Welcome back from the moral brink, Professor.

The death penalty is cruel. As is torture.

Can we expect a recanting of your previously expressed opinions on the topic of torture?

The Australian Government has done what it could do. It has made absolutely no difference to Singapore's intention to carry out the sentence. The PM understands "NO" - it's time others did too.

Australian citizens who are too stupid or too arrogant to accept that laws in foreign countries apply to them deserve what they get. Our own views on capital punishment in our own country are irrelevant.

Try to imagine the feelings of the families of Singaporeans hanged in their own country if their government made exceptions for foreigners.

Forget the traditional beauracratic angles, there is not the time for it.

Singapore is a trading partner with Burma, one of the most unashamed drug hubs in the world, yet they kill the pawns transporting it. It shows no logic, they choose to take a stance on drugs yet work with a drug country. Then they execute all those who are on the wrong end of the problem.

Australia needs to apply pressure, not polite pressure, but pressure publically and privately to ensure this does not happen. If John Howard was passionate enough about it, it would be his focus.

Someone needs to be strong and represent the majority of Australians opposed to this. Have we even said a bad word about them publically? How do we get what we want? its not by being a yes boy, thats for sure.

We will incarcerate him here, save them the money, but this is just a case of Singapore trying to flex its muscle. If a Singaporian imported drugs to Australia and was caught in Australia, i bet there would not be many who would object to putting him on a plane and letting his own country deal with him.

If it were John Howards son or daughter, i bet it would be different

I am sorry for his family, however,

He is a CONVICTED drug smuggler, moreover a convicted drug smuggler in a country with draconian, mandatory penalties for this activity. However, despite the fact that Singapore is closely allied with Burma, a major drug producing, non-democratic country, it is a sovereign nation.

If Australians wish to demonstrate their distaste for the policies of the sovereign state of Singapore (or Indonesia) they should not go there. It is not Australias place to intrude upon the domestic policy of other nations, because if Australia could, then it is obvious that they could intrude into ours.

As I understand it, the excuse appears to be that his crime is supposedly mitigated by the fact that in the Vietnamese-Australian community, selling heroin is viewed as being no different to selling any other commondity. If this is so, how exactly is this a good thing? Perhaps, his punishment whilst barbaric and cruel, is a timely lesson to those in our community with no respect for our laws - being that other countries are not so lenient, and that Australia is powerless to intervene.

Anybody smuggling drugs in asia should remember that if you cannot to the time, do not do the crime.

NB I also see no reason fo rAustralia to come to a grinding halt on Friday, unless others advocate also doing so for the carrying out of sentences on domestic drug dealers etc.

When is this bleeding heart rubbish going to stop! He is a drug trafficker! He was caught and now he will be punished, as it should be. Does it matter at what end of the problem he belongs, No! he is the problem. The Singaporeans are going to hang him as an act of self defense! They are defending the lives of their citizens (and ours) from the scum and riffraff that would trade and traffic drugs. The Singaporeans advocate for the right to life also, the right to live a clean and unobstructed existence, free from the degradation of drugs. The universality of the right to life comes with an unstated but essential responsibility which is to live that life in a way that harms no other. Nguyen’s drug trafficking means he failed in his responsibility and now he will pay the price metered out to him by the Singaporean justice system.

ON THE SURFACE, It makes sense what you guys say.

I am sure on the plane he would have been warned, i am sure he knew the risk, but desperation drove him to ignore this and attempt to change his life for the better.

Just because he is Vietnamese in origin, once again people judge.

It is about our citizens being killed by other nations. Lets say that his crime was urinating in a public place. Over here it is a slap on the rists, in some countries you can get 20 years.

There is nothing wrong with the death penalty. I wish it were here. But the death penalty in 2005 should be reserved for mass murderers, not kids with dope, that is the problem. We are not asking to change the laws in Singapore, Australia is asking to spare his life and for him to be housed in Australia for his incarceration. We wouldnt mind sending their citizens back on the first plane if the situation was reversed.

Get some balls Australian Representatives, and stop tip toeing around not wanting to rock the apple cart. Dig your heels in for god's sake, make a stand, or let Australia's wishes be ignored by Asia for generations to come.

Mirko,
Unfortunately for this drug trafficker the moral force of your argument, is not as powerful as you believe.

