It’s fortunate that Mr. Kevin lives in Australia where the ‘authorities’ are too weak to require him to explain his scurrilous claim that they “will do their best to make life as unpleasant as possible for the 43 who made it here”.

Despite that tired old Refugee Convention of 1951, and the ‘obligations’ Mr. Kevin mentions, the Australian Government is doing what it is entitled to do and expected to do by the electorate. And, yes, the Indonesian government will probably cooperate with Australia to ensure that it doesn’t happen again. Hooray!

Instead of crying all over the place about 43 “refugees” who scuttled out of their country, leaving the rest of the population to suffer whatever it is they are supposed to be suffering, Mr. Kevin and his comrades should be trying to use the cooperation with Indonesia to see what can be done for those Papuans who don’t have the luxury of flight – in their own country.

Tolerating a few lucky asylum seekers who rock up on our shores will not solve the world’s problems. People who constantly whinge about Australia’s border protection policy are crying crocodile tears. What about the majority of people in countries where there are claims of persecution – the ones who cannot run off to Australia or some other country

Some facts about 'West Papuans' or Irian Jayan"

Although as pointed out they are Indonesian nationals, they are culturaly 'melanesian', cousins to people of Papuan New Guinea, the Solomons etc,

The history of the Indonesian 'invasion' of Dutch New Guinea, in the 1960's, reads remarkably like that of the 'take-over' of East Timor.

Given that the western section of the island of New Guinea has mineral deposits equal if not larger that that of PNG, (Porgera, Ok Tedi, Boungainville etc), it is a prize that any nation/corporation would envy.

The transmigration of Javanese into West Irian which started in the 1970s has escalated so that now Javanese numbers are on a par with the Melanesian inhaitants. The number of Indonesian military is quite extraordinary.

Similar in history to many nations invaded by others.

Along with East Timor, Aceh and other smaller nations swallowed by larger more dominant nations, West Irian needs support to gain some form of autonomy, even statehood to protect its natural wealth from being exploited as we saw happen in PNG. (OK Tedi, Boungainville).

Leigh-

1. How is such a claim in any way 'scurrilous'? That the Howard government has gone out of its way to make life for asylum seekers as unpleasant as possible should be blindingly obvious to all but the most blinkered idealogues. Whether or not they are right to do so is a different question altogether.

2. The 'electorate' doesn't have the first idea about refugees. Nor, by and large, do they care. It's easy for the government to throw up its hands and say 'hey, we're only behaving execrably because the voters tell us too', but in reality there's nothing stopping them fulfilling their obligations.

3. I'd take a guess that in other forums Leigh would be proudly trumpeting the Howard governments courage and moral fortitude during the East Timor intervention. Well guess what? This is the same. Most estimates are a 100,000 West Papuans killed by Indonesian security forces since occupation (that's what they're 'supposed to be suffering'). So ditch the crocodile tears for those who couldn't make it out if you can't even be bothered doing some background research.

4. Tolerating asylum seekers won't solve all the world's problems? Really? Geez, thanks for the heads-up, Leigh. Anyway, the people who 'whinge' about border protection are the same people concerned about the suffering of people in countries where there are claims of persecution. Most of us would like to see an end to the Indonesian occupation of West Papua and an end to gutless Australian appeasement of Indonesia. Your 'there are hypothetical people suffering in other countries, so we shouldn't help the people who are suffering right here, right now' argument is, frankly, stupid.

Leigh I really have to correct a few of the false assumptions you've made in your post. I'm undoubtedly right of the centre in most of my views so pleae don't leap on me as a 'bleeding heart lefty' but I think you are so far right that sometimes you lose objectivity.

The West Papuans are an abused, repressed and despondent people. There are no two ways about that. They are as 'Indonesian' as you and I are. In fact they are as culturally, physically and historically different to the Javanese as the Timorese are. Hence they are not queue jumpers as such. For all we know the West Papuan equivalent of Xanana Gusmao may be amongst them- we definitely know there are prominent independence leaders amongst the 50 odd.

Australia's largest mistake is that we continue to recognise West Papua as 'part' of Indonesia- I think this issue should have been tackled simultaneously with East Timor. The Sukarno era territorial boundaries of Indonesia are neither legitimate nor pragmatic. People forget if he'd had his way Malaysia would have been 'Indonesia' too.

Jakarta will never passively allow the independence of West Papua. However Australia has the moral responsibilty to pressure Jakarta to allow West Papua to be 'all but' independent. If this involves granting West Papuans asylum then so be it.

Dare I mention the "Illegals" word, used to great advantage and affect in recent history.

Are the ejaculatte' waiting for Howard to drop his hanky??

What a joke.

Your assumptions and analysis of the situation are floored and this takes the focus off your campaign.

I feel we should have sympathy for these people, but we are living in an age where in our lifetime some Pacific Islands may vanish due to rising water, combined with the oppressed nature of our neighbours to the north, we very quickly can degradate our society.

Multiculturalism has had its recent ups and downs in Australia and accepting refugees in Australia is something we must be very careful about.

To make you out there feel better for refugees, for every boat stopped, scores get through anyway. Just ask the coastguard.

Australia's refugees are just like indonesia and drugs, in a drug mecca if you do not keep the hard line you are inviting it, and without fear of consequences people in those circumstances will not question the decision.

I dont want Indonesians, Papuans and the like similar to the US and Cuba. If you run the gauntlet and make the shore you get the status.
What will that encourage.

Be fair and reasonable everyone, we need to at least check these people, check the situation before jumping the gun. What about quarantine etc? i would rather a chrissy island disease outbreak than a Weipa one, for instance.

Immigration Bars Christmas Island Citizens From Public Beaches

The Department of Immigration will lock Australian citizens out from beaches on Christmas Island as part of the Australian Government's $320 million mega-detention centre under construction on the remote Australian outpost.

Australia Day 2006 will be the last day Aussies on Christmas Island will possibly have left to wave the flag and enjoy a barbecue on some of the best beaches available to them.

In a meeting with Christmas Island community representatives, DIMIA announced that gates locking out the community from beaches, public recreation areas and vital tourist sites would be installed across roads.

"Community representatives at the meeting were particularly concerned that DIMIA had failed to raise the issue with the community and appeared to be totally uninterested in any adverse impact the gates would have on the community or tourist access to the area. The Department representatives were unmoved by community concern even though they acknowledged that no particular attempt had been made to make the community aware of their plans." (From Page 8, "The Islander", issue #346, December 2005)

Christmas Island Shire President Gordon Thomson arrived back on the Island from leave this week amid the storm over the arrival of the 43 West Papuan refugees who were sent there last week and said, "Christmas Islanders do not want to be forced into any restrictive gulag lifestyle."

Perth-based Refugee Advocate Mrs Kaye Bernard who has visited Christmas Island is calling on the Prime Minister and the Immigration Minister to visit the Island and "get some first-hand knowledge of the unAustralian impact offshore detention is having on Australian citizens who are incredibly now being locked out of beaches."

The Christmas Island Community intends to take the "fight against DIMIA for the beaches" up with the Members of the Joint Standing Committee on the National Capital and External Territories who will be visiting next week and holding a public hearing on Christmas Island soon.

Members to come on the visit are: Senator Lightfoot (Chairperson), Senator Crossin, Senator Stott Despoja, Senator Carr, Senator Joyce, House of Representatives members Causley, Secker and Snowdon.

Realist-

US/Cuba is an innacurate analogy. Cuba/haiti would be more accurate. Cubans are automatically awarded refugee status if they manage to set foot on US soil, and there are GOP calls to relax the law further. This is because accepting Cubans as refugees is a slap in the face to Castro. The Cuban situation and the Papuan situation here have broad political ramifications. Accepting these Papuans as genuine refugees would send a direct, resounding message that Australia is no longer prepared to accept Indonesian brutality in West Papua (which would ideally lead to an end to a conflict and an end to the asylum seekers). As long as we tolerate this kind of thing from Indonesia we've got a moral responsibility to accept their refugees.

And no-one is suggesting we let them in without screening them first.

KRS1

1.The remarks were scurrilous, so I used the word scurrilous.
2.You could be right, but that makes no difference to the situation.
3.Guess away
4.Congratulations on the sarcasm. You rival even me. I disagree on ‘same people’. I also disagree that I’m stupid.

Try posting your own opinions of contributed articles and don’t lurk waiting to vent your spleen on people with different opinions. We are allowed 2 posts only on the same subject in 24 hours.

WRE,

Your don’t, really, but I accept your need to. I wish you had told me what assumptions I made. I’ve re-read my post, and I don’t see any – just my opinion and comments. Perhaps you could put me straight on this when you answer the following question:

I am familiar with the make up of the W.Papuan people, but I can’t see what that has to do with ‘queue jumping/jumpers’? I didn’t mention that, but if we must use the term, it applies to anyone trying to enter Australia with correct documentation, in defiance of Australia’s official refugee policy.

I note your opinions on what you think should be done in West Papua. There’s no point in responding to your comment on my politics or objectivity. You have already made up your mind about that.

Unfortunately on checking email this morning, I was not appointed Minister for Immigration or even parliamentary secretary for that matter. As I'm not a politician and never stood for a seat(love that phrase) that's one reason.

The other is that in this portfolio, I'd be biased towards certain countries and that is not considered appropriate anymore.

I believe that Australia has a place in its heart for its cousin, New Zealand, and a special, deep feeling towards its ex-protectorate (Australian-administered UN trusteeship) Papua New Guinea. I don't believe in evenhandedness in intake for all countries of the world as we have much more in common with papuans on both sides than with so many other peoples at present.

For example, across the military line in the dirt there, is PNG. They have a short history of constitutional monarchy and (an admittedly dysfunctional) multi-party parliamentary democracy rather than a longterm, hidebound, unelected, religious council that simply shouts slogans.

PNG's in the Commonwealth and though we dont "protect" them anymore of course, we look after them. We spend $240m every single year maybe more, accounting for 20% of national budget. If they were attacked, we'd defend like a shot - we owe them. We might be uncouth and ask them to check shoes on arrival but we still really thank them from our hearts.

People there have a unique place in our history and we in theirs. So that intangible border that divides "Asia" or Indonesia, from "Melanesia" or PNG, is there of course but it doesn't diminish our emotions towards papuans on either side. I can't speak for specific people and their silence over west papua in 1963-69.

So current Realist or Liberal Internationalist foreign policy theories aside, in terms of those refugees I'd unfortunately discriminate against many, many other countries first and get them over here quick smart. I'd prefer Papuans and Kiwis, and Cook Islanders for that matter, to hold a special place up the top of our "waiting list". Yes, along with londoners, the crazy scots and that mob of noisy oirish who brought us real beer.

Leigh you made the following assumptions in your post:

(a) That the 43 West Papuans aren't legitimate refugees;
(b) That the West Papuans are self serving and have "scuttled out of their country leaving the others to suffer."
(c)That the electorate doesn't differentiate bewteen the Papuans and other boat people.
(d)That the Indonesian authorities have a sovereign right over West Papua and therefore should impede the movements of West Papuans.

All of the above assumptions are wrong.

The West Papuans have escaped from a country illegally annexed by a foreign state. These people have come to Australia in the hope that the publicity they generate may force the Australian government to review the West Papuan plight. They believe the electorate may remember the small matter of WWII in which they were instrumental in the defence of Australian shores.

Furthermore Leigh, if Australia was invaded tomorrow and you swam your way to NZ would you claim to be an Aussie or a member of the invading nationality? Is that a simple enough analogy for you to figure out the significance of West Papuan/ Indonesian cultural differentiation? It was people like you during the Hanson years that made the right look like an uneducated red neck rabble.

These asylum seekers are barbaric Papuan separatists, the same kind of people who murdered two American schoolteachers in cold-blood in 2002. These barbaric thugs made this journey as method of dirty propaganda against Indonesia.

The truth is Indonesians treat Papuans very well. One Papuan is a cabinet minister (Freddy Numberi), all Papuan governors and district chiefs are native Papuans, there are famous Papuan artists in Jakarta (Edo Kondologit), not to mention Indonesia subsidise that backward province for Rp 1 trillion each year.

Let me made it clear for some Australians who stupidly think they can play around with Indonesia's territorial integrity in Papua province. We Indonesians will fight you to the death, 60% of Papua's inhabitants are transmigrants. They will make any Australian invaders choke with blood if you dare come.

It won't be like East Timor, which was let go by President Habibie since we can no longer afford the billions of rupiah of subsidies each year for that worthless piece of real estate.

@ wre:

Read-up first abt West Papua before talking nonsense, otherwise you'll look like a fool.

