influence the State, but not directly, unless a religious party were democratically elected. After all, politicians can be Christian, or members of other faiths. Disraeli, British PM in Victoria’s reign was a Jew. However, the days of Church leaders, such as Archbishops for example, directly having a say on what can or can’t be done in the secular world have been gone for some time. I think the last one who tried that was Thomas à Becket, and we all know what happened to him, don’t we?

While it is true there is no law that says that a Christian party can’t be involved in politics, in practice there are so many different denominations of Christians, and also so many other religions, that for example, a Baptist party trying to get elected would have a tough time of it.

Non-Baptist Christians probably wouldn’t vote for them, just as they would probably not vote for other denominations.

When you look at the rise of the religious right in American politics, in particular in the Republican Party, and hear the bigoted views of the people who make up this phenomenon, (Tim Lahaye, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and other delusional fundamentalists) I think you would be very glad that they do not have executive power in the Government.

I would venture to suggest that they are equally as frightening as a possible Wahabist Islamic Party.

For myself, it would be good if the Human Race grew up a bit, stopped believing in mystic nonsense and fairy tales, and cast aside its security blanket. After all, as others have pointed out, religion is based a lot on striking fear into the hearts of the disbelievers. Coercion cannot be a good reason to believe.

Froggie & Narcissist,

The point is quite clear: the Constitution as Froggie quoted DOES NOT mention separation of Church and State. It merely says that the Commonwealth may not establish any religion as a state religion (unlike the UK) etc.....although the established Christian public holidays (Christmas & Good Friday) are possibly in conflict with the Constitution....(however, I wouldn't have a clue about that). The question thus arises: what is your understanding of "separation of Church and State"? I remember when Peter Hollingworth, an Anglican clergyman, was appointed GG the "separation of Church and State" mantra was trotted out by many......but what does it mean? The American version seems to mean that Christian symbols may not be displayed on public property (although other religion's symbols are OK) and that public monies may not be given to Church agencies (hospitals etc). If that's the case then, here in Australia, we DO NOT have separation of Church and State.

Froggie your final paragraph is just plain silly and would not require a great deal of intelligence to compose it. Besides, your mates Hitler, Stalin, MaoTse Tung and Pol Pot thought the same, and where did it get us?

Thanks for the comments in reply, and for Philo's elaboration.
Sharia law is not a monolith, just as Islam is not a monolith, and I think it is quite possible that Sharia can influence secular law in a positive way. I insist that Australian law remain secular, and so Sharia's claim to be of divine origin is to be rejected. But that does not ruling out it, or any other law claiming divine origin, from being examined to see if it can be a positive influence on secular Australian law.
The suggestion by the original author that Sharia will eventually be used to settle disputes between muslims in Australia I regard as very worrying. Secular Australian law has been, and is being, developed to resolve disputes between Australians, amongst other things. If some muslims want Sharia law to be used in Australia, then they can lobby to have it (or some parts of it) considered for inclusion in Australian law. But to wish to be outside Australian law is not an option. If Australian law wishes to adopt some principles or practices from Sharia (or other) laws, then so be it, but such laws would be subject to Australian law, and available to all Australians, not just muslims. And any such laws would be subject to the High Court, where their constitutionality could also be tested.
All Australians, muslims included, are to receive the protection of Australian law, as developed in Australia, and not subject to other laws.

Froggie, The Alchemist: a pleasure to have a rational discussion.

The Alchemist: I have no knowledge of the case you quote: a Moroccan lady who is being persecuted. I will say though that I am careful choosing web sources to support an argument. I looked at more than a dozen (all generally consistent in their claims) before choosing to quote the Malaysian Star. Considerations were:

* It was the most recent
* It was a report from a lecture by a Moroccan woman
* It occurred outside the country

Changing the law does not immediately stop newly illegal behaviour. After the British banned the Hindu practice of Suttee in the mid-19th century (i.e. burning a widown when her husband died) the practice intermittently continued. http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=11622

The real question is whether the rule of modern law is progressively stamping out medieval practices.

Froggie: interestingly, the new Moroccan law is not secular, contrary to your suggestion.

From "Can Islam Change" in 2004 at http://www.newstatesman.com/200409130016

QUOTE
Morocco has provided an essential lead. Its new Islamic family law, introduced in February, sweeps away centuries of bigotry and bias against women. It was produced with the full co-operation of religious scholars as well as the active participation of women...

At first, King Mohammed VI had to abandon plans for change because, protesters claimed, he was trying to impose secular law and western culture on Morocco. In spring 2001, however, he set up a commission, which included women and was given the specific task of coming up with fresh legislation based on the principles of Islam...

Every change in the law is justified - chapter and verse - from the Koran, and from the examples and traditions of the Prophet Muhammad. And every change acquired the consent of the religious scholars. Even the Islamist political organisations have welcomed the change...
END QUOTE

Australian law follows mainly Christian religions principles although we are nominally a secular society. You only have to look at the fuss from conservative Christians about contraception, abortion, homosexuality.

It is impossible to formulate laws without a value system - an idiology. Laws are there to control behaviours and relationships; and religious values/ idologies are there for the same purpose.

That much of Australian law is based upon a Westminster Christian value system is relavent to who makes the laws. In Australia it is the Government who formulates laws; predicated upon. 1. All people are equal, 2. All people are equally subject to one set of laws.

Religion is a synonym for law in an idiological context. For us to imagine that the Christian Church must not have a say in laws formed by Government is a nonsence. Does that mean only those with an atheistic idiology can formulate Australian Law. This would mean the Government is then involved in promoting an atheistic world view.

This is equally in violation of the Australian Constitution, as it promotes the values of an one idology - value system. There is no separation of Church from the State: but there is separation of the State from the Church. The State must not be involved in the Church. Even as the State must not be involved in the societies of Atheists or Agnostics.

Thanks MikeM, for your input. It is good to be able to participate in forums such as this and learn things, which otherwise one would not.

The idea that law can only derive from religion is false. There is a long tradition of Western Philosophy, starting with the Ancient Greeks (but also probably before that), which underpins our legal system. The word “ideology” also encompasses such things as “Nazism”, and “Communism”.

Religion incorporates many of the philosophical ideas, but adds to it a mystical, irrational layer.

It is true that man has always had a tendency towards religion.
Some anthropologists think it has an evolutionary benefit where if the religion is dominant it tends to aid the survival of the species by promoting social unity.
Unfortunately today it seems to cause a lot of division – “my God is the real one and yours isn’t”- so that now it has probably outlived its evolutionary usefulness.
I must admit that religion has had its benefits in the past.

I am certainly not against people practicing a religion if they feel they need it. It must be comforting for many to believe that there is a “divine” purpose to life.

It becomes destructive when religious people cannot tolerate other points of view, and wish to impose their views on the rest of us.
That is why I feel that religion should be kept out of the law making process, as far as possible. Naturally one cannot prevent some politicians having their own religious viewpoint, and that is fine, as long as the people that elect them know of this.

Froggie: I can and do tolerate other religious views as well as atheist's views. I do not impose my views on anyone - it's not my job. As I understand it God - the Real One or the Christian One - calls whom He will.
Having said that I will counter lies, distortions and falsehoods from Christian, pagan and unbelievers. By the way it is normally the "bright?" u/believers who mock religion and its followers.
Looking at Christianity - strange that freedoms, laws, art, music, sports, fair justice systems, 99.9% of all inventions, humanitarian aid etc has come from Christian nations. You could image that perhaps because of their religion they have been the recipients of a Divine Blessing eh? numbat

Although this isn't really relevant, I'll give you my insight into what I believe should happen to those terrorists who wish to enforce the utterly barbaric Sharia Law, on the rest of us.

After capturing them, we should amputate their arms & legs, turning them into just a torso. Then, we can watch them crawl around eating food we give them like the animals they are.

Remember these are people who believe that women are worth half the value of men, that homosexuals should be killed, and somehow, somehow, think they're way is superior.

After this humility, I'd start them on female hormones so that they start to become a woman. I'd give them L.S.D, and tell them we are going to stone them to death everyday so they know how the women in their socieities feel.

After they truly feel like a woman, as the hormones would no doubt do, I'd begin the process of, wait for it,.....turning them into ZIONISTS. It may take a while, but I'd get Bin Laden to go on tv, as the torso I've made him, and he can give speeches about the benefits of zionism, as a woman of course.

Then, after this, more L.S.D, and the death he deserves, and would get, probably can't be repeated in public.

Those sick misogynists who believe in Sharia should come out and admit it. We have Irfan defending it, and saying it's a misinterpretation what's happening in Afghanistan with that Christian, but he knows it is Sharia. He feels embarressed that he believes in barbarity.

So he should.

Another thing.

Irfan spends all his time telling us that what happens overseas, say, how Afghanistan wants to kill Christians, oh that's not Islam he says, spending his time telling us, worried that we will have a bad impression.

Irfan, by doing that you reveal to us that we are correct. If you truly were serious, you'd lecture the people committing the crime under misiniterpretation, but you Muslims never do.

You don't even say anything unless a westerner asks whats going on over there?

I find it funny that the Muslim leaders, like trad, who never shut up and are always chasing the media, hasn't said anything about this guy in Afghanistan.

What is worse is that when a journo asked a cleric in Kabul what he thought, he, and all the people on the street he asked (still think its a minority irfan?) they all said he should die. The cleric was such a smart ass, he knows how humanitarian the west is. He said, I know that the west will pressure for Rahman to be released. But he said, no matter, the people will kill him. He said that with a smile on his face, a Muslim cleric.

What sort of morals do you people have! Oh, thats right Irf, he's not Muslim hey, he's misinterpreted it so much he's mabye even a Zionist out to make Islam look bad!

Irfan, the moderates, and I've only ever seen one, The Dr. Tanveer Ahmed, are in the minority. People like you are ruining it for them.

Grow up, you know it's wrong to defend Sharia. You people are truly Nazi's Irf, although why you feel superior is beyond me.

Honestly, it's bizarre. The middle-east offers nothing but death & decay. God help you when we don't need oil anymore, you'll be where you deserve, where history intended, on the scrap heap with all the other totalitarian systems.

numbat - "Having said that I will counter lies, distortions and falsehoods from Christian, pagan and unbelievers." I'd be interested to see some links to posts where you have directly challenged lies, distortions or falsehoods from christains who are on the same side of an argument as your self. You might consider your less than overwhelming response to coaches claims about fasting marking Islam as a false religion or hotted up cars, people movers and family picnics being a sure fire way to identify mossies.

I note in another recent post that you claim not to believe in an eternity of hell fire but I have not spotted any posts directly challenging those who propose eternal damnation for those of us who don't hold to your faith. Where is the evidence for your claim?

Regarding Islamic contribution to inventions it is my impression that the most significant advances go back to the time when the western world was tied down by the excesses of the christain church and the muslim world was relatively free of the excesses of the overly religious. At that stage they laid the foundations for a lot of maths, did a lot of core research into how things work as well as inventing quite a lot of stuff that is still in use. There is a lot of material available on the web if you care to do a search.

Neither the Islamic world nor the Western world have prospered when the religious have held excessive power (learning can get mighty uncomfortable for simplistic world views) but both have contributed to the advances which have lifted us out of the dark ages when the religious have held only limited secular power. Something to consider as the christain church continues to seek to regain power over how science is taught in schools and organised christain political parties seek to gain secular power.