The ethical approach - and the resolve - adopted by the Singapore government is - as it stands - more powerful.

Severe penalties are a reminder to us, that the whole human race does not see ethics through your lense. Punishing serious crime, severely is their conviction. You are taking the position of intellectual superiority - 'I know better'.

People are not always won over by - what you believe to be - an extremely powerful argument.

Just as many people are not won over by the promise of eternal life, through the merit and deeds of the man, Jesus.

Time for Nguyen Tuong Van to acknowledge that he deserves to be in this mess, and to utter in faith, those timeless words, together with all repentant criminals: 'Remember me'

Death is barbaric, cruel...etc

The drug mule should be spared. Simple mistake. 26,000 doses of drug that could either kill, ruin life of many australians.

Lets spare the Bomb Maker mule in indonesia that killed dozens of australians too. He just made a mistake, though indonesian, lets write to john howard to spare his life. Anyone to start petition to spare life of indonesia bombers/bomb makers?

How about the aussie guy who had sex with underage asia children. I guess we can petition for that too. Spare him!!

Bit OT, but I don't think drug dealers are responsible for other adults sticking needles into their arms to get themselves high, or for the same people breaking into houses and/or mugging people to get the money to purchase said drug.

Also, why can't the same victim mentality we apply to drug addicts apply to this drug mule? This guy risked his life for money, how crazy is that? He obviously must have some kind of psychological disorder, extreme greed, the poor guy needs counselling to correct his priorities.

Now picture this for a scenario - I hop on a plane in Bangkok with 10kg of heroin strapped to my body. Extrapolating the 400 gram/26,000 dose statistic that makes 650,000 doses. I manage to get through Bangkok customs, and also Singapore on the stopover, and then onto Tulla and through again, I've made it. I've committed a crime that could have me sentenced to death twice and a further 20 or so years in this country.

Then, after arriving home in my taxi, I go to my lav and start flushing the 10kg of smack down the sewer. The capital crime has still been committed yet not a single sole other than myself is even aware of that fact - some damage I've done! The net affect to society of my capital crime is that some fish possibly get seriously stoned.

(continued)
The reason we have such serious penalties for drug importation is that in the end it does make a difference. If you could import a million dollars worth of smack and risk say 6 months in prison a lot more of us would be doing it, you can be sure of that. The importation itself though does not harm anyone. Yes I know reality is that it's all destined for the street, but we seem to making a fairly large cause/effect jump that we don't do elsewhere with the law. Are smoking companies held to account by the law? No, as long as they make the it clear on the packet that the activity is dangerous. Is there anyone unaware that heroin has harmful side effects too?

We sacrifice the few to protect the many and pretend they were evil evil people that are responsible for the actions of others. I'm not against the first bit, but do we need to pretend?

People must be really bored to talk about the imminant death of a drug mule.

Watch the grass grow or do a crossword. Far more important!

But Banjo, you came in from watching the grass grow, for a breather, and then made a comment.
And then you put down your crossword to have your 2 bobs worth.
Was the crossword too hard, or too easy?
And did the grass have a drought moment.
Human beings like to talk about big stuff and little stuff.
cheers!

arf2000, you are right. The death penalty should not be imposed on anyone, no matter how awful their crime. Even Bali bombers. Lock them up forever to protect the community? Yes, if absolutely neccessary. But allowing governments to kill goes too far. It makes it too easy for a government to terrorise it's citizens. After all, once someone is dead, they're dead, no problem anymore, a time honoured way of dealing with people with inconvenient political ideas or even inconvenient or offensive racial characteristics.

Put simply, do our governments own even our lives? Can they, if they decide the situation justifies it, snuff us out like a candle? I don't think they should be able to. You might trust the government a lot, and think that the Singapore government is doing the right thing in this case, but do you think all governments everywhere always do the right thing?

Tennyson, don't really follow your argument, and not sure what it's all got to do with Jesus. Interesting point though, what would Jesus have thought about it all I wonder, kill or not kill?

well he would know something about capital punishment.

Guess what, ladies and gentlemen? It is "Be Kind To Heroin Pushers Week." Heroin pushers are no longer The Scum of the Earth, Polical Correctness has now transformed them into misunderstood Servants of the Public. Not only do people like Sneaky Peter and Natasha Twat Destroya want us to stand at attention in rememberance of all those heroin pushers who fell in the line of duty, they will sooner or later get around to demanding that a "Tomb of the Unknown Pusher" be erected.

