I continue to be amazed at the effort being expended by otherwise intelligent people on behalf of David Hicks. I can only think that it is a way of expressing their fundamental anti-american and anti-capitalist sympathies.

As far as I can assess, the fact that is not disputed is that David Hicks was captured in Afghanistan in a battlefield situation fighting against American forces.

As the regime for which he was fighting was not internationally recognised, and as he was not wearing the designated military uniform of a recognised country, he could not possibly qualify for prisoner-of-war status under the Geneva Convention, and would have the status of unlawful combatant.

Under the convention, the americans would have been fully entitled to have him put up against a wall and shot. However, I gather they thought it would be better to send him to Guantanamo Bay for questioning.

The failure of the left intelligensia to recognise that we are in a war situation, continues to amaze me. The entire western world could well be brought to its knees by these terrorists, particularly if they succeed in interrupting the flow of oil from the middle east.

The events in Spain and Britain in the last few years are, I believe, only local actions perpetrated by isolated groups. Osama hasn't pulled of a big one since 2001. If it comes, it is likely to be an attack against the oilfields.

As a frequent air traveller I have had to consider what I would do if I were to be involved in an airborne terrorist incident. Should I kill a terrorist in self-defence? How would I go about doing that? After much thought I have decided that if possible I should not kill the terrorist, but capture him so that he can be sent to Guantanamo Bay to be tortured.

Even if it is possible to justify his detainment, there is no excuse for the conditions in which he is forced to live. You wouldn't even treat an animal in that way. Bloody disgraceful.

If Hicks hasn't learned patience during is incarceration he never will. However his patience or lack of patience is irrelevant. It appears that he will go nowhere soon.

John, as with most contributors, hasn’t properly referenced his citing of Bob Ellis. I have just scanned my 1998 copy, and can’t find the comment. Perhaps there is a later edition or I’m haven’t looked hard enough.

Of course, I fully accept that anyone who quotes Bob Ellis in a positive way would regard Alexander Downer as “pathetic”. As a one-time constituent of Mr. Downer’s, I can say he did as reasonable a job for his electorate as did any other politician, and David Hicks never lived in Downer’s electorate, as far as I’m aware. Downer wasn’t speaking of his duties as Foreign Minister (which would be his only interest in Mr.Hicks), if John Andrewartha’s quote is correct.

Most of this article is not connected with the author’s hope that Mr. Hicks is patient, and his attempts to gain citizenship of a country his only connection with is it's his mother’s birth. The whole thing is just an excuse to lambast Alexander Downer, as others have over the entire period of Mr. Hicks’s incarceration. I thought we had got past that. Downer and the Government have repeatedly said that they will not intervene on Mr. Hicks’s behalf. Now this author want’s interference lodged with another country on a matter which certainly has nothing to do with Australia – who that country accepts as a citizen. That makes as much sense as Premier Bracks asking for the Cypriot Government to excuse a Cypriot tennis player from military service because he plays well.

If this is journalism, I’ll eat my hat. If contributors are going to merely express opinions, they need to be restricted to 350 words as we are.

The treatment of Hicks is beyond comprehension. Our leaders continue to show total lack of social conscence and moral fibre falling in line with all the disturbed President's whims.Sadly our nation is burdened with these poor excuses for leaders

Hicks joined a death loving pagan religion then trained to fight the perceived 'enemies' of this nasty butcherous religion [all other religions are included as enemies of course]
How much mercy would he or has his compatriots shown their enemies be they unarmed civilian men, women or even babies and children.
Hicks is not stupid [well he is actually for joining them] he knew what he was signing up for. He knew he would be a part of a merciless group of murderous, gutless thugs.
With a little more indoctrination would he have strapped a bomb on and suicided killing innocent people here in Australia?
Hicks is a trained bloody terrorist, hicks would have obeyed and killed his fellow countrymen and women with their children.
As you can see I have little compassion for a terrorist whatever his/her nationality.
Yes I have seen a picture of him, Hicks, cradling a grenade launcher, though he could have just been going rabbit shooting I suppose. There are more important things to worry about you know, a lot more. numbat

As somebody who's concerned about the fate of Hicks, I'd like to apologise for this article. The author's naive faith in the innocence of Hicks isn't representative of those of us who care about this issue. Here's the problem- the UK successfully demanded that their nationals be released from Guantamo. We haven't, though we've repeatedly raised our concerns about the detention of Aussies and been ignored. At the very best, this makes us look like the junior partner in the coalition. However you look at it, it's embarassing. Downer claims that Hicks couldn't be tried here, but wasn't he fighting for an organisation that professed a desire to establish an international caliphate? Doesn't that qualify as treason, or at least sedition? Bring him home, put him on trial, and if he's guilty lock him up.

I am getting sick and tired of views on David Hicks that just regurgitate rumours and half truths.

Plerdsus. “the fact that is not disputed is that David Hicks was captured in Afghanistan in a battlefield situation fighting against American forces.” Wrong he was captured by the northern alliance and handed over to the American Forces. We have no evidence of what he was doing only allegations which have been denied. Your reading of the Geneva Conventions is also wrong. There is no mention of unlawful combatant in international law, it is a concept invented by the US. But the Geneva Conventions do say he should be treated as a prisoner of war until a competent tribunal has decided his status.

In contrast look a how the two Americans captured with Hicks have been treated. Both have already been tried, one convicted, one released, in the American Criminal Justice System with proper legal defence and rules of evidence.

Hicks should be tried either as a civilian or as a combatant, either in a civilian or military court.This should be an Australian Court, we we also involved in Afghanistan. Not by some tribunal that is at best unfair and worst illegal.

But of course he’s guilty the media told me so.

