After reading this article I am reminded of the United States in the early seventies. That was a time when the abortion debate raged. One of the voices heard the loudest was the Christian voice from the south claiming that Blacks would have a population explosion and outnumber Whites. That Blacks because of their economic status would not have equal access to abortion as would White woman. While I cannot deny that there is a racist argument by people who are afraid of dark skinned people and what they are percieved to represent. There is an overall picture needing to be addressed and questions answered. Why are taxes so high, why is housing priced out of the range of most workers, and why can't we manage our planetary resources efficiently.
Governments simply do not do the job that they were designed to do. Governments are themselves inefficient pools of human corruption. The abortion debate need not be a debate at all if humans themselves were responsible, and woman were given the one fundamental right that Governments are determined to rob us of, the right of ownership of our own bodies and souls.

I am no apologist for the Liberal Government. Nevertheless it is important to recognise that the government has not given Mrs Vale any support. I don't think Peter Costello is connected at all with Mrs Vale's comments.

Mrs Jackie Kelly (Lib): "I think Danna's on her own on that one"

According to the SMH: "Mr Howard issued a thinly-veiled warning to Mrs Vale at Tuesday morning's meeting of government MPs, asking members "to use measured statements" in the RU486 debate.

Soon after Mrs Vale did apologise, saying: "Muslim Australians place a high value on their children and, like many other faith communities, see that the core issue is the right to life of the unborn child; and, indeed, that sexual conduct carries with it a responsibility. I also note that the Muslim community of Australia continues to oppose abortion. I strongly share this belief."

Then: "I use this opportunity to call for Australia to return to the core values of our forebears, who, unafraid of the hard road and the harsher life, made this country, this Australia, the great nation that it has become. Then, together with all of the various faith communities in our land, we can face our future in understanding and mutual respect. I do hope that this clarifies in some way what I was trying to say in a very clumsy way in a live interview the other day, for I deeply regret any offence that might have been taken by members of the Australian Muslim community."

http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/reps/dailys/dr150206.pdf (pages 29-30)

It is likely this article was written before the apology was given.

I completely agree with the objective of the article, namely to spell out that we are all Australians subject to equal respect, that racism is unacceptable and that Mrs Vale's comments during that interview were unacceptable.

All very well, but has Howard actually come out and publicly and unequivocally condemned Vale's comments? I think not.

More likely he has done the minimum, and kept up his record of "dog whistling" to the racist elements of Australia. A bit like "never condemn people for being proud of the Australian flag", even if they are wearing it whilst kicking in the head of another human being.

It is very sad to see that educated politician like Dana Vale will try to use the tictic of creating public sentiment used by poorly educated group like Al-qaeda. Lucky that she apologised. But that already left a scar. Families have the right to decide the way they want to live and professionals are the right group to help them. Why woman wants to abort, is a very complicated debate. If government want to increase birth rate, then go easy on people. This is Australia, not United States. Australian lifestyle should be based on Austrlian values. Don't just rise tax as a solution for everything. Let family be able to live on single income. Otherwise, it becomes far to difficult for families to raise a children, irrespective to their religion. Of course, this is just part of the whole picture and I am not an expert on everything and not prepared comment further.

Taya offers an argumentative opinion not very well researched of factual.

Dana Vale has a very point on at least two fronts:

1. Why is the abortion rate so high in an afluent society like australia (2 out of 5 births) voluntarely terminated? is it mere inconvenience, selfishness, greed,...?

I think morally speaking our right to kill a future person should be dramatically reduced to say 1 in 100 - reserved for very special cases like health or "some "rape victims (not all).

We have many ways of contraception - don't they all work?

2. Muslim women have a different religious and social outlook on procreation than most Australians.

Many are on welfare - so health care cost is drastically reduced. Most don't drive and live close to all amenities.

Families and extended families usually live close by or even together. Ideal for child minding and general support.

So having half a dozen kids is not much of a problem and a definite plus for beefing up the muslim population to critical mass...

Here’s another one misusing “racism” to attack a silly woman who made a silly comment. Danna Vale even found it necessary to say in parliament that she wasn’t racist nor had she ever been racist.

By all means, criticise Vale for putting her foot in her mouth, but at least have the common sense to know that she was making derogatory comments about a RELIGION, not a RACE.

And, Ms. Fabajanic, staring at women wearing hijabs or the full Islamic gear does not constitute racism either.

Also, the Liberal Party has, in fact, distanced itself from Vale’s uncalled for, incorrect and ignorant comments.

Anyone who needs to jump on the race/Muslim bandwagon for the remarks of one public figure has very little to think about, and needs to bone up on the English language and terminolgoy.

Unlike some of the fringe lunatics that congregate on these forums for want of finding gainful employment, Danna Vale has apologised. She is a good decent woman who has put her Christian values into practise. I doubt the armchair Nazis here will follow her example.

Lebanese women had consistently higher fertility at all ages. The average number of live births was 2.61 for the Vietnamese, 2.05 for the Turkish, and 3.83 for the Lebanese.

Within the Australian female resident population who were born overseas and aged 15-49 years in 2000, there was considerable variation in fertility of women from different country of birth groups.

2001
http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/ABS@.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/2d922684fbfcc802ca256c8c007c74b6!OpenDocument
Women born in Lebanon living in Australia had the highest TFR of 3.5 babies per woman. The next highest TFRs were for women born in Cambodia (2.6), Turkey (2.5) and Egypt (2.3).

For non Lebanese, mainstream Australians it is about 1.8 at best...

"WE" ARE DYING OUT and we just don't know it yet.

do the math and then crucify Dana Vale.

If one segment of the population is growing at 3 times the rate of most others.. the inevitable result is to be 'OVERUN'.

Dana Vales reference to "Muslims" and the obvious hand wringing emotiveness should be interpreted in the light of NOT political correctness but the harsh reality of:

-911
-Madrid Bombing
-London Bombing
-Recent Terror(Muslim) arrests involving an alleged plot to assassinate the PM and his family.
-Cronulla revenge attacks
-Rise of middle eastern crime (much of this Muslim.. ref Tim Priest)
-VIOLENCE related to hurt religious sensibilities over some little drawings.

All of which come from...'which' segment of the world population?

Call this what you like.. I call it 'facts'.

Islam as a faith is not compatable with Australian cultural and religious and legal values, because it relies on the concept of Sharia Law.

The Quran itself legalizes the keeping of captive slave girls and no amount of denial can erase this from the 'noble' Q.

The differing views between schools of Islamic jurisprudence on many issues demonstrates that if we end up with those following the 'harsher' school, we will have them advocating death for apostacy and many other things to be added to our penal code, or, that Sharia be recognized.

Sorry.. Dana was right, she just lacks a party which is prepared to say what needs to be said.

Taya Fabijanic “If we are to encourage Australian mothers to have more children, we need to stop hindrances to childbirth rates. That includes another abortion drug.”

And herein lies the lie.

This statement is a deception.

“Another abortion drug” does not hinder childbirth rates, unless one looks at women in the same manner a farmer looks at his cattle as “breeding stock”.

Encouraging mothers to have more children is a bit like encouraging everyone to wear a seat belt. However, I doubt any politician would suggest significant fines and demerit points for those who ignore the encouragement.

Whilst we live in a democracy, how many children any woman bears through pregnancy to join our populus is an entirely private matter. Deciding whether to choose abortion or not, is just another private matter.

This debate has been marred by a lot of people bemoaning the high incidence of abortion. However, since every abortion is a single and separate and individual decision, that there is a lot of them makes no difference. It is just a lot of different people deciding for themselves, what they want and what they do not want.
Forcing women to endure pregnancies against their own will would be a draconian policy of interference with sovereign rights and akin to the worst excesses of a despotic state. Whilst encouragement is one thing, deliberate obstruction designed to impose a particular social policy is grossly offensive to anyone who believes in the democratic processes through which we are “governed”.

As for Dana Vale, I guess she could qualify as the “token troll” on the government benches.

The thing which Vale ignores (or is too dumb to get her head around) is, over the coming years, the first generation devout “Muslims” within our population will produce children who will likely follow the children of devout “Christians” and forego the excesses of fundamentalism and adopt more secular lives.

They will also assimilate with Christians and in so doing feel even less need to cling to the fundamental rubbish which the Muslim religious zealots spew.

Ms Fabijanic is a fugitive from reality, and if she is furthermore disingenuous about the facts, she is also, "criminally" a fugitive from the TRUTH. The high costs in those sectors of goods and services that she mentions, have been prevalent for many many years now, but these have not prevented Muslim families from having 8 to 10 children. One only has to go to North Melbourne, Flemington, Carlton, not to mention other suburbs, to see this glaring REALITY. The fact is, that since most Muslim married women are voluntarily unemployed, child-bearing, beyond religious precepts, is also a source of income for most families, especially under the generous payments of the government. Go to their government- housed abodes and you will see them furnished with expensive TV sets, and furniture, and driving second-hand cars valued at least between 8,000 to 10,000 dollars. Also, many members of their families go for holidays to their own countries. One can only ask, being unemployed, where do they get the money from to indulge in these rather expensive tastes?

Moreover, Taya illustrates in a most clear way, that if one was to scratch the back of a Western educated Muslim, all the troglodyte ideas of their rigid religious upbringing will come up in the guise of "reasonable" argument. An example of the latter is, that if any one made a comment about REALITY, like Dana Vale did about the incontrovertible statistical evidence of the high birth-rates of Muslim families, Taya would label such a comment as being 100 per cent RACIST. Such a response pellucidly shows, that it's an illusion to expect that one could have an objective and reasonable discussion, even with an educated Muslim.

All should read Mark Steyn's seminal article titled, "Saluting Dana Vale", in todays Melbourne Age.

Blog NEMESIS: http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.com

The Australian Bureau fo statistcis website, publication 1301.1 (public info ww.abs.gov.au)

"the most common religious affiliation of immigrants is Christianity, affiliates of other religions are more highly represented among recent immigrants than in the total population. Between 1996 and 2001, there were just over half a million new arrivals to Australia. Of these, 9% were affiliated to Islam, 9% to Buddhism, 5% to Hinduism and 1% to Judaism"

From 96 to 2001 growth were as follows:

Buddism: 79.1%
Hinduism: 41.9%
Islam 40.2%
No Religion 36.3%

So Australia is likely to become Buddist or Hindu first.

Boaz,

Most Egyptians in Australia are Christian Orthodox.
Will be good to know how Orthodox birth rates compare to secular (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). But I don't think its easy stats to find.

F.H. hope you didn't feel personally attacked by my post.. not meant at all. As u realize this is a forum for 'robust' discussion and most of us will not pull punches just to avoid 'offending' :)

I note your statistics about the growth of various religions.

