Bosk. Dictation is different to inspiration. The closest Judaism/ Christianity comes to Islam is the 10 Commandments. Islam believes the whole Quran is like the 10 Commandments. According to surah 43:2, it is the ‘Mother of all Books.’ It is considered to be an exact replica of the ‘Eternal Tablets’ which exist in heaven (surah 85:22).

In the Quran Allah tells Muslims 100's of times to obey the prophet and follow his example.

-53yo polygamist marrying a 6 y.o. - consumating it when she was 9.

-Jesus - man and woman become one flesh - divorce prohibited except for infidelity. This was shocking to everyone hearing it. There was no accomodation to the prevailing norms. Then add the words of non-violence against agression, that he was the Messiah etc, were words that got him tortured to death slowly. Please honestly continue comparing Jesus and Mohammed you'll discover the point I'm making.

There are no 'Babylonians' left, Jews are not in exile in Baghdad anymore. All the injunctions to kill in Allah's name for the spread of Islam are open ended they apply at all times, they are an eternal order.

King David murdered the husband of the woman he wanted, no one believes God orders this even though it is written in the Bible. Because there is context of place and time. This is entirely absent in the Quran.

As for history, of course the writers were members of a culture, place and time. This is the main point I repeat about the Quran and the Bible.

E.Doherty believes Jesus never existed, based on assumptions including (quoting from him)

"To believe that ordinary Jews were willing to bestow on any human man, no matter how impressive, all the titles of divinity and full identification with the ancient God of Abraham is simply inconceivable."

And so it would be: UNLESS it actually happened!

Jesus should have been more written about after refusing to accept Tacitus and Josephus. There is no sign of what Doherty THINKS ought to be written about him.

I won't dignify the charge of selectivity with a response.

Numbat- did you even read what I posted? It is quite clear the 'father' religions reject the 'son' in my post so just being a christian rejecting Islam you fit the profile perfectly.

It is unbelievable what you say about Christianity being a completely new religion - do you know anything about Christianity? At all? I suspect that you really don't. Go look at your bible. Why did the christian church decide to make three quarters of their holy book the Jewish Old Testament? Read Dei Verbum:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

Why does the Roman Catholic trace its tradition and more importantly its authority as being handed down from Adam through Abraham and Moses, etc if it isn't claiming heredity through Judaism?

The connection is as plain as the nose on your face. Did the Christians change Judaism to suit their own tastes. Yes radically. Do they claim heredity through Judaism. Hell yes! Jesus was the Messiah. That is a Jewish concept and word. You know zip about christianity.

Do your research on the Samaritans more thoroughly, you are obviously quoting a Jewish source as they are the ones that claim that the Samaritans aren't really israelites.

Try these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan

http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Shen2004.pdf

on the DNA of Samaritans: to sum up Samaritans share the same male DNA with the Jews and their female DNA is Iraqi, Jewish and Palestinian in origin. The Samaritans had a policy that men could marry non-samaritans but the woman had to marry samaritans Which explains why there is more diversity in the female DNA. So there, their DNA proves it.

http://www.houseofdavid.ca/sam_mont.htm

Your insistence that all other religions are pagans is a perfect match for Islam believing all other religious adherents are infidels. You prove my point that Christians and Moslems are father and son,

Coach- you are unbelievable, you have not paid attention to a single one of the criticisms of the Christian religion made on this list except to shout 'Anathema!' and then you accuse Fellow-Human of doing precisely what you do! Questioning your own Bible is not something you do.

Coach says Mohammed isn't entitled to the heredity of the Judaic religion, something so laughable when a Christian claims it. Or are you a Jew Coach? What is your entitlement to the Jewish patrimony?

If generations of prophets claimed divine inspiration from God then why not Mohammed? Its only Christianity and Islam that I know of who insist they're the last prophet/mangod. Its a blatant attempt to force their doctrine supreme for all time. Father/Son-pidgeon pair.

Martin says that Christianity is our heritage, our ancestors bequeathed all this good stuff for us. The persecutions arn't good stuff and other trains of thought are equally part of our heritage. Many of my ancestors called themselves 'agnostic'-I can trace that back five generations at least. They believed in a higher power but didn't like Christianity. In an atmosphere of persecution of other religions what else could they do? I have Freemasons in my ancestry-which is a different religion IMO, grandparents and greatgrandmother who were christian scientists who don't believe in Hell, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists and Presbyters but interestingly the children who took on a different religion to their parents are in the majority. I am related to St Thomas a'Beckett, slain by Anglicans for his Roman Catholicism, St Domenic de Guzman who was instrumental in the crusade against the Cathars and in setting up the order that facilitated the Inquisition, Torquemada the Inquisitor, and a woman accused of witchcraft in 1641. Why were they fighting if not against different heritages? And we're all related to pagans-they're our heritage too.