“Should I kill a terrorist in self-defence? How would I go about doing that?” Maybe you just sit next to him and talk, you would bore him to death.

Why do all you people keep referring to Muhammad Dawood as David Hicks, according to his father when he converted to Islam he asked to be called Muhammad Dawood so please respect his wishes. I would not like to think that you all fall into line to make out that he is just a silly little Australian boy and not the terrorist that he appears to be??

Even as a neo-con, Howard supporter, I cannot support the indefinite detainment of David Hicks nor the pending military trial. In fact I think supporting Hick's detention is the single largest mistake Howard has made during his time as Prime Minister.

Prima facie there is a case against Hicks. However the particulars of that case have not been disclosed, it has taken over four years to put together and it will not be heard by civilian courts. The last fact particularly disturbs me as the US has continually denied Hicks is a prisoner of war. In that case he should be tried as a terrorist in civilian courts.

The new movie 'Good Night and Good Luck' is a timely reminder that every individual is entitled to defend any accusations levelled against him by anyone or anything. The state should not be tacitly given the authority to usurp the judicial arm of democracy. Hicks may well be a terrorist but he should not be forced to defend himself within a system in which the gold poasts are constantly moved.

LizzieE! Read the previous couple of posts, please! We don't know whether he's a 'poor little Australian boy' or 'the terrorist he appears to be'. Why? Because he hasn't had a trial yet. When he does, then we'll all be able to villify him or apologise to him at our leisure.

I read he was caught standing by the side of the road waiting for a bus,maybe he never had the money to bribe the Northern Alliance forces who so I believe sold him to the US forces,bit hard to be on a battlefield waiting for a bus,how many English citizens have been tried in the US military courts, did not GW say they were the worst of the worst but seems to me a lot of them have been sent home,Hicks is still there cause Howard and the rest of his Govt lack the guts to stand up to the US start and finish of it.

It is this Countries greatest disgrace. To allow a citizen to rot in a hell hole. For what? We dont know. He has had no trial. All you Gov. apolagists should reflect on that. Four years and not a shred of evidence presented to a court or the wider public. That is our shame. Plersdus u are a sad ignorant person.

Agreed wre, the point made by one of the senators in the film; that every man should have the right to meet both his accusers and the evidence against him, is a pertinent one. As is the point that there is a world of difference between criticism of a government and sympathy for an enemy.

Downer’s continued public accusations as to hicks's character and guilt, conducted without the possibility of defence or rebuttal, bear a striking resemblance to those of McCarthy.

If 'he's a really bad man' is the extent of the case against him it’s hardly surprising his trial will remain both conditional and private.

Surely a guilty verdict in a court of law would be a great boon for this government, a symbol not only of our operational success, but also the continuing integrity and principal of our judiciary.

That they maintain their secrecy suggests that the issue of hicks's guilt is not as certain as Mr Downer would have us believe.

Thank you, thank you,, John Andrewartha, for sticking up for that traitor Hicks. There is only one thing that you did not do. When you are crying over terrorists next time, could you do your best to associate yourself with the Labor Party, the Democrats and the Greens? It will do wonders for John Howard's re election chances.

And I see that you are dredging up the Hilton hotel bombing. The bloke who confessed to planting that bomb, and who got clean away with it, had an attack of consciounce years later and fingered Anderson as the mastermind who put him up to it. How Anderson beat that rap is beyond me.

I personally think Anderson is just as innocent as OJ Simpson and those US cops who beat Rodney King half to death.

Sorry I see him fighting for another country, not Australia. More or less says he didn't want to be Australian anymore.

He also volunteered to FIGHT and anyone, even one who joins regular military has to understand that carries a great risk. H even chose an outfit that had no regard to international law, yet now demands it?.

He may well have killed, a choice he made that he found acceptable, so he lives, a better option?

Anyone dealing with warfare, from Bush to hicks has made their own bed and has to accept the consequences.

Redneck and Verdant:

If David Hicks is a traitor and was an Al Qaeda sympathiser/ member then he deserves to be locked up for a very long time. But you guys are missing the point- all we know about Hicks is what has been released to the media through the government. Let's just speculate that that version is wrong-afterall we don't really know.

As it stands accusations have been levelled at Hicks and he has had no oppurtunity to defend himself. His own legal team, appointed by the US military has stated categorically that Hicks is not being afforded due process. Meantime Hicks has sat in a 'jail' for 4 years despite the fact that he has yet to face any determination on his guilt.

At best Hicks is guilty of extreme stupidity. At worst he is guilty of treason. However I would expect that as an Australian he is entitled to an institution other than the American military determining his guilt. He is also entitled to support from his government. It seems the most cliche of lines has been forgotten- innocent until proven guilty!?

In any case it makes me a little nervous to travel- let's speculate again...What if I was sitting in a town in Thailand that was suddenly swept by soldiers who found the majority of villagers to be Islamic militants? What if I was arrested, found to be guilty by association, not given a chance to defend myself, my countrymen assumed I was a militant based on 'facts' put forward by the media and I was left to rot in jail?.

To Mr WRE

David Hicks was caught fighting for a hostile armed force by members of an armed force allied to our cause. It was only through circumstance that he did not exchange fire with Australian troops in Afghanistan. Your claim that he was some sort of tourist is laughable. He did not go to Afghanistan to look at the Babiyan Buddhas. If David Hicks had been caught fighting for the Germans on Juno beach by the Canadians, there is no doubt that he would have been immediately considered a traitor. In the unlikely event that he survived the first hour of capture, he would have been promptly tried and hung, along with other British traitors like Lord Haw Haw .

