Would you look at that I just mentioned the Pinocchio Mosque-teers and they all showed up.

Boaz,

True 'by the book' recital of Abraham family tree.
Thank you for 'coaching coach' :-)
Keturah was Abraham's third wife (after Sarrah and Hagar).

Coach,

Does it make sense to you Mr Intellect that Abraham never went back to visit his first born (even though Hagar and her son were blessed by angels, God will bless Ishmael and make him a great nation, etc, etc..). But then again its a good idea not to think.
If you check the "Abraham diary" you are quoting from you will notice he was born before the Torah. He couldn't be a jew.
Let me guess. You sound like an Arab Orthodox Christian.Are you? The one you quoted from the Van Dyek bible "Damoh aleina wee ala awladna" when Jews asked for the Crucifix can only be quoted by Orthodox.

Martin Ibn Something,

You never fail to impress me.
So now you think your faith is made by philosophers and holy men?
Now philosophers I understand. Can you explain how can a man become 'holy'?

Boaz, my point is that the teachings and documents of all religions have been deliberately corrupted over time to enhance or entrench the power of the clergy. Perhaps the most prominent example occured at the time of the Reformation when Luther and Calvin and their followers set up the Protestant faiths. Catholics fought back to assert the supremacy of Rome. One of their tactics was to insist that Catholic traditions and teachings, in combination with the Bible, and not the Bible alone,was the true basis of Christian faith. From an objective standpoint, that is a contentious claim aimed solely at shoring up the power of the Pope and Catholic clergy against the Protestant challenge. It would be possible to cite many more such examples across all religions.

Dear PK
now I can agree with you.. on one point at least.. re the Catholic approach to 'Authority' not being Sola Scriptura, but as you point out, it includes the traditions of the Church.

Another name for this is 'spiritual relativism' :) where if you have a 'bad Pope' you will get 'bad theology' and so on.

I maintain though, that the scriptures have not been altered to entrench power, there is a contentious verse in 1 John, in which the 'Trinity'seems to be presented, and I accept this might be a textual problem. No need to go into all the background to that. People can search.

The predominant tone of Scripture is God above all, not the Church in the sense of an 'authority structure'. We, the Church, the body of Christ, are called to be Salt and Light, but not a big stick wielded by a Lumberjack wearing hobnail boots :)

Catholicism places considerable emphasis on the words of Jesus to Peter "Upon this rock I will build my church" and regarding Peter as the 'first pope'. I have to reject this understanding on many grounds among which are of course principles of sound interpretation.

To the extent that our Catholic friends present the Christ of Scripture, I will rejoice and worship with them in heartfelt unity.
Where they depart from this, I will withdraw.
Blessings all

So the millions of men and women religious who have historically lived on starvation wages are all intellectual prostitutes preaching for pay.

This absurdity - the largest fraud every perpetrated on Western society demands an explanation. It invites more of an explanation than the existence of Christianity itself.

It is implausible in the extreme.

Why defame a whole class of great servents of our civilisation?

My suggestion is to read Catholic doctrine about the sacraments. Read about the deposit of faith passed on by the church. Find out how splintered protestant churches are without a central authority. Thank heavens the Church knew itself well enough to defend against revolutionary elements in the Reformation.

Anyway, these are 500 year old debates and all you have to offer is some ugly slander of the Catholic Church and its celibate priesthood. You try and give up a wife and family to serve people in God's name.

You see. Christianity hasn't been tried and found wanting its been found hard and not tried. If everyone were genuine disciples of Christ we would be living in wonderful peaceful world.

Deliberate corruption of the Bible? In actual fact putting the oldest Bible next to all the transcriptions and translations we find amazing harmony. This is easy to do this comparison, because so many Bibles have been written.

PK you have written nonsense two times in a row. Pull your finger out.

BOAZ_David,

Thanks for your question: “Coach.. can you provide sources for your claim about Ishmael not being father of the Arabs ? Im pretty sure Genesis actually says something like he 'is'.”

Sorry Genesis never mentions this, but Arabs existed existed before, during, and after Abraham or Ishmael was born.

Arabia was already populated by the descendants of Cush and Shem.

When God disposed of Hagar, Ishmael started roaming the wilderness of North Arabia.

There is no historical or archaeological evidence that Ishmael ventured south to Mecca. (a thousand kilometer away)

He was not a pure Arab so how could he be the "Father” of the Arab race.

At best Ishmael and his descendents would have been 'Arabicised' by intermarriage with other Arabs. His first wife was Egyptian though.

If all the Arab people descended from Ishmael according to Mohammad:

What happened to all the original Arabs?

Who built Mecca - where Mohammad was born - if Arabia was unpopulated?

Qahtan is said to be the “Father” of the Arab people, not Ishmael.

Ishmael and ALL the other sons of Abraham were explicitly excluded by God from having any part of the covenant made with Abraham.

The Abrahamic Covenant was given only to Isaac and to his descendants (the Jews).

All other attempts by Mohammad in manipulating evidence to claim his Semitic and Prophetic ancestry could well have worked on some illiterate nomads then, but today “the game is over”

My, my my, what an interesting bunch of Christian "witnesses" we have here. G'day all. I'm a card-carrying Quaker myself, but don't hold that much truck with the bible, qu'ran, torah, etc. As George Fox put it: "You will say Christ saith this, and the apostles say this; but what canst thou say? Art thou a child of Light, and hast thou walked in the Light, and what thou speakest is it inwardly from God?"

I am a witness to God myself, although it is beyond me to say exactly what or who "God" is. All I "know" is that God exists.

As for "religion" - my true faith lies in democracy. Albeit a certain kind of democracy, viz:

i) Where the executive arises from within the legislature (as opposed to an American system of executive separate from the legislature).

ii) Where the judiciary is separate from the legislature (this is pretty standard the world over).

iii) Where members of the legislature are elected via preferential voting for single-member constituencies (as opposed to proportional representation - the worst-case in the world being Israel).

iv) Where (HERE'S THE BIG ONE FOLKS - NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS THIS ... YET) full general elections for all representatives are held on an annual basis.

That's right folks - annual general elections. It would make for better accountability, transparency, stability, long-term planning, consensus-building, and cost cutting. It would foster a better "culture" of democratic processes and ideals, and would give us all something to celebrate each & every year.

We have built a pretty good House of democracy in Australia. Alas, we have yet to learn how to maintain it well.

One thing ALL traditional “religions” have in common? Annual festivals that celebrate and inculcate their particular “world view”. You cannot have Easter (or Christmas), or Hajj, or Passover, or Buddha’s birthday, etc. etc. every second, third, fourth year! And the same goes for all secular “religions – ANZAC Day, Australia Day, 4th July, AFL grand final, etc.

Happy to discuss this further if anyone wishes.

In peace,
David (in Perth, Western Australia)