Froggie et al,

An intelligent person seeking truth would certainly read and consider a book that has the historical qualifications of : the bible; UNIQUE qualifications that set the Scriptures apart from other book ever written.

Do your research and stop wasting our time for your quick instant fixes. Get the facts, know the consequences, than decide. Don’t rely on other people's misconceptions.

We certainly don't want to ram the truth into you - our mission is to tell (not sell).

More people abandoned Jesus' teachings than accepted it. Even Him - the greatest man that ever lived - could not convince everyone. You’re in the majority pal.

Christianity is not for the faint hearted, if you want a feel-good-hug-the-next-person religion join such a cult; christianity is definitely not a spectators sport either, it requires toughness and discipline.

And if any other christian on OLO tries to coerce you in anyway please let me know.

Christianity is not what we do or not do – it is who we are ‘in Christ’ – it is a coat we wear with pride, having been saved from eternal death, we have freedom, hope and real joy. (not guilt and fear like you think)

Froggie, the problem people like coach and co face, is that they are fighting their brothers in god. Their religion has exactly the same god as those they hate. That shows you how really bent and dangerous they are.

These people, are those that only sit in the pews, then rant about how brilliant they are. They have never studied at seminaries, traveled the world studying ancient script, been ordained, or are even widely read these subjects.

You will note that they attribute their knowledge to their minds, never put forth fact, never justify nor provide evidence of what they say, except by quoting passages from a version of a book that was rewritten in the last 100 years to suit their needs. (read USA evangelistic money making)

Yet they abuse and try to ridicule those that have spent a great deal of their lives traveling and studying this subject in depth, from all angles and perspectives to try and understand it properly, not just from the back of the pews. With all the evidence they are provided with, all they can do is jump out of their revolving door, go metronome click clack and then jump back in, hoping no one will realise how stupid their statements are.

Note the venom when I mentioned the holy anointing oil, yet they lack the intellect to read the works that they blindly follow, to see that I actually speak the truth.

If it were true, these are the type of people that would kill their jesus as soon as he opened his mouth, because they wouldn't recognise him and would reject anything he said. Because he would denounce their grubby material ways of life, as he did in the past, according to the story.

So no wonder he wouldn't come back. Would you, knowing what was waiting for you, violent despotic ignorant warmongers, who denounce everyone and everything that won't accept their fallacies and care nothing for their gods other forms of life, except to gorge themselves at other life forms expense.

Coach.

"History revisionism is were you and your mob come in. Christ was fiction, Mohammed never existed, what holocaust? Stolen generation…get out of here! "

That’s real funny, cos I always thought that "what holocaust? Stolen generation?" was the province of those certain of Jesus and the moh's existence.

Anyhoo, there are a number of interesting articles in this weeks new scientist on religion as an evolutionary advantage (red rag to a bull I know). It seems the release of endorphins associated with repetitive movements characteristic of religious observances (swaying, chanting, flagellation and yes, even kneeling), is amplified relative to the size of the group in which they occur. So when 'three or more gather in my name, I am there' should read 'you will get higher in a larger group. The simultaneous experience is of evolutionary advantage because a coherent social structure is more conducive to human reproduction and successful rising of offspring than a lack of society.

Marx was essentially although coincidentally correct, however he got the drug wrong, religion is not the opium but the naturally produced endorphins of the masses. One can only imagine how high you would be at hillsong or a Shiite flagellation.

Pity people had to go and institutionalise it.

Incidentally, the production of endorphins during religious observances and their amplification as a result of shared experience are observed under controlled and repeated conditions, not that the principal of truth of evidence will be of any interest.

Ha-ha. When I previewed this I misspelt Shiite and was told to remove the profanity.

coach & genesis
I can understand your reluctance to even consider the arguments against your faith. After all what are the alternatives?

Could God have made a mistake? Unthinkable!

Could the bible [authored by God] be mistaken? Impossible!

But there is another alternative. That coach & genesis are wrong in their interpretation.

Consider this. Is it even conceivable that you could both be wrong? That your interpretation of the bible & its passages could be mistaken? That you shouldn't even be Christian Fundamentalists or Evangelicals? Or are you both committed to the idea that you are both infallible? If you accept the idea that you are both human & therefore could be wrong then perhaps you should consider any evidence against your beliefs.

Remember any counter argument just means that your fundamentalist or evangelical interpretation is wrong! Not necessarily that God is wrong. So perhaps you shouldn't just dismiss arguments you don't like because they are against YOUR interpretations of the bible.
Or is the God that you truely worship named EGO & not Jesus at all.
Just a thought

hee hee. tut tut. It seems those of you who are not beleivers dont actually read any of the posts properly of those of us who are. You only read and see what you want. Bosk...okay, if thats what you want to think. Sure. I could be wrong. I believe I am right. As much as youd like to think I took this path cos someone blindly led me, then thats okay. You see, you have never been on the side Im on right now. I, however, have been on the side youre on. I too was once an ubeleiver. BUt I was the one that opened my mind. Discovered the truth. And want to share it with those that dont know. Not cos I want to ram it down their throats, but because I actually care!! Shocking I know. You really dont know what youre missing. This conversation is going around in circles.

its not being easy....thanks for that giggle. :o)

Genesis
Quote "you see, you have never been on the side Im on right now." Actually Genesis I was a fundamentalist christian. I accepted Jesus as my Lord & Saviour, was washed in the blood, prayed the sinners prayer, accepted I was a sinner saved by grace & whatever other euphamism you want to use. But I found that quite a number of those same fundamentalist authors were totally wrong. Not by reading some anti-christian expert but by reading primary sources. That's old documents to you. But then most fundamentalists don't know because ALL they ever read are authors who believe the same things they do.

You also say when you found the truth you changed. I presume you mean when you examined the facts. Did those facts include a study of Ancient & Classical history of the Middle East? From many authors both fundamentalist, evangelical, liberal & secular? I did that sort of study. That's why I ended up leaving. I don't think you did though. I think you read works by Josh MacDowell or Lee Strobel, decided they can't be wrong & changed. But then you were probably born into an evangelical or fundamentalist family to begin with. Am OI right?
I know your world VERY well. If you are really so concerned with TRUTH then you NEVER reach the point when you can say "I've found ABSOLUTE TRUTH now I don't need to search any further".
Why can't you say that? Because you are still human & could still be wrong. Evidence might still come to light which convinces you that you're wrong. So you keep searching. Here's one last chance to read the other side. If you truely are concerned with the search for the truth that is.
http://blondguys.net/members/articles/edoherty/review-1.htm