David Hicks was a member of an armed force that was committed to keeping in power a “government” that was recognised by only two countries in the world. He wore no uniform and he was fighting for a regime that was committed to protecting Osama bin Laden and his merry band of fanatical Jihadi’s. This organisation has murdered Australians.

Now, I would like to know why Hicks has not been charged with treason. If what defines treason today has been so watered down that it means nothing anymore, then you can go on, and on, about his “rights” and I could not care less. There are two principles at stake here, not one. And as far as I am concerned, my definition of “Justice” means that Hicks must either be charged with treason, or I could not care less if the Yanks use him for target practice.

This is not a civil legal case it is a new kind of war. Our soldiers kill the people who have no legal authority to fight us and who represent no government. These terrorists have declared war on us because we do not bow down to their God. They have declared that our women and our children are legitimate targets and consequently I see no need to be nice or fair to either them or their supporters. The gloves are off

Mr Redneck:

You'll probably find that the reason David Hicks has not been charged with treason is because he hasn't been before any court capable of charging him with treason. In fact if he is guilty i would much rather his trial be on Australian soil in an Australian court so other Australians will think twice about doing what he is ALLEGED to have done.

I completely reject your assertion that had Hicks been caught fighting for the Germans against the Canadians (what the) that he would have been lucky to last an hour- last time I checked the CDF and ADF didn't summarily execute people without trial. In fact what you have desribed fits more closely with the WWII Japanese Military-a military our diggers were executed by and despised.

You'll also note that the 'tourist analogy' I used was an attempt to get your one tracked mind thinking about what the indefinite detention of an Australian citizen without charge means for you, me and other Australians. I wonder if Hicks had been detained by Indonesia or China whether you would be just as content to let the status quo continue?

I readily admit to being a staunch conservative but this is wrong no matter where on the spectrum a person sits. Denying people the right to defend themselves and for evidence against them to be openly disclosed in order to prove guilt, is the first step towards a society that is not Australian. I don't want to be a part of that.

Mr Redneck, the ex-army cook, spewing forth his non-sensical poisen, once again. " the gloves are off......". Get off your computer and go back to your Playstation 2, where you cant harm anyone.

Oh! hedgehog go on learn to use playstation yourself - if possible don't rant in a jealous rage on those who can. numbat

The vitriol shown to David Hicks by some on OLO, without knowing anything of the back ground of the man, without any knowledge of what he has supposed to have done. It smells of a vigilante attitude, that comes from second class media information,Government spin and a one track mind thinking

To Mr WRE

The reason why David Hicks has not been charged for what appears to me as plain a case of treason that could be imagined, is a question that I an many other Australians are still waiting for an official answer too. And until somebody from the legal fraternity tells me how a man who has been caught fighting in an irregular armed force that is fighting against an Allied Army containing Australian troops, and who is fighting to protecting a terrorist organisation that has killed Australians, is not a traitor, then I could not care less about Hicks.

The US has no reason to allow Hicks to be released. At the very least he is an enemy combatant and as such he may be held in custody until the War on terror is over. The Taliban were only recognised as legitimate by only two governments, Pakistan (which created it ) and Yemen. The Taliban was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention and even if it had been, it’s soldiers were breaking the Convention by not wearing an internationally recognised military uniform. Hicks was not a uniform wearing soldier, and as such he was an irregular. Irregular soldiers have not, never have been, and never will be recognised as legitimate combatants covered by the Geneva Convention. The yanks could just take him out and shoot him if they wanted too and that would not be a bad idea. If one side does not honour an agreement, it can hardly expect the other side to do so.

This has historical precedence. Japan was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention and it treated Allied POW’s captured in WW2 with exemplary brutality. In response, Allied troops routinely bayoneted or shot dead tens of thousands of wounded and helpless captured Jap soldiers. We even machined gunned lifeboats and machine gunned the crews of sinking ships in the water. The over riding principle is, and always has been, that if the other side wants to play dirty, we will accommodate them.

Redneck:

Did you get your lines from Die Hard or Dirty Harry?

I am from both a proud military and legal background. As a member of the legal fraternity I can tell you Hicks hasn't been charged with anything under Australian law because primarily he hasn't been allowed access to Australian jurisdiction. It seems that you would deny him access to both military and civilian courts as well, so I can't see how you can ask for legal explanations! Your 'evidence' though seemingly impressive has obviously been compiled by your extensive viewing of Fox Sports and the news flashes in between.

I can also speak for my brother, a commissioned officer in the ADF and state categorically that the Australian military has never stooped to the levels of others- any suggestion that the ADF wanted to match Japan's brutality in WWII is an afront to those serviceman and women who survived Burma etc. If you were an 'army cook' as a previous poster as suggested, it is indeed lucky that you were not in the infantry regiments or similar.

Anyway, the point isn't what Hicks is supposed to have done, no matter what the crime, Western legal tradition insists on the right of the individual to a fair, open and TIMELY trial.

If we can do our level best to give people like Martin Bryant a proper trial, then I fail to see any justification whatsoever for the FOUR YEARS WITHOUT TRIAL that Hicks has been subjected to. No matter what he crime he is accused of, he is formally innocent until proven guilty, and should be tried in a proper court.

It is a disgrace to both the Australian and United States Governments that he has effectively been left to rot without any formal judgement, only rumor and innuendo as to what he is accused of.

Numbat, what jealous rage. My posts state simply(for people like you);
* Mr Hicks has not been charged with anything
*No evidence of wrongdoing has been put before a court
*He has already spent four years in a concentration camp

*He was not caught fighting the coalition of the killing
In fact i dont know if Mr Hicks thinks violent vengeful thoughts such as Mr Redneck.
No i am not jealous just saddened that in Australia today Mr Redneck, and yourself never recieved a decent education.
The kind that gives you a capacity to seperate fiction from fact, plus an understanding that violence and prejudice never resolves anything.