Christians aren't pacifists, the Roman Catholic Church believes in 'Just War'. Their have been christians on this list who think Jesus was a warrior. Martin you haven't contradicted them directly. If you believe Jesus was a pacifist then become a Quaker, Christian Scientist or a Seventh Day Adventist.

"In the Quran Allah tells Muslims 100's of times to obey the prophet and follow his example." The NT tells you 100's of times to follow Jesus.

Babylonians? Plenty of Christians claim their spirit is alive and needs to be wiped out violently.

Aziliz now we're getting somewhere.A pacifist to me is someone who is prepared to be subjugated or someone who really wants someone else to do the fighting for them. So by this definition Jesus certainly wasn't one Aziliz.

Jesus tells us he is

* "The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

* "I am the vine and you are the branches. Anyone who lives in me and I in them with bear much fruit."

* "I am the Good Shepherd who lays his life down for his sheep."

* "'Before Abraham ever was; I am.' And they picked up stones to cast at him."

Five Pillars of Islam “There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his final prophet”

We should compare the kind of person we would become if 1) We were genuine disciples of Jesus 2) We were genuine disciples of Mohammed.

You already know my conclusions so I ask: look at the Gospels then read the Q and the Sunnah Hadiths (reports contained in Ishaq/Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim). If you take pride in your scholarship at all, if you honestly believe you're a person who seeks the truth then please for all of us, report back what you find.

You would be doing us a great service Aziliz, and I know that is what you want; to be someone who directs us to the truth.

Aziliz: The Old testament is full of Christ,especially Leviticus. As well there are over 300 prophecies about His first coming ALL that's ALL or EVERYONE of them have been fulfilled. Then came this lying, murdering, raping, pedophile who claims his mindless bloodthirsty terrorist hand book supercedes the Bible - what utter, complete garbage and total nonsense and absolute blasphemy.
Yes Christians use both Testaments, yes the Old Testament was written by Israelites. Yes the majority of the New Testament was written by Israelites. That is God's doing and I am not going to take Him to task for using them. Fancy here we have the Eternal God who wrote through the Israelites two Testaments. Then some clown said that this All-Knowing, All-Wise Creator God made a massive , or allowed massive mistakes and errors what inane inept stupid thinking.
Again anyone with half a brain can see that Judaism and Christianity are completely different ways of worship. That's one reason the Jews of today will not accept the New Testament because - wait for it Aziliz - IT IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT! Christ bought a new way of course I talk about the very Son of God not some pagan moslem prophet with the same name. If one does not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then one is worshipping a false god. Those who worship false gods are pagans. Now aziliz that not difficult is it? numbat

Numie & Martin.

Quote from Numie "Jews of today will not accept the New Testament because - wait for it Aziliz - IT IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT!" Totally wrong I'm afraid. It has been conservatively estimated that 90-95% of the teachings of Jesus are merely paraphrases of various portions of the Hebrew Testament. And By the way the Gospels have NOTHING to do with the reasons that orthodox or liberal jews reject Jesus.
There are two reasons.
1) They do NOT believe that Jesus was God.
2) They believe that the Messiah is to reign as a righteous king & protect Israel from it's enemies. Jesus did neither of those things therefore as far as Jews are concerned he was not the messiah.

A quote from Martin "A pacifist to me is someone who is prepared to be subjugated or someone who really wants someone else to do the fighting for them. So by this definition Jesus certainly wasn't one Aziliz." Are you joking? Martin Luther King was NOT anything like your description. He was prepared to let people belt him senseless yet not retaliate or do what they wished. He stood up for the rights of his people & yet did nothing to stop the assaults of others upon himself. How does that square with your definition? it doesn't.
Your remark about Mohammed's writing not having a historical context is just plain silly. Muhammed is a historical person correct? Any historical person has a historical context correct? Therefore Mohammed has a historical context. QED

Now let's go back to Numie. I have already shown why Mohammed was NOT a pedophile Numie. I hope both of you do realise we are supposed to be discussing Jesus here. Muhammed is off topic! Please confine yourself to the topic at hand.
And may I please ask both of you, since most of your arguments concern historical arguments you actually learn some history.
One final point. Martin your arguments concerning inspiration versus dictation I will deal with in my next post. It's interesting but unfortunately totally wrong!