Mr Donnelly's analysis is so typical of lazy pseudo-Conservatives who oppose something just because that nebulous group known as the "liberal-left" support it. So if the liberal-left support the truth of calculus in mathematics, Mr Donnelly will be arguing against it.

This sort of shallow analysis is an embarrassment to conservatives everywhere. Conservatism is about supporting and maintaining the status quo. We are a liberal, democratic and multicultural nation. We are not a monocultural banana republic. A few riots on a beach is hardly reason enough to overturn decades of political consensus.

Sorry, but I do not wish Australia to be part of Mr Donnelly's monocultural social experiment.

Finally, if Mr Donnelly thinks Judeo-Christian is the same as Anglo-Celtic, he should remember which part of the world Jesus Christ came from. He might wish to invest $20 and buy himself a copy of William Dalrymple's "From the Holy Mountain" and discover just how Middle Eastern Christianity really is.

On that note, Merry Orthodox Christmas!

I'm a non white teacher and the last time I looked my class comprised 2 out of 5 students who did not come from an Anglo background. I've got no problems with teaching good values and citizenship but these can't be tied to one ethnic group.(anglo's)

And hey, Does White mean never having to say you're ethnic?

Kev Donelly is so out of touch with the real world of teaching its not funny.

Cos it might mean you’ll have explain your cultural and linguistic uniqueness and strewth, who’s the expert on this huh? Barry Humphreys? Kath and Kim? Russell Coyte?

And as far as Australian history goes, do you want me to teach using a balanced or a biased approach? I usually tell students what I think Australian history was about and then let them decide how to interpret it. I don't shove culture down their throats, they already walk in the gate every morning with their own understandings about culture and cultural difference and this is what we work with.

I'll post some more of my opinions on this no doubt - but for now let me say this. I do teach students about racism. Not as a precursor to blaming but as an important part of their life skills and social education. In a rapidly globalising world it would be stupid not to. But it seems Donnelly considers this to be PC.

Go figure

Irf... I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but suggesting that Kevin's analysis is 'shallow' is not really doing justice to the obvious research he has done.

He has examined the curriculum policy of a number of left wing education unions and demonstrated that they are basically working against the interests of the dominant culture.

The important questions are:

1/ Why ?
2/ With what goal ?

Well, going back into my reading of Marxist 'theology' and method, I find a lot to take issue with in their attitude, but one main method of achieving the socialist revolution is to undermine all representations of nationalistic and cultural solidarity.

The approach to Multiculturalism does just that.

Your criticized and wrote off Danny Nalia's piece in about 2 lines, suggesting he didn't 'define' Multiculturalism. Well, I'd say he has a rather good definition in his own experience in being sued by the Islamic Council of Victoria over remarks which have since proven to be basically true, though a bit generalized.

http://www.immi.gov.au/multicultural/australian/definition.htm

1. It accepts and respects the right of all Australians to express and share their individual cultural heritage within an overriding commitment to Australia and the basic structures and values of Australian democracy.

2.It also refers specifically to the strategies, policies and programs that are designed to:

3. make our administrative, social and economic infrastructure more responsive to the rights, obligations and needs of our culturally-diverse population;
4. promote social harmony among the different cultural groups in our society; and
optimise the benefits of our cultural diversity for all Australians.

Now..taking just point 3 alone. Ask yourself this. IF... being more "responsive" to the 'rights and obligations' of say Muslims is in conflict with existing Law or CULTURE.. then what should happen ?

Simple. The dominant culture and law has to win. If not, there will be racial tension. So, this would be one reason why 'you' cannot have more than one wife, but under Islam you can have 4.

I see no reason to accomodate every variation of ‘other’ religions and cultures by our emergency services.

Dear Ranier
you never need to present a biased view of early Australian History, you should present it warts and all, and never gloss over the failings or cruelty of many of our forebears.
BUT.. you should point out also, the good will, the defense of indigenous peoples interests by some of the Churches, you can also show the abuse. You should also include in your overview the ills of the indigenous societies, and their wars and cruelty to each other.

It might help also to outline some of the cruelties experienced by those same 'whites' in the old country, that they were sent here as a punishment, and a range of other historical facts which will give the correct 'balance'.

In fact, you should include for example, the Treaty of Waitangi where the different wording in the english version and the Maori versions meant the Chiefs did not know they were ceding 'absolute sovereignty' to the british crown, but then.. you should also mention that the Ngapuhi obtained muskets from the whites and proceede to slaughter their Maori enemy tribes.