Some observations:

1/ Buddhism is benign... although it has had its 'moments' where it sees advantage in cozying up to authority, and has been transformed from a non religious philosophy into a 'religion' where the buddah is worshipped and monasteries and power heirachies are established, from the words of a prominent Buddhist on ABC last night, non of these things were intended by the Buddha himself.

2/ Hinduism.. I highly doubt that this would make much head way in non Indian segments of the population. They prefer the Hari Krishnas :) I think even that is kinda dated now. Muslims would have more to worry about from Hindues than Christians.

3/ RADICALS DRIVE THE AGENDA.. this is 'shout' mode to emphasise what has become a 'mantra' of mine. I've never tarred "All" Muslims with an 'evil' brush to my knowledge, my point has always been that if they were in a majority, the radicals and extremists would treat Christians like dirt, as is happening in places like Pakistan, Iraq and Iran. They are using any old excuse (even a Jewish connected publication/cartoonist) to blame Christians and 'The West' and to trample on anything from there.

Islam being such a political religion and way of life, based on the idea of an Islamic state, this is a danger we ignore at our peril.

'Dark forces' are clearly using the cartoon issue to promote a war, which I believe has already begun even without that issue.

Did you hear Abu Hamza's words about 'Karirs' ? "If u meet one in Islamic land.. just kill him or take him to the market and SELL him."
His group FORCEably took control of a mosque there.(UK)

Please note that I referred to birth rates among 'Lebanese' which includes Christian and Muslim.

I'm sorry, I've made a mistake. Mark Steyn's article, "Salute Danna Vale", is in todays The Australian, not in the Melbourne Age.

Taya Fabijanic is a freelance journalist. She recently completed a Masters paper on the media representation of nation building in Afghanistan.

Taya's CV is rather interesting. She says she is a journalist and makes a few statements that seem to contradict that statement.
If a person responds to the call of a muezzin that person is a muslim. As the muslims file into the mosque they might look about and see black muslims, white muslims, Russian muslims, Pakistani muslims, Jordanian muslims and other disparate groups of muslims. Most ambulatory muslims will prostrate themselves during worship. At this point a white muslim might like to check to see that black muslims or Iraqi muslims are likewise prostrating themselves. During a very special time of the year many muslims will take part in a pilgrimage to Mecca. Those taking part are Asian, Pakistani, Indian, Jordanian, Australian, black people, white people, and all sorts of muslims. Muslims of various groups are adherents of a religion known as Islam. Islam is open to all races.

Taya, you like a lot of journalists like to use the word racist to confect a story about muslims because of its emotional value. To remove all confusion Taya, Islam is a religion and all may participate. Islam is open to all races and indeed has people of different races who are adherents.

This topic has also drawn comments from some suggesting that the government should relieve the tax burden so that we may have larger families. Don't forget that several nations are now mendicant on the Australian taxpayer. These nations are likely to remain eleemosynary for many years to come. In a way Australian taxpayers are subsidising the philoprogenitive habits of our neighbours to the north.

What unbelievably unconvincing arguments we see presented by Coach and BOAZ_David, Themistocles.

Firstly, Mrs Vale has clarified that she shares with the Muslim community their opposition to abortion and support of family values.

Coach is wrong when he says Muslim women have different attitudes to
sex than other Australian women. Certainly, Mrs Vale speaks about the shared view on children across most faiths. Nor is it true that Muslim women are over-represented in welfare categories, which includes senior citizens, single-women and those searching for work.

BOAZ_David shows he has no concept of the most significant or deadly atrocities of any past period. His list is plain dumb. The "Cronulla Revenge Attack" stands out ridiculously, begging the question revenge from what. His inclusion of an alleged incident is bizarre and prejudicial to our courts. He calls it facts. I'll call it sick.

His statistics are farcical - a complete failure. Lebanese-Australians are majority Christian. So are a large number of Egyptian-born migrants. Cambodia is mostly Buddhist! Have a look at the source document and observe its clumsy manipulation

Where he says "'WE' ARE DYING OUT", he must only be referring to those who have Anti-Australian values - people who support or excuse racism and promote intolerance. Yes David, they are dying out.

As silly as the BOAZ post was, we observe jealous bigotry from Themistocles. He takes the myth about unmarried women living the high life and applies it to Muslim women without reason, without sense, without justification. Just how expensive can a TV set be these days? This is a slur upon all hard-working Australians who pay taxes and a denigration of one-income families. For the vast majority of Australians, who are proudly tolerant and fair people, this is nothing more than an attack on traditional family values.

Themistocles uses capital letters for words like truth and reality, so it really underlines how offensive this post really is.

[I note that two more posts have since been added - Not even bothering with them.]

Irfan you're difficult man to work out.Your redeemed yourself with criticism of the Muslim lunatics who rioted over the cartoons calling for the destruction of the West,and now you are again seeing armchairs of Nazis.Actually I see no difference between the Nazis and these fundamentalists Muslims.
Religion lost me a long time ago.It is not based upon fact nor logic.People can witness the same event and give different accounts to what they have seen depending upon their own prejudices.How can religions get the facts right thousands of years after the event?

All religions must learn to take any so called absolute truths with a grain of salt.Irfan you are the only high profile Muslim in NSW that has a reasonable point of view.Where are the others?

I'm reading the comments that came after mine and I'm curious that no one cared to look at the big picture. Governments across the world are all intent on controlling your lives, on dictating to you how you should live.The comments are bogged down in religious categories about birthrates, or slamming the author of the article about her information. Do you Aussies not get it? The world is now in the grip of forces that go beyond mere abortion. It's about freedom. Freedom to live, to prosper, to change the world in a positive way,. Free from religious, or governamental dogma. What will it take to convince people where we are headed. Does it take a computer chip implanted under your skin? What does it take for you to get your head out of the sand and at the big picture?

Thank you for your aticle.

coach

Why should only "some" ( you say " ... not all ... ") female victims of rape be allowed to abort - and others not?

Rape is a violent crime, a heinous crime, a hate crime, an evil crime. It is not about sex. It is about power and control over the victim.

I will be very interested in your reply to my question.

Thank you
Kay

I don't know why the proposition that Australia may abort itself out of existence raises such controversy. Other cultures have no trouble discussing it at all. Consider the following piece by Spengler in the Asia Times on what is happening in europe:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/front_page/ED08Aa01.html

I think the problem is that humans are only conditioned to respond to sudden change. Demographic change is usually to slow to be noticed.

Nice one BOAZ, couldnt have said it better myself.

Islam is a parasitic religion by nature and as such its followers will follow suit. It rides the back of other cultures and slowly but surely strangles them through the death of a thousand cuts.

Muslim women dont do abortion they dont do work and they dont contribute one ayota to the common good. What they do is breed and take advantage of the generous social security system. And why wouldnt they? Being an incubator for Allah is preferable to being raped or cast from the community.

Dana Vale has hit the nail on the head and just saying whats on the tip of everyones tongue.

And as for staring at a muslim in a burqha well what do you expect if I walked down the street in a pointy hat with rabbit ears wouldnt you stare. Its bizzare and should be banned.
Listen up you left wing morons, this our bloody country yeh thats right Anglo, the rest of you Johnny come lateleys can tow the friggin line or piss off. And the white do gooder civil libertarians with the far off glaze in your eyes are deluded at best and worst traitors to your own people history is not going to thank you.

[Deleted for general offensiveness.]

COP THAT....

Mohammed was a child defiler and hater of blacks originally ,(read "The Prophet",by Alberto Rivera or Chic Publications )until white muslims could see the potential of using the black masses to slaughter, rape and take over nations by sheer numbers ,these poor ,illiterates egged on by a promise of sex unstoppable in the Allah heaven where 70 virgins are waiting to get raped for ever.

Islams plan was ,and is to take over every Western nation for Mohammed and Allah by lies,torture,stealth,terror (of course) train up kids to hate all westerners(see them daily on TV)bleed the west of finances any way possible (Centrelink)and go the way of the anti christ system now being formed worldwide by stirring up hatred towards all religions and replacing it with their own brand of religion .

Read Revelations in Bible ,it's all there, including s/feminists idea of a mark(666) under the skin to control all.
Dana Vale has exposed the whole thing by what she said,I guess she is a Chrsitian ,going by the uproar ,just as Tony Abbott is too and myself included .
Not only are muslims hated ,but us Christians are too,just try to get a fair say in the media and you are censored,maligned,mocked and ridiculed , by the secular do -gooders and Greenies ,etc.

The media always make you (Christians )and emphasise"FUNDAMENTALISTS", are at the root of all the trouble while media can hide behing their autonomy and cunningness to manipulate the masses .

I know what I am on about. I not only get my info from books and history but Bible is the only TRUTH left to go by. Read The late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey,Final Notice by Barry Smith and Beyond 2000 AD also by Hal.The muslim plot is in all.

Yes, dobbadan, you credulous berk. It's all in Lindsay et al's books. And so is the rapture. And the penultimate dispensation, a theory largely based on the fraudulent Scofield Reference Bible. These deranged texts promote any means possible of bringing about Armageddon. Their authors are either on to a nice little earner, or actively hoping, indeed praying for nuclear annihilation. This doesn't strike me as a very good idea. And if such a person tried to engineer the ultimate in megadeaths, would his god think he's someone worthy of heaven? Just a thought.

scotty.
As an old leftie, I would have to agree with you on all except "bagging us old lefties" apparently you don't really understand what a leftie stands for. However I do think the Muslim birth rate should be kept a close eye on, the thing that concerns me is that our fearless leader made a speech during the 2004 federal election, "We shall decide who come, and the circumstances under which they come" so if my logic is correct, he has allowed them to come.
If so why doesn't he send them back? Australia does not need a collection of religious fanatics, of any religion, especially fanatics as violent as the Muslim faith. For more claeification refer both David Boaz, and Col Rouge first posts.

It is a sad fact that many on this board remain willfully blind to the demographic changes going on in Europe. By arguing against observed trends overseas (Yes, europe will either collapse or become muslim dominated by 2050) and sticking their heads in the sand, they invite Australia to continue down the same road. Australia may only be just starting down that road, but it is definitely the same road.

Many here also ignore the marked difference between culture, nationality and religion, and also the differences between religions. Islam is a very political religion, which aims to get sharia law implemented where ever it can (Once again, look to europe to see this trend).

Ms Vale's comments were accurate, but certainly not politically correct.

I believe the true people of Briton should rise up and push the foreign scum into the sea. Bloody Anglo Saxons scum.

I’m continually amazed at the level of ignorant racism displayed by some posters on the board.