Verdant, have you ever heard of the French Foreign Legion? If so, do your views expressed in your posting apply to the soldiers, fighting for them. If not ,Why not?

hedgehog: Jealous rage?? what I'm jealous because I didn't join and train with a terrorist organisation as did hicks?
Probably become as a shock to your sensitive psyche but terrorists train for combat otherwise why train them.
Again the picture of 'rambo' hicks cradling a grenade launcher that shows his soft sensitive side does it?
Or perhaps he was going rabbit shooting as has many fine Aussie boys.
Hicks was trained by a merciless bunch of rabid, brutal murderers. His new mob kill indiscriminantly, unarmed men, women, children or babies. They are extreme psycopaths and willing killers of those who they are comanded to slay. Hasn't been proved? this clown had been trained to KILL, if ordered to he would probably kill you and yours. numbat

Why are there no official figures of the number of "men, women, children or babies" killed or injured by the illegal invasion of Irag.

Numbat,

When was the evidence, trial, judge and jury in David Hicks issues. You seem to know a lot wothout any of the above. Don't you believe in the justice sytem...should we go back to lynching...what about witch burning?

The lack of an effective leader of the opposition is one big reason why Howard's crew have gotten away with so much. Most other western countries have an oppostion that has spoken out about this issue...and THEIR citizens sent home.

The Greens and the Democrats have spoken out...but Beazley, as usual, runs for the hills. Howard will go down in history as an infamous leader without conscience or morality..Beazley will be remembered as a big bag of wind.

Numbat,
I am waiting to here where you get your facts from; perhaps you, and others, can dwell on how important it is to have the rule of law. While the system we have is far from perfect, it is certainly better than imprisoning and torturing because George Bush says you are a "bad " person.

Hicks is suffering now, but history will show the infamy of this period in the US and it's followers actions...cold comfort for the hundreds of thousands dead, maimed and imprisoned without trial.

To Mr WRE

You are implying that traitor Hicks is facing criminal charges in Australia, and that the only reason he has not been charged is because our entrepreneurial, ambulance chasing legal system is unable to get at him. Pray tell, exactly which charges is traitor Hicks facing? Did he have some outstanding traffic fines?

Hicks is an illegal combatant and irregular soldiers, even those who fight with the sanction of recognised governments, have no legal protection at all. Neither civilian nor miliary. There have been attempts by third world countries to give irregular, guerrilla forces the status of POW’s when captured, but civilised countries will not have a bar of it. Professional, regular soldiers will never agree that people who wear civilian clothes and who can use this cover to shoot uniformed soldiers in the back, are fellow soldiers worthy of equal status.

Your brother is half right when he claims that Australian troops did not sink to the level of the Japs during WW2. But the fact remains that Australian, and every other Allied military force threw out the rules book when dealing with the Japs. Australian soldiers routinely executed wounded and helpless Jap soldiers. If you have never been aware of this before, it is obviously because you have never bothered to read a single book on the war in the South Pacific.

It is interesting that you brought up the subject of the movie, Dirty Harry. I have reached an age where violent movies involving extreme violence, car cases, explosions and the glamourisation of criminal behaviour seem ridiculous and childish. To me, a great movie uses it’s storyline to investigate the boundaries of moral principles. Dirty Harry was an example of this. The storyline involved a police officer who was more concerned with protecting his community than observing moribund legal principles which seemed only concerned with protecting the rights of criminals. The success of the movie was a reflection of public disenchantment with a legal system which is no longer working to protect the community.

Kipp/sunisle: We are dicussing hicks the fully trained terrorist,a gutless person who did not wear a uniform. A coward who like his brutal ilk has or would kill without any warning at all. Unarmed men, women, children and babies even their own if they happened to be there.
What justice system do the terrorists use - kidnap attempted ransom and then beheading. NOTE no trial.
Or a cravenly gutless clown will join a group with a bomb strapped to his body again no trial.
Of course we have problems with justice but hicks and his bloody lunatic friends have taken themselves out of the system.
Hicks knew he was doing this when he repudiated his country and joined these neanderthal murdering inhuman thugs.
These horrible apologies for humans rely in part on the 'bleeding hearts' in democratic countries. numbat

Numbat, get a grip. Stop raving and provide us with some facts.If you can provide some evidence of Mr Hicks killing babies after gouging thier eyes out, suicide bombing expeditions that he went on(Please note they must have been unsuccesful, because the evil critter still lives),shooting soldiers in the back and the other miriad of atrocaties you accuse him of, i will join in your condemnation of him.
If you cant provide this evidence(that several posters have asked you for) please shut up lest i mistake you for an ignorant oaf.

hedgehog: Deary, deary me - Its me that's raving? Mistake me for an ignorant oaf - O!well another sleepless night as h/hog doesn't like me.
Where did I say that terrorist hicks killed babies, gouging out eyes [never mentioned this delightful moslem habit at all] suicide bombing err hedgehog the terrorist hicks is behind bars this has stopped him strapping a bomb on, or hadn't you noticed?
Shooting soldiers in the back was not on my list either nor the myriad of atrocities.
I did not say that terrorist hicks had -YET! - committed these brutal and barbaric atrocities [though he had completed his terrorist training] but his "ILK" those he trained with. Those of his newly adopted nation and people including religion
And I'm the one raving, I'm the one that has to get a grip on myself?
Fact 1. He trained as a terrorist with peace loving, kind, respectful, full of love terrorists
Fact 2. I have seen a photo of him cradling a grenade launcher, though it could have been an anti-rabbit g/launcher.
Fact 3. Insane bloodthirsty trained islamic terrorists strap bombs onto their pathetic mindless bodies and kill innocent unarmed, unprepared civilian men, women,children and babies. All for 70 virgins and 32 perpetally untouched 'pearls' or boys with bottoms like a peach.
Please petal if you see me as an ignorant oaf - so what!
Just go back to your backing and protecting trained terrorists. These same trained butchers would if ordered to kill you and your family. numbat

Your advocacy of my position is brilliant. Nice work Numbag.