R0bert

RObert: Shamefully much of your observations are true regarding other views of Christianity - but not all.
Your list of moslem inventions is where? Re mathematics - not poached from the captive jews and Christians?
Strange that after leaving Spain islam just disappeared as regards to any new thought or invention - strange that no more captive clever peoples and no more innovations.
I have read that if it is not in the pagan koran then it is not important. If there is a mention in the pagan koran then there's no more to say on the matter as the koran is the word of utter truth. To question the pagan koran with new understanding would be seen as blasphemy.
Have you read on what your koran does say about the human body - what a hoot! numbat

Look, what are we still talking about? In the end, "sharia law" is not law but custom. Here.

So go ahead, name whatever it is you like to do whatever you want to call it, including using the word "law" if it makes you feel happy or more important.

If you wish to practise legal foreign customs, go ahead, knock yourselves out - its australia, you're allowed to do it ... under the law.

numbat, first up it is not my koran. I'm clearly agnostic. My interest in this topic is a strong preference for fair play in debate and life and a view that unfair villification of a section of the community harms us all. Much of what is being written about muslims is grossly unfair and misleading. If you have a browse through my posts you won't find any defences of the quran or Mohammed. You will find objections to double standards where the muslims are judged according to what is in the quran but christains insist that they not be judged by any part of the bible that is awkward. You will find objections to claims that all muslims live acording to the most unpleasant portions of their scriptures when history shows that generally they do not (and christains dodge the awkward bits of their own scriptures).

In regard to muslim inventions I made some comments on the topic at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3947#23339 which includes a couple of links to lists and discussion of muslim inventions.

I've known christains who believe it is wrong to pay any attention to the environment because God is going to destry the earth anyway (and can justify it by selected use of scripture).

Others who are able to justify all sorts of things by taking parts of the bible as they want to. Some who boast of reading nothing except the bible (and can justify that from scripture as well) - kind of similar thinking to what you refer to from the quran but clearly not the way all christains treat learning or our responsibilities to this world.

When you are at least as vigerous in your attacks on christians who misrepresent the christain faith as you are on those who hold to different faiths (or lack thereof) I will take your claims of impartiality more seriously.

R0bert

Froggie,
You first denounce that law is not only derived from religion [a values system]: then continue to prove that it does.

Quote, "The idea that law can only derive from religion is false. There is a long tradition of Western Philosophy, starting with the Ancient Greeks (but also probably before that), which underpins our legal system. The word "ideology" also encompasses such things as "Nazism", and "Communism". Religion incorporates many of the philosophical ideas, but adds to it a mystical, irrational layer."

Please identify the mystical and irrational layer of a Christian view of our laws!

More and more of our laws are formulated from a value system that is deliberately antagonistic toward Christian values. A set of value even if atheistic stands on the same basis as any other set of values. Values are a set of standards behaviours felt or believed by a group to be important for human behaviour. like, "Thou shalt not kill" which Jesus said also means hate or wish ill will upon another person.

The oldest written codified laws were inscribed in stone monuments some 1,800 years before Christ and were clearly religious. Just read the prologue and epilogue to these laws to recognise they announce the empowerments and cursings of every known god in the land. So law had its beginnings in religion.

Even the Greeks had their supernatural superstitions, they were not free from religious superstitions as some seem to imply. We have retained the Greecian idea that alcohol cause evil spirits to enter the mind - hence alcoholic beverages were and are still referred to as spirits - thanks to the Greeks.

MikeM

the reforms you mention about Morocco, are not 'Islamic' reforms they are purely secular. That is why the reaction is noticed from the conservative Muslims scholars and identities in the article you referred us to. (I read it).

Some described the changes to divorce and property rights as 'devilish'.

So, while I welcome the changes, it would be amiss to suggest that this is an example of 'flexible Sharia law'. It is clearly not that.
It is in fact a departure from it.

I mention all this in another post in another thread (posted by mistake, thinking that was where u posted this article.)

The article is more a story of the triumph of Feminist ideology and western secular views in Muslim countries, than of nuance and updating of Sharia.

The same reaction was found in Malaysia to a womens group formed to tackle the same issues, ( a recent story on a doco) but they (the women) are trying to say its still "Islamic" when clearly it is not.

The Judao/Christian foundation for our law is very simple. "Do for others as you would have them do for you". If that principle is applied, law is indeed flexible and modifiable, yet still 'Christian' in one sense.

Sadly, much 'Law' is specifically designed to protect the interests of particular people (often lawyers) with vested interests.
Like when NSW cut off streets which might have been used by motorists to avoid an ugly TOLL on the cross city tunnel. Such a law is decidedly UN-Christian because it is based purely on financial gain at the expense of the populace.

There should never be any law forcing people to 'go to Church on Sunday' ... but democractically decided laws such as 'no shops open on Sunday' or.. 'Box Hill will be 'alchohol free/dry' are quite valid for the period where it is democratically viable. It is not disastrous loss if such laws are democratically changed. We Christians will continue to do what we do on Sundays and by and large avoid the excessive consumption of alchohol etc :)

Dumbat, you need to beg for forgiveness, you said--- " 99.9% of all inventions come from Christian Nations so you can image that perhaps because of their religion they have become recipients of divine Blessins eh---end of quote-- does that included the tools to butchers human beings, the pleasure tools for sale in sex shops, you have bad dose of antichrist fatigue,
God is all powerful. stop spitting on the face of Christ on the Cross you Godless whatsitsname, mangotreeone1

mangotreeone1: Note didn't change your name nor have I/will I be abusive to you - I do think it detracts.
It's a fact re decent Government in the main in the Christian west. The other I asked a question perhaps it is religion and blessings. Why did I say that - well we in the west are not cleverer, smarter, more innovative so maybe it's religion. Of course I acknowledge that in religion we have not done as well as we should have but that's the only difference. We have freedoms in our religion and p/islam does not. numbat

Most of the laws we've introduced in the last 100 years, are derived from cultures other than monotheistic. They come from the Hittites, Mesopotamians, particularly the Sumerian's, the Veda and more recently indigenious cultures in environmental matters. Then we need to consider the laws, technological advances, ethical and valued advances that've come from non monotheistic controlled cultures in the past.

In Morocco, if you give up islam, your dead. No matter what they say, in any muslim country, your dead if you give up your islamic faith. Just like marrying out of any faith, your dead, maybe not physically, but in most other aspects.

The Hittites rewrote Babylonian laws (Abrahamic), because they were too violent. The Hittites were probably the first recorded secular state, that gave equality to women, slaves and even animals is some respects. Just like the last 100 years, when this country and others turned secular, since, we've been removing christian laws.

I believe we have surpassed religion and won't allow any laws that reflect a religious moral or conviction. The vast majority like our social progress, other than the religious threats constantly thrown at us.

Bd, the christians had laws forcing people to church for many centuries, on fear of flogging, racking, dunking, torture, even death. It was enforced on those transported here by religious bigots, on fear of flogging or other punishment. It was also enforced within the armed services of all christian dominated countries until the last century.

You try to enforce it now, with your constant threats of damnation and evangelism. Just like the muslims and the jews, one way for you, and buggar everyone else.

Alchemist,
Justice is a universal principle. Just because the ancients recognised this doesn't give it any more authority. Could you identify for me where I could find Hittite secular laws? The first principle of environment law was written in Genesis 2:15 - to nurture and care for creation.
__________
The Hittites came from Indo-European and captured territory in Asia Minor about 2,000 BC about 200 years before Abraham. Anittas was the first great king of the Hittites and his son is mentioned in Genesis 14:1.

It wasn't till after 1560 BC when King Telepinus captured Babylon that the Hittite constitution and laws were codified. The King was a religious and military leader of the people. The Hittite State was not secular as you claim the King was a leading Priest of Hittite religion.

[E. Neufield, Hittite laws-1951]The Hittite laws were more humane than than were the Babylonian and Assyrian; and they resemble the principles later set down in Mosaic law. They didn't use degrading mutilations on captives. The treaties with foreign powers were carefully respected.

Your claim they rewrote Abrahamic laws because they were too violent is not true and reflects your own preconceived-bigitory. Abraham lived under Hammurabi laws; monotheism had no national code of laws before Moses 1300 BC. This places Moses laws 140 years after King Telepinus, not before as you claim.
________________

Quote, "Most of the laws we've introduced in the last 100 years, are derived ...from the Hittites, Mesopotamians, particularly the Sumerian's, the Veda and more recently indigenious cultures in environmental matters. Then we need to consider the laws, technological advances, ethical and valued advances that've come from non monotheistic controlled cultures in the past. The Hittites rewrote Babylonian laws (Abrahamic), because they were too violent. The Hittites were probably the first recorded secular state, that gave equality to women, slaves and even animals is some respects. Just like the last 100 years, when this country and others turned secular, since, we've been removing christian laws. I believe we have surpassed religion and won't allow any laws that reflect a religious moral or conviction."

Philo, theres many links, you will note that there appears no reference to gods in their laws. As there were none that I know of in Hammurabi of Babylons laws. You will also note in the old testament, the jews were warned of living in Egypt because of their secular modern laws, that allowed gay marriages, as did lots of early societies.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/HITTITES.HTM

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/1650nesilim.html

Which king are you referring to, considering there were many, as well as queens. They used many gods and accepted them from each area they occupied, just like modern secular societies allow, unlike monotheists. There was no “Telepinus” but a Telepinu. It was common throughout those ages for the king to be the high priest as they believed kings were closer to the gods then humans. Just like now, the queen is head of the English church, by definition. Hittite laws were secular and moderate, unlike Babylons, for which you could be killed for just about any misdemeanor. Just read their laws and tell me where you see gods in them.

Women played a notable part in society. Queen. Pudupepa, the wife Hattusili III 1275-1250 , was noted for her involvement with law making. Hittite law was more humane than both Babylonian and Assyrian law.

Being selective Philo, instead of viewing the whole of history is a common denial in monotheists. We have learnt monothiests are unreliable when it comes to truth and very discerning in determining how they try to construct truth. Just like your so called first environmental law, Genesis 2:15 - to nurture and care for creation.

Monotheists certainly have failed on that one, Bd wants to wipe out cockatoos, most multinationals are controlled by monotheists. The degradation of the land, sea and air, has been the hallmark of monotheistic societies. You never see your evangelists out their trying to save your gods creation. Just gorging themselves on your gods creations, enslaving them and hunting them down. Monotheists are fully involved in environmental destruction, up to their prayer books.

Reality is the whole world Philo, not just religious lies and day dreams.

Philo
In my comment about “the mystical, irrational layer” I was talking about religion, not the law.
There isn’t much point trying to discuss things rationally with people who believe in the supernatural.
It is not for me to disprove your delusions, it is for you to prove they are true, since you religious people are the ones promoting them.
Maybe you believe, like your mate Dobbadan, that some crackpot preacher in Guatemala really is raising 300 people back from the dead.
Maybe you don't believe that particular claim. I don't really care.
All I can say about the supernatural part of religion is, prove it beyond a shadow of doubt.
You will reply, “you’ve got to have faith”. To me this means believe; despite any lack of evidence.
Please continue to believe, if it makes you happy.

Those that believe the Ancient Greek Government was non-religious and atheistic secular give misinformed nonsence. The tenents of Greek law were formulated about 700 BC from the earlier influence of their Hittites neighbours. The Hitites as well as the ancient Greeks had mythological legend and multiple gods at the basis of their cultural and daily thought.