Boaz,

Its a little arrogant to judge whether Hinduism or Buddism will survive in Australia. I was just pointing at stats that Buddism is the fastest growing religion in Australia even though its migration intake is a minimum.

As for your comments 'radicals drive the agenda', can you explain why people like Abu Hamza, Ayman Zawahery, etc...have prison sentences against them in many Muslim countries yet they are allowed to preach in the UK and the US?

The answer is simple, Muslims prosecuted them and don't want them.
I think Abu Hamza (similar to Omar A/ Rahman) are playing the boogyman role. Muslims kicked them out a decade ago.

One last thing, all radicals are bad news to Australia. Radical Christianity brought Hitler in a democratic regime. Just remember that.

Peace,

Aboriginal peoples currently have the highest reproduction rate of Australian social groups.

In a population of roughly 20.7 million people, around 450,000 identify as Aboriginal and around 200,000 identify as Muslim. Both are obviously minority groups, but Muslims share the average Australian life expectancy, while an Aboriginal woman can expect to see the ripe old age of 60 and an Aboriginal man something less than that. Aboriginal babies are more likely to have low birth weights and consequent health and education problems if they do survive.

Maybe those so horrified at the thought of big Muslim families and the rest of us aborting ourselves out of existence could consider supporting the Aboriginal population's bid to compensate for the loss of all those aborted babies. Such support would also lay to rest accusations of racism.

Kay,

I agree totally with you that rape is all you describe it to be and more. Rape is definitely one the lowest forms of human behaviour...(not exclusive to females either I might add)

I cannot begin to imagine the trauma that the victim must endure for the rest of their earthly life, to say that I could would be extremely offensive…

I strongly agree also with your statement: “It is not about sex. It is about power and control over the victim.”

Maybe I should have explained myself before . In retrospect I admit to have been a bit hasty posting.

I was only speaking moralistically. It seems to me that abortion has become in most cases an expedient almost knee-jerk solution to unwanted pregnancies.

The point I was trying to make is that killing an unborn ‘would-be person’ is also a hideous crime and must be taken into much greater consideration.

As difficult as it is to find oneself in this predicament, the “other” victim is the unborn. To punish a new life for a crime they had no control upon is, in my opinion, a misdirected (revenge) crime at a hopeless babe.

We don’t go around executing or stoning people in our society, so why (I ask) should aborting a child be the automatic thing to do?

This is a horrendous subject to try to reason and wrestle with. Thanks for the challenge Kay.

I can only be the jury, because I’d hate to be the judge and impose my verdict on any shattered victim.

You may have watched “Foreign Correspondent” on abc Tuesday night, a very moving documentary on the Bosnian rape victims of war.

http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2006/s1564305.htm

Scotty says "Listen up you left wing morons, this our bloody country yeh thats right Anglo, the rest of you Johnny come lateleys can tow the friggin line or piss off."

It would be great if Scotty would tow the line. This forum has rules and he has broken them.

Australia has an important law called the Racial Discrimination Act. Section 9.1 says: "It is unlawful for a person to do any act involving a distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of any human right or fundamental freedom in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."

That's the "friggin line".

To any person reading this forum from another country, be assured that this law is supported by the vast majority of Australians. If anything, we are embarrased how the existance of a tiny minority make this law necessary.

We are the 'fair go' country. We are an egalitarian country. We are a great country.

Sadly, the racial discrimination act is used by the Latimer's of this world to change Australian society against the will of the vast majority of Australians. I t gone from it's egalitarian origins to spite the cultural group that made Australia -Anglo - Australia.

Oppostion to absurd propositions is derided as 'racist' and 'xenophobic'' which means unlimited immigration, immigration from completely alien cultures and an increasingly divided Australia with fragmented communities frought with violence and ethnic tension. Thats multicultural for ya.

Back to the topic, don't Australian women have enough methods for birth control already?

Ms Fabijanic asks God to forbid abortion and Danna Vale from further utterences, If God is an Australian in the true sense He/She won't, it's not our style.

Child affordability has never come into it when a religion's dictates are that you shall go out and propagate to ensure the continuance and growth of the religion. Take a good look at the early Catholic church, particularly in the poorer countries.

If someone in a head to toe carrying a suitcase or looking rather fat sits beside me in a bus or train, I'm out the window. Why? Because I read the news and watch the T V. Whose fault is that?

If you can't believe an iman who do you ask or believe? The Local C of E priest?

As to Danna's comment being said to be " one-half Catholic and one-half Pauline Hanson " - sounds like a bit of religious bigotry and personal vilification mixed together.

Make what you will of the following excerpt from an article in The Weekend Australian Magazine, November 26-27, 2005 stating that

".......over the past 30 years the Continent's Muslim population has more than doubled, and by 2015 will have doubled again to 46 million. Many experts on Islamic studies predict a Muslim majority in Europe as early as 2070. Muslims will take over Europe numerically, probably around 2070, but will dominate the Continent long before that because they will form a majority of the under 25's."

"As Muslims become majorities it will be the natives who will have to integrate, says Alexis A;exiev of Washington's Centre for security Policy."

And it can't happen here? Convince me

Hey Coach

"As difficult as it is to find oneself in this predicament, the “other” victim is the unborn. To punish a new life for a crime they had no control upon is, in my opinion, a misdirected (revenge) crime at a hopeless babe."

Does this not seem very similar to sending someone (a new born child for instance) to hell for all eternity due to a crime (apple eating) committed by some distant ancestor..its called original sin isn't it? If it's good enough for God, don't see why it should be a problem for us..punish those fetuses!

Irfan

Who can we criticize? Once again you're making stupid, sarcastic and personally insulting comments about people who are saying their piece.

One of the reasons islamic coutries are such basket cases is because people are not allowed to ask questions.

Of course you or Fellow Human will point out some token example of the prophet's or islam's enlightenment that happened centuries ago, an example that's the exception rather than the norm. Of course you will ignore such things as the invasion of India etc.

I've had mossie women as workmates in 2 different countries, and known some as friends.

ALL of them attest to what a busted arse religion it is.

Also Irfan on your blog....
http://madhabirfy.blogspot.com
under......
Some Thoughts on Danish cartoons and Danish pastries

You are somewhat critical of the Danes, these are the people evacuated Jews to Sweden en masse during the nazi occupation and cared for their property during their absence. Do you think such people would invite mossies to live there then 'oppress' them without good reason?

You also say in 'Something Rotten in Denmark' by the 'islamophobe' Daniel Pipes http://www.danielpipes.org/article/450
reflects the hatred of some sectors of Danish society, just like this forum does, really? No it just sums you up, no one is allowed to criticise your backward religion and it's adherants, only you and the select few can, the rest are nazis.

Fellow Human, I've had interesting conversations with Egyptian Christians, no wonder they live over here in racist Australia, very grateful indeed.

For Scottie

mate.. I feel the need to urge you to consider the tone of your post.
I'm trying to make a point about social, cultural and political incompatability re Islam, but its not about the kinds of things you mentioned which have now been deleted. What you said kinda demonized them as people in a way that is not backed up by much other than anecdotal or hearsay stuff.
Let me assure you, suggesting they are dirty or whatever (all those things you said) is not neccessary to make the point about incompatability, which should be on verifiable grounds, and well reasoned.

I don't was to be seen attacking 'Muslims' in a personal sense. My target is "Islam" and the impact on our society due to its fundamental doctrinal and historical nature including the current violence.

Dobba.. Hal Lindsay says some interesting things, not all of which are easy to reconcile with the full story in Scripture. I believe the main message from such books is simply "Are we ready"?
Eschatology is probably not the strongest point of our secular friends here. Might be better to keep that kind of thing between the family :)

DAVID LATIMER. I appreciate your criticism, though I think you went a bit off the track claiming my post was 'dumb' :)
The stats were not 'my' stats they were from research and the ABS mate. And I already acknowledged that the birthrate applied to both Christian and Muslim Lebanese.

On the point of the 'revenge' attacks. I could also ask you 'why' did the action/rally take place which unfortunately was hijacked by some unruly elements who chased and bashed people of ME appearance. its not a chicken or egg thing, it has specific and identifiable historical roots.

David, You will probably get further with Scottie and others by a less hostile tone urself.

F.H. didn't mean to appear 'arrogant' :) but I am an 'only child', -goes with the territory, can you 4give me ?

Response to David_BOAZ:

To be fair, I said the list was dumb. I didn't take your 2nd post as a retraction. Scotty seems to think he is a law unto himself, so that was my reaction to him -- wouldn't call him a 'mate'. Davo has not only made a slur on Australian society by implying we tolerate racism (what a joke!), but wants to slur English (Anglo) society also.

Why on earth do you have the idea that mainstream-Islam supports religious persecution? A thought experiment. Aliens land on earth and they send their researchers out to examine the main religions. After the research is done they publish a list as follows:

Christianity: Nazis(12), Hutu militia(6), Klu Klux Klan(2), Pinochet regime(2), IRA(2), Mafia(1) Total:25 **
Islam: Bathists(7), Al Qaida(4), Jemaah Islamiyyah(2), Fatah(2), Hamas(2), Hezbollah(2) Total:19

They conclude that Christianity is the Earth's worst religion based upon recent violence tabulation using their advanced logic. They propose giving all christians a cerebral-reset (special alien technology). Earth appoints you as our ambassador. You say "No! look at Islam more carefully. Everyone knows how it encourages violence* " The figures are adjusted. Now they now propose giving all Muslims a cerebral-reset too.

Having made things worse, Earth appoints me as ambassador. I say "No! when people murder and torture, they usually may believe they are Christians or Muslims, but by their actions they reject their faith and no longer part of it." So the aliens propose to act against the terrorists and war criminals.

Happy ending!

* Please no replies on why 2 points or 5 points. It's just to illustrate the story. Obviously the points are irrelevant.
** This quote is fictional.
An interesting site: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

Mr Latimer

'Why on earth do you have the idea that mainstream-Islam supports religious persecution?'

Probably because Mr Boaz lived in Malaysia and saw it first hand.

I've lived and worked with mossies in four different countries and have many in depth conversations with them. They support it.

What's your personal experience?

'A thought experiment. Aliens land on earth and they send their researchers out to examine the main religions. After the research is done they publish a list as follows:'

Not the best example, if mossies possessed the technology, the brains, the organisation and no fear of retaliation or organised defence against them then they'd happily slaughter millions for the prophet. It's been shown throughout their history time and time again as they raped and plundered their way across the Middle East, Spain, and India.

Further reading, go to http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/

Irfan and Fellow Human will say that its not representative, taken out of context and so forth blah blah blah well what is?

To me representative was dealing with them on a daily basis.