Papuans voted unanimously to join Indonesia in a UN referendum in 1969. This decision is endorsed by UN General Assembly Resolution XXIV.

The referendum itself was supervised by the UN, according to the New York Agreement of 1963 between Republic of Indonesia and Kingdom of Netherlands, legalised as UN Resolution 2504.

Papua's is LEGALLY and UNDENIABLY an integral and inseparable part of Republic of Indonesia according to two UN resolutions. In comparison, Australia is Aboriginal land illegally annexed by Britain using the illegal "terra nullis" concept which has been considered as illegal by the Mabo Ruling of 1995. An illegally-established country like Australia trying to tell others what is legal is like Hitler complaining about anti-Semitism.

On another tangent, but still on topic, much of remote Australia's shores rely on the vigilance of Indigenous people. These refugees landed on the shores of Aboriginal land at tip of Cape York.

The irony in contact between West Papuans and this nation’s Indigenous people goes back thousands of years. One oppressed people land on the shores of another.

West Papuans are a colonised Indigenous people has rendered West Papuans 'rightless' under the rule of Indonesia and these refugees were representatives of the OPM West Papuan Liberation movement and have every right to claim political asylum. The 1951 Refugee Convention defines 'refugee' as a person with well-founded fear of persecution due to his or her race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership of a particular social group (Article 1A(2)).

Tony Kevin raises a very important question about our nation’s hypocrisy in regards to assisting those whose human and political rights remain under constant persecution by invaders (in this case Indonesia).

We commit troops to Iraq but not more than a stones throw from our own shores are people whose cry for independence and UN intervention goes unheard. More W.Parpuans will arrive and it will surely test DIMIA, Australian Federal Police and Australian Secret Intelligence Services to coordinate a political solution that fits with the existing 'pacific solution' framework.

All,
*Its pointless debating with Leigh, every post he loads up repeats his last piece of didactic excreta. OLO should reconsider letting these types on this site, they have nothing constructive to contribute beyond their hate for everyone and everything.

Maaf? PTBI, I think you have missed the point of 'debate', its not quite the same word here as ABUSE. Don't be a troll - no one wants to invade you, ya big silly. Check out your own facts about Australia first. Selamat jalan.

Pround to be an Indo,

You are so stereotypical Indo its not funny.

A talking advertisement for the self centred parasites that destroy everything, as life is cheap isnt it?

It is good to have an opposing view though. I totally agreee with you on your legalities, esp with Australian aborigines and West Papua being part of Indonesia, but i am going to pull you up on 2 things:

Firstly, saying timor is a worthless piece of real estate is silly. They have wonderful natural resources i wont even begin to mention. Oil being one.

Apart from the fact you think like an indonesian (it is no value to you so who cares destroy it), your third world mentality is showing. Violence is the way.

Over here we have it good, and our outlook as Australians mean we have a natural urge to assist others, whatever country. When you become a first world country like this, and you have some respect for others, you will understand.

And as for inviting the Aussies to take on Indonesia. You have a big army, but as one Aussie soldier who went to timor told me. "I could smash 5 with each hand they are poorly trained, they have no heart and they need our assistance with training on land as they are hopeless"

I am not trying to cause conflict, but like most with your naivity, you make outlandish claims.

Your country comes here every day and rapes our seas of fish, your own people every day try to escape and we are left with boatloads of illegal people. We help you in so many ways, but like the ungrateful that you are, you would turn on us like a mongrel dog.

Thanks.....Mate.

Proud to be Indonesian

What about the 1.1 Trillion Rupiah Indonesia gets each year in Aid from Australia. What about the 7.1 Trillion Rupiah we have given for reconstruction after the Tsunami.

If there was a conflict with Indonesia we would not need to invade we would just turn our backs on a country that would tear itself apart. Indonesia's colonial past left it with many problems, Sukarno and Suharto kept things together via the police and military.

If an Australian Govt wanted to get Indonesia out of West Papua it would not do it by military means, it would be accomplished by economic means.

No point quoting UN resolutions, we know our Govt only takes notice of them when they suit their own ends.

The arguement has been put about on peoples apparent lack of concerns about those Papuans - or any one else who might fall into the category of asylum seeker - who dont have the resources to escape and it is a bit lame; it's a bit like that dumb arguemnt thatis often put up that any one conercerned with Van Nguyen hanging, for example, should rightly be pre-occupied with every incident of capital punishment that goes on around the globe - and if your not you're a hypocrit.

Well most peole have a life to live and will be concerned about what they see, what's immediate and what they might reasonably devote some time to - Don Quixote most of us ain't.

Tony Kevin is right authorities will be annoyed - the defection of the Papuans places them in the invidious position of confronting the truth about the Indonesian regime - they will employ the best of those schooled in equivocation to talk their way out of a sticky situation.

Their success also brings back into focus the stupid means by which we process these people, the un warranted expense and the unwarranted trauma it inflicts on people - using only a mercenary assesmnet our DIMIA processes are so innefficient they should be adandoned on those grounds alone.

Pragmatism will prevail and I suspect the Papuans - refugees or not will be returned. And many white Australians will be happy. And thats all that counts . Isn't it?

Proud to be Indonesian- Thankyou for you invitation to posters to do some research. I'm sure wre is itching to reply to you but i'll beat him to it...

West Papua was discovered by a Spaniard in 1545. It was inhabited by a people of negritos/ melanesian ancestory and not by mongloids as what is now Java was. There are no cultural or linguistic similarities yet Sukarno chose to annex the country.

Armed conflict broke out in West Papua in 1962 when the Dutch denied that Sukarno had any legitimate claim to West Papua. In an attempt to resolve the situation the UN formed UNTEA under the New York Agreement. Indonesia seized the administration of UNTEA and in 1969 held a 'vote' of 1025 people under the supervision of the TNI. The UN representatives sent to observe the 'vote' reported in writing "serious violations of the New York agreement" by Indonesia. Unfortunately the world was too wrapped up in Vietnam to resist Indonesias violent occupation.

The Freeport mine itself is worth $USD40 billion of which Indonesia gains 20% of the profits. Foreign mining companies gain the rest. The Indonesian treasury itself reports that the timber, oil and minerals in West Papua form the bulk of its foreign exchange earnings. You maintain 'West Papuans are treated very well by Indonesia'. Of the 27 provinces of Indonesia West Papua has the poorest health standards and lowest litteracy levels.

Most observers hold the TNI responsible for the murder of those teachers in 2002, just as most hold the TNI responsible for the murder of 5 journalists in East Timor in 1974. As for your observations regarding Terra nullius, if the same principle was invoked by Indonesian law, it would bring the very legitimacy of the entire Indonesian state into question as well. I am not a war monger as you appear to be, but most observers consider the TNI an embarrassment and the Kopassus more inclined to murdering civilians than taking on the SAS.

anyone want to bet 'proud to be indonesian' works at the indonesian consulate?

a press release if i ever heard one.

In relation to these West Papuans that every commenter seems to have lost sight of recently:

Does no one think that it is ironic and stupid of the Howard government to ship a bunch of West Papuans to an island about 200 km directly south of Jakarta (the capital of Indonesia)?

What do we Australians expect the TNI to do with such a red flag flying in the face of such a stupid act? Sit on their bums and do nothing?

Does anyone think that these West Papuans are safe on Christmas Island? Does our government think that the guards they employ to keep people in will keep TNI out?

If all of the West Papuans were shot, in a raid by some unknown people, would our or the Indonesian government own up to it being the TNI?

LinM

I think the simply solution for both nations is to allow an Australian migrant centre to open up in the area on the basis of there being demand. This way people who want out can do so safely and with grace and dignity and the dilemma facing the improved relations between Indonesia and Australia can be futher improved by acceptance by both sides there is just some people who cannot tolerate Islamic cultures being forced on them.

There should be no reason to allow these boat trips. We are not at war with Indonesia. We don't know if they want to stay here as refugees or just want to get to PNG. I heard this was the destination but was impossible with border patrol and mountains.

Tony, You lost me with the assertions that "Much of the border authorities’ rage will come from their having been so comprehensively outwitted by West Papuans in an outrigger canoe."

Luck would have played a much greater hand than any forward planning of the 43 refugees. To elevate their standing by positioning the Federal government in a 'keystone cops' role does little more than acknowledge your bias politically.

I believe that they should be allowed to stay. Not to be used as opportunistic fodder for anti-Liberal sentiment but because it is the right thing to do in this case.

Having said that, I also recognise the need for border security and it is the balance between humanitarian assistance and border maintenance that is a very difficult line to draw.

The 'let everyone in, anytime they choose' ideology falls far short of the reality of a world where there are many who would take advantage of weakness in policy and enforcement.

"Proud to be Indonesian", you must be kidding.

Preliminary reports by Indonesian police indicated that it was the Indonesian Military who killed the teachers near the Freeport Mine.

But of course the police were directed not to continue with that line of investigation.

Telephone intercepts by Australian intelligence indicate that the military were involved.

If anyone wants to look past the 'official' line you can jump to:

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/asiapac/programs/s1548865.htm

By the way, some of us are old enough to remember the Konfrontasi and the war of aggression waged by Indonesia, in which it claimed the right to Borneo. Not to mention the invasion of East Timor.

And the fact that Indonesians were educated in the 1950s and 1960s to believe that the north of the Australian mainland was territory that was rightfully Indonesian.

WRE,

As I thought, you confuse assumptions with opinions. I was amazed by your initial restraint – last time you addressed me individually you called me a terrorist – but you couldn’t hold out, could you. I am now part of a “red necked rabble”. There was not a One Nation candidate in my electorate.

As for me swimming to NZ, I would be trying to defend my country. Wouldn’t you?

My old mate, Ranier,

I irritate you because I dare not to toe your line. There’s no point in ‘debating’ with you, either. So it boils down to this – I should be banned because I do exactly the same as you do (express my opinion). You are the only one with anything constructive to say! I hate everyone and hate everything! I don’t bow down to King Ranier of the Deep North, eh? You have never had a thought of your own yet, old son. You are a typically left wing whinger. I don’t think you should be banned though. That’s the main difference between you and me.

PROUD TO BE INDONESIAN,

If you are a genuine Indonesian living in Indonesia, stick around. You have already noticed the anti-democratic attitude of the lefties on the site and know that you will be in for some stick. They think abusing and constant harping wins the day.

On the other hand, there are a few of us hear who will let you say what you think and perhaps learn something we won’t hear from politicians. Go easy on the fight talk, though

No this is not good stuff Tony Kevin. I object to a lot of things you have written here.

“The arrival on the Australian mainland of 43 asylum-seekers from West Papua….. is significant news for both Australian border security and Australian-Indonesian relations.”

One boat, with no hint of any others to follow as far we know. I don’t think it is that significant.

“The planners of this voyage clearly outsmarted Australian border protection authorities, who will now do their best to make life as unpleasant as possible for the 43 who made it here.”

No. I agree with Leigh that this is a scurrilous claim. Australian border protection authorities will do their best to strike the right balance between enforcing border-protection policy and the deterrence factor and treating them in a decent manner.

“Much of the border authorities’ rage will come from their having been so comprehensively outwitted by West Papuans in an outrigger canoe.”

Australian border protection authorities have not been comprehensively outwitted. How do you expect them to monitor every tiny boat? A whole fleet would have been a different story. If a procession of them now ensues, it will become embarrassing. But one tiny boat, that wouldn’t have looked at all out of place in the Torres Strait…come on, give them a break!

“All the border protection authorities’ interception strategies would have been concentrated on the (safely immigration-excised) Australian islands of the Torres Strait.”

Yes, and understandably so. So why the heavy criticism over one boat that is way out of the norm?

“Australian border security resources will now be stepped up……”

Well of course. What would you expect? I don’t understand; you seem to be levelling full-on criticism of them doing this. What?

“Would Australians tolerate such ruthless border protection techniques against our most vulnerable near neighbours”.

For goodness sake, what is in the slightest bit ruthless about it all?

The West Papuans have every right to look to Australia for protection. There is no doubt the annexation of West Papua is wrong if not legally then certianly morally.

I think the West Papuans have probably been encouraged by two fairly recent events. Firstly the liberation of East Timor. Let's not argue about the details. It's now free and getting on with it's life and if we have to help out...then as a close neioghbour then that's as it should be. But the fact is it's freedom came about because the world focus was bought to bear because of the Australian Governments pressure. That action had bi-partisan support. It is something in which all Australians take great pride.
Secondly there has been in recent years a great weakening in the authoritarian nature of the Javanese establishment. That in turn is impacting on the TNI. It's loosened grip is noticed throughout the region including by the West Papuans.