Please note, Mr Mguyan is not the bad guy around here. Oh no, he is just another poor misunderstood little guy who is a victim of the real villian, the detestable John Howard.

Mirko Bagaric's mournful rant dredges up the usual phony pretence to superior moral values popular with the Chardonnay suckers. I am not a religious person, so I do not even know the name of the present Pope. But since Marco Bagaric seems to think that his personal view of what constitutes superior morality is both infallible and universal, perhaps the new Pope is Pope Bagaric?

Morality is based upon generally accepted societal values, and since there has never been a referenda on the death penalty, (because it is endorsed by the majority) claiming that opposition to the death penalty is a universal moral value is complete poppycock.

Erm, i wonder how long does paint take to dry. Oil or water base better? Anyone playing world of warcraft lately?

Ermm, thinking about death, barbaric stuff and etc etc.

I think the most barbaric thingy is the government's taxes.
Death to Taxes! Darn GST.
Next Barbaric thingy is Street Children in City Streets, government should focus more on them than spending mil$ on iraq and aghanistan war. Feed them kids. Adopt a child. Adobt a Heroin Mule. Adobt a child sex offender. Nuke the world, let the roaches rule us.
Death to Taxes!

What was i talking about...erm

Back to paint drying, maybe black paint dry faster...black will absorb heat from sunlight, therefore dries faster. White color ...erm..

To all the bleeding hearts,
What you fail to recognise is that the rules of the Singaporean Government are of no concern to the rest of the world. This is how wars actually start, because the people who think they are right which is usually both sides, cannot resist the urge to make the other side see the error of their thinking. Concern yourself with the rules in your own country. If you dont want to come under the rules of another government, stay out of their country.
Opinions are like arseholes. Everybody has one.

A last minute bid may be mounted to spare Mr Van that terrible trip to the gallows. This appeal follows the 30 appeals already launched.

Mr Van's case is an iteresting one and before we beatify him we should examine what we've been told. He was caught with heroin worth an estimated $450,000 which was to settle his brother's debt of $50,000. No doubt the $400,000 profit would've been donated to a charity. How many trips has Mr Van undertaken? And given the criminial milieu of his brother I wonder why funds weren't borrowed from one of Melbourne's delightful crime czars.

The fate that awaits Mr Van should sound a tocsin for other young people, if they're listening.

I wonder if the people of Singapore are getting a little sick and tired of Australians telling them how to administer their judicial system. It seems like imperialism isn't dead just yet.

The current frenzy over this case is best explained by reference to Patrick Wests recent book "Conspicuous Compassion" (Centre for Independent Sutdies). Certain people compete with each other to show greater and greater levels of public outrage and ostentatious caring, thus increasing their feeling of self worth. One can only wonder if one percent of the moral indignation was actually translated into real action to help, for example, Pakistani earthquake victims, then the far more lives would be saved.

art2000. Your brilliant. Instead of watching the news on Friday, I'll google up some research on street kids and kids with cancer. Could develope into a productive discussion. Nothing of interest on news Friday anyhow. Catch yer.

One wonders is all the sympathy shown by Australians is coming from those who actually support the legalising of drugs? Children die every day in disgusting circumstances from drug overdoses, and receive no sympathy. The pathetic users raise no universal sympathy, but criminal couriers and pushers are heros, if you believe their friends. "He is a good boy"! No he is a criminal and we must not give him hero status. I do not like hanging, there is more humane ways of execution. But hanging will certainly get media attention in Australia.

As per last Nguyen thread…

To those of you who support Nguyen's hanging and have sooo much respect Singapore's judicial system...

1. Do you also respect the Singaporean government's ties to drug barons?

2. Do you not see their blatant hypocrisy in the whole case?

I hardly see how hanging a drug dealer is going to solve anything when their government is in bed with the "Dons" of the drug world.

It raises the question...

Is it for justice? Or does the Singaporean government simply enjoy killing people?

Their apparent tunnel vision in the case; along with their hypocrisy suggests the latter.

...And it amuses me that none of you execution happy conservatives can see that.