Not a pretty sight

Australia is richer today than at any other time in it’s history and provides a salutory comparison to dysfunctional Muslim societies. If Muslims can not profit in Australian society, perhaps if they got off the dole and got a job then they might. Even the politically exquisite Sydney Morning Herald blurted out the truth that the Muslim suburb of Auburn had the highest rate of social welfare dependence in the nation.

As for racist stereotypes, why is it that every time another bunch of Muslims get convicted of gang raping infidel women that we hear that they have several brothers in their families? If a stereotype exists that Muslims have large families, then that stereotype appears to me to be accurate. Late last year, four “brothers” from a Pakistani Muslim family were convicted of gang rape, and one of the brothers appealed on the grounds that such behaviour towards sluttish women is normal in Pakistan. Personally, I don’t want any more people with those attitudes in my country.

As per usual, she screams about Muslim stereotypes but is not above doing a little stereotyping herself. She characterises Dana Vaile’s comments as “One part Catholic, one part Pauline Hanson. And it equals 100% racism.” Well guess what, baby? If you racially stereotype yourself, then you are just as racist as I am. If you pretend to hold the moral high ground, that’s great with me. It makes you a terrific target.

It seems funny that Tanya Fabijanic pretends to be outraged at the thought that Donna Vaile does not regard Muslims as “us”. Muslims are noted for their insistence upon social exclusion, as a matter of fact, it is part of their religion. If Muslims no longer feel this way, could they take up the issue with their Imams and the Prophet?

Most Australians do not wish to live in a stuffed up Muslim country, and we are concerned that your people are outbreeding our people. Unless you want to return to stoning people to death, women as chattels of men, crushing poverty and dictatorial governments, it should concern you too.

Some Stats:

AUSTRALIANS BY RELIGION

CHRISTIAN 68 per cent

NO RELIGION 15.5

DIDN'T ANSWER 9.8

OTHER/UNCLEAR 2.4

BUDDHIST 1.9

MUSLIM 1.5

HINDU 0.5

JEWS 0.4

SOURCE: CENSUS 2001

Now these stats do indicate that our egalitarian wide brown land is very much dominated by those who profess to be Christian - although I would be interested to know what percentage are active practising christians.

The other interesting fact is that Muslims are a whopping 1.5% of our population, that's about 300,000 compared to 20,000,000 Australians. Yeah, we're really in danger from being overun by Muslims - in the Year 40,000 maybe.

To judge from her comments, Dana Vale is very confused about many things and should be treated with care and sympathy. But there is only one of her and hopefully she hasn't done any breeding ;-)

David (Latimer)
again.. your critique is welcome.
I almost thought I was re-reading 'Chariots of the Gods' (aliens etc :)but you seem to be working more from well intended 'emotion' based on Aussie values of fair go etc, more than taking a sober look at Islam in the world context, and at the doctrinal/foundation level.

Imagine if you were a Christian in Bangledesh,Syria or Pakistan, today where 'blasphemy' laws are routinely trotted and used against you if you get too 'uppity' to keep you in your place, if not get you executed. This kind of thing occurs with monotonous regularity even for simple things like embarrassing or disagreeing with a Muslim.

The problem is the 'tone and fabric' of the 'Islamic' state. They actually have a concept of 'dhimmitude' -you should research this. Non Muslims, if people of the book, are subject to a list of prohibitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Umar

Note the discussion on historicity, but also that the degree of implementation was 'whim' based depending on the ruler of the day.

David.. please look at posts by Kactuz, and note the actual references to Islamic sources he has presented. You might get a better feel for this faith in so doing. Always bear in mind (as you have also seen clearly on recent newsbulletins) Mohammed is regarded as "our beLOVED' prophet". His example is the guide to understanding the Quran and Hadith. Sadly for us, his example is not without ugly blemish as Kactuz' posts will clearly show, and the experience of Christians in Muslim lands confirms.

Islam is political. The goal is an Islamic state- Always and without exception. We are in the 'Medina' stage here in Australia where the Muslims are 'weak and isolated' but things changed with the 'Meccan' invasion. Demographics, Conversions, Funding from rich Middle East countries (construction of opulent Mosques and the associated 'Wahabist' sting in the tail conditions) all contribute to the 'Meccan' goal.

I enjoy the interaction, and hope that you will search out more background info as time passes.
But most of all, that you will find Christ as Saviour.

Donna Vale, like Pauline Hansen, will be vilified and abused for holding the same views that the majority Australians have.
She has apologised so that will hopefully save her from the feral attacks that struck Pauline.
If you want to know how much regard Muslims hold us in, go to WWW Islamic Thinkers.
You will surely get enlightenment.

Irfan,
Just who are the fringe lunatics and armchair Nazis who should apologise, and for what. Should Mark Steyn also apologise for his article in the Australian.?
When are the Islamofascists going to apologise for their beat ups and gross distortions of reality.
Why should anyone take any notice of Islamacists when they beat up the cartoon affair, after it was published in an Egyptian paper.
Who apologised for the two girls in Indonesia who had their head chopped off by Islamcists.etc etc

When are the Islamacists going to recognise that their cult worshipping of someone who was an outright deviant, thug and murderer is disgusting.

When are the Islamacists going to submit their odd ball theology to open and rigorous scholarly analsyis.

Get my drift do you?

Some of the contributions to this debate do the writers no credit and have made for a disappointing read. I have come to expect rather better from those who generally contribute to this Forum and I would ask that at least some you mend your ways and do please try to engage in constructive argument. If you can't be constructive at least try to be witty and if you can't be witty then just read--don’t contribute. If you really feel that you need a rant then save some of your more asinine comments for talk back radio—as late in the evening as possible please.

So JB1 you think that Irfan should be let off the hook for having a general swipe at a supposed lunatic fringe and sundry Nazis but not elaborate.Indeed why should Danna Vale have to apologise and Mark Steyn not. Further doesnt it strike you as being rather odd, the immense disparity between what Vale and Steyn may have said, and what Islamicists have done. Why are there instant calls for apologies for perceived slights, but when there is major piece of violence by some Muslims group against someone or another, there is almost total silence.
Perhaps part of the problem is the fact that Islam does need to look more closely at itself, and its theology. If you cant hack these comments then you are the one who should just read.

bigmal

I don't have time to look back through the posts on this thread at the moment. It could be here - or in threads related to many other articles that Mr Irfan has written for OLO.

He regularly calls OLO posters who disagree with Islam as "armchair Nazis". He regularly intimates that regular OLO posters do not work or contribute to society. I doubt that he knows any of us on a personal level.

I am not an armchair Nazi. I am a solid and good fairing Australian who is not afraid to assert my opinions.

I am not abusive if another person does not hold the same belief systems as myself.

I am willing to change my mind if I am given sufficient evidence.

Islam has not provided me with sufficient factual evidence.

Cheers
Kay

JB1

Are you talking about Irfan or the 'armchair nazis' like me.

Go to Irfan's blog http://madhabirfy.blogspot.com and read through his posts.

On his blog he has criticised the lebanese, about whom he's probably right. For this he draws upon his own personal experience to make his conclusions, which is how many people do things and though not perfect, is quite valid. However when someone else, be it me, Mr Boaz, Redneck or Cronulla residents draw on their own personal experiences with mossies and draw negative conclusions then were nothing but a bunch of racists.

Response to David_BOAZ:

This is meant as a constructive criticism, but it could save some time if you think through potential rebuttals before posting. I feel like I'm shooting fish in a barrel.

My light-hearted story, was meant to illustrate the problem of guilt by association. In your post, you have replicated the plot of the story and to that extent, condemned yourself. As a believer, you must surely be aware that my imaginary aliens are a symbol for something else.

Regarding the Pact of Umar, if you want to suggest that 7th century Islamic rulers were not paragons of 21st century liberal democracy, feel free. But they could read, they had written laws and offered basic religious freedom. The pact predates the Magna Carta. If anything, the 7th century pact shows Islam as progressive.

I notice similarities on some points with modern practice. In France, conspicuous symbols are banned in the "public square" (a mistake). The USA had prohibition last century (also a mistake.) In Australia, we don't allow mosques to do the 'call to prayer' loudly (a sound idea (get it?))

Let's see what else you go on about:
opulent mosques <--> opulent cathedrals
conversions <--> conversions, colonialism
Wahabism <--> Puritanism

So amazing that you justify your own views based on what happens in Bangladesh, Syria or Pakistan. Are you next going to tell me to fear black people because of Uganda, Rwanda or Zimbabwe? No wrongdoing in any country or situation is ever likely to dent the steel of a principled person.

In the end, my Australian values, shared by my fellow Australians, upheld by our constitution and laws, consistent with the true values of the various faiths, will easily defeat and prevail over any racist, bigoted or otherwise silly values.

To all posters

A naive but sincere question: How many Islamic countries have been engaged in ethnic cleansing and how many Muslims have been engaged in ethnic cleansing?

Thanks
Kay

Ms. Fabijanic,

You wrote:

'Danna Vale's comment is one-half Catholic, one-half Pauline Hanson. And it equals 100 per cent racism. She used a flippant comment spoken by a religious figure to her own advantage: it is authentic because it is spoken by 'one of their own', and then turns it against 'them'.'

Why do you describe Vale's comments about Muslims as racist? I would suggest it is because to say 'religious bias' has less impact. 'Racist' is generally considered to be one of worst things you could call someone, at least in a Multicultural society. Why have you called someone a racist who said nothing at all about race?

Clearly you are trying to use a flippant comment spoken by a political figure to Your own advantage.

If someone insults Muslims, followers of a god they believe in called Allah, how is that racist?

If someone insults Islam, a religion, how is that racist?

How is that racist?

I want to know how many people who agreed with John Perkin's recent secular article are now on Vale's case when she speaks out against the very real demographic threat posed by the religion of islam? And how few of them really see their hypocrisy

Kalweb,
You asked for examples of ethnic cleansing by Muslims.
You will have no trouble in finding these answers in both your history books, and in observing daily reports.

You could begin by keeping an eye on what is published in:
http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

For history, the best seller by Robert Spence on the "Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" woudl be a good starting point.

You will quickly learn that the term dhimmitude means ethnic cleansing by subjugation, or death or conversion. There is no other way for non muslims to live adjacent to and be accepted by these people, when they are in control. This is a status that has never been repudiated by mainstream Islamicists, even in this country.

Note also that the raving lunatic currently in charge of Iran has said that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, and that one nuclear bomb should do it.
When it comes to ethcic cleansing, they have been doing it for 1500 years.

Bigmal,

'they have been doing it for 1500 years'!