Numbat,

You seem to have a thing about the photo of Hick's with the grenade launcher.

Muliple choice question to make it easier.

Where was the photo taken?

1. Afghanistan
2. Albania
3. Serbia

A little hint, he was a "good guy" then with forces backed by the US.

Have you seen the photos of AWB management with weapons in Iraq as they were paying their master $260 Million.

Maybe they should be in Cuba as well.

Numbat. Your source of information is very suspect, as is all media information. Media pictures and television news can be so easily manipulated, to give the viewer what the respective media outlet wants the viewer to see.
Take nothing for granted, when it comes to the media. The media is just another business that will market the best way possible to sell their product.

Gee, I can't stop worrying about poor little Hicksy.
It really concerns me that he may be mistreated by his captors.
No hang on, I've changed my mind.
He was an apprentice murderer and deserves to swing from the nearest tree.
The funniest thing about the whole episode has been the ABC's unrelenting attempt to make a hero of the little miscreant.
Wake up you people. He was training in the business of murder.
He deserves same.
cheers,
Rodger

To Mr Numbat.

You have to forgive Steve Madden, Hedgehog and WRE’s deep concern for the welfare of traitor Hicks. After all, their own political philosophies are so akin to Hicks and his friends in Al Qaida, that they obviously feel great kinship with both Hicks and his Jihadi mates.

Personally, I want the trendy lefties to keep beating their breasts over Hicks. The more that these people display their sympathies with the sort of people who would happily murder our children in their beds, the more they destroy their credibility with the Australian public. Every other cause with which people like Madden, Hedgehog and WRE associate themselves with, then becomes tainted by association.

That people like WRE, Madden and Hedgehog can always be relied upon to support causes that are inimical to the interests of the Australian people, is the reason why there is now such disenchantment with “intellectuals” and the causes that they support. “Intellectual” has now become a euphemism for “idiot” and the term “political correctness” a euphemism for “a totally idiotic attitude”.

The funny thing about trendy lefties supporting idiotic causes is that they think that it is a way of displaying how smart they are, when in reality it is doing the exact opposite. Being opposed to traditional attitudes and reflexively opposing your own nations interest, has been the hallmark behaviour of “intellectuals” for so long, that they now do it automatically without even bothering to think about the causes that they are supporting or opposing.

Supporting anti Australian, and especially anti American causes, is now simply a ritual which displays their membership of the Brahmin caste

It is apparent that Numbat and others attacking David Hicks do so out of ignorance; even more ridiculously, they are beyond redemption- no reading, learning and checking facts for them!

It is not worthwhile having dialogue with people whose mind is set and have no wish to find out and learn. The fact that they do not answer questions, but parade the old hate mantra, ( without any substantiations), is indicative that they are not open to facts and dialogue.

There are some people who do not know what is happening, like, Numbat, but are willing to look and learn. It's extremely sad that Howard's supporters are made up of the Numbat types...those of Howard supporters that know the infamy perpetrated by his government- and still support him- are the most frightening however.

I hope he is patient too, another 60 years at least should end his internal agony, they could have relieved him of such pain in Afghanistan, but the Money thieves need victims to worship. The other poor excuse of human existence is back here in Australia, and he is an Arab, those Supreme Being’s we are told about, and they still Worship him. Can Loot a lot of money yet, so the more mileage the left get, the richer in loot they become. Cant do much about their morals or ethics, they do not have any to correct so watch you tax dollars disappear. Thanks.

To all who state Hicks is a traitor. I will state this very simply and clearly.

Our justice system is based on the premise of innocence until proven guilty.

Hicks has not yet been tried, ergot we do not know whether he is guilty, stupid, unlucky or a combination of all three.

He has been detained in a prison, without trial, for more years than most proven criminals receive. This is not justice.

To all who believe Hicks is a traitor - be concerned that if you were caught in the 'wrong' place at the 'wrong' time, you too, could be detained in a similar unjust manner. It can happen.

Whether Hicks is guilty or not the method of his treatment flies in the face of the democratic system we all hold so dear. This is why the case of Hicks is so important it is about much more than the idiotic behaviour of one young man; it is about justice.

All

What on earth are you raving about. Its the blue pill at night remember.

Scout.

Exactly, well put.

Another point is that the us legal system found that it was unconstitutional to try the two american citizens captured in afghanistan in a military tribunal. They have been tried in a civil court. If it is OK for them why not for an Australian citizen?

sunisle: Call me ignorant, see me as beyond redemption, see me as a non-learner and non-reader. Say I have a mind-set [unlike you?], chide me because I do not answer questions. Slate me because I have a hate mantra.Rubbish me because I am not open to facts [That's your facts - no doubt]
All this is fine because what others think of me is their problem, BUT you did go'beyond the pale' in accusing me of being a follower of lying, deceitful, un-trustworthy howard - That REALLY hurt:-)
Bet you have a picture of ben-laden, or a laden bin, over your pretty bed and/or you are a pagan islamic. numbat

Steve, please forgive All for the pill slip-up. One's head tends to become foggy whilst watching Fox News.

All,

I tend to avoid posting while really drunk. I suggest you do the same.

Your last rant was about as incoherent as Bush so forgive me if I've misinterpreted it...