Saving Australian Lifes vs One

Drug profit fuels the worst of all crimes ... have you seen those Films where the old crime lords ironically draw the line because drugs were the worst sin ... and those who dealt in it are truly violent

Something like that ... these drugs fuel the Asian gangs in Australia. Why would you let Aussie youths work as little mules with Asian drug barons. Be outrage your kids are treated with contempt and being laugh at in Asia - being the drug mules for druglords working in concert with terrorists.

So dangerous are drugs ...(like alcohol to indigenous natives) China was brought down by opium ... legally traded by the British. Osama groups harvest them in afganistan to be sold to western countries.

The argument AGAINST capital punishment can go this way ... statiscally it is detection that is more impt on the war on drugs and capital punishment is no deterrent

Walking into our airport... you hear the capital punishment law on drugs.. there are plain clothes and uniform police, soldiers, cameras and dogs ... you sweat ... you twitch ... you get nervous. Drug mules and terrorist have a greater chance to be detected

You want to stop these mules from entering your country ... it seems like a big hammer crushing a small ant ... but each mule that enter into Australia is an infection that wield great damage ... it is like sending 10 in and 9 get caught ... but one enters ... the damage is great ... Nightmarishly the ratio is reversed.

Capital punishment is both a deterrent and detection tool. For it to work, the punishment must be meted out.

Your govt or more accurately your "police" understand the war. They have the information. They want them caught out of your country and face the severe punishment.

I am against capital punishment BIG TIME ! ... Don't do the crime. Capital punishment will then be absent. Its that simple.

Van Nguyen will be in heaven (for christian australian). He made his peace. The last will be first.

An aspect of this issue which those who want to get tough with Singapore might consider.

There are at least 9 other Aussie's in an Asian prison at the moment who may face a similar fate in the future. Our behaviour and attitude towards Singapore and their right to make their own rules might impact on the chances of a backroom deal to spare the lives of those nine or visa versa. My guess is that to much bluster by predominately white Australia may get the backs up of Indonesian authorities. People tend to do that when they feel pushed around or attacked. There may be no room left for Indonesian to work towards sparing their lives without looking to have caved in to Australian pressure. Pressure from Australia is something which does not appear to have ever been well recieved in the region.

R0bert

With regard to the death penalty, in 2001 China executed 2,468 prisoners. Australia is currently in serious discussions with China about establishing a FTA. Should we cancel those talks based on the government of China's sanguinary profile and its love of the law of talion?

Do you have to be conservative to support the death penalty? Judging by the support for the death penalty in the media and reflected in a couple of straw polls it would seem that people of different 'faiths' put the lie to that belief. Even the 'peasants', not known as conservatives, would seem to support the death penalty.

Ooops! I'm straying into real democracy here - rule by the majority - so I'd better stop now.

None of the people pleading for Singapore to change its law for the sake of a foreigner appear to have considered the consequences of their proposal. They are claiming that an Australian who commits a crime in another country should be punnished according to our rules not theirs. And it would naturally follow that foreign nationals who commit a crime in australia should be punished according to the law of their country of origin. Do I then take it that a Saudi national who was caught shop lifting should have their hand cut off courtesy of the Australian legal system? And what if the foreigner came from a country that had no paedophillia laws? Would they be free to bugger litle boys at will and receive only the sanction accorded for the crime in his own country (nil). Where will it stop? With Fijian police checking for Fijian gays at the next Mardi Gras? With the stoning of female Afganis for not wearing the burqua in George St. Or are they just looking for one law for Australians and another for foreigners?

I'm sure there are a lot of mothers of dead heroin users that will be quite happy to see any drug trafficker hung in ANY country. Not to mention victims of burglaries and bashings by drug users. Why should we waste money on keeping alive people that think it's okay to supply the drug that will murder many people so they can make some money? We should get a bit tougher on dealers and traffickers over here too.
And Singapore has REALLY BIG SIGNS all over the place letting you know quite clearly that you will be hung if you are caught trafficking drugs. Can they be any more fairer than that. We will hang you unless of course your mother cries then we better not incase we upset someone? Oh yeah WE WONT HANG ANYONE IF THEY ARE NOT TRAFFICKING DRUGS. so what is the problem here? Dont deal with drugs and you wont get hung. Its REALLY SIMPLE no one gets hung if they dont commit the crime. Singapore is not the criminal here, the drug trafficker is.