So how come most Muslim countries still have non-Muslims population and their churches for the last 1500 years?
(Source world bank statistics and IMF website)

By the way, the 'dhimmi' is mainly used in wahhabi teachings. to quote it as 'all Muslims'reference' is misleading.

Response to Kalweb.

Bigmal has recommended to you dhimmiwatch (DW) which is a blog associated with Spence. So you are not getting two sources but one source.

One of the things I noticed is that DW criticises Muslims for being against Osama Bin Ladin. (see "Islamic truths"). Mansoor Ijaz wrote in the LA Times that "Muslim ideologues are hypocrites", praises "devout Muslim doctors", condemns Osama Bin Ladin as one of "Islam's mobsters" and condemns the rioting.

DW responds sarcastically and sadly in defence the mobsters. In DW's view, the mobsters and radicals are in the right, because it serves their bias. DW seems to enjoy fuelling religious acrimony, despite the consequences.

Don’t fall into this web.

If you want a neutral perspective look up wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

David Latimer:

Please could you provide a link to the article on dhimmiwatch that you speak of.

David Latimer

Kalweb asked the question about ethnic cleansing in regard to Muslims only. I responded to that question.
Your wikipedia reference looks at ALL ethnic cleansing including that by Muslims.
My pointed reference to Dhimmi Watch was directed at the question raised, as was the book by Robert Spence. The book by Spence was by its nature a very different document than a sequentially oriented weblog of inputs from aorund the world.
The book by the way has been extremely well researched and written, and it is no wonder that it is a best seller. It remains a valuable read along with many others for those who want to learn more.

Response to Mr P P:
The link was provided by bigmal on Monday, 20 February 2006 7:54:55 AM and I had a scan through the first page.

Response to bigmal:
There are plenty of reviews of that book which testify to its bias. If kalweb genuinely wants to know about ethnic cleansing then wikipedia provides a neutral overview

David, I agree with the use of a source which looks at the whole topic rather than just focussing on one "groups" involvement. That tends to put things in a better perspective.

Kay (kalweb) is in my view a very genuine person. From my interactions with her I think that she is very genuine in her efforts to treat issues fairly and to understand the issues. Not the type to use loaded questions, rather someone who genuinely wants to understand.

Cheers
R0bert

bigmal and David Latimer

Thank your for your references. I have started reading.

RObert - hi mate - thanks for your support.

Cheers all
Kay

A few people have pointed out the misuse of the term 'racist' in my article.

I would just to clear up why I used the word racist to describe Danna Vale's comment.

To me, 'racist' is a very strong term. And while I acknowledge the diversity of races that practice Islam, I think those who are against Islam treat it more as a race than a religion.

Why? Because they attribute racial stereotypes to a religious belief. Mrs Vale used the stereotype of Muslims a) having large families and b) having large families to overpopulate a region. Other stereoptypes are Muslim people being dark-skinned, Arabic, controlling submissive women, uncontrollably violent etc ...

These characteristics are not usually denoted to people of a religious belief.

The understanding of a religion is being stopped by the attribution of racial characteristics.

If a politician, or a journalist for that matter, keeps the stereotyping going than you can't call them a 'bigot', 'racially intolerant' or 'prejudiced'. These words don't capture the kind of strategy the stereotyping is trying to achieve, i.e. subvert a comprehensive ideology into a set of 'racial' characteristics.

So, I would call them a 'racist'. And even though my use of the word was not strictly correct, I was trying to point to the strategy Mrs Vale is using.

the false religion of islam which was created to replace Jesus Christ's Way, it is demonic and cruel ,you never see Muslim comedians,smiling happy people, or anyone giving anything except raging fist shaking mad men ,whether it be inventions,science,filmstars, sports ,humanitarians ,etc. This religion was birthed hunderds of years after Christianity..As Jesus Christ said, "Iam the WAY,the TRUTH and the LIfe ,no one can come to the Father except through ME".He is the Son of God it can't be changed and that is it.

I have the February 2006 issue of Voice of the Martyr's Magazine here go to www.persecution.com.au I have this VOM magazine for many years you can see the tortuerd bodies of Christians who are electrocuted,tortured ,burnt,imprisoned,beaten,starved ,slavery,acid thrown in eyes ,parents killing their own kids all for becoming Christians.
In nations like Mauritania,Maldives,Algeria,Libya,Egypt,Indonesia ,Sudan (where the Muslims rape women ,then kill them after 20 muslims have done them over, Saudi Arabia (kill and cut off arms )Iraq,Iran,Pakistan,Malaysia ,Turkey,Nigeria,Ethiopia,Afghanistan,Tajikistan,Turkmenistan,Uzbekistan,Phillipines,(just shot 6 Christians last week) Lebanon,Gaza strip,Nepal,all have the same spirit so where is the love,compassion and care with Islam?
Kids ,and girls are raped and macheted to death in Indonesia alone 8,000 Christians kiled and maimed in 9 years .
Go also to www. open doors .com.au.

OPEN your blinded eyes and be honest .Islam is evil & uncaring and will lie to get their own religion accepted or legislated for Australia. Danna Vale Congratulations .

David Latimer:

You seem to be backing away from your claims a bit with the “I just skimmed through the first page” routine. No wonder. After reading the article by someone named Rebecca that you refer to, the following inconsistencies in your post seem worthy of mention.

"DW responds sarcastically and sadly in defence the mobsters. "

Perhaps the tone of the article is sarcastic, but to suggest that it is in defence of the mobsters is false, nowhere in the article is this born out. You are incorrect.

"In DW’s view, the mobsters and radicals are in the right,"

Again this is either a lack of comprehension or pure fabrication on your behalf. This point is made nowhere in the article. You should really make the effort to rectify the errors you have made.

“because it serves their bias.”

Whose bias is that then? The Islamic fanatics or jihadwatch? You are unclear on this point.

I detect a distinct bias in your approach however. Perhaps you would care to invent some extra supporting reasoning to back up your position?

"DW seems to enjoy fuelling religious acrimony, despite the consequences."

Much better if they just played nice and kept quiet eh?

“Don’t fall into this web.”

What?

Whilst Danna Vale’s bigotry was condemned by most, including several of her Parliamentary colleagues, no-one commented on the mathematics of her absurd claim - you don't need to be a statistician to see that the numbers simply don’t stand-up.

Australia’s current population is approximately 20.5 million, of which less than 310,000 are Muslim.

If half that number are women, who each produce four children, there will be 62O,OOO children. If all these children are female & they also produce four children each, there would be nearly 2.5 million more. Assuming that no Muslim woman in the 3rd generation gives birth before turning 18, then the total number of children produced over 50 years would be 3.1 million.

Let's also assume that no Australian Muslims perish over the next 50 years. Also, given that the immigration intake & population mix remains constant, then the next 50 years will see less than 116,000 new Muslims arrive in Australia.

On this basis the estimated total of Australian Muslim population will become roughly 3,500,000 by 2056.

The annual birth rate in Australia is almost 250,000. Assuming that 155,000 of those are Muslim born, non-Muslim births would be around 95,000 annually.

Aassuming that the non-Muslim birth rate only applies for 8 years out of the next 50 years, then only 760,000 non-Muslim children will be born in that period. Then, to be ultra-conservative, let’s assume that the annual death rate of 135,000 is ALL Non-Muslim & remains constant for 50 years. Total deaths of Non-Muslim people would be nearly 7 million.

With non-Muslim arrivals running at 151,690 people per year, there will be 7,584,500 new citizens added over 50 years.

So, in 50 Years time it would seem that Australia’s total population will be about 25 million (in-line with the ABS projection for 2050), of whom 14% will be members of the Muslim minority group.

Unless Danna is expecting the Australian population to undergo a wholesale religious conversion over the next 50 years 14% hardly constitutes a " Muslim Nation."

As they'd say in America " Do the math, Danna, do the math ".

Tanya

i strongly dislike all races of islamists.

To Mr JR

If Muslim's will "only" constitute 14% of the Australian population in the next fifty years, then I would ay that we have a big problem. Muslims in France account for about 7-8% of the population yet they nmake up 50% of the prison population.

Already in Sydney, we are seeing the creation of Muslim only enclaves like Canturbury, Bankstown and Campsie where Australians fear to tread. The current head of the Human Rights Organisation, Chris Sidoti, once called the NSW Police Force an "occupying army" in Muslim areas, and he got that right. It is getting so that we might as well haul down the Australian flag already in those suburbs and allow Muslims to raise the Green Crescent of Islam. This process is already well underway in France.

It is not just Australian residents fleeing those suburbs. The NSW Education Department can not find teachers brave enough to teach in the schools in those areas. Violent attacks and threats of violence towards teachers (especialy female teachers) have become so endemic that even casual teachers are refusing to work in some notorious schools.

Already the residents of one Sydney suburb have began the first white race riot to underline the totally unacceptable behaviour of young men who follow the Muslim way of life. If we do not stop importing people who apparently despise education and women, and who are prone to violent behaviour, then we should start building more prisons now before the lack of space become critical.

JR you are missing some important points about social change.

-Communists only ever felt they needed TEN percent to take a country.
-10% in key electorates is enough to change the outcome in an election, and the associated 'deals' which will further benefit a particular group.
-The violence we have seen over recent weeks is a litmus test for how things 'could' be if such a group took exception to the truth being told even in a forum like this.
-Islam ALWAYS repeat ALWAYS has the goal of an Islamic "State".
-Dutch and French and Danish experience all confirms that the more 'Muslims' of a moderate nature the more RADICALS of a violent nature. The death threats and murders are in waiting.

-One of our posters here (Verdant) lives in Bankstown, and received violent threats in his mail box from Muslims telling him to 'get out' of 'their' turf. This happens in the UK with migrants in general who want to cluster together, intimidating 'white' people so they will either rent or sell properties to 'them'.

-The more Muslims in an area, the greater the push to change the social fabric, allow screaming calls to prayer from mosques via PA systems (Hamtramck near Detroit)
-Muslim mayors feel they can deprive non Muslims of ham sandwiches for the sake of a 13% muslim constitutency.(Hume Shire Melbourne)

So, am I "prejudiced" ? u better believe it... I'm prejudiced against ANTI "ME & my MOB" PREJUDICE :)

Now, getting to the reason I came to post this morning:

A Muslim doctor who was a former member of Al Qaeda was interviewed on Fox news this morning about how/why he left that group and changed his ideas.

I was stunned as I heard him relate these words:

"What does it profit a man, if he gains the whole world, but loses his own soul"

From who are these words ? Yes.. the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the question we all must answer- Muslims, Christians,Atheists, Agnostics

Thanks dobbaban, redneck and BD,

JR’s good intentions fail to estimate the real menace of islam.

As any good doctor will tell you the best level of any malignant cancerous cells is 0%.