With regard to their entry to this country it is reasonable we have checks. What is unreasonable is if there is great delay. I don't think I should pre-empt the results of any enquiry. I don't know enough detail. But my sympathies lay with the West Papuans. I would expect our Parliaments to express my sentiments. I'll certianly be expressing them to my local members.

In the longer term while our Government continues with it's policy of friendship with Indonesia, and expresses such, I think it is time for us to also express our resevations about the occupation and the implantion of Javanese into the provence. For that was the impetus which led to the Independence of East Timor.

What we don't need is politicians trying to score points over the issue. As no doubt some will.

Hello Australians..

Pardon my late reply caused by the peculiar two posts a day rule in this forum.

The way some people here have misguided fantasies that Australia is somehow important or infuential in Indonesia is hilarious. The truth is, Australia is just a minor insignificant country that's very low in terms of importance to Indonesia. Australia is not a major trading partner for Indonesia (we mostly trade with Japan, Singapore, and United States). Australia is not a major source for donor funds (which mostly comes from CGI and the Paris Club). Therefore, Australia actually has no influence whatsoever on Indonesia.

Australian armed forces is also just a joke. Their history is a history of defeats. When fighting alone, Australian troops was easily beaten, like in Gallipoli and Malaya. Your so-called "victories" in New Guinea should actually be credited to Americans who won all the major battles first before leaving the starving Japanese remnants to their stooges the Australians, since the American soldiers couldn't be bothered to mop-up. In East Timor, Australian soldiers have to be transported and guided by Indonesian soldiers at their first entrance, since President Habibie had ordered our soldiers to welcome the Australians with open arms.

On the other hand, Indonesian soldiers won by themselves the war of independence against the Dutch (1945-1949), West Papuan confrontation (1962-1963) and have crushed countless violent radical Islamist, communist, separatist, and foreign-provoked rebellions.

If Australian invaders dare come to Indonesia, we 250 million Indonesians will make them pay in blood for each time their dirty feet touch Indonesian soil.

Besides, Australia is just an American stooge. President Yudhoyono is a close friend of President Bush, who viewed Indonesia as strategic ally. A stooge like Australia has no power or capability to invade other countries, especially a more important American ally, Indonesia.

@hamlet:

That is why you shouldn't read too much stuff written by Australian yellow journalists, since now you cannot differentiate myth and reality. The truth is, the FBI found that it is the barbaric uncivilised Papuan separatists who is responsible for the murders of one Indonesian teacher and two Americans. These "asylum-seekers" are the same group with these barbaric thugs. Now wonder Australian govt is moving these barbarians to Christmas Island, so they won't be able to kill civilians like their habit back home.

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel04/papuan062404.htm

@realist:

Who are you trying to fool? East Timor is the world's poorest country with no worthwhile resources. The small oil reserve you're talking about have been stolen by that "first-world country" Australia. No wonder, considering the criminal origins of this "first-world country". We Indonesians have little respect for such first-class thieves.

The only reason Indonesia took East Timor in 1975 was to crush the communist Fretilin gaining power there (1970s being the height of the Cold War). This invasion was result of lobby on Suharto by PM Whitlam and President Ford, but later, that Australia back-stabbed us in the back. We Indonesians have no respect for such back-stabbing people.

BTW there are very few Javanese transmigrants in Papua, most of them are Buginese, Makassarese, and Ambonese. They today made up 60% of Papua's population. Barbaric Papuan separatism is all about dead and has zero prospect in the future. Most native Papuans today are prosperous and proud Indonesians (two of Indonesia's Olympic silver winners and a third of our national soccer team are Papuans).

Ranier,

Now there's something for you to get your teeth into. What have you got to say to our Indonsian friend?

Proud to be Indonesian,
Your Indonesian propaganda and war-mongering identifies who you really are; nothing more than a pompous igoramous threatening war and violence.

The fact is I have had several of these West Papuans stay in my home while studying in Australia. They are gentle and intelligent people unlike the pretense you exude of them being thugs.

The Indonesian army entered their village, shot people with straight hair before their eyes that were not from their region because the army believed they were propagating independence. Which was not the case they were visiting friends. The army took several girls for rape as though these people are primitive thugs. They shot their chickens and pillaged their gardens for food. Is it any wonder these people want independence from a barbaric Indonesian Army.

They want independence all right because the Government has no controll over the barbarism carried out by the Indonesian Army in the field. The Indonesian army learned its military skills under Australian commanders. The Australian Commandos know the lack of sensibilities and poor decisions of the Indonesian military. They are not more than bruital thugs that cannot negotiate peace and tolerance; which you also show as the level of your barbarism and threat. Grow up!

Proud to be Indonesian,

You ought to hang your head in shame at the way the Indonesian Army treat the indigenous peoples of Indonesia. You call them barbaric thugs, that is a more apt description of the Indonesian Army.

When my nephew and his regiment was parashuted into East Timor to assist the civillian Temorise against the barbarism carried out against civillians by Thugs of the Indonesian Army they were amased that an army supposed to protect a civillian society could carry out such atrocities against unnarmed people. You ought to be proud, blood thirsty barbarians without a civil mind in any one of your soldiers.

When I wrote to your former President they indicated their concern for the behaviour of the army and assured me they were looking into its uncontrolled behaviour. It is obvious you also are not more than one of its political thugs; brainwashed by political propaganda.

Tony Bosk, Who writes for a newspaper in the People’s Republic of Canberra, is obviously another trendy lefty obsessed with the notion that every asylum shopping “refugee” in the world has an inalienable right to come to Australia where can become yet another burden on the long suffering Aussie taxpayer.

Mr Bosk quite rightly points out that Australia is not conforming to the treaties that our governments signed on our behalf, that give certain rights to refugees. But since I did not personally authorize Australian diplomats to traipse around the world with their “partners” signing away Australian sovereignty, I don’t feel any particular need to criticize the present government for that.

The solution to this moral quandary is simple. Abrogate those treaties.

But while Mr Bosk is arguing that it is utterly reprehensible for the Australian government to violate it’s own principles. But Mr Bosk sees nothing wrong with violating his own.

The 43 people who arrived in Australia are “Indonesians”, Mr Bosk, not “West Papuans.” Mr Bosk seems to think that Indonesian occupation of West Papua constitutes some sort of reprehensible action. But Mr Bosk must also believe in Multiculturalism, and under this concept the notion of “race” is verboten. Consequently, the instant an Indonesian soldier put his big toe on West Papua, then under some form of transmutation, every person in West Papua became an instant “Indonesian.” After all, under Multiculturalism, all cultures are equal. So it does not matter who runs the joint. And if Mr Bosk objects to current Indonesian migration to West Papua, then I would justifiably accuse him of being a racist.

Philo
I too have spoken to West Papuans who tell similar tales. One woman in particular told of how she witnessed a family member shot in the chest when he opened the door to the military. She spoke of women and girls being taken, raped and murdered by the Indonesian military, one of them her sister. She recounted the total fear she experienced when she opened the door to the military and they pointed a gun at her. She was not sure if she was shot or not.
I say we, Australia, should be demanding the truth about West Papua from our media and politicians. Indonesia appears to be incapable of governing in a peaceful manner the many disparate peoples it claims make up its country.
Independence for West Papua. Indonesia, as aptly demonstrated by PTBI rules with violence and death.
Graham Young spruiks about the need for truth about the Greenpeace/Japanese whaler incident, what about truth on West Papua.

It's very interesting that 'Proud to be Indonesian' hasn't responded to the comments of 'rlindsay'- it appears that PTBI had no trouble quoting facts and inviting posters to confirm them, but is a little lost for words when his 'facts' are questioned and proven false.

It is also a sad indictment on Indonesia that PTBI has so much trouble condemning the frequent brutality of the TNI. Why is it PTBI that your country cannot condemn its armed forces for the atrocities they commit against civilians? I believe that Indonesias brutality in West Papua, and Indonesias unwillingness to recognise that West Papuans are not Indonesians is a sign of insecurity and weakness. It is also a sign that because of poor government, poor resource management and poor living standards Indonesia's government is frightened that the entire population of Indonesia is growing disillusioned.

Australia is much more important to Indonesia than PTBI thinks. If things had turned bad in East Timor in 1999 I have little doubt that Australia would have instigated and achieved crushing pressure on Indonesia through the World Bank and the United States. Furthermore Indonesians do not have the skill to threaten other countries economically or militarily. It is the ethnic Chinese in Indonesia who support the rest of the population.

The Australian military has an extremely proud history-in fact defence analysts rank it as the second most proficient and well trained force in the world (only behind the Israelis). Malaya was a victory as the history books show- Australia not only helped Malaya become Malaysia (not part of Indonesia), but also to defeat the communist insurgency (the only insurgency defeated in modern times). Your Gallipoli comments were ignorant- Australia fought with English and New Zealanders. Australia has a long list of fine military victories though- El Alamein, Tobruk, Beersheba, New Guinea, Kappiyong, East Timor.....

Personally I do not believe 43 West Papaun asylum-seekers exist, I think it is just a beat up from the media, as I distinctly remember,our fearless leader announcing "We will decide who comes, and the circumstances under which they come" and that's good enough for me.

The bloody leftie press up to no good again, when will they ever learn that our fearless leader "DOES NOT LIE" this is a non issue good people a figment of media imagination, move along please, nothing to see here.

Shonga

Thanks for the hilarity. I am too hot, tired for succinct comment. This poor l'il victorian would never seek asylum in tropical climes, the humidity would melt me.

Guess what, folks. The Government makes decisions on foreign policy, and if you think they are going to take against Indonesia because of the touching scene of a little boy wearing underpants several sizes too large and a bag over his head, you are mistaken. Indonesia is a valuable partner in the war on terror, and it has, belatedly perhaps, agreed to contribute to the policing of illegal fishing in Australian waters.

East Timor was a one off. I still cannot understand how we got away with, or whether it was really worth it. They started complaining about us straight after we ‘liberated’ them. I think Indonesia would lose patience if the same action were taken in West Papua.

There will always be a softly-softly and carry a big stick relationship with Indonesia, but it is a vital and convenient relationship, which only a lunatic would attempt to break.

The Indonesian fellow is angry. Perhaps what a minority of Australian ignoramuses say about his country irritates him. These Australians, generally, also rubbish their own country and chunter on about cultural relativism, but when Indonesia acts relative to its culture and laws, they get stuck in, particularly if Australian criminals are involved. They also sneer at Australia for being America’s deputy sheriff in the region, but clamour for Australia to interfere with Indonesia.

What hypocrites!

Who's 'chuntering on about cultural relativism'?

Genocide is genocide, whether it's happening to Jews Kurds or West Papuans. The Indonesian bloke can rant and rave all he wants, but it doesn't alter the fact that his country is clearly in the wrong here.

Anyway, advocating that we accept a couple of refugees isn't quite the same as callling the military liberation of West Papua.

Leigh:

I agree with the others-You are irritating to debate with because you think you are alot smarter than what you are. How can you have an 'opinion' based not on facts but on false assumptions, and expect people to take you seriously? My frustration and I expect the frustration of many posters is that you cast judgements based on emotion, are totally inflexible and are content to be heard rather than contribute meaningfully.

You have a ridiculously simplistic concept of foreign affairs (amongst other things) and most are probably quite embarrassed for you.

PTBI

Sukarno created an archipaelego 'nation' on a whim and without any great foresight or precision. In doing so he trapped many different people of many different cultures and national identities- if Indonesia is so great to these people then why are there separatist movements from Aceh to Bali to West Papua? Why does Indonesia ignore the pleas of Balinese for greater protection from East Javanese terrorists while devoting huge numbers its armed forces to struggles against poorly equipped separatist movements?

Indonesia has become a liabilty for the US. America is only interested in Indonesia because it owes it huge amounts of money, and has allowed itself to become a training ground for Islamic terrorists. Indonesia has very little prospect of repaying its debts. Senior government ministers in Indonesia refuse to make JI illegal and actually dined with its spiritual leader instead of helping their country negotiate its financial crises.

With this sought of background do you seriously believe that Indonesia is anything other than the laughing stock of both the West AND the East

PTBI,

Why not lay-off the 'my army's bigger than your army' bit?

We all know it outnumbers ours 9 to 1, so what's the point of repeating what we know or abusing people about their feet? Of course we have dirty feet, its a wide, brown, sandy, dusty land and we love it! We don't really understand suggestions there's something wrong with the sole of your foot, some feet are quite attractive, none should be knocked for their hard work :)

I think we should also try to use the same information as a starting point. One article well worth reading for an exhaustive explanation of our foreign policy relationship is:

Birmingham, J. 2001, ‘Appeasing Jakarta - Australia's Complicity in the East Timor Tragedy’, Quarterly Essay, Issue 2, Schwartz Publishing, Melbourne

Note, the Australian author is very critical of Australian foreign policy. Note, nobody here has murdered him yet.