One has to wonder if the children, siblings, loved ones of all these bleeding heart pollies, lawyers and generally "outraged" wonderkind were to die of overdoses or end up inprison for crimes committed to feed their drug habits, would the above be so bloody sanctimonious?
If their aged parents were beaten up by addicts breaking into their homes to steal whatever cash they could get their hands on, would they say,"Tut, Tut"
If their beloved child died in a public lavertory with a needle in the arm, would they be moved at all?
Or would they demand a minutes silence and flags shown at half mast for the vermin that caused it all?
What hypocrits.

Trade sanctions are a frivolous idea. If we told Singapore that we wouldn’t trade with them any more, they’d laugh. What could be done has been done. Half-heatedly maybe, but there are no more realistic measures.

This case along with Corby and Leslie shows how superficial our media is. Corby is a young, surfie looking chick, Leslie is a model and Nguyen is “baby faced”.

Many other Australians have been executed overseas yet we never heard about any of them.

One that particularly comes to mind was an Australian in Vietnam who was tried an executed within two days!

Jenben,

”Dont deal with drugs and you wont get hung. Its REALLY SIMPLE no one gets hung if they dont commit the crime. Singapore is not the criminal here, the drug trafficker is.”

You’re right. It really IS that simple. No one argues that.

But contrary to your last point, the Singaporean government is also the criminal here due to their relations with drug lords. I would argue that their hypocrisy and bigger role in the drug trade; along with the fact that they are supposed to be running a country and practising what they preach, makes them an even BIGGER bunch of crooks than the dealers and middle-men of the drug trade.

They can hang Nguyen if that’s what’s needed. But if they do, then they will also need to hang themselves.

If it wasn’t for the likes of their drug lord buddies, Nguyen wouldn’t have even had any drugs to be hanged for.

There was an commission investigating the claims of an opposition member of the SIngapore Parliament accusing Singapore Governtment dealing with drug barons. Some how the Opposition member withdraw his comments and the public commission was closed.

End of the day, it seems the Media is playing up with that accusation that happened in the 1990s.

1) The Media should focus on other things like: nuke was exploded in atolls near australia and in australia. media should investigate how it is affecting people, aboriginals and fauna in general.
2) Australian Street Children
3) Cane toads
4) Unions taking over australia.
5) Abolishing Prisons; introduce home prison systems; ankle guard. Walk out of zone, ankle guard explodes...muahahaha..

arf2000,

Other than Unions some how taking over, I totally agree that the issues you’ve raised are far more important than what our media is concentrating on these days. Nguyen is a drop in the ocean compared to bigger picture as a whole. And it disappoints me that our dopey media feeds people what they think they want; totally ignoring the more fundamental issues.

The point of my posts on this topic are merely to challenge the one-sided beliefs of the “Let’s support the death penalty no matter what the cost” members of this forum.

As for your point about the Singaporean government and drug barons – That’s highly debatable. If that they have no connections with drug barons, then why is it that out of the hundreds of drug offenders that have been executed, not one of them was a drug baron? The Singaporean government has also had close dealings, involving millions of dollars with one of the most notorious of drug lords in Burma.

Singapore maintains a strong stance against drugs yet it invests billions of dollars in Burma each year – a country where half of it’s GDP comes from heroin. Sounds a bit suspicious to me.

If they’re going to execute people, then that’s their business – as right or wrong as it may be. But at the same time, if they’re going to go the extent of penalising someone with a punishment so irreversible like putting them death; for a stance they supposedly believe in so strongly, then they need some consistency in their behaviour or they discredit their whole system and make themselves look like hypocritical savages.

For how long now, have we in society allowed academics and social engineers to fiddle with our laws and standards ?

They all claimed to be wiser then us all, and their solutions were supposed to be the best.
Yet, how many would walk the streets of their cities in Australia in the dead of night and feel safe ?
A direct result of these social engineering practiced by such people.
Worse, are they EVER held accountable for their stuff ups ? Not likely.
Now here it goes again, some lofty adcademic in his ivory tower proclaiming he knows what's best for us all, and Singapore as well.
Too bad he doesn't direct similar invective at the U.S. who would have to be at the top of the class, for committing murder against it's own citizenry and the citizens of the World with impunity.
I wonder why that is, could it be because he considers Singapore a soft touch ? Or fair game ?