He also did not take into account “Da’wa” or calling and invitation actively directed at non-Christians to join islam by conversion (or reversion as muslims believe).

There are enough gullible and impressionable young people – especially females – who will fall for the lure of a “better way” only to bitterly regret it later on.

Muslim intermarriage to (nominal) Christian girls is highly encouraged in islam and practiced in secular countries. The children are automatically muslims.

So if those factors are taken into the calculation – JR’s figures will fluctuate a little...

Islam is a lethal beast that needs to be kept on a chain leash.

Haven’t you seen and heard enough?

Australia could be one of the last bastions of a free society if we ALL wake up and be vigilant to the reality of the threat at hand.

Danna Vale, Bronwyn Bishop, and all the other unsung heroes: Australia salutes you. You don’t have to apologise (to the PC multicultural madness) for stating the obvious facts.

We need more politicians to stand up for what they have been voted for – the common good…

Unlike race - religion and culture are not hereditary attributes.

This alone knocks a hole in the argument. Apart from that - extrapolating a current trend fifty years into the future is a fairly daft method of making predictions.

But getting back to the original point. I'm somewhat taken by a vision of Australians "rabbitting" away in bedrooms accross the land, working hard in order to spread their ideas and culture.

Firstly to Mr P P:
I don’t intend to discuss DW any further, for the obvious reason that the site promotes religious intolerance. They should be attacking violence, terrorism and extremism, not muslims who promote harmony. I don’t retract any one of my conclusions and they are clear, obvious, and convincing. I was not born yesterday.

Secondly to David BOAZ:
You are unknowingly diminishing Christianity by promoting this litany of fears. Jesus faced the intolerance of his own people, the power of the Roman Empire and death itself – promoting peace and forgiveness ‘til his last breath. In light of Matthew 25:40, why be surprised to find Jesus in a former Al Qaeda doctor?

Finally to the reader of this thread:
You may have just read a series of posts trying to justify their various prejudices and bigotries against muslims. History keeps repeating, just the names change, eh?

In Australia, we strongly believe in individual responsibility and tolerance. We deplore murder, rape, threats, bullying and rioting. Terrorist and criminals will be held to account, given a fair trial and if guilty sent to gaol. One’s religion has nothing to do any of these points. That’s the Australian way and we are very good at keeping religion out of these things, so that guilty people get what they deserve.

Keep the Australian way foremost in your mind. It’s a fantastic country and hopefully other countries will adopt our example. Muslim migrants are here to adopt the Australian way, which means they can practice Islam and still everyone gets along. The troublemakers discover they are in a very “tiny minority.”

Really Dave!

I used to work for the NPWS. In the parks that the mossies would congregate most namely Georges River and Kurnell. If there was no one manning the gate or patrolling then among the mossies there'd be 100% non compliance. The anglos asians greeks etc would pay about 90-95% of the time. I would often sit and watch as mossie car after mossie car would drive up to the ticket machine stop and drive off. And they drove nicer cars than most. As for pension card abuse I won't even get started.

When I asked a leb mossie poster 'Zefstar' why this was so he shifted the responsiblity to me.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3972#24782

Quote
and what i say to you is if you enforced your duties towards these people who 'never paid', i think the problem would have gone away
Unquote

I enforced day in day out to no avail.

Response to Carnifex:

I spoke to a NPWS officer about the situation you described, excluding the bit about 100% non-compliance because that's just nonsense (if you couldn't obtain rego details, you wouldn't be in a position to determine religion.)

This is what I learnt: NPWS officers only occasionally go about enforcing permits. When they do they go in pairs, connected via two-way to other officers. The police are a phone call away, with direct numbers in the various booths. NPWS officers use common-sense in assessing a situation and there is no reason for an officer to be intimidated.

Officers can issue a notice to pay, which gives the vehicle owner two weeks to pay the $7 fee or a penalty results. If the officer believes the vehicle has offended before, they can directly issue a penalty notice. In either case the fine is $68 and processed like any other parking fine.

Put simply, the law applies evenly to everyone. If someone breaks the law there is a penalty. The penalty applies the same to everyone.

Notice the officer said something about "common sense", which one can guess means don't provoke a riot over a $7 fee. (I just tell it as it was told to me - I'm never afraid to do that.) Why is that the case?

Because of all the exaggerated fears expressed in this thread and elsewhere from all sides. For every action, there is a reaction. That reaction can be non-racist, even-handed and appropriate. If so, the law is respected and Australia strengthened.

OR it can be what I have sadly read in some posts above -- racist/bigoted, provocative, disproportionate. That's when a $7 fee can turn very, very ugly.

Zefstar was being soft on you. I cannot imagine why a NPWS officer is counting "mossies" or otherwise acting unprofessionally, perhaps contrary to the Racial Discrimination Act. You had a legal responsibility to carry out your NPWS duties without considering the religion of those not paying.

That is also the law. The law applies to evenly to everyone. The law applies to you too.

Something to consider...

Face up to Islam
Archbishop Bernardini

His Excellency Bernardini, Archbishop of Smyrna (Izmir) in Turkey, presented his experience of Islam to the Synod of bishops held at Rome in October of 1999. Here are some of his remarks, which appeared in L’Osservatore Romano of November 17, 1999.

I have been living in Turkey for the past 42 years, a country that is 99.9% Muslim, and I have been the Archbishop of Izmir – Asia Minor – for the past 16 years. The theme of my intervention is therefore obvious: the problem of Islam in Europe today and in the future. I thank Bishop Pelatre, who already spoke about this theme in this prestigious assembly, dispensing me therefore of a long examination and relative interpretations.

My intervention is to present a humble petition to the Holy Father above all. In order to be brief and clear, I will first make reference to three cases which, due to their provenance, I believe to be true: see next post

1 – During an official meeting on Islamic-Christian dialogue, an authoritative Muslim person, speaking to the Christians participating, at one point said very calmly and assuredly: “Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you; thanks to our religious laws we will dominate you.”
This is to be believed because the “domination” has already begun with the “petro-dollars” used not to create work in the poor North African or Middle Eastern countries, but to build mosques and cultural centers in Christian countries with Islamic immigrants, including Rome, the center of Christianity. How can we fail to see in all this a clear programme of expansion and reconquest?

Taya when you are wrong – you are wrong, whatever your excuse for it…simple!

Redneck and others raise some serious considerations. This is not racism, it is reality for us and for those Islamics of ALL nationalities who do not wish to live with the terrorism and brutality of the ‘lunatic fringe’ who are creating more havoc around the world than any other group at present.

Many Islamics disapprove too, some are ambivalent and some afraid to speak out. When good ‘men’ do nothing, evil will prevail…learn the lessons of history.

The point made by redneck re: jail percentages in France can be translated around the world in varying degrees…can they all be innocent and misunderstood?

“Muslim migrants are here to adopt the Australian way, which means they can practice Islam and still everyone gets along. The troublemakers discover they are in a very “tiny minority.”” David Latimer

Sadly, David, that has been proven to be incorrect judging by the riots and statistical data here and world-wide.

Read carefully what Danna Vale and others have said, she was, in part offering a compliment to Islamics while then pointing out where their beliefs were not matched by their actions.

A fair go should mean truth ‘without fear or favour’…THAT is the Aussie way, not anything goes - just don’t upset the minorities.

Muslims worldwide are raging and raving about racism is causing the hatred and terror,burning,smashing,raping and fire bombing churches ,etc.

Take a good look at yourselves you Islamists,and admit what is going on was orchestrated months ago ,while they had plenty of flags ready to burn of all nations,probably from finacially wealthy Saudis.

Us Christians also could say it is racist ,as we also get persecuted and mocked by others including muslims for our faith and belief in Australia and we are Aussies . So stop your bleeting Muslims . Australian's just don't like or accept any religions ,only the religion of sport and idolatry of movie and sport stars and booze.

As a Christian for only 27 years of my decades on earth and a born, again Aussie Christian, (we) my family and I have had threats (death ) from homosexuals ,excreta thrown on our house ,car as well,eggs and abuse as people (Aussies ) past our house and harassment as well as Bibles we gave away (10) were burnt just around the corner,and shown to us later.
Relatives disowned us ,left us out cold and refused to invite or visit us ,.
You are not new at this non acceptance of religion because we suffered before you did.

We did not retaliate,the youth who did it years later became a Christian . Hallelujah! Jesus is Lord!

Meg1 says "Sadly, David, that has been proven to be incorrect judging by the riots and statistical data here and world-wide." She has not proven anything, nor can she. What a twisted example of "truth ‘without fear or favour’" as what Meg1 ironically goes on to say.

Lets examine Megs so-called truth: Firstly what riots here? Is she talking about the Maquarie Fields riots, the Cronulla riots, the Perth riots or anti-globalisation riots. Sorry, but not sure what riots Meg is talking about.

Oh! What was that? The riots elsewhere in the world? So what happens in Syria or Iraq must happen in Australia? This is why overseas "statistical data" is referred to (who knows what data exactly, but that's unsurprising). So by that logic, what happens in Africa must happen in Australia too. What happens in China must happen here too.

What idiocy! Africa has poverty, but we don't reject Africans. China and India have overpopulation, but we don't reject Chinese or Indians. Finland has cold weather, but we don't reject Finish people. Meg1 has failed the 'fair go' test. She has failed the 'truth without fear or favour' test. Quite typical of those who think discrimination can be somehow justified, dispite the horrors of history which Australians have wisely learnt from.

Australia deserves it status as a great country because we don't have the same problems found elsewhere in the world. People like Meg1 want to drop us down a few pegs.

David Latimer,

Pardon me... what kind of logic have you got here?

Of course Australia 'rejects' Africans, Chinese, Indians and perhaps even Finish, all the time. It's about controlled migration, preventing wrong people from getting in here. Your 'fair-go' is irrelevant.

There are more than 100 millions poverty-striken Africans, Chinese and Indians who'd like to come here tomorrow if they could. Do you believe Australia should swing it's doors wide open to them? If not, what kind of 'fair-go' are you on about?

On the other hand, if I have my way, I would not permit ANY intake of Muslim, irregardless of race. There is no lack of Islamic States where Muslims can go and fit right in.

Australia is a great country because we do not YET have the same problems found elsewhere in the world. Let's keep it that way !!

Most m/e nations are only deserts an inheritance from Ishmael they buy their water and buy their crops and buy their food and buy ,buy ,buy that don't and can't produce anything but trouble.

Now the Jews have produced huge amount of fruit ,grains,vegetables ,etc, from the Gaza areas enough to sell to the EU for years BUT Palestinians were given the Gaza strip and now they can't grow a thing.