The fact is their laws were not designed to enforce the will of the ruling Monarch or primary gods, but the betterment of all members of their society. They upheld the equality of the individual in their society, which also is the basis of a Christian view of man. Christ saw equality as a universal principle that included those barbaric Roman occupation forces that the Jews hated. The apostle Paul encounted Greek attitudes to their gods in Athens - Acts 17: 16 - 34. He presents God as in whom we live move and have being, which reflects much of Aristotle thought.

This universal principle of justice for everyone encourages the best development in the individual. Unfortunately for Christianity it became submerged in a cruel Roman political system and it was not till the reformation did the true message of Christ begin to emerge.

The Greeks belief in law strengthened their ethnic pride, they spoke the same language, worshipped the same gods and observed the same customs which meant they saw themselves as superior to other races or nations. Their view of equality only applied to members of their own nation or their allies.

Alchemist,
Your dishonesty betrays you. I suggest you read again the Hammurabi Code as I find reference to at least 23 different gods. Gods that granted him power to make laws as ruler and to enforce the law upon injustice and opression. Gods whose curse will fall upon those that violate the laws. It is based in religion. Read carefully the introduction and prologue and you will see that the laws have a religious signifance.

Our own Constitution in the preamble gives reference to; "humbly relying upon the blessing of Almighty God". Our initial secular laws were formulated by Christian Clergy and Christian Lawyers. It appears you believe Christians pronounce curses in every phrase upon lawbreakers.

The Christian agencies assist in the welfare of prisoners and their families. You have a belief that if a law applies to secular [material] things it must be atheists that formulated the law.

Job was one of the earliest monotheists and a grandson of Abraham. Reference in not made to any of his seven sons, but his three daughters are mentioned by name as beautiful Queens in about 1700 BC [Job 42: 13 - 15]. The Jewess Esther was Queen in Persia whose story appears in the OT under her name. More attention is given to her than her husband King. The view that women were some subservient chatel of a man is not the picture of women in Israel or the NT where the men loved and respected their wives.

Shari'ah laws followed in the tradition of the Jewish zealots of Jesus day who wanted to eradicate pagan Romans from their land. They were totally intolerant of unclean gentiles and pagan visitors. It was the Zealots who fled to Babylon [see second Talmud] that deeply influenced Mohammet and the formation of Shari'ah.

The leader of the zealots challenged Jesus to, single handedly cast down the the two Roman guards that kept watch over the city from the tiny temple turret [pinnacle]. The Jews believed the Romans defiled the holy place because of their unclean practises and presence. Jesus identified this zealot who challenged him as an enemy of God [opponent / satan]. Why? Because Jesus believed in universal principles of love and not the exclusive nationalist pride of Israel

Jesus teaching was do good to your enemy, if he is hungry feed him, if thirsty give him drink. When Jesus announced himself as the Christ in his hometown they were excited, but when he told stories of gentiles with great faith, eg widow of Zarephath and Naaman the Syrian they wanted to stone him to death. Jesus stated they had greater faith than what he had seen in Israel

The OT prophet Jeremiah just prior to the Babylonian invasion spoke out against the religious falsness of mere keeping of religious ritual as laid down in the Moses laws. He spoke of a new concept where love would rule in their hearts and minds to guide their behaviour and they would be good neighbours [Jeremiah 31: 31 - 34 ].

The strict observence of laws do not create love and forgiveness in those enforcing the law. Universal principles of justice are based in love, forgiveness and the sacrificial service to others. Jesus was more influenced by the latter prophets and the emergence of love as the guiding force in behaviour than defending the strict observance of laws

The fact is that sharia law was created thousands of years ago, has never really been amended over those thousands of years, and should be treated as such outdated and obsolete. It is islam and it's followers way, of getting thier own way when they see fit to judge persecute and any other injustices the religion see fit to exploit, especially now in australia. We are talking about a law that allows the stoning of a female for looking in the wrong direction of another male besides her husband, and is classed adultery. If this were not such a serious issue, i would class islam and sharia law a big joke. But since it is not a joke i feel both need to be abolished from the australian way of life immediately, before both the religion and the law that governs it damage the australian way of life permanently. If there is a debate to be had, it would be that this is australia and we are governed by australian law which has been ammended over the years to make exceptions for other religions in some cases far to many exceptions. It is islam that has benefited from these amendments the most .The inability of the police to search a muslim female wether the officer is a female or not is just another way the muslims exploit the law in this country.So in reality sharia law has already got a foothold in this country. Our polititions with their own agendas have made incredible concessions to assist in this transition by stripping the police of their powers to arrest and search. And what has followed this is unprecedented crime rate among a minority race in this country .All the while claims are made of rasism and media bias.We are talking about a law and religion thats resolution process usually ends with a death or permanent injury of another human being without any real judgitial process.Now muslims upon reading this will throw their hands up in the air and scream lies that is just not true,

but the fact is it is the truth and we true australians know it.The day that sharia law is used in any way to settle any dispute amongst any australian wether muslim, hindu, or christian background is the day australia truly has died,call me melodramatic but you only have to look at the countries that practice this law, their is nothing but war and chaos which is why sections of their population end up here. What baffles me is if they left their own country to get away from the wars and the persecution, that their religion and laws that govern it cause why would they be practicing those same ways of life here?My only answer is that they see how placid and easy going true australians are and seek to exploit that and become our masters. Young muslim men are always commenting on how they feel they are superior and prove that fact by setting out in packs and bashing australians as they see fit. Is this another facet of sharia law that has not been revealed to the australian public yet? Time will only tell. All i do know is that inviting the muslim population into this country will prove to be the biggest mistake australia ever made and could quite realistictly be a catalyst to australias first ever civil war.Hopefully they will continue to wipe each other out in the sydney gang wars,another example of sharia law i wonder?

Sharia this!!

http://today.reuters.com/News/newsArticle.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2006-04-03T150400Z_01_L0311784_RTRUKOC_0_US-SAUDI-SEX.xml

Where are you Alchemist? I thought you would have an answer by now? Still scraping throught those history books till you find a historian that holds your position that the Babylonians, Hittites and Greeks formulated secular laws without any consciousness of divine beings?

If you are doing some rethinking - welcome! I will leave you alone to meditate.

Atheism as a National World View is a recent phenomon introduced by dissaffected Jews and Catholics and has led to the establishment of some of this Worlds greatest despotic and genocidal Governments.

Philo,

Leave Catholics out of it....it's impossible to be a Catholic atheist.....the two are mutually exclusive....Atheism is a fruit of Protestantism.

Francis,
I was talking about a National system promoting Atheism not a Christian belief. Hitler was formerly a Catholic that abandoned his Faith in God, though earlier supported and blessed by Catholic Priests. No true believer in the teachings of Christ would murder millions of Jews, simply because they were Jews.

Jesus wept for his Jewish brothers, "O Jerusalem, O Jerusalem You who stoned the prophets how I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her chickens." Well I might be mistaken. Perhaps Catholics could commit genocide with a faith that such action is sanctioned by God? Perhaps you could enlighten us.

Philo, I said that the Hittite laws didn't contain reference to gods, not the leaders or societies were godless. The Hammurabi Code was all about destroying people and ruling over the blacks of the world, nothing to brag about. Just shows the more you include god, the more you have death and destruction.

As someone else said, we've spent the last 50 years trying to remove religious influence from our laws, as they have shown they are violent, restrictive and discriminative.

When you consider the growing archaeological evidence disputing religious claims, any wonder debating with those on merry go rounds becomes boring.

Recently we've had the discovery of more evidence proving biblical and Koranic history to be false, plagiarised and steeped in violence and destruction. Joshua and jehrico have been disproved, Judas disproves the fallacies of the nt. The book of Mary, the nag hamadi, Simon, the Veda, Egyptian writings. Most documents run contrary to biblical text.

Recent genetic testing has shown that jew, Arab and Christians all carry cannonite blood. Proving that they all come out of the same box, Pandora's.

Consider the demands of monotheistics to pray constantly for help and guidance, yet the factual results of what the prayers received, shows a false and despotic belief system thats only aim is destruction, suppression and control

The “Integris Baptist medical center in Oklahoma city", did a study of 1800 patients to see the the effects of prayer on heart surgery patients. It found that those that were being prayed for, had more medical complications than those that weren't prayed for. If you look around the world and added up the amount of prayers, compared to the amount of positive answers, you have all the facts you need. You can see how effective prayer is in attaining the goals of monotheists. Its working very well, killing people, complicating their health, giving them false hope and doing nothing positive for anyone.

The Alchemist....what's "cannonite" blood? Who are/ were the "cannonites".....I think you're barking up the wrong tree mate as you are with your ridiculous claims re "Judas etc..." and archaeological evidence disproving the NT. More like wishful thinking on your part. Sounds like you've read something about the "Gospel of Judas" and put two and two together and come up with 17. Better luck next time. But, PLEASE, who are/were the "cannonites"? Re "prayer" any fool can trot out "research", experiments etc to "prove" his/her point one way or the other. Not very scientific on your part.

Alchemist , you are spot on about praying to God, it is a waste of time, the praying to God package, is a result of praying and begging for ones life prostrated in front of a earthly King, and suggests God acts like an earthly King. praying is begging, a cap in hand front up.

Earthlings = cannonites

The cannonites escape from slavery in Egypt.
Uncle Tom Cobbly and all = cannites,
to form Christians and Jews,
Jewish slaves and the Jewish chosen ones = cannonites,
Jews ,Arabs and Christians = cannonites,

Jewish slaves/Arab slaves were not allowed to worship at religious gatherings so they started their own religion Islam, so who is responsible for all the hatred, it all happened because someone said , Sorry Mate you are not allowed to worship our God, we are the only ones chosen by God , so piss of out of here find another God to pray to, sorry , but you have to wonder who the hangmen really are,

Everyone that writes on this site are cannonites, mangotreeone

mangotreeone1: You have really shown us your 1.Knowledge of history, 2. Knowledge of religion, 3.Knowledge of mankind. I have never read anything quite like this before, I am almost speechless with wonder of your marvellous intellect. To top it off you use such wonderful words, vocabulary and grammar. Now don't get carried away but this could be your best post ever. This could even be the highlight of your entire life. As you will never better this effort I think you should retire and rest on your laurels. Please try , though after your latest post it will be most difficult, to remain humble. numbat

Numbat, you are able to read the sign language,

I wis I cud Rite as gud as yu.

I hav yet to reed yor verson of th Bibal thats wy I hav kno intelegans,

Numbat wake up to your self, you are a just another writer trying your best to put your opinion across, at the end of the day it is the opinion that is believable thats succeeds, one day you may succeed
I sent a message you recieved it, I succeeded. because you attacked me as a person, as you proclaim to be "master of english" why not explain, your anger in simple words ,so a dum dum can understand,

I suppose there is a bit of Nephilim mystery creeping in here.
Perhaps they were aliens really peed off.
OO dear o me. Fire and Brimstone was actually an alien space craft attacking the evil indulgence of Man kind! Hitler was the ships captain-Lenin was First officer and Stalin was third in command of the Nephilim Ideological craft. Muhammad must have been the ships Engineering officer.The rest of the crew are to vast to mention.
Good Novel in there somewhere. But that is not what happened in history.

Francis, there is very little difference between cannonites and cannanites and whats transpired with either group. Their one and the same, as Mangotree points out. If you don't know the difference, then you have no understanding of your belief. Thats understandable, considering those knowing the true history and veracity of monotheists, dismiss it as a violent delusion and path of the ignorant and unknowing.