So, a 'balanced' and unbiased approach to history is one which will clearly demonstrate that there was nothing 'worse' about the White settlement than any other clash of cultures or tribes, then, students can clearly see that while we are not without moral blemish, we still do have a predominant culture and it is Anglo. It matters not that the percentage of your students are only 5 white to 2 non white. What matters is the overall cultural heritage of the country, which you should teach as a loyal Aussie.

If we used your logic "There are 2 non white students and 5 white" to justify not teaching the white culture, u are just saying "If we can get a few more non whites here, they will determine the culture" and I think there might be some resistance to that :)

The problem, Irfan and Ranier, is that rantings by 'the Donnelleys' of the tribe are published and dopes like us are drawn in.

Further, he may be 'out of touch' but his narrowness represents much public opinion and public opinion is swayed by his semblance of logic
I can just see leading educators rushing to revise their precious syllabi because of Cronulla! And surely, Australia's multi-cultural seeds were planted after World War II at the very latest. Further, I sense that most cultures are 'riddled with racism, inequality and social injustice' and I believe that education can be one of the tools to counter those things (as the writer appears to concede in his opening paragraph). And oh no, not the AEU again? Dr Donnelly must be one of the few people associated with education that knows of this organisation or cares one bit about its policies. It is such an influential organisation I am sure every staff meeting will commence in 2006 with readings from their august papers. Sorry AEU!

The logic line ends with a summary that seems to refute much of what the article proclaimed because I agree so strongly with it and none of what preceded it! He wrote, 'separatism ... nourishes prejudice, magnifies differences and stirs antagonisms'. That is why I will forever proclaim that if the society needs schools, and we do in some form (but not what we have), that the only way to ameliorate differences is through a single system (preferably conducted by the federal government and preferably with the attendance age lowered to recognise the new world of work and educational opportunity).

So Ranier, do your good work in the knowledge that our society is so much richer for multiculturalism; and Irfan and Ranier, maintain your watch on the writings of Dr Donnelly... and keep letting him know when you do not agree with him because others stroke his ego. Unfortunately, his joys come, like the appalling shock-jocks, through posts like mine that are probably equally as biased as his ... but at least I know it!

"Whereas past generations felt part of a wider community and believed that hard work would be rewarded, recent generations see only inequality and their right to be supported"

Is there actually any real evidence whatsoever to support this claim ? Things like number of hours worked have been on the increase for years, which really go against the idea that people don't want to work hard. Is there also any evidence that larger numbers of people from previous generations felt part of a wider community than today ?

In addition, even if people are getting lazier in some aspect, I don't see how multiculturalism education is playing any significant part in that.

While there are some good and caring teachers in both the public and private systems, the taxpayer funded, mediocre state schools are where most of the authoritarian-Left members of the profession wash up. Aided by a similarly minded head office bureaucracy and the extreme unlikelihood of being sacked, what a wonderful way to push their political views!

Meanwhile, more and more children leave school functionally illiterate and innumerate. Perhaps this means that, even if they are the slightest bit interested in the ravings of some frustrated little dictator obsessed with multiculturalism and racism, the message will go no further

Is multiculturalism really taught in schools? If it is then every student should have some understanding of the differences between all the cultures that make up Australian society. But it seems like what is really being taught are moral principles upheld by nearly all cultures rather than what distinguishes one culture from another. The need to affirm common moral principles for the sake of harmony and peace is understandable but ultimately causes greater mutual ignorance on all sides.

To truly gain appreciation and respect of all the different cultures that comprise our society we need to acknowledge the differences and not just keeping affirming what we have in common. This can only be achieved if each unique culture is taught objectively from an historical and religious perspective. We need to be able to understand why each culture is unique and not just how it is unique. If we can understand the religious heritage that has helped shape each culture then we are better prepared to respond to those among us who are racist and also those who use the charge of racism as a cover or defense for having aspects of their religion told in a way they disagree with.