What we try to achieve is evolution not revolution. Revolution is the desperate tool of the murderer and it hurts the weakest in society most and first. We aim for change not hatred, debate not violence. Look closely at our reaction to Bali, did we invade? Obviously not. Were we sorry for the poor Balinese? We are. Did we laugh when Amrozi suggested bikinis and booze caused it? Yes. The Hindus Balinese had no problems with them, only with unwelcome assassins.

Lastly, I recall Yudhoyono took around TWELVE cabinet ministers to Australia with him last time. Indonesia is well liked here and we readily distinguish between accepting refugees from invading the country. Conversely, we gratefully accept the cooperation and friendliness that we receive from your President. However, we also know that he knows that not all the President's men are loyal...

I mean this sincerely when I say that until you and citizens from some other countries live in democracies and cultures where there is no 'eye for an eye', where disagreements don't lead to bombing and you can take insults on the chin from another with a different opinion you can't begin to know what it means to be free.

WRE,

You are right about one thing. I am inflexible in my views. Like others, I am a product of my experience, and I make up my mind - not emotionally, but on cold, hard facts and careful consideration. What am I supposed to do? Throw away over six decades of thought and experience to agree with someone who has all the trademarks of a spoilt brat?

And what’s this “debate” nonsense? Since when did OLO stand for On Line Debate?

I am happy to just express my opinion, and leave it at that. I don’t feel threatened by other posters who have ideas completely different from mine. I believe we are all entitled to our views, which, if they are worth having, shouldn’t need to be backed up with lecturing and abuse of other posters and their views. We can all adequately have our say by addressing the content of contributors’ articles. They are the ones with something to “sell” us, and they are fair game. I’m interested only in what they say and what I think of it. Not what you think. Perhaps you would feel better about yourself and your opinions if you did the same. I will continue to post when I wish to, and what I wish to, irrespective of your attitude to freedom of speech.

Finally, I don’t frustrate you. You allow yourself to be frustrated by my opinions. The simplest solution - don’t read my posts. And if you want to debate, join a debating club.

To Leigh.

Looks like you hit a nerve with WRE. When you provoke an emotional outburst from a trendy lefty, who is frustrated that his oh, so intellectually superior self image is being trashed by reasoned logic, you know that you are winning.

Analysis of attitude - Proud to be Indonesian

Attitude to West Papuans:
1. These asylum seekers are barbaric Papuan separatists
2. The kind of people who murdered two American schoolteachers in cold-blood in 2002
3. These barbaric thugs made this journey as method of dirty propaganda against Indonesia.
4. Papua's is LEGALLY and UNDENIABLY an integral and inseparable part of Republic of Indonesia according to two UN resolutions.
5. The truth is, the FBI found that it is the barbaric uncivilised Papuan separatists who is responsible for the murders of one Indonesian teacher and two Americans. These "asylum-seekers" are the same group with these barbaric thugs. Now wonder Australian govt is moving these barbarians to Christmas Island, so they won't be able to kill civilians like their habit back home
6. Barbaric Papuan separatism is all about dead and has zero prospect in the future. Most native Papuans today are prosperous and proud Indonesians (two of Indonesia's Olympic silver winners and a third of our national soccer team are Papuans).

Attitude to East Temor
1. It won't be like East Timor, which was let go by President Habibie since we can no longer afford the billions of rupiah of subsidies each year for that worthless piece of real estate.

Attitude to Australia
1. Let me made it clear for some Australians who stupidly think they can play around with Indonesia's territorial integrity in Papua province. We Indonesians will fight you to the death, 60% of Papua's inhabitants are transmigrants. They will make any Australian invaders choke with blood if you dare come.
2. In comparison, Australia is Aboriginal land illegally annexed by Britain using the illegal "terra nullis" concept which has been considered as illegal by the Mabo Ruling of 1995. An illegally-established country like Australia trying to tell others what is legal is like Hitler complaining about anti-Semitism.
3. The way some people here have misguided fantasies that Australia is somehow important or infuential in Indonesia is hilarious. The truth is, Australia is just a minor insignificant country that's very low in terms of importance to Indonesia.

Cont:
4. Australian armed forces is also just a joke. Their history is a history of defeats. When fighting alone, Australian troops was easily beaten, like in Gallipoli and Malaya. Your so-called "victories" in New Guinea should actually be credited to Americans who won all the major battles first before leaving the starving Japanese remnants to their stooges the Australians, since the American soldiers couldn't be bothered to mop-up. In East Timor, Australian soldiers have to be transported and guided by Indonesian soldiers at their first entrance, since President Habibie had ordered our soldiers to welcome the Australians with open arms.
5. If Australian invaders dare come to Indonesia, we 250 million Indonesians will make them pay in blood for each time their dirty feet touch Indonesian soil.
6. Besides, Australia is just an American stooge. President Yudhoyono is a close friend of President Bush, who viewed Indonesia as strategic ally. A stooge like Australia has no power or capability to invade other countries, especially a more important American ally, Indonesia.
7. Who are you trying to fool? East Timor is the world's poorest country with no worthwhile resources. The small oil reserve you're talking about have been stolen by that "first-world country" Australia. No wonder, considering the criminal origins of this "first-world country". We Indonesians have little respect for such first-class thieves.
8. Australia back-stabbed us in the back. We Indonesians have no respect for such back-stabbing people.

CONCLUSION:
When analysing his attitudes we discover he's a proud thug that promotes Indonesian propaganda and war mongering postering threats towards Australia. He's more interested in territory than people eg East-Temor. His arrogance toward Australia demonstrates his fear that Australia will act to protect the Native people of West Papua from attrocities committed by the Indonesian Army as it's done in East Temor. Which indicates he knows the facts of attrocities carried out against West Papuans and struggles to gloss over the reality, by indicating the army has wiped out all independence movement from WP.

If this is the case then these asylum seekers have a genuine case of refugee status.

Hear Hear. Philo

To Mr Proud to be an Indonsian.

I see that you are having a bit of trouble with our resident trendy lefties, would you like to, cross swords with a genuine right wing Australian?

Now personally, I think that since east Timor is geographically a part of Indonesia it should be Indonesian territory. Do you think that Indonesia could “liberate” the place again? It would save the long suffering Aussie taxpayer $200 million dollars a year.

While you are at it, could you also “liberate” Papua Niugini as well? This “country” costs Australia $500 million in direct aid every year, and a lot more in trouble. You know and I know that black people are hopeless at running a country, and since Australia abrogated its colonial responsibilities in guiding these backward primitives into the modern world, then it is only right that a relatively advanced country like Indonesia should do something to stop the near anarchy that the Papuans laughingly call a government.

Now you may need to get a little heavy handed to bring the Western Niugini primitives under control, but so what? When you look at the endless massacres and total dysfunction of black societies everywhere, then cracking a few eggs to make an omelet is justified. Remember what the Boers used to say. “A massacre in time saves nine.”

Now people of my political persuasion have no territorial ambitions towards Indonesia. As a matter of fact, we know that Australia is separated from Indonesia by the width of the Timor Sea, which most Australians wish was considerably wider. Unfortunately, this has not prevented a lot of Indonesians from immigrating to Australia, including a few dozen Jemaah Islamiah ratbags who want to blow us up, and with whom our government is powerless to deport. If you think that white people are crazy for putting up with stupidity, you are right.

To summarize, you guys stay on your side of the fence and we will happily stay on ours. As far as I am concerned, what you fellas do in Timor and in Timor and Niugini is your business.

Redneck,

Yes. They can give it but the can’t take it. These same lefties are the first to scream against censorship when it comes their wacky ideas. Ranier suggested that I be banned the other day. WRE and Ranier have become serial pests. I think the poor things actually think that if they insult people long enough they will go away and leave them to rule the roost. They are best ignored and left to rave and rant between themselves. I think most people on OLO, no matter what their views, conduct themselves properly, but these two are blight to both left and right and everything in between.

If WRE and Ranier had their way, they would be the only participants on OLO, until they fell out, which wouldn’t be too long with those egos

West Papua comment.

Australia is committed to 4% plus growth.

Australia is located geographically next to the engine rooms of contempory global growth.

The Government is intent on Australia being the main provider of raw materials to fuel the engine room to maintain the desired growth.

As a Nation we are desperate to prove regional identity. To be discovered as not affecting acceptable integration may affect trade, a reduction in growth and BIG business - the backers of our political machine will be ungratefully, disappointed.

We are hence pulling out all plugs to prove our identity; place in the sun, is truly here - Asia and not Europe. Australia opens our doors to any acquisition of our land, bricks and mortar, or shares and every thing is for sale at a price - dont conquer just pay.

In reverse our neighbours all have limits on who can migrate too or invest in. Some, to the point of making access for migration or investment very difficult - or near impossible.

To maintain this posture our commonsense, our morals our religion our national identity, our principles our preparedness to unreasonably exploit our limited none renewable recourses, all are subject to interpretation, negotiation and utterly expendable.

This thrust of focused National momentum results in confusion when Chinese seek stay in Australia - for fear it may upset the Chinese power brokers.

A massive over response with public money to the tsunami - trying to appease the Muslim Indonesian/Asian sympathies following Timor and Bali.

An approach to climate change response that appeases regional nations and their big business mates, with nothing but technically nonsense.

Apparently, failure to address robustly any issues regionally with out first and for most measuring the impact of such a decision on the BUSINESS outlook - is standard policy

The West Papua malaise. The vote was a sham, UN supervised or not - PNG and Australia do not want to know. PNG for very different reasons, but equally and disgracefully - very tribal, do not want to even hear about their brothers over the border.

It is wrong shame.

Indonesia has now asked for the return of the 43 illegal entrants to Australia. The Australian Government should comply with the request and start spending more time on the well being of Australia and the people who elected them to run our country.

What Indonesia does is Indonesia's business. That country might eventually have to answer for its deeds, if it has anything to be ashamed of, but it does not have to answer to Australia, now or ever.

Hello Australians..

May I offer you a happy Australia Day, may the white race continue its dominance over all others in Australia.

@philo: Calm down, boy. You obviously has been brainwashed by Papuan separatist propaganda. The truth is, it is the Papuan separatists who are barbaric civilian-murdering thugs, as discovered by FBI. The barbaric Papuan separatists also the ones who kidnapped 15 WWF researchers in 1996, eventually murdering two of them while the others were successfully rescued by Indonesian soldiers.

http://www.library.ohiou.edu/indopubs/1996/03/19/0004.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopassus

Indonesian soldiers and police are the selfless individuals who build roads and bridges, taught at remote schools, and maintain law and order in West Papua. No wonder many Papuans flocked to join the Indonesian military. One, Freddy Numberi, reached the rank of Rear Admiral of the Navy. He is now Indonesia's Minister for Maritime Affairs.

Your fairy-tale stories are as cheesy and weak as your English spelling abilities. If you dare talking nice things about the barbaric Papuan thugs to the family of their innocent victims, I won't blame them if they want to harm you immediately.

The only mistake done by Indonesia is it is weak or don't care about overseas public relations, so the twisted anti-Indonesian lies of the separatist propagandaists abroad went unpunished.

@ro:
Relax, mate. I'm merely explaining the truth for your fellow countrymen who have delusional fantasies about my country. Maybe they have been smoking too much pot, like your fellow Aussiewoman Schapelle Corby.

PTBI.

Can you please respond to the questions posed by 'rlinday'

Leigh,
It is all very well to wipe your hands of any responsibility to the indigenous people of West Papua; but the fact remains I like mant Australians have close and personal friends living in the area and we want the opporyunity for them to live and participate in their society without fear.

The fact is the Indonesian army fronts up to their door or village brandishing guns so any person showing fear they shoot without trial and no questions asked. They burn down Churches in the village. They snatch and rape young village girls. Many of these girls are virgins and they cherish their virginity - any resistance means death. The Indonesian army are not more than maurading thugs imposing their rule upon a simple and civilised mountain culture.

A Papuan friend now living here in Australia had his youngest brother murdered in the bush and his body found just this week. The fact is anyone who has contact with people outside Indonesia are suspected of fighting for independence. This is the mentality of the Indonesian Army. They monitor all contact of the local people with the outside world and consider that contact as fighting for independence. Persons are not given a trial - just shot no questions asked.

@wre:

Again, read-up first before making nonsense statements, otherwise you'll look like a fool like now.