The Left wasting tax dollars?

When was the last time a leftist government blew 235 Billion tax dollars on a war designed to make a small handfull of people richer?

The Left trying to become richer?

Well, I suppose we all are. But you're forgetting how rich cirtain corporations are getting because of this war. Unless, of course, Haliburton is run by a Board of pot-smoking, tree-hugging hippies. But considering Mr Dick "Head" Cheney is the former CEO of Haliburton (suprise, surprise), I'd seriously doubt that.

Thank you for demonstrating the ignorance and narrow-mindedness of the Conservative mind.

So, to summarise my response in the same context as your last post: -

Purple monkey dishwashers eat muffled spray cord book findings if people smell inherantly sound particles damage fire floors to our watchful feet antagonising flying wobbly-gongs and gobble-dee-gooks. But only when they do...

I think that says it all. Don't you?

No Mr Man, you could have said a bit more, but Thanks for the compliment .

Redneck:
You're way of the mark calling me a trendy 'left wing intellectual'. I've supported Howard perpetually and consider myself a moderate conservative but i will not and cannot support the rule of law being crushed and a fellow citizen being judged by a pack of idiots. It is blokes like you that give conservatives/ the right wing voters a bad wrap.

Sunisle:
I still support Howard despite the treatment of Hicks which is wrong. However my support is based on considered and qualified thought which is not inflexible nor nonsensical like Realists. The 'lies' Howard has told are more the product of semantics. Invading Iraq was wrong but only because it should have been Iran. The 'children overboard' saga counts little because children still ended up almost drowning in the ocean-whether they were thrown or their parents sabotaged their boat is irrelevant. Finally the AWB scandal boils down to 'them or us'- The French, Germans, Americans, British all had fingers in the pie.

wre: You could be seen as an arch hypocrite by STILL voting for a ma - err a conniving politician who you admitted has lied to you.
Sorry in light of this your arguments are not valid at all. numbat

Numbat. I do not concede Howard has lied.

Belief is potentially dangerous, it can justify any action or inaction and take away any personal responsibility to think and act for oneself.

Once you admit to one belief it is a short step to another.

Hitler was a catholic, but it is that his people were prepared to believe, not question and prove.

To Mr WRE

You must be a pretty odd "right wing" person if you do not have the wit to figure out that we are in a war situation, and that you are displaying sympathy with the enemy. Supporting traitor Hicks is characteristic of an anti everything trendy lefty. It is not indicative of a person who is intelligently right of centre.

You say that you have a legal background. Does it worry you that the law and justice and now considered two separate entities? The old saying that "justice must not just be done, it must be seen to be done" applies to Hicks.

You mentioned the movie "Dirty Harry" before, have you ever heard of another topical movie "Death Wish" starring Charles Bronson? By the late seventies, Americans were so disgusted at the ineffectiveness of their own legal system, that when Hollywood released "Death Wish" it caused a sensation. The hero of the movie was a victim of violent crime who could not obtain justuce. So he spent the entire movie hunting down and then gunning down muggers and rapists. Audiences in the US were so affected, that they actually clapped and cheered whenever Charles Bronson murdered another violent criminal. The movie was such a success that it spawned no less than four sequels.

The movie was reflecting a deeply held conviction that the law was more concerned with protecting the rights of criminals than protecting the community.

When Bernard Goetz, "The Subway Vigilante" copied Bronson's on screen behaviour and gunned down 4 muggers on a NY subway train, he bacame such a hero that the NY legal system was unable to charge him with murder. The NY legal system knew that no jury would have found him guilty.

Most people are interested in justice, and the law is supposed to be the handmaiden of that. If the law no longer serves that concept then "legal people" such as yourself can hardly complain if the public turns Nelson's famous "blind eye" to any breaches of legal principle that obtain their desired outcome.

Leigh

Bob Ellis has penned more than one book. He is a social commentator who has made many important contributions.
For your information The 7.30 Report’s Kerry O’Brien made a pertinent remark last week (it’s easy to find the transcript!).
O’Brien said: “Almost as telling as this morning's headlines were the lurid newspaper pictures of former AWB executive Trevor Flugge and AWB senior manager Michael Long brandishing firearms - two men handpicked by the Government to act as special advisers to Baghdad in the wake of the Iraq war”.
A picture of traitor David Hicks bearing arms has featured in mainstream media too!
Soon after his introduction, O’Brien interviewed Foreign Minister Alexander Downer who was clearly in damage control.

Regards etc.

Gin & Tonic

It shows that pictures do not tell all, the interpretation, is in the mind of the viewer!

Wre, Howards pants are on fire, and they have been for years. it doesnt really matter what you are prepared to concede, Howard is a LIAR, LIAR, LIAR.

Disclaimer - I am an avowed Lefty. My interpretation of Lefty in today's Australia, a belief in compassion and equality, both of which seem to be missing in the anti-David Hicks diatrides that I have read in the previous postings. Can I ask - what happened to innocent until proven guilty? What happened to trial by jury and not media? What happened to basic humanity that says that a suspect must be tried quickly and fairly? What happened to a belief that noone has the right to freedom and justice is everyone's right? Australians have always been apathetic but pig ignorance is something that I associate with the majority of Americans who do not have access to world views and gain their knowledge through biased and fettered news outlets. Can I suggest that all those that are so completely convinced that David Hicks is guilty/going to get a fair (military) trial log on to the fair go for David website.....digest and THINK?

I am relieved The ABC is still prepared to challenge mainstream media and our politicians. Thank you Aunty for tonight's piece on David Hicks.

To Mr Disgusted.

You are a firm believer in Equality, are you? Well, mate, here is some examples of inequality in Australian society that you can focus on.