Kev has sunk to new lows here.
He would have to be one of the laziest "Experts" I've ever read. Oh that's right he isn't he just says he is. Kiev’s a rather one eyed supporter of the white Anglo supremacist sect and if he was thirty years younger I sure he would have been in that crowd on the beach. His lack of ability to see past his own POV means he’ll never see racism or sexism or the wrongness of many of his ideas , I’m sure some are right but I’m betting it was a fluke. Kev Western Culture has come to dominate the world because of it’s ability to change, backward facing conservatives like your self are part of the problem not the solution to culture harmony. One of the fundamental ideas of democracy is it’s strength comes from diversity of ideas not a bunch of clones. By the way Judeo-Christian traditions is one of those fluff statements like family values. Christians like to make believe that our culture is based on Judeo-Christian tradition, this is nonsense that only Christians would swallow. It’s a sort of urban myth that most Christians except and don’t question. If you have a close look however you find it is exactly the opposite and our culture has emerged despite the corrosive effects of our Judeo-Christian conservative elements. The version of the ten commandments used most by Christians (remember the goats milk one) only three of them are reflected in our laws. Theses three (murder, stealing, lying) are present in every value system on the planet. Time to put some reality into your life Kev

I think the truth should be taught.

Skilled immigrants are the darlings of the capitalist system because they shun workplace reforms, like to work longer and longer hours, have a distaste for strikes and will provide the push for capital gains in the property market in already over populated cities. They already have been educated at a poorer country's expense and many have funds available to inject into the Australian economy.

Refugee immigrants are the darlings of the socialist because they can use them as pin up people for their own ego massaging causes. Of course all left ideals are eroded by mass migration. The more migration and the more educated a society becomes the less able it is to be sustain an egalitarian society, social benefits and environmental health. So why support the migration of some who have only an underclass destiny is cruel and selfish when it is only to make some loppy left feel like heroes.

Anglo people that populated these shores were mainly from oppressive backgrounds and fought for worker rights, a fair go for everyone, equality and religous freedoms. They were the backbone of the labor party and the backbone of Australia's economic success. They voted for aboriginal rights and voted for a more diverse society through immigration. They worked side by side with people from all over on projects like the Snowy Mountain scheme and called them nicknames often from affection but now labelled racist.

Such committment for a fair society is not recognised because these often colourful people are seen to lack culture, fine dining appreciation, have beer bellies and straight talk. I am not born here but am entertained by, and love, the raw Aussie spirit. I hate to see is disappear. I can also say they are to be trusted like no other.

But boring robotic university clones spat out of the system stripped of any unique personality, who denigrate these true blue Aussies, seem to think they are the ones to have culture. HA HA

Thats what we should teach kids. The truth.

Ha

At last some common sense.

Kevin Donnelly is enunciating the thoughts of many. He does so eloquently, forthrightly and without vilification or unjustified criticism.

Although I'd contend western society hasn't just drawn from the Hebrew it has also, as Mr Donnelly's writing shows, drawn heavily from the Greek.

Verdant and Keith, anytime you'd like to come in and present to my class let me know, I'd welcome you're input.

Be warned, kids like to ask questions like 'why do you think yours is the only perspective?' (Its whata good education should do)

You talk about telling the truth?

Whose truth?

Your truth and the truth that deliberately dis-remembers whole chunks of Australian social history?

In other words let’s trot out the Disney land version of Australian history, where Skippy the bush kangaroo saves the day. Puleeeze!

I've often wondered about what a true blue Aussie is, looks like, and believes. But it seems that like Bunyips they seem to be elusive and mythical.

Let’s face it, what you want kids to learn is your myopic and scared sh*itless version of Australia - where xenophobia is a virtue and benign racism is dressed up sheep’s clothing- just to keep you comfortable with your own fears and justifications for these fears.

Teaching people skills without giving them a vision for a better future - a vision based on common values is only training. I teach and so do thousands of teachers across the nation. You obviously didn't have one of these teachers. My deepest sympathy for you. You got short-changed big time.

Donelly is an intellectual dinosaur and a failed education bureaucrat looking for political kudos.

Multicultural education happens regardless of whether syllabus or policy dictates. It’s a reality of schools and the multicultural, multi-ethnic populations within ‘our’ schools.

Get over it!

Rainer,

Engaging in personal abuse is fine by me. I live in South Sydney, am used to it. I don't do it myself, not a good look but I understand your reasons. Well I don't really. But never mind.

You don't seem to be very tolerant judging by your last post. You also don't seem to understand a POV common among many Australians like myself. I am concerned that you are teaching children to be honest. I have no problem whatever your personal view is but when people are exposing such intolerance to children it concerns me.

You almost justify the POV of the original thread author. Well not almost. You do.

Yes I tolerate other cultures but I do not patronise them. They are equal in the fact they are important to those within that culture but also are not normally important to those oustide it. Otherwise we would all be the same culture wouldn't we?. Everyone thinks their own culture is superior, it is normal. That is why they fight to save it.