Indonesia is the world's 15th largest economy worth $ 900 billion, far bigger than Australia's economy of $ 643 billion. If Indonesia's GDP per capita is smaller than Australia, it is because Indonesia has 12.5 times bigger population than Australia. Indonesia has cut its poverty rate by half in the past six years. Our economic growth rate at 5.5%, is the highest in Southeast Asia. Indonesia's debt to GDP ratio is the smallest in Southeast Asia, only around 50%. Our economy is doing fine, thank you.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/id.html

You seem to be pretty bad at history too, since you are clueless about the huge Australian defeat in Malaya in 1942, where nearly 100,000 Australians became Japanese slaves overnight. Australia also played very small role in Malayan Emergency as the stooge of the British. Even then, with so many Commonwealth soldiers fighting a small group of poorly-equipped insurgents, the communist insurgency continued in Malaysia long after the departure of the British, ending only in a peace deal with Malaysian government in 1989. Claiming such display of incompetence to be a "victory" is like feeling proud over a fail mark.

On the other hand, Indonesia has successfully ended countless violent radical Islamist, communist, separatist, and foreign-provoked insurgencies easily. Indonesia is perhaps the most successful country in ending insurgencies anywhere in the world.

You are also wrong about the nature of my country. Indonesia was an idea created by groups of students from all ethnicities, expressed on the Youth Pledge of 1928. There is no "separatism" in Indonesia, there has been only two weak separatist movements. The relatively organised Acehnese separatists has recently surrendered in August 2005. The Papuan separatists are just incompetent jokes incapable of doing anything more than killing civilians, the only thing about them is the big mouth of their propagandaists abroad. Hence, Indonesia faces no threat at all from separatism.

Proud to be Indonesian,
You obviously have no military skills in peaceful negotiation. The people I know in West Papua are happy to be Indonesian but when the Indonesian Army bastardise their community imposing their authority they privately hope for a better way.

I have no contact with separatist fighters, but can understand why they want personal freedom to practise their culture rather than convert to Islam. You are behaving the same way toward these native people as you have done toward the East Temorise.

I can tell you people are happy to live under a government that respects their freedom and choices; and not like yourself that want to impose your will over people. Obviously you have murdered without trial all who will not submit to your will. This is the sign of an uncivilised society.

You bring Chapelle Corby into the scene - a young woman condemned on circumstancial evidence. There was no fingerprinting done on the plastic bags and no DNA samples taken of the drugs to discover their sourse, which indicates the primitive justice practised in Indonesia. Only these forensic examinations could have established her guilt or innonence.

Talk about primitive justice you certainly believe in it. Is it any wonder that innocent people shot without trial in West Papua that their families hate and react toward the Indonesian Army.
_______________________________

Quotes like this indicate your view of these people. "You obviously has been brainwashed by Papuan separatist propaganda. The truth is, it is the Papuan separatists who are barbaric civilian-murdering thugs, as discovered by FBI. The barbaric Papuan separatists also the ones who kidnapped 15 WWF researchers in 1996, eventually murdering two of them while the others were successfully rescued by Indonesian soldiers."

Australia should not have to take as migrants any more people who's culture is so different to our own. We are having enough strife with certain races and we will have more when the African nationals get going.
If these 43 people are given asylum ,we will have the whole of islands to our north on our doorstep.
Perhaps if the UN investigated Indonesia's treatment of other races and insisted they get their independance as did East Timor, it would be a good thing.

Proud to be Indoneasian to you sir all I have to say about your apparent primordial approach is ...........With friends like you who needs enemies. I think you are a ratbag.

Tribal

Proud to be Javanese is indeed a ratbag.

Proud to be Indonesian - you state "Indonesia is perhaps the most successful country in ending insurgencies anywhere in the world"; There are many in Aceh who since independence would disagree. The sad thing about excess of any kind is that it completely blinds you to facts. Excess of pride has made you grow blinkers. To be proud also means to be honourable and credible; your posts lack both on many occasions

I think it's interesting that the Western New Guinea issue doesn't get the attention of the UN. The majority of UN time is spent in issuing condemnations of the Jewish majority in Israel for not carving a separate country for the minority there -- a country that would easlily fit into Cumberland Co., NSW. In Israel, Jews who live in their own country are called "settlers" and "ocupiers"; and whenever they try to expand their communities to give homes to needy families, the world pressures the Israeli government to tear them down. In New Guinea, there is a large, clearly defined country, clearly having been invaded and occupied by the Indonesians, but the world says nothing -- because the occupiers are Moslems, not Jews. How about a UNWRA for the Papuans?

To Mr Proud to be an Indonesian.

Thank you for offering us a happy Australia Day, and may the Indonesian people continue to expand eastwards as you have done for thousands of years, subjugating the black primitives that are sorely in need of civilisation and efficient government. The white race used to do that sort of thing ourselves once but it has gone out of fashion.

Your figures detailing Indonesian economic gains were impressive. Makes me wonder why Australia donated $1 billion dollars to Indonesia when that tsunami wave hit Aceh when you don’t need our aid at all. That is the funny thing about us white people these days. We prefer to help everybody else in the world instead of our own poor people. Did you know that people in mental health institutions in Australia have ration scales less than convicted criminals?

As for Chapelle Corby, despite what a lot of noisy lefties say, I think that most people in Australia consider that she had a fair trial. We get a lot of Vietnamese people coming into Australia carrying heroin and they always say the same thing as Corby when they get caught. But nobody believes them and they are all convicted, where our legal system gives them a slap on the wrist. Australians prefer to let 1000 Australians die of heroin overdoses every year rather than put to death a few Vietnamese who are mass murdering our own people. Our own legal system is a joke. Did you know that in Australia a shopkeeper can be charged with “assault” if he attacks a thief robbing his shop?

Now I know that Indonesia is sore at Australia for fighting you during your konfrontasi with Malaysia. But don’t worry. If Indonesia wants Malaysia now you can have it. No Australian would lift a finger to help such a bunch of Australia bashing ingrates again. Please invade Malaysia again any time you please.

Realist wrote" saying timor is a worthless piece of real estate is silly. They have wonderful natural resources i wont even begin to mention. Oil being one.

Have you got listings of Indo land in your Logan office?

Philo,

I appreciate your concern for your friends, but we have to take into account 20 million Australians and many more ordinary Indonesians. Sabre rattling at Indonesia is simple not a good idea for far too many people who are not harming anyone.

If that useless organization, the UN, got off its backside and investigated the problem there could be no objection. Unfortunately, even thought it is run by a Third Worlder and 57% staffed by Third Worlders who are supposed to know all about colonialism, need and barbarity, they don't appear to be interested once they obtain their UN sinecures.

I believe in human dignity, but there is no way in the world that Australia will become involved in Indonesian affairs. Whether or not we think Indonesia has any rights over West Papua, they obviously think they have.

It is my understanding that the Indonesian takeover of West Papua after the Dutch left was with the agreement of Papuan leaders, supervised by the UN. I also know that some unidentified people have been reported as saying it was a 'sham'. Who knows? Either way, only government's can take responsibility for foreign policy, and the rest of us just have to hope for the best result.

On 18 August, 2005., A report from the University of Sydney entitled "Genocide in West Papua" claiming the death of 100,000 people over 30 years was presented at Parliament House. Since then, no further mention of the report, so it is unlikely that the fate of 43 living Papuans will be enough for Australia or the UN to take any action for them or their compatriots.

Leigh,
The native people of West Papua would have no problem with being Indonesian if Indonesia respected them as human beings with equal rights.

The thing is - most of the native population are Christian and this puts them at odds with the Indonesian Government and Army who being typical Muslim despise these people as less than human. This Muslim army treat them as part of their jihad. That justifies their murder of dissidents and rape of the women.

This was the problem in East Timor a majority Catholic country; the army could massacre these people because they were not Muslim. Most of my friends want to stay in Indonesia because of greater opportunities in the type of work they do. Many of them are university trained so have degrees from Indonesian universities.

My nephew did his military training in Duntroon while Australia was still training Indonesian military. These young men from Indonesia were staunch Muslims and did not enter the usual after training booze and activities of the local lads. Neither did my nephew so he got to spend his time with these boys from Indonesia. They just enjoyed the power of holding a gun and dominating a scene. They have no people skills to encourage dissenters they are there for the protection of all citizens. They demonstrate they are there for their murder if they dissent.

Imagine if the Australian army moved through the country shooting everyone who wanted a Republic. I would think we would soon have a strong Republican movement form that wanted to suceed from the present Government

To Philo.

If separatist religious terrorists waged a war against the Australian people demanding "liberation" or a separate state, in violent acts which were serious enough to involve the military, the Australian Army probably would run around shooting those terrorists and their supporters.

And that scenario is probably just a matter of time anyway in our increasingly divided society.

I spoke tonight to a mate of mine who lived in West Papua for 29 years and he has not been able to contact friends this last week as there is a complete lock down on telephone, internet, fax etc into the country. It is obvious Indonesia is doing a complete cleansing of all contact with Australia since the defection of the refugees into Australian waters.

Whatever is happening does not seem good in my opinion. There could be another East Timor happening from the tone of PTBI.

Hello Australians..

@philo:

Your Muslim-baiting Papuan separatist propaganda about the nature of Indonesia's military are nothing but lies. The chief of Indonesian military during the anti-Dutch confrontation to take West Papua was a Buddhist, General Gatot Subroto. The Indonesian military chief who planned the invasion of East Timor was a Catholic, General Leonardus Benjamin Moerdani. The Indonesian military commander of East Timor who ordered the so-called "Santa Cruz Massacre" was also a Pentacostal minister, General Herman Bernhard Leopold Mantiri. Our current navy chief is a Protestant, Admiral Bernard Kent Sondakh. Our famous president Suharto is a nominal Muslim who openly prayed at Hindu and Buddhist temples.

The Indonesian military and police chiefs in West Papua and the former province of East Timor are almost always Christians. The current military chief in Papua is a Protestant, General Mahidin Simbolon. The current police chief in Papua is a Catholic, Commissioner Paulus Waterpauw. The police chief in East Timor during 1999 referendum was also a Catholic, Commissioner Fransiskus Xaverius Suratman.

Indonesia is not a Muslim country, it is a secular nationalist country based on Pancasila (heck, Indonesia is about to have its own local version of Playboy, in addition to FHM Indonesia and Maxim Indonesia). Indonesian military is one of the most secular institution in our country, boasting many non-Muslim commanders.

Indonesia is also not a Javanese country, we are the most diverse nation on earth, consisting of 742 ethnicities, plus large immigrant communities of Chinese (at 12 million, the largest overseas Chinese community), Indians, Arabs, and half-white Eurasians. If we are dominated by one ethnic group, our country would've disappeared a long time ago like Soviet Union or Yugoslavia.

http://www.ethnologue.org/show_country.asp?name=ID

Considering your total ignorance on Indonesian affairs, I think all your "stories" not only lack any credibility, but they are deliberate anti-Indonesian propaganda meant to deceive the regular Australian bloke you took as ignorant fools.

@coraliz:

Have you been drinking too much grog, mate? Aceh today is a province of Indonesia. The ill-organised armed separatist movement there has surrendered on August 2005 Helsinki deal. The surrender is caused by Indonesian military's success in breaking the back of the low-scale insurgency there in a 2003 offensive, while the tsunami wiped out whatever dreams the separatists have of East Timor-like "foreign intervention".

Please do not post nonsense, coraliz. Instead, be honourable and credible!

@leigh:

I consider you as one of the wisest and most honourable of the Australian forummers here. Australia should learn to adopt the principle of MYOB (Mind Your Own Business) in its foreign affairs. No matter how much Australians rant and rave, you will never have any influence in Indonesian affairs. In fact, your statements do not even have any nuisance value in Indonesian national discourse. Australians should learn their position in the regional food chain and behave accordingly. You mind your own business, we'll mind ours.

BTW that "genocide" report by University of Sydney are rubbish. I've read that report, and guess who's the sole source of this report: a British member of Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) who was deported from Indonesia after the communists launched an abortive coup in 1965. These slaves of Moscow and Peking twice launched violent rebellion against Indonesian govt (1948 and 1965) in order to make Indonesia a communist country. Such violent communists have no credibility. No wonder the Australian govt immediately throw this "report" to the rubbish bin.

Now there's a compliment leigh

Proud to be Indonesian,
I assume you are located in the Highlands of West Papua and therefore know exactly what the Indonesian military are doing on the ground in West Papua. Otherwise your claim is spurious and not more than a cover up: Quote, "Your Muslim-baiting Papuan separatist propaganda about the nature of Indonesia's military are nothing but lies."