Proof of prayer, is well documented. During wars, conflicts and disagreements in the history of the world, since monotheistic invasion, your left with a real understanding of what prayer does. During the first and second world wars, there would've been hundreds of millions of people praying for war to not happen or to end. Result, total destruction of Europe and other parts of the world. The results are the same for all conflicts, introduce prayer and war escalates.

Then we have the billions who have prayed for gods help when in dire straits. Results no help just more pain. Put together the amount of people who pray for those in hospitals, results, death and rarely survival. In all the years that I've been helping those passing from this world, I have yet to see a positive result from prayer. Yet I have seen many conflicts and sadness when religion and pray are pushed onto someone by ignorant relatives and the church.

You need to provide verifiable proof of the power or prayer in doing good, in light of the proof of prayer doing nothing, but contributing to a worsening situation for all.

Fools are only found in religion, as can be seen by world history and what's occurred since the coming of monotheistics. You may also note, the areas of the world that've always caused the most trouble, are those areas where monotheistics is at the forefront of control. Pick any country thats in the grip of religion and you have the results. Name one that isn't a basket case of inter religious fighting, crime and corruption. Its easy to see where all the fools are, in countries in the grip of religion.

The Alchemist......you still haven't identified what "cannonite blood is".....Mango Tree is of no use whatsoever (as clear as mud). You cited, in your previous mess "genetic testing" yet you did not cite your sources......You must try harder. You say that there is very little difference between "cannonites" and "cannanites".....yet, you imply there is a difference (even though small)....are you referring to the Canaanites? My belief has nothing to do with "cannonites", "cannanites" "canaanites" or any other "ites" so quit trying to be so superior. the rest of your dribble is as nonsensical as the previous.

Francis.... I'm placing you on top of the list of 'colorful speakers' along with Proud To Be Indonesian :) 'Dribble..Nonsensical' ? my my...

I note you have quite strong 'Catholic' opinions, and some of your observations about Luther etc, are spot on. (Anti Jewish etc)

But I am detecting a mild case of 'plank and speck' here.. I don't think the fact that Luther went off the rails toward the end of his life, detracts from the primary contribution he made to freeing the world of the 'ecclesiastical domination' of the "Roman" Catholic church.

As long as the Church 'Catholic' remains true to its foundations, and does not elevate any man to 'infallability' such as with the Pope, we are on fairly safe ground. The obvious problem with infallible Popes is 'Bad Pope, bad doctrine' such as the idea of fund-raising through the selling of indulgences, (though I've heard it re-stated with all seriousness by modern Catholics as 'The Sacrement of Indulgence').
Mary-olatry and reinterpreting scripture to 'fit' the idea of a Mary who never had other children, do to a Pope having decided thus... etc..
That someone would actually defend this abominable doctrine in 2005/6
blew my mind. A good read of Pauls letter to the Galatians and Romans should provide adequate medication for this illness.

Feel free to correct any misunderstanding of Roman Catholic doctrine in my post as u see fit. I welcome it. (Saves me reading)

Anyway, I've not done so prior to this, but "welcome to OLO" :)
we need competing viewpoints, and they all add to the mix and freshness of this OLO experience
Cheers

The alchemist: So, in your pathetic, puerile opinion, prayer is not, has not been answered. Where in the Bible is a promise that all prayer is answered? Though I should imagine that there is a lot more answers from the Eternal than from pagan alah.
We are on earth for a short time, even should one reach a century that's a short time. This time on earth is not real life that's to come and it will be eternity. Sorry pagans no 70 virgins + 32 sweet little boys! Be surprised alchemist you, yes you will be there - how about that eh! You and mangotreeone1 share the one brain it appears. numbat

.
ur'anic verses 24:31 and 33:33
http://www.feminist.org/afghan/Girls%27_Schools_Attacks.pdf

“Let these women be warned. We will tear them to pieces. We will give them such terrible punishments that no one in future will dare to raise a voice against Islam” A Pakistani mullah addressing the dissenting women of Rawalpindi - From “Why I am not a Muslim” by Ibn Warraq, pg 321.

“Woman was made to bear and feed children. Therefore she is very emotional. And she is forgetful, because if she did not forget how it is to give birth she would not have another child. That is why she will not be as reliable a witness as a man.” From “The Age” “Life behind a veil of Islam” 3/3/1992 pg 11.
This “gem” is from a Muslim woman who has an arts degree and postgraduate diploma in education. It is a testament of the damage religion can do to a person's mind. If a University educated woman can be made to see herself as inferior on account of her gender, what hope is there for the millions of illiterate women around the world?

“A married woman should endure any violence or torture imposed on her by her husband for she is fully at his disposal. Without his permission she may not leave her house even for a good action (such as charitable work). Otherwise her prayers and devotions will not be accepted by God and curses of heaven and earth will fall upon her.” Iranian religious leader Hojatoleslam Imani.

Muslims will always argue that Islam has been misunderstood, misinterpreted and hijacked by a few. The facts remain that although there are elements of good in Islam, these are nullified by the prolific elements of aggression, misogyny and intolerance. That is why Islam has been so resistant to attempts of reform. There is much in Islam which contradicts the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 5: No one shall be subjected to torture, cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.
Article 6: Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
rmed conflict as crimes against humanity

Poor sad Numbat, no evidence to prove pray works, but billions of incidences to prove it hasn't. Name one occasion where pray has stopped a war, or where pray can be proved to have saved someone. A quick read of the paper or the news on TV will show you many examples of those praying yet getting no response. But their probably not true Christians like you.

In any country where religion laws are implemented in the form of moral laws, you see constant violence and problems. It doesn't matter what faction, same result, pain and suffering continues. Maybe that why monotheistic books are filed with violence and destruction, it reflects the reality of the beleif. That may mean you will become informed, something I know the religious try to steer well clear of.

Sorry Numbat, I won't be anywhere you will be after physical death. Being around those that can see nothing but themselves and see their despotic violent belief system as being good, is surely being around the deranged. I steer clear of despots and their failings.

Francis, read a bit if you want to know the difference between cannonites and cannanites, the blood relationship and belief system they share.

History has always shown that to involve religion with law and politics will produce a backward culture often controlled by unstable people from the fringes. I don't think I would like to live under a system controlled by such people

Mumbat you deserve some credit , it is a pity your opinions are short on facts, you use fiction as a tool to push your barrow,
Praying can be helpfull, people on their knees actually believe they are speaking with God, they are overcome with a fuzzy feeling,
Numbat this might help you understand, in Afganistan a bomb that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars was dropped on a group of animal shelters, those shelters were full of families praying, those shelters were blown to pieces, those who came along after found no one had survived, a piece of metal from the bomb had the words ,God Bless America, also had the blood of one of the victims, so which God do you support Numbat,

The alchemist & mangotreeone1: I never said that prayer is not answered, I said that not all prayer is answered - well not the way we want anyhow. To prove answered prayer to you an unbeliever would be totally impossible. It is hard to explain Christianity to those like you I'm afraid, no it's not you but you just haven't had your eyes opened. Yep! make of that what you will.
In so-called Christian nations we have religion - that's bells and smells, blokes wearing petty frocks and funny hats, and with elaborate worship style. None of which are Biblical. Then we have Christians - Oh! forget it as I said you cannot understand at all and that is so sad. m/tree, As a matter of fact I prayed this morning as is my custom and has been for more than 45 years, and no I did not get a fuzzy feeling. I did not ask for health nor for wealth I just spoke to my Creator God. Many out there would only have to go to the local zoo and do the same in front of the ape enclosure. In W/W2 the same messages were put on the bombs and shells from both sides - they were human. Yet I am very pleased that the lesser bad blokes - us - won.
Both of need to stop seeing God as a super human He is not He is so far above us that it defies imagination - even yours. But one day, believe me you will meet Him and be so glad you did. numbat

Alchemist,

You're obviously not prepared to state what you mean by "cannonites".....I thought I asked you a simple question! Nor, it seems, are you prepared to cite your genetic references for your statement that "Recent genetic testing has shown that Jew, Arab and Christians all carry cannonite blood". I wonder why. Did you read this somewhere or did you invent it? You really should cite your sources you know. What is cannonite blood. You just say "read a bit".....share the names of the books you've read and of the scientific journals that you have read so that I may "read a bit".

Google seems to think that cannonite is a crystalline mineral containing bismuth. Bismuth content in human blood is negligible.

Am I missing something here?

There is genetic and linguistic evidence that Arabs and European or Middle East Jews are closely related, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic (though the genetic link may be tenuous in some Jewish populations in Africa, the Americas and eastern Asia).

There is limited evidence that genetic makeup may affect individuals' propensity to be strongly religious, mildly religious or irreligious (although not biassed towards any specific religion) but if you look at the varying position of religious conviction in the nations of the world, genetics can only be a tiny influence, http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/rel_chu_att

There is more genetic variability between individuals of one human race than in average genetic makeup from one race to another. (In other words the neighbour who looks pretty much like you may be more genetically different than the headscarfed Lebanese girls or that black guy from Sudan whom you might see in the street or the Chinese, Indian or Thai staff you saw in a local restaurant the other evening.)

Numbat I have a Christian upbringing behind me, having travelled the road you now travel, allows me to understand where you come from, that road is sign posted , the signs point in every direction. the difference between you and I is ,I do not believe in justified killing of other human beings, you do, thats the same as nailing Jesus to the cross, I dont have to be a member of a God Club to be close to Jesus, If I was a Muslim you would call me a terrorist, if I was a member of your God Club[ you would say I was a heretic, that says you are like those people who two thousand years ago today screamed crucify him, everytime you attack another human being who are not members of your God Club you hammer the nails through Christs hands and feet, today is the day you should put yourself on the cross feel the pain of the nails being driven home, and ask your self what did Jesus really mean when he said "forgive them father they know not what they do" that message was for you and me and everyone else in this world . who "believe" in what they do, you must know the people Jesus mixed with during his life on earth were Arabs and Jews, he never banned Arabs from attenting his spiritual gatherings, so why do you hate Muslims? mangotree

Francis, I understand how hard it is for monotheists to research and learn outside their delusion. Thought you may have the intelligence to pick up my spelling mistake. Cannonites, instead of cannanites, or canaanites.

As Mangotree says, they are basically the same. Cannonites is the name used by Marxists to describe their religious foes. The caananites, are supposed to have invented the cabalah. The Egyptians invented the sephiroth, and the Jewish invented the path and arrange of the tree of life. Study real theological and monotheistic history, not just historically flawed and plagiarised false books, (bible) or you'll remain in the dark regarding true history.

We could spell it Canaanites, whom god ordered destroyed, another great act of love and compassion by god. For definition of god, read violent destructive warmonger

All religious laws cause deep divisions in societies, lots of pain and suffering for people. Any law thats religiously orientated is a suppressive law. As too stating my sources, its biological and genetic history. Any fool, except maybe the religious would know that.

Its religion that invents things, take Joshua and Jericho. When the supposed Joshua arrived at Jericho, the walls had been down for more than 100 years, caused by an earthquake. When he and his murdering mob arrived, Jericho was undefended so the great god fearing Joshua with his universal love, went in and slaughtered everyone, a true lover of god. It was common in those days for armies to use sound as a weapon.

You can see how hypocritical and despotic your religious laws are. Take incest, Lot had sex with his daughters. Then theres Cain and Able, explain their actions. It appears monotheists make moral laws so that they can flout them, being above everyone else they will be forgiven. Suppress the populance, then abuse them, thats religious history through the ages.