As a child I was never even taught the term racist. Never taught the term multiculture. Never taught about differences. Very little history about anything. Not a major subject in primary, an elective in high school. So I left school not even realising that my little pappadum darling of the time was from some sort of strange and foreign world because no one lectured my about how he was different. He was just a boy with parents who cooked weird food to me.

I prefer the way I was taught. So much simpler when we were all Australians. Just back then we had very odd parents. Dutch friends parents walked around the house nude, Italian friends parents would make smelly food and kids laughed at my mum's attempt at baking but no one ever said Australians were so hideous as you make out. So we all got on without denigrating anyone, just everyone's weird parents.

Verdant, sorry to offend but for me it wasn't abuse - funny how defence of a point by lefties like me is turned into an attack on the precious sensibilities of those who espouse very intolerant views. A political correct conservative right position is ok it seems.

As I have said in another post, I have never really been comfortable with multiculturalism. Perhaps it is my age and upbringing or perhaps I see very real fractures in society when it becomes policy to multifacet something when we had problems enough prior to it.
The White Australia Policy has gone and good riddance. I was educated at a time when it was in its death throes and remember Italians, Aboriginals, Greeks etc in the school or playground and thought nothing of interacting. I rarely saw any ethnic based problems, just the normal problems kids had with kids.
It has taken the heavy hand of beaurocracy with Multiculturalism, perhaps to balance the devastating PR of The White Australia Policy, to elevate racism, tokenism and every other ism you care to mention. One of the things that bothers me is the racism debate and the term 'reverse racism' as if racism is, in effect, a monopoly held by Anglo-Australia.
No doubt the debate will rage on and achieve what all attempts at social engineering achieve. Polarise the camps to the point where the opposite is achieved. I hope I am wrong.

French society is good example of monoculturalism in a Western democracy and the Paris riots made Cronulla and its aftermath look like a child's tantrum. And while I am not familiar with the French education system, I would guess that the glorification of French history forms a part of it. And yet France is not immune to racial and social conflict. Nor are other monocultural societies. And if we look at monocultural societies which are reasonably stable, all I can say is that I'd rather live in multicultural Australia, warts and all, than somewhere like Singapore.

Kevin Donnelly says:

"The 1993 Australian Education Union's curriculum policy argued that children must be taught that they "are living in a multicultural and class-based society that is diverse and characterised by inequality and social conflict"."

What is wrong with that? It's a reflection of reality. Whatever the faults of the AEU, that statement is hard to refute.

Btw, I was in primary school in the Whitlam period and finished high school in Fraser's last year in office. Never was I taught that all cultural mores were morally equal. Anyhow, how much longer are Whitlam-haters like Donnelly going to blame the 1970s for social ills?

"I rarely saw any ethnic based problems, just the normal problems kids had with kids."

The thing is those greeks did. It all depends on your POV when your not at the end of it, it's easy to past it off as kids being kids.

When is the public going to see that it is not what you are taught at school that shapes the individual - Its how you are treated that makes the difference!.

Children are not being taught about inequity and unfairness – they are experiencing it.

Children learn by example.

Jolanda,

Does this mean we cannot count on your support to get rid of 'madrassas'?

Goodness me...you're not serious Kevin. Some kids might still go to schools where there is only one ethnic group represented, but those kids would be in the minority (excuse the pun).

I agree that it's important that kids understand "their responsibilities in a civil society". I'm just not sure how the basic tenet of "look out the window children, there are lots of different people in the world" is at odds with that.

And I'm not sure I understand the point you're making: Australian culture ISN'T "riven with privilege and marginalisation"? Since when? Did the working poor get a yacht for Christmas? I'm all for celebrating what unites us, but I don't pretend that the community we live in is something it's not just to make myself feel better.

When I was travelling in Northern Ireland a few years ago, I met several people my age (in their early 20s) who despite a relative cease-fire were brutally attached to a partisan standpoint in a way that I wouldn't have expected. Surely that is partly about an ongoing indoctrination, which happens not only through their schooling but also through their interactions with parents, peers and also their understanding of the messages relayed by their leaders (both elected and made).

It's true that what is real is that there has been a dominant Anglo-Celtic culture in this country. But to ignore people's differing experience of what has occurred in our country's history is surely the basis of as much tension and grievance as to attempt to understand the variety of histories we hold in this country.

Education might be the magic bullet (and I believe that it is), but let's not hold schools wholly and individually responsible for the development of children into responsible adults. Surely we know better than that.

I didn’t just mean treated in school coach! I meant treated in general.

I think you will find that if children’s best interest was of paramount concern in every culture and religion then there wouldn’t be any need to get rid of any school for madrassas because they wouldn’t exist!