I have nothing to do with the seperatist movement in West Papua, but I have Indonesian friends there that while they lived with me told me exactly what the Indonesian military in West Papua have done. When I have tried to ring them lately they tell me their conversations are monitored by the military so they cannot talk in case anything is interpreted as separatist intelligence which places their life in danger. These people are unnarmed civillians and pose no threat to the the military, but anything that the military fell looks unusual means they are shot no questions asked. These unnarmed people do not face an Indonesian Court to establish their seperatist links, or they do not threaten the military but can be shot dead merely for objecting to the actions of the military. So I suggest rather than sprouting your propaganda to Australians you educate yourself in exactly what the military are doing in West Papua to the indiginous peoples.

You are trying to justify the action of the military rather than act for the protection of all civillian people in West Papua. It is not a humanitarian image you give to the international community and your record as in Timor shows how you treat unnarmed civillian populations.

To Mr proud to be an Indonesian.

Yeah mate. We get the same accusations about "genocide" of the aboriginal people by left wing anti everything trendies too. A whole bunch of university academics once lined up to accuse Australia of "genocide", using six definitions of the word "genocide" defined by an agency of the United Nations. There was only one thing wrong with their argument. The six definitions of "genocide" provided by the UN were not part of the English language. The English language has only one definition of the word "genocide."

Trendy lefties are rather notorious for using novel interpretations of language to defame their enemies and promote their causes. As the rabbit said to Alice in Wonderland. "Words mean exectly what I say they mean, nothing more, nothing less."

@philo:

You have just been caught red-handed lying about Indonesian military. Now, you expect us to take your stories seriously as absolute truth. You must be dreaming. The fact is, your fairy tale stories are nothing more than propaganda lies, worth less than a grain of dirt.

Indonesia always use its court system when dealing with violent barbaric separatists who break our laws. The 12 barbaric separatists responsible for the murder of two American and one Indonesian schoolteachers are currently being tried in Jakarta. We are the most legalistic country even when dealing with barbarians, far more than the Americans in Iraq who just arrest people without any intention to put them on trial.

Indonesia also do not engage in any military operation in West Papua today, since there has been no "insurgency" there since 2003. The only time the incompetent Papuan separatists posed some newsworthy security threat is after the fall of Suharto, when too many soldiers and police were pulled-out due to foreign pressure, causing security vacuum in that province. As result, the barbaric separatists were able to kill many defenceless civilians, such as those two American and one Indonesian schoolteacher.

After a few soldiers were posted there in 2002-03, the incompetent civilian-murdering "insurgents" were quickly killed or captured, while the survivors fled to the failed state Papua New Guinea. Currently, we only need 10,000 soldiers to guard West Papua, an province the size of France+Benelux with 1000 km border with the failed state of PNG. Today, separatism in West Papua is dead, the "insurgency" had died, the happy civilians of Papua now enjoy complete freedom and security to engage their daily lives, courtesy of Indonesian military and police.

Keep in mind, philo, never again shall we allow the barbaric Papuan separatists to kill defenceless civilians.

Proud to be Indonesian,
What do you know is happening on the remote villages in West Papua that takes three days trecking on foot to reach. Obviously nothing! Otherwise Indonesia would have nothing to restrict these people making contact with their friends in countries they have visited for further education.

The military hanging around these remote villages is not going to capture and bring before a court these people they have decided on the spot to shoot because these shy people resent the threats of armed soldiers intimidation them.

They being shy and scared as unnarmed civillians will react as showing lack of cooperation and may show resentment. They are not freedom fighers but they certainly resent the pillaging of their gardens shooting their pigs [considered unclean animals] and raping of the girls in their villages by soldiers throwing their armed weight around.

I suggest you open the lines of communication for West Papuan Indonesians with their friends outside Indonesia if you have nothing to hide. But it appears by your propaganda that you are hiding what is really happening in West Papua. I have more reason to believe these people as I know they tell the truth as they have lived with me for months while gaining education, than you who threaten the Australian Armed forces because you fear we might enter as we did in East Timor to protect unnarmed civillians against genocide by Indonesian military murderers. You value mineral assets above a persons life as is evident by your degrading remarks about a worthless peice of land that is East Timor.

To quote you, "You have just been caught red-handed lying about Indonesian military. Now, you expect us to take your stories seriously as absolute truth. You must be dreaming. The fact is, your fairy tale stories are nothing more than propaganda lies, worth less than a grain of dirt.

We have a historical record of how the Indonesian military deal with civillian populations - not nice.

@philo:

LOL you are a very incompetent liar. You try to fabricate lies that Indonesia is somehow "closing" West Papua to outside world.

The truth is, West Papua is as open to the outside world as it can be. West Papuan highlands have totally free communication and is totally open for the outside world. Here's some travel agencies that offered vacational tours for Westerners or anybody else to West Papuan highlands:

http://www.alpineascents.com/carstensz.asp
http://www.mountainmadness.com/sevensummits/carstensz.cfm
http://www.adventureindonesia.com/irian-baliem-general.htm
http://www.eastindonesia.com/
http://www.alfaprimatours.com/destination.php?ss=dtsug&code=AP-PPA-01&ID=4
http://www.komodotours.com/west_papua/tours/4days_baliem_valley_tour.htm

I think it has been proven that your stories are just fabricated lies. I have also disclosed your other lies, where you claim Indonesian military are all Muslims while the truth is most soldiers posted in West Papua are Christians, and lots of Indonesians are actually Christian missionaries spreading Christian faith to the animist Papuans. You are worse than Hitler, trying to manipulate religious sentiments for your propaganda purposes.

A filthy liar like you who have been caught red-handed has zero credibility, you don't expect anybody to believe your fabricated stories, do you? There are no West Papuan "friends", aren't they? These "friends" are just your imagination, right? You are one of the propagandaists of West Papuan separatists trying to destroy Indonesia, aren't you?

So sad, you are trying to lie and cover-up the atrocities of the barbaric separatists. How dare you call these civilian-murdering barbarians as "freedom fighters". The only thing these people "freed" are their civilian victims whom they freed from their lives. Clearly, you have no respect for human rights. You clearly don't care about all the civilians murdered by the separatist thugs. If you dare talking like this to the families of rebels' atrocities, I cannot blame them if they want to hurt you immediately.

THE TRUTH ABOUT BARBARIC PAPUAN SEPARATISTS:
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel04/papuan062404.htm
http://www.library.ohiou.edu/indopubs/1996/03/19/0004.html

How dare you support these violent barbaric thugs! You really don't value the lives of the barbaric separatists' victims, don't you? You don't care about the lives of the two American and one Indonesian schoolteachers murdered three years ago by these barbaric separatist thugs, do you? Their lives are meaningless for you, aren't they?

Proud to be Indonesian,
You are so far off this planet in your claims and accusations you do not deserve to be listened to. As others has concluded you are a ratbag!

Check the phones to the highlands of West Papua, they do not work from Australia to West Papua. Why?

I have had 4 young reliable Indonesian men from the highlands of West Papua live with me at various times since 1998 and I know their reliable character and honesty. As for yourself you are nothing more than puffing hot air. Why did you begin posting on this National Forum in Australia? Rather suspicious motivations especially all the military threats.

As far as I'm concerned you do not deserve any further attention as you really are a raving ratbag

Philo

I see, you try to do personal attacks to avoid answering my question.

Don't try to avoid my question:
You really don't care about the lives of the murder victims of the barbaric Papuan separatists, don't you??

Me being strictly neutral I would point out that "Proud to be Indonesian" is writing posts which appear to be objective, while Philo is frothing at the mouth and jumping up and down in an emotional frenzy. Naughty, naughty, Philo. You may have a deep emotional comitment to your cause, but it is absolutely essential when debating to maintain a degree of emotional detachment to maintain credibility. If you lose your cool you appear to be a person devoid of the ability to think objectively and rationally. Insults are OK, as a matter of fact they can be very entertaining. But the proviso is that they must be cleverly put, which indicates that the speaker (or writer) is thinking clearly and intelligently. Just letting fly with a string of sneery insults does the exact opposite.

My score would be "Proud to be Indonesian" 7/10. Philo 3/10.

I have no doupt that Philo is correct when he states that the Indonesian army is committing atrocities in West New Guinea in order to enforce Indonesian rule on an unwilling black population. But every black state in the world is an anarchic economic basket case that the Western world is sick and tired of subsidising, and sick and tired of intervening militarily in to prevent the motley collection of tribes and kleptocratic factions from butchering each other.

However much I deplore that West New Guinea will fall to a backward religion like Islam, it is still preferable that this black West New Guinea society should be forcibly assimilated into a relatively advanced civilisation than to remain in a trouble prone, semi barbarous state forever. Australia does not want any more intractable problems like PNG, Bouganville, Timor, or Guadalcanal continually draining away our financial, military and police resources

Proud to be Indonesian,
I checked the sites you gave and only two Hotels out of 86 in the listings were available by phone or fax and none by internet. I haven't checked to see if the phones actually worked. All who had website display stated that access was currently down and was coming soon.

All my friends in West Irian have University of Indonesia degrees in commerce or arts and want to serve in Indonesia. They have been boys financed by wealthy Dutch citizens to gain their education in Indonesia. They were here in Australia learning English and theology.

One friend now living in the Philippines has three degrees in medical practise, microbiology specialising in human disease, and theology; she speaks and writes in five languages including Arabic, English, Dutch, Indonesian, her Indiginous language and speaks fluently in four other tribal languages [inclusive of the tribal Philippine community in which she now lives a Muslim woman].

My concern is for the native people in West Papua who you consider as primitive and backward that their land is being taken from them for resettlement programmes. These people have existed there for thousands of years as self contained happy communities costing Indonesia not a thing.

My friend who lived there for 29 years introduced a range of vegetables and fruits and new breeds of pigs into their diet. They do not deserve to be pushed around by the military merely to grab their land, and be expected to modernise merely to become wards of the State of Indonesia. They may not have previously paid tax to the government being subsistent farmers, but they did not also become the responsibility of the Government to employ them. Though several of my friends now work for the Indonesian Government. But their parents are still simple tribal people who live in a self contained environment.

Philo

Your stories just confirm what I have said all along. Papuans greatly benefit from being part of Indonesia. Native Papuans would've never been able to gain higher education were not for Indonesian govt subsidies and special placement programs which guaranteed places for bright Papuan students in good Indonesian universities. Religious-wise, most native Papuan reverends and Catholic priests received their Christian theological education from seminaries in Central Java. Contrary to what some Australians think, there has been zero effort from Indonesian govt to "Islamice" Papuans, because Indonesia is not an Islamic country.

Indonesia never attempts to take away land from the Papuans, nor did we ever try to force native Papuans from their traditions. In fact, the Indonesian govt subsidise the development and protection of Papuan culture each year so that native traditions is far more vibrant and strong in West Papua than PNG, where the native culture had been destroyed by uncontrolled distribution of guns, drugs, and alcohol. Indonesian govt wisely has put an effective ban on all these destructive elements from entering West Papua.

If any land were needed for transmigration purposes, the native Papuans always receive more than enough compensations. These lands were then transformed into productive ricefields, so that today West Papua is a rice surplus area which is the rice-bowl of Eastern Indonesia and exporter of rice to PNG. I have a friend from Vanimo, PNG, near the Indonesian border. He said almost all the food and sundry products they consumed came from Indonesia. So does all their TV and radio programs, came from Indonesian channels.

http://www.diacritica.com/sobaka/2002/png.html

Indonesia represents progress and advancement for West Papua province, while Papuan separatists has been proven to represent barbarism and backward tribal mentality.

P2BI
selamat datang ke forum ini.
Rupanya saudara merasa kurang senang dengan sikap dan kata2 kami mengenai keadaan di WP itu.
Sebenarnya, walaupun ada berbagai2 kemajuan di sebelah kaum masyarakat, yang paling dibenci oleh penduduk2 asli disitu, ialah kedatangan ramai orang berugama Islam dari luar negri mereka.

Mereka merasa tidak bisa menolong diri terhadap kejadian itu. Mereka tahu juga, bahawa lama kelamaan, penduduk berugama Islam akan naik sedangkan pendirian atau kedudukan dan suara mereka sendiri akan mengurang.

Kami disini, mengingatkan juga keganasan yang dilakukan oleh pihak tentera TNI dan Melitia penyokong Indonesia di Timor Timor. Kami tidak ragu tentang kebenaran cerita itu, sebab kami sudah saksikan semuanya pada waktu ia berlaku.

Kepada saya, kalau Kerajaan Indonesia berbuat yang baik terhadap penduduk asli di WP maka, penduduk itu tidak menjadi marah dan curiga pada Kerajaan itu. Sumber marah mereka yang terbesar adalah sebagai sudah disebut, "Pendatang2 dari luar Negri, yang berugama Islam".