Why? God rewards those who diligently seek HIM The Palestnians can't figure it out why nothing will grow for them.
They are under a well known curse as the bible saysJews are The Apple of God's Eye.
This whole thing is spiritual and only Christians and Jews have The Holy Spirit the umblical cord to God Almighty
Check it out no Jews ,no food.
What we need is love but no one wants to give it.

Does anyone know what love is?

If GZTan thinks that we have a racist immigration policy, then he couldn't be more wrong. People are permitted to immigrate to Australia according to their personal merit or situation alone. They may have skills, good health, education; perhaps a family already living here or they would like to marry an Australian (genuinely of course). There is also compassionate grounds and asylum ect...

Once again, I remind people the law of Australia could not be clearer. We do not discriminate against Africans, Chinese or Finish. We do not discriminate at all.

The quickest way to import the problems of the world would be to change the Australian way, which is fair and tolerant. GZTan says that Australia is a great country, and then wants to change it.

We've done pretty well without your help, thanks.

"Aborting Muslims from society" what a title sounds so "victimish".

Wasn't Vale worried we were aborting moderized secular Australian citizens out of Australian society.

David Latimer,
Grow up, we are free in modern civilasation to dislike religion and its effects. Deal with it or move to a facist country n be happier under your beloved thought police.

Part I
Dave, you"re out of your depth.

I spoke to a NPWS officer

What do you expect him to say Dave? For all he knew you could&'ve been a journalist from the ABC or the Herald. If he you told you the truth he'd get shat upon. Or perhaps he';s one of those useless head-office types that came out on busy days to 'assist'. We had one who wouldn't approach mossies to ask them to put their fires out on an extreme high fire day.

excluding the bit about 100% non-compliance (if you couldn't obtain rego details, you wouldn't be in a position to determine religion.)

Mossie cars had either a minature koran or Allah Akbar medallion hanging off it's mirror. They love to conform. While issuing the $7 ticket up to 6 mid east males would approach from a family of Hijab-clad figures. There were so many ticketless cars I could never finish. maybe one or two bothered to buy them, perhaps 99.9% would be more realistic.

This is what I learnt: officers only occasionally enforce permits.

You learnt bugger all, depending on the season. I went up to four weekends a month, including the 18 or others in my section. I've written out 100 in 5 hours!

go in pairs,

Mostly, I often went alone.

connected via two-way.

Portables, crap, I wouldn't trust my life to one.

Police - phone call away,

We had panic buttons in the booths, it could take up to 15 mins for them to come.

Zefstar was being soft on you. I cannot imagine why an officer is counting "mossies"

May Allah bless his cotton socks. I wasn't counting mossies. It's just what I saw, what am supposed to think? I've seen convoys of mossie families drive by the pay display machine and NOT PAYING.

reason for an officer to be intimidated.

Approach a group of them on a fire danger day and tell them to put their fire out.

penalty applies the same to everyone.

Told them many times.

To be continued

Officers can issue a notice to pay, $7 fee or a penalty results. If the officer believes the vehicle has offended before, they can directly issue a penalty notice. In either case the fine is $68

Of which I issued hundreds of the former and dozens of the latter mainly to mossies because they were often the ones lighting fires on fire ban days, blocking emergency access gates. They never offended in regards to dogs, don't have them because Allah says dogs are evil.

officer said something about "common sense"

Where?

which one can guess means don't provoke a riot over a $7 fee. (I just tell it as it was told to me.) Why is that the case?

I tell it how I see it. Dismiss one crime encourage the commission of many. That $7 fee is great law enforcement. Keeps out the riff-raff. People don't pay to enter parks to do burnouts or break into cars.

You had a legal responsibility to carry out your duties without considering the religion of those not paying.

And that's exactly what I did mossie or not. It just so happened they were the ones who were most often in the wrong by a long shot. There's another group I 'discriminated' against, surfies. Surfies were often up to no good in the park. If I saw a car with surfboards on top I'd check it out, same with mossies.

I have seen so many like yourself come through the NPWS. In no time they develop a more hardened and critical attitude toward mossies, even outright loathing. Their outlook is shattered through constant exposure to the arrogant and violent attitudes of mossies in the park. Your attitude is typically naïve of people who are not on the front lines, dealing with them on a daily basis. I've had conversations with RTA workers, Centrelink employees, police, security guards, nurses and teachers in places like Bankstown they all say the same thing about mossies.

The law applies to you too.

Go on sue me.

UNEMPLOYMENT among MUSLIM MALES.

I often hear the same whining from Muslims, for example in France.

"They have to give us JOBS JOBS JOBS.. so much unemployment..people are bored stupid... this is why they are unruly" etc etc...

REASONS.

1/ Employer looks at resume, sees a Muslim name: His thoughts might be..

a) Will this guy want to have time off during work hours to pray ? (after all, its a 'pillar' of Islam.. and obligatory)

b) Will he want time off on Friday to go to the mosque ? and if I don't accomodate his religion, will he sue me for 'religious discrimination' ?

c) If things don't work out, and I have to sack him, will he get his extended family and trash my factory, beat me up ?

d) Even if he doesn't make demands to practice his religion 'now' will he do so later if they become more powerful ?

So, an employer has good reason to feel a lack of enthrusiasm about employing Muslims due to the propensity to violence as demonstrated in many anecdotal incidents in other countries and our own.

SOCIAL ALIENTATION
This of course leads to 2 things.

1/ Isolation from the 'outside' community, and a tendency for Muslims to find work among their own group.

2/ For those who cannot find work, they feel increasing hostility towards the community, which further exacerbates the first point.(and underlines the 'reasons' given above.)

If a poster on another thread is correct, that there is a Mosque in Bankstown which blasts out the Islamic call to prayer on a PA system, it is just further confirmation of the social incompatability of Islam which totally disregards the sensibilities of non muslims in the area and the basic 'fair go' attitude of Australia.

David Latimer tries to dissect Meg1 in a recent post as to riots. He knows full well what she is pointing to. That of the muslims daily urban jihad they are waging against the poor suffering skips and any other poor bastard they come across, not withstanding the general s$@thead attitude.

Apologies to some of the old lefties out thier for a recent post it wasnt you I was meaning to offend but the flag burning, pro immigration, politically correct, starry eyed and general crap that seems to sit on its ass unless thier bagging the rest of the people who pay the taxes that allow them to do what thier doing. Those people and the David Latimers of the world, them and those whom handed down these political and social ideals are the reason we even have a forum discussing a parasitic religion.

Also to the guy that censured my post, Mohammed was a child defiler, it is written in the bookQ. I may have gone to far about him defiling pigs or was it dogs, for that I lament.
Either way disgusting attributes to have in your chosen deities right hand dude wouldnt you think? Think about it 100000000 people believe whole heartedly in a child molester.

From Waleed Aly’s Opinion piece published in today’s Australian …..

‘This week, Prime Minister John Howard spoke of "a fragment" of Muslim Australia that militates against successful integration because it "is utterly antagonistic to our kind of society". This, he insisted, is unique in the history of Australian immigration: "You can't find any equivalent in Italian or Greek or [presumably non-Muslim] Lebanese or Chinese or Baltic immigration to Australia. There is no equivalent of raving on about jihad, but that is the major problem."

Welcome to the doctrine of Muslim exceptionalism. Yet we have seen this all before. The Greeks, with their mysterious condition, Mediterranean Back, were welfare bludgers, addicted to the dubious business practices of the cash economy. The Vietnamese had imported Triad culture's noxious mix of drugs and gang violence. Before them, Catholics were untrustworthy misfits: their allegiance was unshakably to Rome, and not to Australia. This was ostensibly a uniquely Catholic problem for 50 years.’

For those too young to know, those too old to remember or those who find it more convenient to ignore, please read 'Migrant History Repeats' at the following link.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18239776%5E7583,00.html

David Latimer is one manipulative PC freak. Where did the 'fair go' concept originate, since when has it come to define Australia? When I hear politicians talking about Australia's high population growth I cringe. It is an artificial population growth sped up by greedy polly's looking for more consumers.

We don't need to import muslims, or Africans or Chinese here...just the greedy few (Latimer?) who can manipulate popular thinking to quadruple the immigration intake every ten seconds.

Our family structure has been totally ripped apart in the name of 'progress'. RU486 is like petrol on the fire!

davo

don't worry mate the PC we deal with on OLO is the Pc extreamists nut jobs in the real world multicult is so hated by most people.

Response to CARNIFEX: I believed I didn't accuse you personally of breaking the law, but reading it again, I may have implied it and certainly you’ve taken it that way. That's my fault and I apologise for the implication. Sorry about that. I agree that $7 fee is good too. There should be a fine for lighting a fire during a ban too and being fair means if you do the wrong thing you pay the penalty. So these non-payers should pay $68, right? The only disagreement is whether this is a matter of individual responsibility.

Response to Davo and Meredyth: If you have lost the argument have the grace to accept it with dignity, rather than resort to name calling. My PC is working well, just the fan is noisy.

Response to Scotty: Fictional riots cannot be used to support your argument.

Response to JR: The next line says "With hindsight, we see this for the hysteria it is..." So some context was lost with your quote. I believe he means 'Many people thought group X was bad, but that was hysteria'. Not such a good article, because some will take it to mean 'group X was bad too, so why pick on us.'

Response to David_BOAZ: Point (c) from your post was silly, applying to any deranged person. And point (d) invalid because such rights already exist under Australian law (Workchoices).

Nevertheless, I agree that points (a) and (b) on muslim prayer and fasting need to be looked at, for the benefit of both employers and employees. I did some investigation and couldn’t find any practical information for employers. It would be unfair if one group were legally able to work less than others, even if it’s only 10 to 15 minutes per day. It is probably as significant as those breaks taken by smokers, but there should be no resentment in the workplace for praying, for the reasons of alienation as explained. Australians are clever at finding solutions to problems, and this is probably already happening one-on-one, but more could be done here, certainly.

"Response to Davo and Meredyth: If you have lost the argument have the grace to accept it with dignity, rather than resort to name calling. My PC is working well, just the fan is noisy."

yeh agreed David L your PC is just noise.

DAVID LATIMER
Nice to see agreement where it is clearly needed. (points a) and b) )
But c is not as silly as you think, though I conceed it does apply to more than just Muslims... not so much to a deranged person. I can't imagine such a person's family joining in a mini crusade when they know he is 50c in the dollar. In the back of my mind is the events portrayed in Tim Priests article about the rise of Middle Eastern crime and their 'extended family' raids on Bankstown/Lakemba police stations.