I would suggest that should the death penalty be done away with and replaced with a lifetime in gaol, a certain proportion of the learned Proffesor's salary should be contributed for the sustenance of said prisoner.
In fact all supporters of such, should all be called upon, to place their money, where their mouths are, and when that happens, for goodness sake, don't stand in the doorway, you may be trampled in the stampede.

One thing has long amused me about the issue of Singapore Laws & Punishment and our hypocritical attitude toward. When crime ( such as thefts, break and enters, loutish behaviours, etc)in our cities (particularly juvenile crime) gets a big run in the media, there is much discussion about Australian law being too soft, and we should use the birch like in Singapore. When Australians are caught trafficking drugs through Singapore, their laws are too barbaric. I do oppose the death penalty but until Singapore changes this law, (I suspect it will start snowing there first), it is THE LAW. I apologise for being a prudey little square, but this guy was risking his life big time, and will now pay the price. My prayers do go to his family and friends who are affected by his actions.

Some good and spurious comments.

If anyone wants to do something positive to help Nguyen Tuong Van - you might consider dumping OPTUS.

http://dimc.axxs.org/index.php?action=default&featureview=80

I'm working on an article - I'll post it later.

This issue will not go away whatever happens to Nguyen.

Capital punishment is wrong, although it's bizarre that leftists who usually cite moral relativism as the holy grail, that all cultures are equal - one is neither better nor worse than another, are the ones so outraged by this barbaric Singaporian method of execution.

Everything seems to be said, although I'd add that we need to start looking into what it is within the Asian cultures that has no problem with heroin. Heroin is distributed in Australia, the AFP says, largely by Asian crime syndicates.

I've often wondered why the heroin capital of our nation is an are where Asian migrants settled in the 1970's & 80's. I wonder how the man who lives in the house opposite the park where all the youth sell heroin doesn't call the police. I just can't imagine it happening in an Aussie area, the parents would come out with baseball bats to stop the dealers.

Then there is the rumour of the junkies from Melbourne who say that when they used to score at Nguyen's house (who hangs tommorow) it was often the mother who did the deal at the door. If true, and I've read that this is common at Cabramatta too, she isn't human.

Still, nobody can deny that there are cultural elements to this problem, which is likely why it's the Asian nations with the severe punishments for such crimes.

I also believe that none of this would be happening if Nguyen was a white-anglo saxon. The multiculti lobby who want to erect monuments for this hero & have a minutes silence (they are really getting out of hand aren't they?) will stop at nothing to help their ethnic pets.

However, could you imagine the reverse? A group of Aussie refugees set are welcomed to Vietnam and within 20years have set themselves up as a major crime capital, sex capital, fraud capital & DRUG capital. A tiny community among millions and this is the result! We'd have Vietnamese regularly lynching Aussies for selling drugs to their kids, a NEW FORM OF COLONIALISM the politicians would say, and shops would be burnt to the ground. We'd be told to go home.

Think of how tolerant Australians are considering this has never happened, after all the violence, drugs they have brought with them. We are following Christ's example a little too close I think!

Excellent article. Singaporeans have been executing people for years and nobody in Australia has raised a complaint. You can't stare at a pot hole for years and then drive into it and complain to council.
The ratbag element have only made things worse. When you start to insult and belittle the natural reaction is to dig ones heels in. They have only worked to resolve the stance of the Singaporean government.

Now - even feeble-minded blind Freedy can see that the orchestrated posturing of our erstwhile PM, viz Nguyen Van Truong - who goes to the gallows in less than 16 hours, is hollow and shows little compassion for his family and followers in their most distressing moments of profound grief.

That so little and so late, was propagated to save his life - speaks volumes.

For some years, we have been inundated with the notion from our Foreign Affairs Office and Custom's spokesperson, we were on the 'brink' of concluding an International Agreement with countries of SE Asia, wherein our National's would be exchanged through the Court process for like-minded criminals - to serve the remainder of their sentences, here in Ozzieland.

Fact or fiction - When, may I ask, are we to see the fruits of their ' hard-yakka 'while our Academic's, brain-dead journo's in the National tabloids, rant, rave and regurgiate endless scoops about 'corruption, inepitude, nepotism, 'Burmese Golden Triangle connections to the hierachy of Singapore's ruling Party, and generally adopt a 'holier-than-thou' attitude - yes, where are the Chris Ellison's, Philip Ruddock's, Alexander Downer's, Kevin Rudd's, Mick Kelty's, Sir James Deanne's conglomerates of 'pollies', media opportunist, carpet-baggers, snake-oil merchants and their camp-followers now ?