Kalau perkara itu dibaiki, saya rasa marah dan perang kecil itu akan lenyap.

In English, basically I'm saying that if The Indo Government ceases to allow transmigration of large numbers of Muslims from outside WP, the problem will dissappear.

Proud to be Indonesian.Now me old mate, I know you Indonesians like to guild the old lily a bit,but your comments of we good old Ozzies is a bit rich to say the least.Because as you know,Indonesia is a lovely place but it is still third world (is there a fourth world ? )country but I digress. Now your analysis of the World and Indonesias part in it,has more holes in it than the cheap shirts I brought back from Bali.However I must confess using them as polishing rags has given my white holden commodore a magnificent pink hue it looks beautiful.

Now as for the Indonesian military.Look me old china I use to be in the Ozzy Army, in fact I reached the dizzy rank of Sergeant.Now by Ozzy standards it's about middle management but I believe the Indonesian equivalent is some where up around General.I was involved in training Indonesian soldiers,and once you had shown them the correct end of the rifle the bullet came out of they progressed quite well.

Now the Indonesian "Konfrontasi"Lets us just say as well as Timor,any contact with our boys in the sixty's was a complete humiliation for Indonesia.You can tell the other fellows on this forum it was just a few communist insurgents but they threw four Indonesian regiments into that little police action.I suggest a good library here to get a bit of FACTUAL Information would be most benificial.

Indonesia has one of the most endemic corrupt governments in the world,and before I would even believe an Indonesian weather report I would have to be on the ground experiencing it for my self.Please don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining.

Oh and one more think before I get back to my piss up.If you Sir think America will side with Indonesia before Australia in any world crises you are dilusional.And please no burst about spelling or grammer I am having a drink with a few of my x digger mates,who after reading your twaddle are rolling around laughing.

From NYTimes

The arrests and the promise by the Indonesians of a fair trial still leave unanswered who planned the attacks, what the motives were and whether Indonesian soldiers were involved, Mrs. Spier said. To get those answers, she said she had asked President Yudhoyono to allow the F.B.I. to continue in the case and to question the suspects to ensure "a credible investigation." The president "gave his commitment," she said, although the national police chief, Gen. Sutanto, said last week that the F.B.I.'s role was over.

"The police involved in the investigation still believe the military was involved," said an Indonesian investigator who gave The New York Times official transcripts of witness interviews. "But this involves relations between two countries. It will be difficult for the police to dare to say the military was involved."

The evidence of military involvement is largely circumstantial. Mr. Wamang was close to Indonesian military units in Papua, and was paid by the military for trips to Jakarta, the police investigator said.

After his capture, Mr. Wamang told the police he got the bullets from a senior Indonesian soldier, his lawyer, Albert Rumbekwan, said. The F.B.I. said in a report to a Congressional panel that the assailants had used the same type of automatic rifles used by Indonesia's military.

The ambush occurred between military checkpoints that are only five miles apart. The road falls away at almost an 80-degree angle into a mountainous valley, making it almost impossible for the attackers to have gotten into position without the acquiescence of soldiers on the road, the Indonesian police investigator said, a conclusion shared by Mrs. Spier and American investigators.

The soldiers on the road did not respond to the attack for more than 30 minutes, according to Mrs. Spier and the F.B.I. investigation. Soldiers came to the rescue after a Freeport executive, Andrew J. Neale, stumbled across the shooting as he was driving down the road and went to the military post for help. He said he had heard "continuous shooting," an official transcript of his questioning by Indonesian police says

@BOAZ-David:

Tidak pernah ada masalah antara kaum pendatang dan kaum asli, apalagi masalah agama. Perlu anda ketahui, begitu banyak org beragama Islam yg menikah dgn org asli Papua. Edo Kondologit menikah dgn seorang turunan Tionghoa, Jaap Solossa kawin dgn seorang Jawa Islam, Arie Sihasale menikah dgn Nia Zulkarnaen yg Muslim juga. Jadi tidak benar apabila ada masalah antara kaum pendatang dan kaum asli Papua, yg bermasalah hanyalah kaum separatis barbar yg sangat lemah shg tak patut diperhitungkan.

In English, basically there is no problem between transmigrants and inidgenous people. Transmigrants gave native Papuans lots of employment and economic opportunities, they help spread Christianity to the natives and those who were Muslims never force their religion on Papuans, plus there are so much interracial and interreligous intermarriage between native Papuans and other Indonesians (Jaap Solossa married a Javanese Muslim, Edo Kondologit married half-Chinese half-Javanese woman, Ari Sihasale married Nia Zulakarnaen a Eurasian Muslim actress, etc).

The only people who cannot accept people of other religion/race are the backward barbaric Papuan separatists. Indonesia has no reason to care about these wannabe terrorists since:

1) Papuan separatists are so weak they don't merit any attention from Indonesian govt.

2) Papuan separatists are barbaric terrorists. Indonesian govt does not care with what terrorists think.

@antigone:

I think trusting the words of the barbaric Papuan thug Antonius Wamang who had admitted to brutally murdering civilians is a very dumb act. This brutal murderer is just making up all kinds of excuses to cover-up the cruel brutality of the Papuan separatist terrorists. A barbaric murderer like him has zero credibility. FBI and Indonesian police investigation has proven the barbaric bloodthristy-ness of the Papuan separatist criminals.

It is too bad the Indonesian justice system is too kind, allowing such barbaric separatist thug and his lawyers to make all kinds of lies in order to cover-up their brutality. Shame on you for giving the words of such brutal murderer any value, while putting no value at all to the lives of his victims!

@PHILB:

1) You should buy shirts from one of Indonesia's numerous shopping centres, not from some street-side stall who sells cheap Chinese shirts suitable only for beggars. Here's a list of a few shopping malls you can visit:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=281592&page=1

Don't worry, Indonesia has first-class shopping facilities that are far superior than the third (or fourth) rate shopping facilities of Australia.

2) Do they teach you military history at NCO training, or do they only teach this subject to real officers who is actually required to think unlike mere sergeants. You confuse the Malayan Emergency (a domestic Malaysian communist insurgency between 1948-1989) and Konfrontasi, two different conflicts in which Australia plays an insignificant role as the stooge of Britain. I suggest you visit a good library in a nearby university to read-up beneficial factual information.

3) The Konfrontasi was a favour done by Indonesia for the Communist Bloc in support of Malaysian communist insurgents, because the Soviets was kind enough to loan one billion dollars worth of weaponry to Indonesia. However, the local commies were dumb and greedy enough to launch an abortive coup in 1965, so that our military were forced to destroy that party. Subsequently, Konfrontasi (a communist pet project) became irrelevant and abandoned. Konfrontasi has got nothing to do with Australia at all, as your country is just a joke which never has and never will have any significance in Southeast Asia.

BTW, why don't you talk about you so-called "humiliation" to the 200 British, Australian, Gurkha, New Zealander, and Malaysian soldiers killed by Indonesian soldiers during the Konfrontasi?

4) LOL, Indonesia has comfortable deals with US. The giant US mining company Freeport-McMoran has got a 30-years contract to mine copper and gold in Papus province (the biggest gold mine in the world). Freeport is Indonesia's largest taxpayer, and its shareholders included Henry Kissinger and heaps of Democratic and Republican politicians, including President Bush's friends. You are dreaming if you think US will support Australia if this small America-wannabe country try to disturb Indonesia's sovereign territory.

5) Don't engage in binge drinking, it'll cause liver cirrhosis and impotency.

"You should buy shirts from numerous shopping centres"Mr Proud to be Indonesian.Now look me old china,I have no intention of buying anything more from Indonesia.In fact if I never return to that smelly hot place again, it will be to soon.Besides I have enough polishing rags left,that I bought for ten dollars,to last me a life time.I have no doubt the driver who drives my herse will no doubt clean his windscreen with one.I send a box of them off now and then to Unicef,apparently there was enough of them to clothe a whole village in Indonesia.I nearly considered buying twelve dollars worth,but as my good wife remarked at the time.We would have felt terrible driving your economy into hyper inflation.

Now as to the politics of Konfrontasi.Now I won't even comment on what arms or money the Sovit Union supplyed but it wasn't obviously enough.From an Australian perspective the war was very secret.But between 64 and 66 23 Australians were killed and 108 wounded.Their main brief was to patrol the border of Borneo,Sabah,and Saraak.They made frequent incursions onto Indonesian soil and Indonesian K.I.A. was much higher than ours by a long shot.Official figures are only a guesstimate.

I was going to comment on Indonesia's new business enterprise,but you have said it all "Henry Kissenger"What this tells me is someone is getting ripped off.

Oh one other thing, I have no intention of replying to any more of your posts.They are not,in my humble opinion of any educational value.Your posts are just a tirade of insults ref my people and its military and is objectional.If WE were on another forum I would tell you what I really think.

P2BI
well.. you didn't criticize my rather rusty Indo/Malay :) good.

I have to agree with you on one thing. The shopping malls in that area are quite good (Excellent). Though I cannot speak about Indonesia, I can speak of KL and its Air port and Fast train which always make me feel 'third world' here in Melbourne. Nothing in Melbourne compares with KL Central/Twin towers.

Its a bit harsh and 'confrontasi' like though to call our country a 'joke'. I'll regard that as just a bit of sour grapes coming from you over some of the unkind things said to you by other posters.

You don't need to take a line like that. Its better to discuss things in a calm manner.. some of your comments sound like the kind taken from 'Hate sites' which are attacking Islam (Usually Hindu ones)

Lets avoid 'Mine is bigger than yours' in our discussions. The US would definitely help Australia, in spite of any economic interests in your region. But we would never be found attacking Indonesia its plain stupid. We intervened in the matter of East Timor because of 3 reasons I think.

1/ We owe them for their help during the 2nd world war.
2/ The cruelty of the Militia's and TNI and the will of the people was quite clear.Plus UN mandate.
3/ There is lots of OIL in that region.

Your comments about intermarraige should be understood like this:
Do those who marry Muslims have to convert to Islam ? This is universal in Malaysia. If that is so, then its not as 'friendly' as you make out.
Then, you will recall the problems between the Madurese and the Dayaks in Kalimantan. Same problem only further down the track.
Transmigration is always a problem whether its Lebanese Muslims in Australia or Madurese in Kalimantan or Javanese etc in WP.
There will always be a struggle for resources. Tanah, Padi atau minyak tanah.. memang ada pergaduhan/pertandingan.

Dear Proud to be an Indonesian,
Have a lie down, take a valium and read my post again. It is not the words of the Papuan separatist (who has been employed by the TNI at other times) that is interesting but the words of the Indonesian investigator. Pls check out the history of this investigation (the original investigators were all sacked because they concluded the military were involved) before you make over the top statements about Papuan separatists. Also their were telephone intercepts of Indonesian generals talking about military action against Freeport and blaming it on the separatists (this is all on the public record), I suggest you use google before making strong statements in the future

@PHILB:

Au contraire, my dear. I think I have been too nice in my posts about Australia. Australians have displayed outrageously unacceptable arrogance in bullying and trying to dictate our country like some wannabe colonialist. For that, Australia deserve more bitchslapping to return this delusional nation to reality. If WE are in a different forum, I'll tell you what I really think about Australia.

@antigone:
LOL, trusting unsubstantiated rumours that came out of the mouth of the lawyer of a barbaric murderer instead of the conclusive investigation of the FBI and Indonesian police is like trusting the care of your kid to a known paedophile instead of a licenced day-care centre aka there is something seriously wrong with your brain.

I suggest you take some supplements consisting of Gingko biloba and Taurin to improve your brain capacity.

@BOAZ:
No, unlike Malaysia which is an Islamic state, Indonesian non-Muslims do not need to convert to Islam before marrying Muslims. We are overall very relaxed when religion is concerned. Here's some pics of the relaxed lifestyle of Indonesian girls:

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8772&st=1880

BTW, there are almost no Madurese transmigrants in West Papua, they're mostly Buginese, Makasarese, Ambonese, Batak, and a few Javanese.

On East Timor, do not praise yourself as your country got nothing to do with dynamics of East Timor. Your "intervention" is like some wannabe hero who arrive to the scene ages after the action is over. That is the true reason why Australian soldiers decided to go to East Timor, so Australians can have "heroic" self-delusions.

Too bad the East Timorese do not share this delusion, by 2002, they rioted by burning and looting Australian businesses in Dili (Harvey World Travel, ANZ Bank, etc)and threatening to kill Australians. Today, East Timor treated Australia like enemy country due to your robbery of their oil resources.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501021216-397548,00.html

The only reason East Timor became independent is bcoz our president Habibie realised that worthless piece of land is just a drain on our subsidies. Instead of helping improve themselves thorugh the billions of subsidies we give annually, East Timorese instead became subsidy-dependent without showing any signs of advancement, much like the Australian Aborigines. Therefore, Pres Habibie made a brilliant decision to relieve Indonesia of this burden through a referendum.