The cultural encroachments that bother me are examples such as:

1/ Calls to prayer from PA systems.
2/ Denial of ham sandwiches on religious grounds at council functions(SAHRIA)
3/ The 'religious discrimination' aspects already mentioned.
4/ Changes to our law on stamp duty to accomodate specifically "Islamic" loans. (i.e. SHARIA)
5/ Changes to burial laws to specifically accomodate 'Islamic' burial requirements (SHARIA)
6/ Attempts to silence legitimate criticism of Mohammed and Islam in public debate and media. RRT2001 Vic. (SHARIA)

None of these things happened overnight. The burial law exception took a lot of lobbying by Melbourne Muslims, but lobby they did, and won.

I still feel outrage over the Ham sambos affair, (Hume Council) mainly because it was allowed in the name of 'multi culturalism' but the direct impact was a denial of the majority culture. I still feel outraged over John Fein's comments "I can't see what all the fuss it about" (John of course being Jewish, and not an eater of Pork presumably, might shed light on his not being able to "see" the fuss)

I highly value the fact that our parliament begins with Christian prayer. "Our Father. who art in heaven, hallowed by thy name, thy will be done on earth" etc...

The day that some reading from the Quran or an Islamic prayer EVER enters our parliament, is the day I will succeed from Australia.(in my heart at least)

David Latimer,

Pardon me... not only you can't think logically, you completely mis-understood what I was alluding to.

I was suggesting it is okay to discriminate, pick and choose who comes to Australia. We Asians discrminate all the time, no big deal.

Nothing to do with a sense of 'fair-go'. You and your confused mind.

David Latimer

I have worked with Muslims in a white collar environment for many years. None of those I worked with or consulted with as a part of my duties ever took time out of the working day or not make appointments due to prayer times. I assume they made up for it outside of office hours. As for Ramadan - those who followed it simply didn't eat during working hours, unless they were ill or needed sustenance (pregnancy), they also made up for eating during daylight hours outside of work. Again, Ramadan did not interfere with work.

In other words, having worked regularly with Muslims I was never inconvenienced by them because of their religion.

I agree with JR in that Australians tend to vilify each new wave of immigrants. Muslims will assimilate over time if they are given the opportunity. They're just human beings like the rest of us. And, as such, there are bad just as there are bad Australians.

In all things, balance.

Response to Scout:

Scout, your experience is no different to mine and I think I've made it fairly clear that issue is minor and probably already being solved in the workplace one-on-one. But if David BOAZ presents a argument, which is not complete nonsense, then I'll try to respond positively, especially that he has tried to distinguish himself from the racial hatred posts.

Response to David BOAZ:

Well, guess what? You can rest easy my friend, because the ham-sandwich affair is just a blog rumour. I spoke to a Hume Council officer and she said that there is no such policy, no such view. Let me explain what I learnt:

There are three Turkish councillors on Hume Council, Victoria. At a few council functions in 2003, an eager caterer decided not put ham sandwiches on the menu. Then someone noticed and made a fuss. The councillors explained it was never a problem to have ham sandwiches for other people and the caterer asked to supply them. Problem solved.

As usual, a little bit of research uncovers the facts: Australians solving problems, clearing up misunderstandings and working together.

You are not specific on points 3 to 5. Perhaps you could verify point 1 yourself because there are NSW noise laws and I can't find anything online to verify this at all. I ask you to consider that because you are a fairly reasonable person, things you say have more weight compared to others and hence people would be likely to take your comments as truthful.

BD, feeling like a post so I thought I'd have a look at your list.

1/ Calls to prayer from PA systems.
- Not nice if I lived near it but I know churches which ring bells to announce their worship services and some which sound more like a rock concert during services and I've had neighbours at times which insist on playing music at distortion levels. A preference for your own sounds at levels which bother those who don't want to share them is not a new muslim thing.
2/ Denial of ham sandwiches on religious grounds at council functions(SAHRIA) - See Mr Latimers comments.
3/ The 'religious discrimination' aspects already mentioned. Many christain schools advertise that all staff are christain - 'religious discrimination'?
4/ Changes to our law on stamp duty to accomodate specifically "Islamic" loans. (i.e. SHARIA) - does this provide an unfair advantage to muslims of just accomodate a different way of doing things? If the former then it is an issue, otherwise it part of the normal process of the law adjusting to change.
5/ Changes to burial laws to specifically accomodate 'Islamic' burial requirements (SHARIA) - In what way does this harm the general community? See previous comment.
6/ Attempts to silence legitimate criticism of Mohammed and Islam in public debate and media. RRT2001 Vic. (SHARIA) - I have a fairly broad objection to censorship and mixed views on the villification thing. Col wrote some good stuff a couple of days ago about the benefits of letting people air silly ideas rather than letting them fester in dark corners (not his words). Do you support the censoring of stuff you might find offensive (pornography for example)? Is the issue for you that your freedoms to condem Islam are limited or that individuals freedoms to make our own choices are limited? I don't recall that muslims were in the front of the charge to shut Pauline Hanson up so attempts to silence critics up is not a new muslim innovation in Australia - not Sharia just one approach to different views.

R0bert

a family memory …..

‘When I was at Currabubula (near Tamworth) in 1937) there was an Indian (Sikh) tobacco grower - turban and all. In spite of his wonderful friendliness and hospitality towards visitors (such as Dad and I) the locals resented his presence in the bush Aussie environment. One night they burnt his shack and tobacco ready for picking and marched him out of town. No police action that I can recall and we lived next door to the Police Station.

In 1938 at Spring Hill (near Orange) at my first morning at the local Public School the son of the local Methodist Parson fronted up to me in the playground pushing me in the chest and saying " you don't pray to God, you pray to a dirty old dago in Rome". I felt justification in giving him some whereupon his dozen or so mates stepped in forcing me to the ground and kicking the bejasus out of me.

Upon return to class, battered and bruised, the Teacher told me that I was a disgrace and he would not have me in his class room. I had to sit on the balcony till school end for the day.

My mother got it out of me what happened and fronted the Teacher who came up with the words still in my mind, "We have never had trouble at this school until your son started today".

Bigotry, whether religious or racial is often stirred up in otherwise decent people for reasons of diversion from reality. I believe that Howard is a master of this trick. The question is what and why? Ask uncle Sam!

Our security services would have identified any potential problems in migrants very early in the piece - why no action the before the "sh*t" hit the fan?

Who threw the first stone?’

When a muslim will come to the point and answer 2 questions for me I will be content:
1. Which comes first Sharia law or Australian law

2. Does Islam preach world domination

If a muslim would be good enough to answer these two simple questions, we non-Islamic souls may have a better idea, with which to formulate an opinion.

SHONGA

Great post mate. The only Muslim who I can think of who would honestly answer your questions is Bashir Goth.

Cheers mate
Kay

Can Muslims tellme where it says in the Koran that sex is waiting for anyMEN who terrorise ,kill and maim innocent people including their own which happens daily ?

Sex is of the fleash it is nor spiritual,Jesus said there is no sex in Heaven all Christians will be a s angels.

Muslims are headed for HELL as their recognized prophet who cannot lie (JESUS) said there isn't so,that's it.

Shonga,

Apologies my answer will be a little contextual so let me know if I need to explain:

1. Shariah laws in essence is a mix of laws put together in a preventive context to protect the society, social fabric and health.

So for me, a tougher sentencing in the Australian laws is as good as Shariah law. Its a context not a content.

2. Islam = Quran. The context teaches commandments and defines the framework of mutual respect to other religions (identified as 'people of the book') or people of non-religions whom we have to honour peace treaties with them (the context of that time was bilateral peace treaties).
There is no domination preaching (local or global) in mainstream Islam.

The issue with Islam and Muslims is not about which parts of islam is or isn't to be practised but its rather the 'literal' versus the 'contextual practice in Islam that I see polarising people.

Hope I was a bit useful.

Dobbodan,

Very informative posting indeed! Put the keyboard down before you hurt yourself.

Peace,

Shonga,

Let me decipher FH's text

transcript is between brackets:

Apologies my answer will be a little contextual so let me know if I need to explain:

[You caught me there let see how I can fool you by not answering your questions]

1. Shariah laws in essence is a mix of laws put together in a preventive context to protect the society, social fabric and health.

[We don’t disclose Sharia Law to potential converts until they pledge allegiance to Allah and his prophet…then it’s too late hehehe…]

So for me, a tougher sentencing in the Australian laws is as good as Shariah law. Its a context not a content.

[At first, we make believe that we obey the law of the land, we even encourage tougher laws, we play the game until we incrementally introduce our own laws…which are a bit more radical but we have no choice but to obey Allah.]

2. Islam = Quran. The context teaches commandments and defines the framework of mutual respect to other religions (identified as 'people of the book') or people of non-religions whom we have to honour peace treaties with them (the context of that time was bilateral peace treaties).
There is no domination preaching (local or global) in mainstream Islam.

[Islam = Quran = No choice but to obey Allah’s commends to bring all religions under our dominion. Those who don’t convert to islam voluntarely will be sorry – we’ll make their life really interesting…]

The issue with Islam and Muslims is not about which parts of islam is or isn't to be practised but its rather the 'literal' versus the 'contextual practice in Islam that I see polarising people.

[There are two kinds of muslims – those who follow our qur’an without thinking and those who think but follow anyway]

Hope I was a bit useful.

[Hope you won’t ask intelligent questions soon.]

Dobbodan,

Very informative posting indeed! Put the keyboard down before you hurt yourself.

[I can’t handle more truths against islam in one day – I’ll deal with you later.]

Peace,

[Pheeeeww!]

Coach,

To watch your poor theology on discussions with intelligent posters like Aziliz, Alchemist & SAS, a better use of your time is to study proper theology and maybe one day you will understand there is little difference between Islam, Judaism and Christianity.
Its how we behave, enrich our lives and people around us that matters.
We all worship one God. Its not healthy to live with anger, hate and envy. Why blame others not accepting you if you don't accept them?

Peace,

Coach at least we belive there is a God but we have plural gods' here one is Alighty God and Islam's is allah, The Bible was written 5,300 years bfore Islam and Muslims were even heard of, and it can't lie or be stretched,God is not a man that He can lie.

Jesus Christ IS The Son of God and God did not need a wife to conceive Him as Muslims think..
The Bible clearly tell us that in the last days,all Jews and Christians will suffer for their belief in Jesus Christ,just look at middle East treatment to non-Muslism today.

Jesus said ,they will kill us and think they are doing God a favour,but he also said "that vengance is Mine I will repay says The Lord".

The book of Reavalations tell us that many believer's in Christ will be beheaded in thelats days just before Christ returns.

Is that not happening.look at the website of the three teenage Christian girls beheaded a few weeks ago in Indonesia because they were Christains .That Says it ALL>