But I wont bother you with more details, your brain must be full after reading the first line.

mangotreeone1,
Who is Mangotreeone1?:
1. "I do not believe in justified killing of other human beings."
Does he then believe in unjustified killing of other people? Does he believe in Justice? Both these points were lacking in the trial of Jesus. His killing was unjust, and any reasonable justice was denied as their religious laws were applied. Does he believe no one should die to preserve justice when threatend by an unjust death?

2. "I dont have to be a member of a God Club to be close to Jesus."
Does he believe Jesus does not belong to any religion?

3. "If I was a Muslim you would call me a terrorist."
Is he a terrorist according the current definitions of the war on terror? Is he encouraging violence or terror on non-Muslims?

4.If I was a member of your God Club[ you would say I was a heretic.

Is he a heretic on his own definitions of God. If not why does he identify himself as one?

mangotreeone1: We have a jury system which is flawed in as much as they have condemned the innocent. If one really believed in the death penalty one would have to be prepared to be the executioner as well - not my bag.
No! nothing is the same as nailing our Saviour to the cross though here we are all guilty of causing His death. Why would I call you a terrorist if you were a moslem or a heretic if you were a Christian?
I am not a member of any God club. Yes Jesus did say forgive them all [the thief on the cross was forgiven, was he a pagan Gentile or a lapsed Jew - who knows it doesn't say] not just those who believe but all mankind. Whether they today are pagan moslem terrorists, Catholic terrorists, gentle buddhists, agnostic or even atheists everyone was referred to here by the Son of God - everyone who has lived or will live, that's all mankind.
I do not attack people as such I attack their ideas and concepts. I may use sarcasm but if you think I have attacked you I apologise.
I have stated numerous times I DO NOT HATE MOSLEMS I do hate their pagan Godless, brutal, lying, misogynistic false death loving religion.

You say you could be seen as a heretic, what would I be seen as? - I believe that every person will be saved, that's every single person who has ever lived or will live . I do not believe in a literal hell fire which tortures people forever and ever. I do not think that we humans have freewill like we think we have God is in complete charge and everything is going to and will go in accordance to His will and plan. YOU mangotreeone1 are a part of this plan, YOU mangotreeone1 WILL be saved along with The alchemist. You see God loves you with an intensity that is beyond our pathetic imagination. numbat

Poor Alchemist, desperately trying to prove he/she is something/ someone he/she is not! Nice try but you did sink into the slime of vindictiveness and sarcasm....and that blows your cover. It took you long enough to speak of a "spelling mistake"....all I was aksing is if you mean the same as "canaanites"....which, apparently, you don't.....fair enough. Then you go off in your own little world completely muddying the issue with "marxists", "cabalah", "Egyptians", "Jews". Did you smoke or drink something just prior to penning this junmbled mess?

And you still haven't cited your scientific sources re "cannonite blood" that genetists, supposedly, have proven infects Jews, Christians and Arabs. What books, scientific journals are we supposed to read to enlighten ourselves re these matters......or is this secret knowledge that only you posseses?

Speaking of 'blood' and genetics....

Our Lord had 'Moabite' blood in him.. from Ruth.

I've just returned from our Easter morning meeting, went to Belgrave Heights convention, and for a change did NOT get fined by some lurking policeman with a radar gun :) (got caught one trip in a newly made '50' zone which I thought was still 60)

The important thing is.... in whom is our hope. Alchemist appears to have none.. Mango made an important point about not needing to be a member of a 'god club' to be close to Jesus... indeed..

But Mango, that suggests to us that you have had a 'bad church experience' and you should be mature enough to recognize that such things are par for the course, go with the territory etc.. and that meeting with fellow believers is a wonderful uplifting experience.

Its a matter of searching out those who are in fact sincere and fair dinkum.

Blessings all... and remember.. "It is friday..but SUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNday is a comin" :)

have a listen: http://www.tonycampolo.org/media.php

Follow the link and click on the talk with that name.

As a Christian we believe:
All persons stand equal before one God.
All persons have fallen short of God the divine standard set for man.

Reconciliation [restorative justice] is required to be paid for all offenses.
Christ Jesus by his death made atonement for our spiritual offenses against God.
Imputed perfection before God is availabe to all who recognise their offenses and accept Christ atoned for those offenses against God.

As Christians we must therefore reflect the heart and nature of God in dealing with offenses against society. All persons, without exception, are equal in our society and before the State laws.

Any person unjustly removing [theiving, opressing] another's quality of life before the law is guilty of an offense. However the guilty must also face a just [equal] and fair trial. If guilt is established they must repay the State for their offense. The State has a responsibility to the offended individual to ensure their equality is restored. This is done by repaying something from the offending person, as a just [equal] recompense [atonement].

Under Shari'ah male believers in Allah have more priviledge and social opportunities and equality is not practised. Outsiders are viewed as not more than slaves in such a society, and made subservient to Allah's people. Our Christian understanding of the nature of God, as revealed by Christ places Allah as an unjust god.

Hense the capture and submission of kafir girls by Muslim males for sexual pleasure is not considered a grose injustice by Allah's laws. As Mahomet interpreted human behaviour under Allah's eternal-laws the taking of female sex slaves from among the kafir is acceptable. Hense their multiple wives and sex slaves [concubines], as practised by Muslim culture.

In the mind of many Muslim males now in Australia they follow an interpreatation of the Qur'an that considers outsiders as opponents of Allah and lesser persons under Shariah justice. Muslim wemon as half the value of a man, and kafir women as not more than sluts [sex slaves]. Hense the rejection of our social standards, flouting of our laws, equal justice and the Police.

Numbat, sorry if I hurt your feelings, knowing Christ was executed on this day by religious fanatics makes me sad,, we all travel the same road the difference is the signposts I follow are not covered in graffiti,
Boazy believes I have had a run in with some church, as a matter of fact I have read almost every religious book, every version of the Bible I could get my hands on, I have visited the Holy shrines of most religions, people who go to Holy places to find a feeling of goodness, the reaction of all the people at these shrines were the same, Christians, Jews and Muslims all reacted the sameway, being close to God was a out of this world experiance, imagine what it would be like to actually sit down and have a beer with Jesus, for a start you would be certain of the next life, you could never be angry again. I have spent more than a decade studying greed and hatred, religion came out on top, hundreds of millions of people have been put to death for belonging to the wrong God Club, religion has always accomodated their political masters, The Fires of Hell were invented by King Solomon the evidence to prove this is in the good books, God loves us all, those who believe God dishes out punishment are insane, it is only when you take a good look at God Clubs you realise they have got it wrong, maybe the reason is they are worshiping a antichrist disguised as God,

mangotreeone1:A lot of men & women are looking for a belief, yet as strange as it sounds the Creator God is looking for us. He has a love towards us that beggars description.
Always keep in mind that everything is going according to plan - God's plan and He will work it out the way He has planned it. Neither you nor I have to agree with how He is going about it
The good news - Gospel -is He has planned for all that's for everyone to make it.
Man-made religion invented the everlasting hell fire. In God's Word there is no fire which tortures anyone for eternity. If God, as is said by main stream religion, destroys the majority of mankind then by His own Bible He has failed and He will not fail at all. numbat

Francis, you sure have an understanding of your beliefs, compared to me. The sign of a true christian. If you want a hint from an unknowing one, check the Bible.

For example, the wives of Jacob's 12 sons included a Canaanite and an Egyptian. Moses married a Midianite woman and then a cush-ite (classed as a profanity if spelled in full). Samson married a Philistine. At least two non-Israelite female ancestors figured in King David's genealogy. Mixed marriages between Samaritans and Judaites were common.

One study I read was by, Dr. David Goldstein, Dr. Mark Thomas and Dr. Neil Bradman of University College, in London. It appeared in The American Journal of Human Genetics in 2002. Its published other articles relating to this over the past few years.

"The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East."

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html

http://www.egeinfonet.i8.com/news/2001/nov/

http://phoenicia.org/genetics.html

Theres the normal conroversy, when evidence comes alomg that blows another hole in the reasoning of monothiests, time will tell.

Bd, I don't need the flimsiness of, “in whom is our hope”. One may just grasp at a straw in a raging cyclone, as live in hope of god.

Evolving beyond the fear, violence and superstition of monothiestics, allows you to see ahead in evolutionary step. To attain that, doesn't require a god, but understanding and working with the energies that make up this dimensional universve and what may surround or be within it

Numbat says things are going to gods plan. A god that has planned and made laws, those in his own image flauntconstantly, yet still seek forgiveness. A god that allows his followers to destroy his creation by trying to control and abuse the living beings that reside here. What god is that, other than a reflection of its followers who are made and act in his image.

Philo, Numbat, where did you get your beliefs from, if religion is wrong.

The alchemist: You neither know the Bible nor the power of God.
PS. I do not give a flying fig for what you think of me! But do you know what you YES you will be saved by this very God you seem to belittle. numbat

The alchemist,
Essentially religion is a set of daily or regular practises or ritualistic laws followed in an attempt to supposedly appease God or spirits. It has evolved often from a misrepresentation of the original concept, or as a form of discipline.

Examples: bowing in prayer five times a day, circumcision, using prayer mats or beads, making the sign of the cross when entering a sanctuary, covering ones head when at prayer, praying with clasped hands, believing holy communion will cleanse the soul [conscience] of sins, eating fish on friday, eating unleavened bread, restricting activity on the Sabbath, eating kosher, displaying charms for good fortune, wind chimes to ward off evil spirits, etc. If you have travelled among religious people you will already know their superstitious rituals which is done supposedly to appease.

The teachings of Christ cut across ritual and religious laws which is mere show and superstition. It is not so much that religion is wrong but that it is superficial to reality. The essential thing is the reality; which is manifest from the spirit in character, attitudes and relationships.

No man can say he loves God and despise his brother. The love of God is manifest in the love and care we manifest even to our enemy. It is not a form of sublimation of ones feelings, it is the pure attitude of living forgiving lives.

To develop this attitude a genuine desire is required. Desire is the reality of prayer. "Lord God grant me the peace and assurance to show your genuine concern for A... who persecutes me for being one who desires to emulate you".

Your question, "where did you get your beliefs from, if religion is wrong.

Philo,, belief in God came before humans formed God Clubs to divide up humanity, us and them, the good and the bad ,the God Clubs founding members claimed God belonged to them, some of them said God had spoke to them so they wrote out a set of rules members had to obey , you obey those rules because your memory is loaded with information installed by the commanders of your freedoms, you are unable to think outside the perimiter. Values set in concrete during your indoctrination are responsible for your beliefs, so you will not accept the ideas of anyone else, you never question your conditioned mindset, you were brainwashed,
There is only one creator/God who loves us all , have you ever wondered why the last words of a dying christ were "forgive them father they know not what they do" he was speaking about every Tom Dick and Harry on this planet, you ,me and everyone else, think about that when you put down other people who question the amount of evil oozing out of the foundations of most God Clubs, I call them God Clubs for your benefit, but my instinct tells me Gods name is being used to make murder, rape and looting respectable.
People who pray are cowards, begging God for this, for that, if they stood up for themselves on the two feet God gave them, God would be happy.

Returning to the original topic, The Economist newspaper's Charlemagne column this week discusses Islam in Europe.