So yes, I will support a move to create an environment where there is no need for there to be a school refered to as "madrassas".

Coach, how do you define a madressa? Do you know what the word means? Do you know which language it is in? Can you advise as to where madressas exist in Sydney or Melbourne?

rainer, you say you teach multiculti and tolerance in class.....that's great, i only wish other teachers followed your example.

judging by the racist violence and abuse suffered by white folk at the hands of lebanese muslims the message doesn't seem to be getting out......perhaps you could intensify your efforts in spreading peace and happiness amongst the tribes.

With no shadow of excuse of any “abusing women, destroying property and burning churches”, one must notice that apartheid and segregation start on work places and continue in schools and on streets.

Let us not confuse civilized democratic right on preserving national/religious traditions with compulsory involvement in ghetto-style politics.

Making 'multicultural' schools in Australia will never be easy.
There is already strong public prejudice against black skinned Africans & muslim arabs, because there different to the'normal' Australians. I really don't understand how, african and arab children are suppose to blend in, into a society that treat their parents as foreign freaks.

vinny, you might find this hard to believe, but there are many lebanese people with white skin.

Irfan,

Sorry I did not attend to your questions (9/01) earlier – I got side tracked with other posts and forgot all about it.

1. Coach, how do you define a madressa?

It’s actually spelt and pronounced Madrassa in Arabic – usually means ‘school’. But to put it in context and judging from the tone of your questioning, I thing you eluded to the ‘other’ significance of the word.

Madrassa is especially known (but not restricted to) in SE Asia as a place used mainly for teaching Islamic theology, the Arabic language, the memorising of the entire Qur’an, training in the understanding and interpretations and applications of the Qur’an (imams). Madrassa comes under different names in other countries (e.g. Kottab)

It is an institution in itself intended largely - but not always - for underprivileged children and adults who have no normal access to a proper schooling due to geography or poverty. Very little emphasis (not as a rule though) is placed on common teaching like science, maths, etc…It is also alleged that some madrassas are used for extracurricular teaching in jihad and military combat.

2. Do you know what the word means?

The word means a school (directly translated = teachery); coming from the word derassah which means ‘study’. The word describes a place, a building, typically including a mosque/ place for prayers and classrooms.

3. Do you know which language it is in?

Arabic – as I mentioned it before to FH and others, I am fluent in Arabic (and other languages) which comes very handy when deciphering the Islamic texts first hand – still relying on some translation when available.

4. Can you advise as to where madressas exist in Sydney or Melbourne?

As mentioned above, any place that teaches islam – exclusively or not – should by definition satisfy to some extent the description of a madrassa. It could be a school, college, mosque, home, boot camp, club, gym, or any combination.

I hope this answers your questions.

Irfan. You are right, there are many Lebanese with white skin. But for sure the defining factor is the "hair"....

My 15 year old son wants to blend with his Australian mates and keep with the Australian fashion and trends so he tried growing his hair, as is the fashion, and his hair went so curly and so big that he looked like Ronald McDonald. Not quite his aim. Reluctantly he had to cut it off, it was driving him crazy. Then it became obvious that the fashion in Australia is "no hair" for men on body and so he asked me to help him, or provide for him to remove the hair on his body. Help, 15 year old boys with Lebanese background tend to have more hair just on their face, not to mention their body, than the average Australian will every see on their entire body in a lifetime. All I could think of was, have they invented a "hair removal bath" yet.

I am still sitting here mouth open wondering how to tackle this problem of an Australian boy from Lebanese background wanting to blend with his Aussie mates and fashion when his genetic make-up, whilst it is essentially the same, is so different!

It isn’t easy. Maybe the fashion industry in Australian should take more things into consideration and have more scope when directing fashions.

A perfect example of a political correctness and diplomacy:

<vinny, you might find this hard to believe, but there are many lebanese people with white skin.

Posted by Irfan, Friday, 13 January 2006 12:45:27 AM >

Surely, a combination of not belonging to native Britons / Christian tribes is a key point.

I guess Mr Donnelly's recent piece in that American newspaper calling itself "The Australian" will also be posted on OLO in the near future. Again, it represents just how irrelevant some allegedly conservative thinkers have become. Mr Donnelly moans how the Crusaders are given a rough ride. After all, they were so harmless, going around murdering Jews and Orthodox Christians and eating the flesh of dead bodies. Such lovely people they were.

I know some people here would like to see a repeat of that in Australia.

Which The Australian's article particularly?