Australia's only role is to present extra burden for departing Indonesian soldiers who now must provide transportation and accomodation for the newbie Australian soldiers trying to pretend to be heroes. And of course, Australia stole East Timor's small oil reserve. No wonder, considering Australia's criminal origins.

PS: Australia has always been butt of jokes in SE Asia due to its hilarious display of superiority complex that far surpasses the reality of its insignificance in SE Asian affairs. Just ask ex-Malaysian PM Mahathir, he just loves mocking Australia for fun.

Dear P2BI,
Since you are obviously unable to read anything that questions you unfortunate jingoistic position (and yes we have plenty of people like you in Australia) I will spell it out for you.
The telephone intercept was leaked by a person 'close' to the US Embassy in Jakarta and had nothing to do with the Papuan separatist. The initial investigation came to the conclusion the the TNI was behind the attack because Freeport had stopped their payments to the TNI. The US President and the State Dept wanted to renew ties with Indonesia but were prevented by congress because of TNI involvement in the killings. The FBI investigation has been highly politicised, and the Indonesian police involved in the current investigation still think that the TNI were involved but are too scared to say so because it involves US Indonesian relations (plus as you well know people disappear in Indonesia if they go against the wishes of the TNI, you must know about the Indonesian politician who was brutally beaten the other day as he walked out of the parliament just as he finished questioning the military's human rights abuses. The Papuan separtists though highly likely a few were involved taking orders from the TNI are being sacrificed for the sake of Indonesian US military relations.
BTW I hazard a guess you never been to Papua, while I go there regularly, and I see the human rights abuses first hand which are systematic and bordering on genocide. If Indonesia has nothing to hide in Papua why are the International media banned from the region?

P2BI
you certainly are the master of 'colorful' posts :) I enjoy your rants actually... because you give a very different flavor to this forum.
I think you tend to use 'mine is bigger than yours' kinds of words too much.. you will do better and be more accepted to just speak normally without the adjectives like 'Brilliant' decision of Pres Habibi.

On East Timur, I have explained some of the reasons we went there. I probably don't know them all, as often this kind of thing is kept in the inner circle of government. We don't really need to have a little adventure in East Timor to make us feel like hero's.. we have enough memories and traditions from the various wars we have been involved in. Be thankful for our involvement in the last world war, as it probably helped save Indonesia from Japanese domination, and then you would not have had the opportunity to fight the Dutch and form a nation.
I agree that there were many heroic things done by the Indonesian resistance during that time. Though I don't know in detail.

As for how 'we' are regarded in S.E. Asia.. well its not quite as you describe. In some cases or some circles its probably true, but the man in the street still calls me 'Tuan'.. not that I like it or need it.

The educated Malaysians are very approachable and they love interacting with someone from the place where many of them did their study. This includes Muslims also.

Anyway.. my son is bugging me to take him to soccer, so have to cut this short.. keep making contributions, I'm sure that after some more there will be a friendlier feeling at your end ok :)

Moga2 Tuhan memberkati, dan mengiringi P2BI senantiasa.

@antigone:

So it is your word against the conclusive result of joint FBI-Indonesian police investigation? And you expect people to believe you and take your words as truth, just bcoz you said it? While your clearly biased statements are long in fantastic accusations and short in evidence? LOL I hope you are not intending to becoming a lawyer.

For obvious reasons, I absolutely trust the FBI and Indonesian police instead of the words of some anonymous online character.

@BOAZ:

Actually for Indonesians, World War II was a meaningless clash between greedy imperialists, which was exploited successfully by Indonesian nationalists to gain our independence. If you want honesty, WWII indeed was just greedy imperialists fighting each other, although the European war became something else thanks to Hitler's Holocaust.

The Japanese army destroyed 300-year-old Dutch colonialism in three months and train Indonesian youths in military skills, creating embryo of Indonesian army that won the war of independence later on. By collaborating with the Japanese, Sukarno (who was released from decade-long Dutch imprisonment by the Japanese army) managed to spread Indonesian national conciousness to the masses. The American atomic bomb in turn destroyed Japanese domination.

When the British Allied forces tried to re-establish Dutch administration after the surrender, Indonesian army fought back, killing 1200 British and Indian soldiers in one year, while 500 more went missing or deserted. Indonesian fighters managed to kill two British and one Indian generals: Brigadier AWS Mallaby, Brigadier Robert Loden-Symonds (the jumpmaster of the Arnhem section of Operation Market-Garden), and Brigadier Sarbjit Singh Kalha. Due to this heavy losses, the British decided not to disturb Indonesian independence. The Dutch then sent 100,000 soldiers to Indonesia, launching the largest military ops in Dutch history to destroy Indonesian independence. But, after losing 3000 men (and the wasteful diversion of billions in Marshall Aid money originally meant to rebuilt devastated Holland) the Dutch ultimately failed and withdrew in failure in 1949. For this to happen, approximately 60,000 Indonesians gave up their lives!

Indonesian owes its independence to no-one but to itself!

US accused of Freeport cover-up
By Tim Johnston
BBC, Jakarta

The US government has been accused of involvement in covering up the real culprits behind a fatal attack in Indonesia's Papua province in 2002.
Two American teachers and an Indonesian were shot dead near the Freeport mine during an ambush.

An FBI investigation concluded in June that Papuan separatists were behind the murders.

But a group of Indonesian rights groups now say other evidence points towards the involvement of the Indonesian army.

The two teachers and an Indonesian colleague were killed when a group of gunmen ambushed their cars on the way back from a picnic.

In June, the US Justice Department said their investigation had concluded the three were killed by Papuan separatists, but critics believe the Indonesian army was behind the killings.

An initial investigation by the Indonesian police pointed to army involvement, but the army investigated the allegations and found itself innocent.

In a statement released on Wednesday, three Papua-based NGOs accused the US Justice Department of ignoring key pieces of evidence that pointed to the army's involvement.

They say the man accused of the killings, Anthonius Wamang, was co-operating with the military at the time of the killings, and admitted getting ammunition used in the attack from army personnel.

The US Congress has made resumption of assistance to the Indonesian army dependent on a satisfactory outcome from the investigation.

The Indonesian NGOs accused the US government of suppressing the evidence against the army in the interests of resuming co-operation in the war against terror.

The US Embassy in Jakarta declined to comment on the allegations, which threaten to re-open old differences between Washington and Jakarta

One question to PTBI,

Why not give independence to West Papua?

@antigone:

LOL trusting the wild and completely biased accusations of unknown NGOs that are completely without any evidence over the conclusive investigation of FBI, US Justice Department and Indonesian police is like investing all your money in Baghdad stock exchange instead of in a high-return superannuation fund. This just goes to show your immaturity and low level of intelligence.

Face the truth, boy : your beloved Papuan separatists are nothing but a small bunch of barbaric civilian-murdering ape-men who do not have any sense of appreciation for human life, clearly shown by their cold-blooded murder of two American and one Indonesian teacher in 2002.

In an interview with Indonesian journalists in the jungles near PNG border, one OPM separatist "chief" Kelly Kwalik boastingly admitted he ordered the 2002 shootings:

http://www.liputan6.com/view/1,118203,1,0,1140973461.html

What a barbaric pig this guy is. I strongly urge Indonesian law enforcement authorities to arrest or kill this individual to prevent this criminal from committing further violence against civilians.

For antigone, I suggest you start develop some feelings of empathy for the families of all the civilians that have been mercilessly murdered by the cruel Papuan separatist barbarians. Imagine if a member of your family is raped and murdered by one of these barbaric thugs. These uncivilised Papuan separatists deserve no sympathy.

@coyote:

Why should we give "independence" to a perpetually integral part of Indonesian Republic? We Indonesians will fight to the last drop of blood to maintain the integrity of our country. Nobody, especially a minor country of stooges like Australia, can ever bully or intimidate us to compromise the unity of our God-given sacred motherland that our forefathers shed their blood for.

The Indonesian Government has so far transmigrated about 400,000 Muslim citizens into the native lands of the West Papuan province with 18 major settlements. With 12 of these not far from the Papuan New Guinea Border. Their next agenda is??

Note PTBI attitude toward his use of 'pigs' in his last post. The staple protein diet of the native people is pork and this is considered unclean to Muslim minds. So you can imagine what is happening the pigs in West Papua as the Muslim population occupies the native peoples territory. Those that resist their occupation and the destruction of their pigs will be shot as resistance fighters.

Note his arrogance in this statement: "Nobody, especially a minor country of stooges like Australia, can ever bully or intimidate us to compromise the unity of our God-given sacred motherland that our forefathers shed their blood for."

Is he spoiling for a confrontation with Australia. Note how he removes the God given motherland of the native people from them and believes it is his motherland. Absolute lies and hypocrisy. Typical of Muslim brainwashed terrorists.

LOL philo you are one desperate retard. Again, you try to provoke religious hatred by silly Muslim-baiting attempt. Your taste for religious conflict goes to show what a disgustingly backward person you are.

1) I am not a Muslim, I am a Christian Catholic who greatly enjoy eating pork. There are around 35 million Christian Indonesians, most of them are Javanese. There are much more Christians in Indonesia than there are people in Australia.

2) Actually West Papua has the second-largest pig farming industry in the Indonesia after Bali. No wonder, considering the native Papuan culture is far more protected by Indonesian law compared with Melanesian countries which are basically failed states.

3) It is Indonesian missionaries who is the most successful in spreading the word of Jesus Christ to the animistic West Papuan people. The Catholic archbishops of Jayapura and Merauke are both ethnic-Javanese. The Indonesian national hero who perished in the anti-Dutch confrontation to retake West Papua is a Catholic, Commodore Josaphat (Yos) Sudarso.

4) If Australians mind their own affairs, we Indonesia couldn't care less about you. However, if Australians try to mess around with Indonesia's sovereign territory, we will exercise our right of self-defence and we shall fight you to our last drop of blood.

5) Native Papuans are all Indonesian citizens with equal rights and responsibilities with other Indonesians.

6) "Pig" is actually a more common insult in "Christian" countries than in Muslim countries.

PTBI,
Your claim to be a follower of Christ is spurious because you mouth-off blood lust and violence against Australia and its people. The fact is you know nothing of the attitudes of Christ and his teachings. You are a religious terrorist following the way of Cain, a liar and deceiver. A person unknown to the way of Jesus Christ, who threatened none, or drew a sword on no one, not even His enemies.

You need to repent and learn reconciliation as He taught

For those still following this thread you ought to read the report done by the Yale University on Human rights abuses committed by the Indonesian Military upon the indiginous population of West Papua. [PDF Link below]

Women and girls raped and mutilated with breasts cut off and their bodies dumped at sea. The Indonesian army on human rights rate in the same catogory on genocide as Megabie.

The document attached was prepared in 2002. PTBI considers himself Christian since disclosing this it is evidence he is nothing more than a deceiver and operator of the most evil kind. He knows nothing of the attitudes of Christ.

http://www.law.yale.edu/outside/html/Public_Affairs/426/westpapuahrights.pdf

@philo

Your claims to be a follower of Christ is spurious because you mouth-off hatred between different religions (Islam vs Christianity) and ethnicities (Papuan vs non-Papuan). The fact is you know nothing of Christ and His teachings. You are a terrorist following the way of Cain, a liar and deceiver.

You engage in vicious hate and lies campaign against Indonesia, and try to deny Indonesians the legitimate and inalienable right of self-defence. We Indonesians have the God-given right of defending ourselves against Australian aggression as Australia has the right to defend itself against foreign aggression.

You are NOT a Christian, philo, you are a worshipper of Satan. You embrace Satan's ideas of secterian and religious hatred.

For those still following this thread, you ought to realise that philo's so-called "report" of supposed "genocide" is nothing but a pack of lies, a completely biased propaganda by people intent on destroying Indonesia.

The sole source of this propaganda-piece, prepared by a person who have never even been anywhere near Indonesia, is a British member of the old PKI (Indonesian Communist Party) who are vengeful over the banning of her old party after these godless commies tried to violently overthrow Indonesian govt twice in 1965. Curiously, this same person was writing English-language propaganda on uniting West Papua with Indonesia before 1965.

Now wonder this propaganda "report" has zero credibility and was dumped as rubbish by Australian and US govt, both of whom are so eager to make good relations with Indonesian govt and military, both important allies in the war on terrorism.