White people must buy fishing licences in NSW, aboriginal descended people do not.

Aboriginal people have their own medical and dental clinics exclusively for people of their on race.

Aboriginal people may kill dugong, other races may not.

Aboriginal descended people get special government scholarships denied other races.

Aboriginal descended people get preferentiual treatment by courts and preferential treatment in prison accomodation.

Job advertisments for aboriginal organisations pointedly exclude non aboriginals.

There, that's enough for starters. Now, let's see you attack these obvious manifestations of racism and inequality, with exactly the same gusto that you exhibit when defending traitors like Hicks. If you dare to defend these racist and unequal government policies by submitting reasoned argumants why these particular instances of racism and inequality are justified, then you just crossed the Rubicon.

Ahhh. Moral quandaries. Which is it to be, Disgusted? The devil or the deep blue sea?

Redneck, what depths will you sink to? Aboriginals certainly get preferential treatmant re: prison accomadation, i will grant you that. I suspect they would be happy to surrender that 'privilige'.
Hick's a traitor. I believe treasons a crime, i look forward to his trial. Call me whacky, but i still believe in innocent until proven guilty.

Redneck will blabber on until he's satisfied he's had the last word.

He is defending the indefensible but you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Especially one who obviously watches too much 'Today Tonight & ACA'. Sensationalism appeals to the vigilantes and oafs in society who have no interest in, nor understanding of just how important it is for people to be afforded procedural fairness.

His argument equates to that of a death penalty advocate who dismisses the one innocent man executed out of every one hundred as 'neccessary'. In my book IF Hicks is guilty the keys should be thrown away, but I would much rather sleep at night without any doubt that a fellow countrymen hadn't got the wrong end of the stick.

Redneck can't understand the basic concept of 'evidence' obviously. So I'm not going to bother to explain the complex concepts of 'subject jurisdiction', 'extra territoriality', 'the 5th amendment' and the possibilty that Guantanamo Bay breaches Hick's right under the Geneva Convention and/or the American, Australian Constitutions, British common law.

Thank you wre for your reference to The Geneva Convention. I am grateful Australia hasn't been completely dumbed down.

Redneck by name, redneck by inclination. I thought this was a site to talk about David Hicks. When you can gather your scatter-gun thoughts and concentrate on the problem at hand - i.e. the lack of democratic justice to this young man - perhaps your comments will be taken seriously.

G&T and Disgusted:

As was intimated in 'Good Night & Good Luck' television is being used to 'dumb down' and influence society so much so that the curiosity and questioning of the community in regards to Hicks can be satisfied by showing a picture of him holding a rocket launcher.

How Redneck can possibly keep a straight face while asserting that it is quite ok for Hicks to be neither classified a POW nor a civilian 'terrorist' and therefore not entitled to justice is beyond me. If it wasn't such a disturbing proposition it would be funny! But Redneck typifies the ignoramuses that are happy for a fellow citizen to be tried by Ray Martin and Mike Munro.

The Taliban has exactly the same regard for our soldiers as redneck has for the Taliban- they classify them not as POW's but as infidels. I take it Mr. Redneck when an Aussie is captured and beheaded you'll maintain the war on terror renders him an 'enemy combatant' (or whatever that is) too? FYI 'enemy combatant' was first dismissed by the US Supreme Court as an illegitimate classification when NAZI spys landed on Rhode Island during WWII.

Thanks WRE for flying the flag for rational conservatism on OLO. What bothers me about folk like redneck is that while they pose as heroic race crusaders, their political position is that of scared little babies ready to chuck out the rule of law at the slightest threat to their well-being. 'Terrorists? Please don't let them bomb my place! I'll do anything!'

Cowards.

KRS 1 Worried about terrorists makes us cowards - what totally warped thinking. Love for our families, love for our freedom loving nation, love for our present way of life maybe these things make us anti-terrorists.
KRS 1 Are you related to Neville Chamberlain a wartime PM of Britain who appeased the stinking nazis. Maybe he thought that those who worried about Herr Hitler [yes he called him that] were cowards or worrywarts.
To think that my taxes "educated?" someone like you. numbat

Numbat-

You bet I'm worried about our freedom-loving nation. That's why I'll continue defending its freedoms from people like you. I know you're scared, Numbat- terrorism is very, very scary. Osama is scary. And it's okay to be a little bit scared, but you should try and bear in mind that statistically speaking you're about as likely to die from terrorism as you are from a shark attack.

As for how standing up for Hicks equates to appeasing Hitler- I'll leave advanced logic like that to 'educated' people like yourself.

Numbat and Redneck,

Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.

KRS 1 (and wre),

Good points.

Ironic isn't it. By condoning the government's actions here, Numbat and Redneck are actually condoning the very same thing happening to them. Numbat and Redneck may not be affliliated with any terrorist organisations but that's not going to mean much once Australia gets it's "Patriot" Act and they (Redneck/Numbat) send a "suspicious" email to a friend that our Federal Police interpret as a possible threat...then comes the anti-terror legislation (but I'll leave that alone for now). Sure, the chances of that happening may be miniscule, but it's the principal of it. Yes, those pesky principals that Redneck dosen't like are, again - ironically, protecting him.

Their warped way of thinking sets a precedence for governments to do whatever the hell they please. Imagine what an oppressive dictatorship this world would be if all governments shared Redneck's views. I believe George Orwell wrote a book about it.

The analogy to Hitler is interesting; Germany invaded and attacked other countries....the US, Israel and followers are far more akin to Nazi Germany..THEY, not Arabs or Muslims, have invaded,occupied, stolen land and natural resourses and killed hundreds of thousands of human beings.