QUOTE
In the teeth of traditional teaching, European Muslims are creating a distinctive form of Islam. They are driven by their experience as minorities; by a desire to overcome ethnic differences; and by the trauma of emigration. The first encourages Muslims to co-operate with non-Muslims; the second encourages them to look beyond their traditions; the third forces them to come to terms with change and modernity. Sayed Ghaemmagami, mufti of the Shias in Germany, argues that the situation of Muslims in Europe is unique. “The existence of an Islamic diaspora”, he says, “is totally different from the past and requires new thinking about relations with non-Islamic peoples.” The Koran calls for peaceful relations between Muslims and others, so Muslims should engage with their new countries and not set up parallel structures. “We must participate in all activities of life, as students, as businessmen, as social workers,” says Ahmed al-Rawi, president of the Federation of Islamic Organisations in Europe...

... it is hard to believe that an Islam that is more open to democracy, sexual equality, and modernity would have no effect in the Middle East. And, uncertain and gradual as its gestation may be, that seems to be the Islam that European Muslims are trying to create.
END QUOTE

http://economist.com/World/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=6800741

Typical religious answer Philo, avoid it. I asked where you got your beliefs from, not to write what we all know about religion. Where you got your beliefs, the sources. How you gauge those sources to be correct, what evidence do you have to support those sources, if not from religious books.

Numbat, you must be running out of straws to grasp at. I have no thoughts about you one way or the other. To me monotheists are just irresponsible breakers of universal laws, unable to take responsibility for their lives and actions, so put it on a myth and hope they don't have to explain their actions to anyone. Thats why there is so much suppression and violence involved with these deluded expressions. Trying to uphold and enforce the unsustainable, always leads to suppression and violence.

No one is yet to provide any evidence that monotheistic laws, beliefs and actions have been of any benefit to this planet, just the opposite is placed before us. Since monotheistic inception, the planet has gone down hill to the point where life on earth is being challenged. Theres only one thing thats doing this, monotheistic beliefs. If you separated all those monotheists that haven't done some evil in the name of god (thoughts, action), there wouldn't be any left. Actually thats not a bad thing.

Mike M, thats just a typical ploy by the religious, once they have calmed things, they will again begin their underhanded attempts to influence and gain control. You can see the Christian's doing it here now. They say one thing then push for their controls

MIke quoted:

[.. it is hard to believe that an Islam that is more open to democracy, sexual equality, and modernity would have no effect in the Middle East. And, uncertain and gradual as its gestation may be, that seems to be the Islam that European Muslims are trying to create.]

If "Christian" leaders began making pronouncements that

-'sex b4 marraige and extra marital sex is all ok' (to 'adapt' to contemporary attitudes)

-People having sexual gratification from their own gender.

-Its ok for mature men to have sexual relations with young boys

-Its ok for humans to have sex with animals

All this would definitely fit the 'attitudes of many' in this age, but there is only one problem....

It would certainly NOT be 'Christianity'.

Mike, you point to a 'flexible' Islam in Europe, yet appear to be oblivious to the 'long term goal' and the 'Medinan/Meccan' phases in the growth of Islam.

An Islam which sees itself as 'co-operating with, living under' pagan/idolatrous/people of the book, is something, for sure....

... but its not Islam

Unless.... all that is in the context of the ultimate goal of living under Sharia.

BOAZ

The Economist's European correspondents are better informed as to what is happening in the European Islamic communities than you are. I give more credence to their reports than to your fact-free conspiracy theories.

Sharia law won't come to Australia because as the writer says there are many differing degrees of so-called "Sharia law.

Like all legal systems it may have some good ideas. The one thing our laws have moved away from is barbarism. Sharia Law in many cases hasn't ... nor has western law that allows the death penalty.

But of course there are degrees of barbarism. Recently the USA govt seemed to be justifying torture. Is torture barbarism? It also justified taking alleged "enemy combatitants" outside International Law and the US justice system. This was a dangerous development "under law" as it opens the door to misuse of the legal system. Hardly a big tick for a democratic country.

The extension of this could be to take ordinary citizens off-shore for interrogation purposes to by-pass a countries laws... dangerous stuff!

Sharia Law if practised in it's moderate form may have some attributes to it but like all law it is in the interpretation of those laws where the problems lie. If you cut off someones hand for stealing you are back to barbarism.

Islam and Judaism are eye for an eye religions and Christianity is a turn the other cheek religion. The USA is confused in this area. It calls itself a Christian and yet carries out the death penalty (an eye for an eye)in many states. From my reading of the bible you can't have it both ways without defying Jesus' teachings.

Our legal system has developed over 1000's of years also and it is continually moderating itself to be fair & just for all. On occassion it appears to fail but there are mechanisms in place to appeal judgements.

Try appealing a missing hand or a stretched neck after the event. Sharia law will never come to Australia either will USA law. That is one area where I must commend the majority of our pollies... they won't accept the reintroduction for the death penalty and neither they should.

The alchemist: Christianity not a bad "myth?" eh? the largest and most free of the religions of the world. The religion of the nations where most of the humanitarian, social, inventive advances have taken place - not perfect but not bad for a myth eh?
You are living under Judaic/Christian law, in the main, in this free democratic nation. Pray tell oh gem of wisdom under what other religion in what other country would you settle in? numbat

Islam is getting such a bad press and seems to have little to offer apart from generating and attracting fanatics. I fail to see what there is to gain by adopting any form of sharia law. All you would accomplish is credibility for a backward system that has no place in a modern democratic society. What would such an infusian do to the abortion debate and stem cell research? let alone foster shares!

Alchemist,
Most of my beliefs have come by observing people and things that work best for society, humanity, environment and human relationships. During my teenage years I rebelled for a while until I realised there was some wisdom in Christianity that I needed to learn. I have read and studied the evolving revelation of spiritual truth found in the Scripture and the writings contemporary. Beside reading the life of Jesus and the writings of the apostles initiated in me respect for the message they gave. I have former ministers of several different Christian denominations in my siblings and their childern including Orthodox Jews, including Jerusalem trained Rabbi.

I grew up in the bush on the far north coast of NSW [1940 - 1952] near Coffs Harbour and Bellingen and came to appreciate the natural Creation. Much of my beliefs come from a love of the natural Creation. I have seen native plants and animals few will ever see as I lived and then played in unspoiled creeks and virgin forest. I was a highly productive farmer for 36 years and an active protestor to unsafe developments polluting watertables, destroying natural ecosystems, and productive environments, [and in fact still am, including recent plantings of over 60 hectare reaforestation on the Johns River farm].

I have often thought that there would be less people from Muslim countries seeking to come to Australia if they were shown videos of what life is really like here, how difficult it will be to raise children in a society where social norms and mores are in such stark juxatoposition to Islam. "Your sons will be lead into temptation"

Democracy and Islamic Law Don't Mix, Iraqi Official Says
CNS News, David Thibault, 10 April 2006

”Despite President Bush's insistence that the Iraqi "people want there to be a democracy," a pro-American member of Iraq's new parliament claims there is "no relationship between Islam and democracy." Islamic or "sharia" law has "nothing to do with democracy or human rights," according to Iyad Jamal Al-Din, and mixing Islam and democracy "is like mixing Marxists and capitalists."

Al-Din escaped Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime in 1979 but returned and was elected to the Iraqi Parliament last Dec. 15. He addressed an April 6 luncheon sponsored by the Middle East Media Research Institute.”
AT: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200604/SPE20060410a.html

Why are people so threatened by an alternative world view to their own? Are their values really that delicate?

What i took from this article is that we should seek to understand other cultures and accept that they may include something of value - rather than dismiss an alternative way of seeing the world outright because it doesn't conform with our own narrow values and experiences.

I certainly don't think the writer was advocating that Australia abandon our own laws in favour of Sharia law, as some alarmist commentators seem to be suggesting.

If we have to have every nations laws in place in Oz then let us bring back stonong to death for adultery and any thing we decide is not good or moral.
Oh by the way I read ona website last week that a woman was stoned to death which was started by a 5 years old Muslim boy who had to learn that women were eviland had to be killed ,it was a gruesome story as the woman would not die until a man dropped a huge rock on her head from 6ft up,then there was the 13 year old girl only their heads showing and 15 years old boy recently stoned to death for some small crime in an Arab state.
Could we really approve of and agree with this in Judeo- Christian Australia?
Our Christian God is Love .
Christ came to do away with the archaic laws and gave us liberty and freedom.
We do not want to go backwards 5,000 years but go forward.

Last Saturday a small Muslim group, Hizb ut-Tahrir, held a public meeting at the Bankstown Town Hall to discuss whether Australia's Muslims really should subscribe to those values Costello mentioned.

The answer was: No. No to democracy, a secular society and Australia first.

For instance, Usman Badar, president of the University of NSW Muslim Students Association, told the 300 or so people that "Western values are not worthy of human subscription".

Take democracy: "Democracy sounds nice enough, (but) not to a Muslim . . . Sovereignty is for none but Allah." And "Allah did not say . . . whatever the people want, we'll have this."

As for a secular society, "it relegates Allah to the margins of public life and places human beings above him. This, to put it blatantly, is as blasphemous as it gets".

Nor was any overriding loyalty to Australia possible. "The overriding commitment of a Muslim is to Allah, and Allah alone."

I expect to hear the usual protests -- that Hizb ut-Tahrir and the Muslim Students Association are small, representing few people.

But surely it's now clear that far too many Muslim activists and leaders have at times seemed to reject Australian values and even Australians themselves. To remind you of some of them:

cont:

Melbourne cleric Abdul Nacer Ben Brika: "This is a big problem. There are two laws -- there is an Australian law and there is an Islamic law."

Melbourne's Sheik Mohammad Omran: "We believe we have more rights than you because we choose Australia to be our country and you didn't."

American Sheik Khalid Yasin, then based in Sydney: "There's no such thing as a Muslim having a non-Muslim friend."

Khaled Cheikho, now on terrorism charges in Sydney: "Sharia law is gonna prevail through this land, it's gonna be ruled by it, you tell Howard this."

Sheik Faiz Mohamad, of Sydney's Global Islamic Youth Centre: "A victim of rape every minute somewhere in the world. Why? No one to blame but herself."

The Mufti of Australia, Sheik Taj el-din el-Hilali, who called the September 11 attacks "God's work against oppressors" and blamed "Australian society" for pack rapes by gangs of Muslim Lebanese youths.

Keysar Trad, of the Islamic Friendship Association: "The criminal dregs of white society colonised this country and . . . the descendents of these criminal dregs tell us that they are better than us."

There's more, but you get the message. Perhaps it's time more responsible Muslim leaders got it, too, and realised they'd do more good by criticising their radicals than by attacking those who confront them.

The real battle is not, or should not be, between Muslims and non-Muslims.

It is as Arab-American psychiatrist Wafa Sultan bravely put it in a debate on Al-Jazeera two months ago: "It is a clash between civilisation and backwardness, between the civilised and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality. It is a clash between freedom and oppression, between democracy and dictatorship."

The hard truth is more Muslim spokesmen need to join us on the right side of that battle . . . and to fight with us, not against.

At: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,18809142%255E25717,00.htm

I don't always fully follow the religous conversations that take place on this site so I can't make many constructive comments towards their meaning. However, notwithstanding a lack of religious knowledge, I am still fascinated by those who would seek to RE-combine church with state such as those few who, like the OLO author, who sees "no problem" with importing sharia "law" into Australian law.