The US and Israel have a very deep similarity with Hitler's Germany. However, their propaganda machines leave Hitler's way behind.

You must be getting rattled if you stop addressing your posts to me and instead look for support among your like minded cronies.

David Hicks can hardly be given a fair trial for his obvious treason because our laws have become so ineffective that they no longer recognise treason as a crime. According to Australian law, this traitor is free to live in Australia at taxpayer expense just as his Egyptian friend is now doing. Fortunately, he was captured by the Yanks and he is being tried under martial law as an illegal combatant. He is not a POW, because he did not wear a uniform, and this fact is critical when assessing whether a combatant receives POW status. As an illegal combatant, the Yanks can keep Hicks incarcerated for as long as hostilities persist.

You talk about the sanctity of the law, but you refuse to recognise that the Americans do have a legal point. If this is not so, then the US Supreme Court can either order the release of all detainees, or demand that civil charges be laid. But the US Supreme Court is very unlikely to get involved in that for two reasons. The first is that the US Supreme Court would be meddling in the legal jurisdiction of the military, which it is very loath to do. The second, is that the Supreme Court knows that the American people are right behind their President when it comes to the treatment of terrorists at Guantanamo Bay. If the Supreme Court intervened on behalf of the terrorists, it would create such a political furore that the US public might feel compelled to change their laws to reduce the powers of their own Supreme Court.

The key concept here is what the US (and Australian) public consider is justice. The legal fraternity sees nothing wrong when it’s own members seek creative interpretations of the law when defending their clients from justice, so they can hardly complain when the political servants of the public do exactly the same thing when ensuring that the public's concept of justice is done.

Redneck:

I'm not rattled by you-just dumbfounded.

Your simplistic argument is so easily diagnosed as one that is pulling 'the cart before the horse'. How can somebody be guilty if never tried? How can somebody be tried if the evidence against them is not disclosed? Whatever happened to the separation of powers? Do you understand the different roles designated by democracy to the executive, legislature and judiciary? Obviously not-it is not the executives job to make the rules up as it goes nor to enforce the rules without judicial sanction. Turning your nose up at the basics is the beginning of the end.

As for your arguments about the Geneva Convention- I think they may be limited by your experiences as a cook in the ADF. If wearing a uniform is truly the primary test as to whether a captive is a POW, what about covert operations in which no uniforms or insignia are worn? Additionally insurgents in Iraq are caught and interrogated as POW's as were the Viet Cong despite the fact they were largely without conventional uniforms.

It's interesting that Habib has returned to Australia and not been charged-just as 12 British citizens were returned to England and not charged. The British have more extensive laws in this area than we do yet Scotland Yard in all its wisdom did not lay charges. Why do you think this was- that's right Mr Redneck thinks he's a better law maker, judge, jury and executioner than Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, Marcus Aurelius, Hobbes, Mill, Disraeli, Lincoln.

Lets all make a pact to ignore Redneck. Lets not respond directly to his inane ravings. Let us simply post our own views concerning the lead articles.I fear we are encouraging him. Mind you Wre, i am glad you have picked up that he was a cook in the ADF.

Good point hedgehog - there is no point fuelling the flames.
But I do wonder if REDNECK ever spat in the broth.

"Lets all make a pact to ignore Redneck."

I'm in.

I don't really see much point in arguing with someone who is in obvious need of psycological help from Veterans Affairs. I guess trying to explain to Redneck the insanity of his views would be like trying to convince a schizophrenic that no one's out to get them.

We should just let him have his say and leave it at that.

Mr.Man?: Rubbish and abuse redneck then of course you do have to answer his arguements eh? What a gutless small minded, closed minded, small brain pack of twits, like a pack of wolves. We agree lets turn on the one who dares disagree with us noble, all-knowing intelectuals. What mind blowing arrogance,but of course you see
yourselves as the fonts of all wisdom eh? Pathetic twits. numbat

Minister Downer is a $300 million joke.

To Mr Plantagent.

Enemy captives do not need to be tried. They can be incarcerated until hostilities cease. Acknowledge that point as legally right or legally wrong. People caught on a battlefield who are not wearing uniforms universally recognised as those of legally recognised governments under whom they fought, are not recognised as POW’s under the Geneva Convention. Acknowledge that point as being legally right or legally wrong.

Provided the Americans follow their own laws and keep Hicks and his mates in Guantanamo Bay, they are obeying the laws of United States. If that is not the case, then the US High Court must intervene. But it won’t. Legally, the Yanks have got you.

The argument that you and all the other American haters put forth is a moral one. But there are two moral principles at stake here, not one.

Your mob claim that terrorists must either be considered POW’s or be tried as criminals. You do have a point there because prior to the War of Terror, that has always been the case. But governments who fight a modern war using the tactics of the last one are doomed to fail, and the Americans (who were the first to even propose that POW’s should not be considered criminals) have changed their tactics to suite their new enemy. They rightfully will not consider terrorists based in lawless foreign countries who flit around the globe on international airliners, and who commit mass murder and then commit suicide, as mere criminals. They are obviously correct. The US is also correct to refuse them POW status. If US laws do not yet recognise that essential truth, then in time they will.

The yanks created a law several years ago by which anyone, who had "recently" arrived in USA, could be sent back to their home country if they committed a crime - even as small as not paying driving fines.
The Guantanamo Bay is an area rented from Cuba, so maybe it can't be described as USA property, so maybe "recently arrived'" criminals can't be deported.
The yanks can twist the law and the language in any way they want, so that young man who was found in area where the locals were trying to resist the Russians certainly has a dim future.
When and where did he marry? His wife has an Islamic name - did he meet her in Afghanistan?

Tregenna