So for those who are interested, I thought this article in the Asia Times two days ago was really really interesting and might add to debate from those commenters in a position to compare two religions and their approaches to morality, society and government.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HD18Aa02.html

From the net: BAGHDAD , Iraq - Separate groups of gunmen entered two primary schools in Baghdad on Wednesday and beheaded two teachers in front of their students, the Ministry of State for National Security.
End of quote, of course we can expect? all so-called moderate pagan islamics, especially in Australia, to deplore this action can't we?
I believe these gutless, psychopaths were Salvation Army members or Methodists. No of course they were from the peace loving Isslimic religion eh? - naturally, who else would commit such uncivilised brutal barbarity on defenseless, unarmed teachers.
Australia, that's decent Australia, needs bloodthirsty butchers like these doesn't it? numbat. PS no I do not hate the stupid moslems but I do hate their death-loving mysogynistic bloody pagan religion.

Philo,
you can pick up a recording of the Bankstown Hizb-ut-Tahrir meeting you mention at:

http://democracyfrontline.org/news/?p=387

"The hard truth is more Muslim spokesmen need to join us on the right side of that battle . . . and to fight with us, not against."

Nice thought Philo, but I'm sure it's not allowed somenow under sharia law or with in the Koran...

btw apparently there were several hundered people at the HuT meeting in Bankstown, just one suburb! We all know who HuT are don't we... maybe finally now we can lay to rest the myth of "its only a tiny minority of extremists."

Personally I think the public should see the real feelings of muslism who speak as you quote above or write emotive facades about something like Easter when they also have a bad habit of calling people armchair nazi's.

It's a waste of time asking them to be decent when we see more and more everyday they cannot / will not hold to our (the host countries) standard of decency

Example of Shari'ah:

BAIL OF PAKISTANI CHRISTIAN WOMAN DENIED
Full item: By Sheraz Khurram Khan, Special Correspondent for Assist News Service in Pakistan
KASUR, PAKISTAN (ANS) -- A Christian woman who was charged with desecration of picture of Khana Kabah, the Muslim holy place in Saudi Arabia on March 3, will continue to languish in special solitary cell as her bail was denied by the court on April 7.
The family members of Naseem have fled from their native home and gone in hiding due to fear of attacks by hard-line Muslim groups.
According to the Pakistan Christian Post (PCP), the jail administration denied a Sharing Life Ministry Pakistan (SLMP) team a visit to the blasphemy accused.
The SLMP team has issued an exclusive statement from her husband, Gulzar Masih to expose the tribulations of the woman accused of blasphemy.

“On March 3, 2006 many Muslim residents of the area gathered in the market near our house to protest against publication of the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad. They were raising slogans against the US president George W. Bush, abusing him and Christianity too”.

The spouse of the blasphemy accused went on to tell the SLMP team: “My elder daughter named Sahiba saw them (anti-cartoon protesters) passing by the house. Naseem Bibi was washing clothes at that time. There is a heap of garbage near our house. Sahiba saw that one of the protesters was making a sign of cross on the heap of garbage with the plaster of paris. Sahiba came in and told Naseem about the desecration of cross on the heap. They were also burning the effigy of President Bush. Naseem rushed there and quarreled with them. She voiced her concern about the desecration of cross besides protesting against the abuses the Muslim protesters were allegedly hurling at President Bush and Christianity.
“They were large in number; they clutched Naseem and tortured her severely. They stripped her clothes publicly”
cont:

Ro,

The article to which you link mentions Egyptian intellection, author and Islamist Sayyid Qutb in its first and third paragraphs (although it misspells his name). Later it likens Qutb's mission to an effort of Thomas Jefferson who, if I understand the article, stands accused of vilely helping to write France's Declaration of the Rights of Man.

In the final few paragraphs, Woolley likens Qutb's sentiments to those of Abraham Lincoln.

The man is a nut case.

Qutb attracts very mixed views. This weird article by a New Mexico lawyer with no obvious expertise in Islam or the Middle East tells us nothing useful apart from the fact that it is not just amongst Muslims that you find peculiar people.

For a more balanced assessment of Qutb, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb

Qutb's Koranic interpretations are often hostile to the West, partly as a result of his experience of attending university in the United States, but I don't see much in them to link him with Jefferson or Lincoln.

If Qutb was trying to produce an Islamic equivalent of France's Declaration of the Rights of Man, that is another thing altogether of course. We know what the French are like.

Read the Declaration at http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/rightsof.htm and just understand how a similar declaration for the Islamic world would destroy our society, peace and the Western way of life for evermore.

Torture and imprisonment of Naseem Bibi convicted of Blasphemy - Shari'ah justice cont:

“They were large in number; they clutched Naseem and tortured her severely. They stripped her clothes publicly”
The husband of Naseem Bibi, whose ordeal has obviously been made worse after the court turned down her bail further told SLMP: “After beating Naseem Bibi they left her. But after a while some Muslims again came to our home. Naseem hid herself in a trunk. Carrying a picture of Khana Kabah smudged with defecation the angry protesters wanted to kill Naseem Bibi for allegedly desecrating the picture”.

“Meanwhile someone informed a lady councilor of our locality about the situation. She made a phone call to the emergency police. The police came and asked the mob about the matter. They lodged a complaint with the police about the insult of picture of Khana Kabah. The police entered our house and asked about Naseem. My daughter Sahiba told the police that Naseem was hiding in a trunk out of fear of mob. After recovering Naseem Bibi from the trunk they (police) thrashed her and took her to the police station.”

The husband of Naseem Bibi told one of the team members of SLMP that he was at home when the incident happened but, fearing mob, he kept quiet, the PCP reported.
He further told the SLMP that he did not know what happened afterwards.

“I went to jail to visit my wife but the jail management did not allow me to meet her,” the PCP quoted Gulzar as telling SLMP team.
The SLMP team also obtained legal documents of lawsuit against Naseem. The case has been registered vide FIR No. 93 dated 3rd March 2006 offence under section 295-A with the police station A/Division Kasur."
At http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s06040034.htm

Boaz (and other members of the Christian Taliban movement),

Interesting you accuse Dawood of 'turning his back on christ'.
The only people who turn their back on Jesus (and his teachings) are the likes of yourself, Baraka, Coach, Kaktuz and all the other nuts on these forums who uses Jesus to promote intolerance of Islam and Muslims. Your 'gang' and Islamo facists are one of the same: you both don't tolerate the existence of the other.
Those who 'practice' tolerance should see all religions as 'ways of worship' and only God can know and judge whats inside.

Peace my friends, or better: Adios muchachos!

Well said Fellow human, you speak the truth. Followers of Jesus are just the same as followers of Mohammed. However just like your protagonists, you all revert to god.

Non believers see god as the real problem, it doesn't matter which faction of god followers you pick, in the end there all the same. Your all so blinded by your infantile violent beliefs, that you can't see the reality you are causing the world by following this despotic and destructive monotheism.

It matters not what religion it is, if Islam is suppressed and banished from this country then the Christians will push for tougher laws on abortions, personal freedoms and will strive to control government policy thats orientated to Christian morals. History shows us they have in the past, religious laws have caused so much heart ache and death to so many.

Even with all this turmoil between monotheists, it hasn't brought your god to the rescue of anyone. Nor has your god voiced his opinion other than through violent and suppressive acts, by his followers around the world and in every society they exist in.

Fellow human, provide me with an instance of religious Islamic law that enhances, frees and supports individuals thats not discriminatory or sectarian. Same goes for Christians, your so into abuse of others, so support your stand by providing a Christian religious law that benefits individuals in their freedom of choice and ability to lead a life free from suppression.

Philo, why haven't you also included all the people who've been harmed by Christian zealots using religious laws. Even in this day and age, we read daily of Christian or Jewish zealots who have caused great harm by forcing their version of god onto someone against their will. But I suppose they aren't true Christians, just fakes that you only count when you want to emphasis that a country is Christian. Very malleable monotheists, real miracles, by using figures to suit or deny your involvement, a truly apt religious approach

Fellow_Human: Christian taliban movement? come on F/H we are not bloodthirsty, brutal and yes! pagan unthinking psychopaths.
Jesus, ours the very Son of God, not yours a pagan prophet, said some quite nasty things too and about the Judaic priesthood of the day. Do you really think that this God in the flesh would have said nice things about a religion which totally denies Him and denegrates Him from mankind's Messiah to a pagan prophet, a religion which describe His followers as ,filth, pigs and dogs and preach hatred and death towards them?
All religion cannot be the way of worship, there's only one true religion, just one. One main main religion was begun by a murdering, robbing, pedophilic, kidnapper,liar and rapist. It's all in his terrorist h/book for all to read and make a judgement on whether he is really a prophet.
The other by a Man who preached peace and compassion and who died for all mankind including those who were the reason for His death yes all of us including you F/H
Again open your eyes read the newspapers, watch TV, read news magazines listen to your preachers and after that do you really think that you follow the way/religion of peace, really? numbat

Alchemist, I totally agree with you about religion. They are all the same in the way that they give a kind of “prescription for living” so people don’t have to think any more, and don’t have to make the effort to live in a kind and compassionate way, thinking that if they only “believe” in the prescription, then they personally will be saved.
Unfortunately, the veneer of civilisation and rational thought is very thin among humankind, just scratch a little below the surface and you come up against the primitive stone-age mind, which was once a good survival mechanism for the human race, but now threatens to lead to its demise.
If we can’t get religion out of the human psyche, then I fear that all this religious antagonism is going to lead to a third world war, which, with the weapons we now possess, will lead to the utter destruction of human civilisation.
The cold war between the west and communism was nothing compared to what is coming if we don’t change our ways and become more civilised.
We must realise that we are very small in the scheme of things, living on a small planet near a middle-sized, middle-aged sun, two thirds of the way out on the rim of an average galaxy, which is only one of billions of such galaxies contained in the universe.
Arguments about “God”, whoever or whatever “God” is, are absolutely of no consequence in the overall scheme of things. And those who believe they talk to “God” are in my view little more than psychotic.
The real challenge to religion and its outmoded belief in the supernatural will come when we meet other civilisations in our own galaxy, assuming of course that the religious in our society allow us to progress to that level.

Numbat, maybe it is time for you to go back to Sunday School you seem to have forgotten every thing you ever learned about religion, you are now playing by it ear, making it up as you go along. you should check out the life story of Solomon the most evil person to ever walk on this earth, he even said he was on speaking terms with God, in the banquet halls of his many Temples they spoke about Gog and Maygog the mytical evil doers. the were renamed Satan the evil ones. the Devil, Solomon had 700 sex slaves, tens of thousands of none Jewish Slaves, the Bible tells you how he treated those none Jewish slaves, you should read it some time,
You still continue to attack Islam. when you compare the actions of those people who you claim are the very foundations of your religion against Islam , Solomon is a thousand times more evil than any Muslim , any investigation of history proves this to be true,

mangotreeone1: Where in blue blazes did you get all that false idiotic garbage about Solomon. No don't tell me it was from an old book written by the third cousin of Noah's granddaughter's half sister's third cousin or maybe it's from that famous terrorist's hand book. Why that clown big al put all that derogatory, libelous self history in it is beyond me entirely. Take you Milo and a blue pill and go back to sleep. completely mystified, numbat

Numbat,

Your ignorance of religious history is undeniable,

How is life in the dustbin of history, anyways

mango,

Your ignorence of reality is worse... in sydney i can feel safe i will not be attacked by Christian gangs or Jewish malitias....

I do deeply and correctly fear for my safty in islamic suburbs. This has nothing to do with religion, im athiest anyway... it's just plain common sense

Froggy: There has always been a Creator God, there always will be a Creator God. Anyone with half a brain looking at all those universes would have to agree or at least have suspicions. So you don't believe there is such an Entity will that make this Supreme Entity go away? - NO! numbat

Dear Numbat, I know it must be difficult for you to accept that no God may exist. I simply don't know one way or the other. I have never seen or heard him/her/it, never conversed with the entity, never has he/she/it spoken to me or communicated with me in any way.
I cannot say that God does not exist; I'm simply saying, I don't know.
The universe is a very big place. It is tempting to believe that a supreme creator created it all.
I need real evidence, though. Not words from a book or books which appear to have been written by primitive humans, who did not even have a rudimentary knowledge about the nature of the universe.
One must observe that religion, (of any name) which purports to be the basis of our ethics and laws, and an explanation of the existence and purpose of the universe, has appeared to have failed to improve the nature of the people who adhere to its tenets, even if only judging by the ill-will exhibited here by many contributors. Very sad.
The results of religious belief seem to have proven time and again that religion is a divisive force, rather than something which brings all people together.
It seems to lead to violence and destruction, rather than peace, goodwill and reconciliation.
That is one of the reasons I reject it-apart from the fact that there is no scientific proof.

Froggie,
Could you please give us laws that have had absolutely no religious input that has advanced society and community.
Examples:
1.
2.
3.
4.
You obviously believe society would be better without laws based in religious values or input from religion. It is pointless to merely be constantly negative - demonstrate you have real insight into the human condition and can bring advancement to society without religious values. We wait with real interest!

Dear Philo, a lot of our laws are based on the ideas of the Greek philosophers. In particular, Socrates, from where the “Socratic method” comes, which is used to test hypotheses and eliminate those that lead to contradictions, and this method is taught in law schools.
It is true that religions have co-opted philosophical ideas to incorporate into their dogma.
However, it is not for me to prove the existence or non-existence of God, or to disprove the influence of religion on our laws.
It is for you, as the protagonist of these ideas, to prove the existence of God, and the religious basis of our laws.
You are evidently more versed in religion than I am, and you are the one making the assertions about God and religion.
I therefore invite you to prove your assertions.

Froggie,
It is easy to destroy a house of card it is another to build one. Come on you could have at least had a go to identify one law that is not based in religious values; which you claim is destroying society.

Quote, "The results of religious belief seem to have proven time and again that religion is a divisive force, rather than something which brings all people together. It seems to lead to violence and destruction, rather than peace, goodwill and reconciliation."

Martin Luther was a graduate and professor in Law, philosophy and the Greek philosophers before entering the Priesthood. This did not deminish his faith in God it rather enhanced it. At the time he looked for reality in faith unlike the Papacy who solicited money for indulgences to build religious palaces. He placed value in one's spiritual relationship to God above the use of secular schemes to build an empire.

Values are spiritual and sacred and come from the very soul of who we are as human. These we identify as implanted by the very nature of God in His creation. That you prefer not to believe in a Creator of our universe does not make your values more relavent than those that do. If there is no Creator in our view means that there is no one to whom we are accountable.

Philo, and yet Martin Luther had his own corruptions......to hold Luther up as some white knight on a steed come to rescue a waiting public is a distortion of reality. For example, it is not for nothing that Luther has been called: "The Spiritual Ancestor of the Nazis". Combine that with his hatred of the peasantry and we have a real beaut bloke.

Froggy: Have a good look around and you will find all the proof you need for a Creator God. Do you really think that many of us believers welcomed the concept of God when we first began our belief.
But by looking around our globe and the many, many universes I can readily see that He does exist. There is absolutely no way, whatever some "learned?" people may say to the contrary, that us, this globe and the heavens could have just happened - we/they were all planned.
I mean what other proof do you require? You feel the wind but cannot see it, you feel the heat of the sun but you cannot see heat, the same with creation. If you want a physical contact then you will have to wait awhile, but it will occur, and you will be so thankful when it does. numbat

Francis,
Martin Luther was not without his faults [I never claimed he was not] but in the context of froggie's point that We owe more to the Greek philosophers than faith in God in making good laws did not deter Luther from his search for reality in faith, while he previously had been a professor in the Greek philosophers.

He had more going for him as a Priest than did the corrupt Papacy of his day. [I am not Lutheran] He was considered a heretic by the Roman Church because he denounced and exposed the money payed for forgivness of sins as sanctioned by the Papacy and maintained a relationship with God was based in confession, repentance and faith. He had a lot more going for him in this regard than did the Papacy. Which you seem to defend with dishonest pride

Philo......who suffers from dishonest pride.? You seem to whitwash Luther's corruption (which extends to this day!) In my Protestant days I was guilty of the same sin. It's when one comes to realize that the Protestant reformers were as corrupt (pride, arrogance, greed, brutality, divisiveness etc) as the Papacy that they railed against. In fact, they replaced one sin with greater sins!Talk about let those whithout sin cast the first stone! You seem to think that his hatred of Jews and peasants was just some minor glitch! Bear in mind that most of the Protestant reformers supported torture etc and that Prtotestants were as "good" at capital punishment for various offences as any catholic. So, those who live in glass houses should definitely NOT throw stones!

Francis,
Many of my closest friends and family are Catholic and they are not into this Romanism v Protestanism nonsence I can tell you they are deeply devoted to God not the Roman Church. We pray together and share the miracle of answered prayer. They as I am devoted to truth and reality as found in God not to some religious dogma espoused by a particular Church. Stop defending the injustices of one against another, it has become an obsession of yours. Look for truth and justice in any man who will bring goodness and enlightenment, its not just the domain of Roman Catholics. On this Forum you are a Romanist bigot

Philo,

And you are irrational. You espouse the corruption of the Catholic Church and yet seem to draw nourishment and approval from your connection with Catholics. You are blind to the corruption of Protestantism (its disunity; it's sectarianism; its abuse of Sacred Scripture) and you have the gall to lecture others. If you were really devoted to truth and reality (whatever reality may be to you or to anyone) then you would recognise this without living in the past shackled to what you say was the corruption of the papacy etc.back in the 16th century. Your ignorance shows in your reference to "the Roman Church"......this is the Church of the Diocese of Rome, which happens to be where the Bishop of Rome, the successor of St Peter, has his cathedra. The other Catholic bishops, of both the Latin and Eastern rites, are in communion with this see. You are the one obsessed.....with what you perceive to be the corruptions of the past whilst being very selective about what corruption s you will focus on and which ones you will ignore. I have never held that goodness and enlightment are the preserve of the Catholic Church......in this you are off with the pixies. Your use of the term "Romanist" shows who the bigot really is. But, don't worry, I used to use such terms back in my Protestant days so I know just how envy and insecurity feels.

Back to sharia law: The following are extracts from an article entitled " Arab Mentality: Murder of Women"
'Several thousand women every year are victims to "honour?" killings'
'Many women are killed and buried in unmarked graves: their very existence is removed from community and clan records'
'Women are killed by their fathers, husbands, brothers, uncles, cousins or sons'
'Among palestinians all sexual encounters, including rape and incest, are blamed on the woman. Men are presumed innocent: the woman must have tempted them'.
'A four-year-old palestinian girl, raped by a man in his mid-twenties, was left by her family to bleed to death. They did this because they felt her "misfortune" (my inverted commas)would sully their "honour?"
Any, even a partway decent Christian, atheist or pagan, want pagan islamic brutal, violent, misogynistic, barbarous, stinking sharia law? numbat

Note how Muslim minds see Western thought and behaviour while blind to their own savagery and behaviour.

"The Western Way of Thinking has Taken its Materialism, Egoism, and Savagery From the Ancient Greeks and Romans"

Krekar: "On one side stands the Western way of thinking. This is a way of thinking that has taken its materialism, egoism and savagery from the ancient Greeks and Romans. This is a way of thinking that has altered true Christianity. An example of this is that Western Christianity [today] accepts men having sex with men. That was never accepted by Jesus. On the other side stands Islam, and now the West is trying to take over and change Islam in the same way that Christianity was debased."

Interviewer: "Do you mean that this is a war between civilizations?"

Krekar: "No. There is only one civilization. But there are different ways of thinking about it, and our way of thinking in Islam stands in opposition to the Western way of thinking. Today it is our way of thinking that comes in and shows itself stronger than theirs. Islam has a stable foundation: one God, one Prophet, one Koran, and one tradition. This generates hatred among [those with a] Western way of thinking, and leads the losing party to use violence. And that is the violence and war against Islam."….”

At: http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD11340

Cool! Sharia Law, I can't wait. What sort of screwed up religion can support such ideals in todays society?

When do the executions start? Do we continue to agree to the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights or do we go the Iranian way and start killing 16 year old girls for being raped? Do a search for "Atefah Sahaaleh" and decide for yourself. Lets go for pure Sharia Law and stone peolpe instead of hanging. Seems so much more humane.

Can we also have "moral police" that run child prostitution rings and drug, then rape for fun.

On a side note, if sex before marriage is so taboo to muslims, why are we getting so may gang rapes by muslim boys/men. How sick do you have to be to rape someone? Even sicker to do it with your mates or your brothers!

Maybe we can learn something from Sharia Law and stone these rapists to death! Now that would be worth watching.

Oh dear mangotreeone1: When you get off your medication you may realise that the early 30's have well gone it's now 2006.
Be totally stupid of me to attack either Solomon or David, this may be difficult for you to grasp but both men are dead in their graves.
If any religion earns insults it would have to be the cultish, pagan,heathen, misonygistic, death-loving, lying, brutal islam.
Not all moslems are terrorists BUT! 99% of bloody, cowardly terrorists are islamic.It's not the Methodists/Catholics/Baptists who preach hatred towards and tender dire threats to other religions is it?
It's not the CofE/Salvos who call followers of other religions pigs and monkeys is it?
We now have stringent anti-terrorist laws in this fair country and it is not becase the AOG/Presbyterians are planning terrorist attacks either is it? In what country have islamics not caused strife even going as far as to slay innocent unarmed, unaware men, women, children and babies. What religion "bans?" adultery, homosexuality yet promises the same in their tribal arab paradise?Answers please mangotreeone1 and please stay in the last ten years this time eh! numbat

hello's
Mangotree love your posts so true, I look forward to reading them. A man not afraid af seeing and telling how it really is, many nuggets talk about history then deny it, keep the truth going. The truth is always thrown to the side for people mot to see but keep it happening. The truth needs to be told. My child is 7 he creats a picture for mummy he is proud of whAt he created be it a stick man or a blue moon, being 7 hasnt reach the age of reason, my child is still inicent the sun is yellow the sky is blue no one yet has got to his head to tell him the ske is purple. When he is full of love he smiles, what would he do I wonder if he had a chat with god, dont think he would come back angry his heart would be to full of love even the so called satain could not wipe the smile from his face. A contract is between a party that does not trust the other so Like you I say lets call down their god to stand by them and agree to their doing will he come down- we all know the answer god does not put his name on hate and distruction only love and happiness.

Dont need to look at muslims, people all over the world dishonour women in an ever day living. Seem like your trying to point a finger. I know many here go 2 months a year ever year for 50 years to honour their so called country. many might say they are trators or terrortist living and fighting for another land. Why pledge to a country, they are the ones that needed the contract to begin with they dont trust their own god, greed...... well maybe their god is wearing diamonds, Does god need diamonds !!