As the moments dwindle, has diplomacy failed ? The International High Court of Appeals, United Nations, the Vatican - where is our much vaunted ' clout' as we strut the World's stage, our illusional 'mateship'in World Affairs really getting us ? Where indeed -where it matters - that's where.

'Nero, fiddles whilst Rome burns ' Please note tomorrow the PM's Eleven take 'centre-stage'.Televised coast-to-coast. Optimum coverage mean-while-back-in-squaresville-zilch. Ho Hum, said Magoo before ' chundering'.

It maybe, we are not sincere enough. Have the 'intestinal fortitude' sufficiently to leave no stone unturned - to HASTEN their exchange ASAP come what may.

Now, wouldn't Santa make-my-day if ONLY.

Cheers.

Nguyen Van Truong, you shall be a Martyr for the abolition of capital punishment worldwide. Your situation has raised consciousness regarding the barbaric nature of this practice. Your life will be given, but more will live because of it.
You do not die without meaning.

Itchyvet - i can recommend an ointment for that rash - But who are these academics and social engineeers? how do they fiddle with our laws? give me a cuppla frinstances.

last time I looked it was politicians who made laws; where's the value in blaming other people for circumstances you do not like?

And mickjo seems edgy as well; drug use is a scourge;- but less than 3% of Australians have dabbelled in narcotics - but as those who are old enuff to remember the ads for Brylcream ( old fashioned hair goop) a little dab will do ya. But ruhuheeeeely booze gives rise to much social pain and unrest than narcotics ever will - So lets put the scourge of drugs in some perspective drug use and drug runnig is a headline crime there are plenty of worse things going on around us.

So us hypocrits can live comfortably with what might seem to some an internal contradiction - and life is full of them - that see us not want to kill people for drug running and mourn for the vicitms of drugs at the same time.

This man is a drug trafficker! He destroys lives and is a menace to society! Australians can mourn for this criminal all they want, but singaporeans want him to pay. It sends a message to future drug trafickers that this could be their fate. let him hang! If austrlians have a problem with that, they can stay the hell away from singapore.

Van Tuong Nguyen - August 17, 1980 – December 2, 2005

Comments by swilkie: "Nguyen Van Truong, you shall be a Martyr for the abolition of capital punishment worldwide..... your death will not be without meaning".

Get a grip! This criminal got caught & now he's paying the price. You must have better things to do than make a martyr out of this wretch. Why not make a martyr out of Adolf Hitler or Pol Pot? Surely you feel they have been unjustly executed??

singaporeaan, you need to get a grip most first world countries have abolished the detah penalty (obviously except U.S.). It is inhumane and outdated. You need to understand you may set your countrys laws as long as they dont take out citizens lives. In the end your country will be the one who loses out in all of this.

MichaelBeckham,
Most first world countries have abolished the death penalty and made peace with their Native citizens(obviously except Australia). We still giving crap to our aboriginals in some way or another; ie. Golf course on sacred land in sydney. No voting rights till recent decades. Treating them as flora and fauna till recent decades. We're still a 3rd world country considering our actions on our own Australian "mates". Respect our own people before judging others.
I'd rather Asia filter scum before it reaches our shores. How many people have your helped or saved in your life? Go to the streets and help our Australia Street children. Go the streets and help our Australian Poor. Strike and abolish guns in Australia. Go to our national forest in QLD, NT and weed out wild marijuana. Do something!

What is the difference in killing by hanging or killing by drugs?Why is one[drugs] apparently acceptable and the other[hanging] not?
Can any of the pro drug traffickers tell me what is so good about one method that is so wrong about the other.
As I see it one system is about stopping the other from profitting from killing and protecting those who need protecting.
The other system is all about filthy profit from selling drugs to addicts who need treatment, not overdoses.

An interesting read :

Culture Is Destiny; A Conversation with Lee Kuan Yew
http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/other/culture.html

Here is something funny :

Disney Land with the Death Penalty
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~afarrell/things/singapore.html

I am a Singaporean. Earlier i commented on my support for capital punishment. Most of us do. Lee Kwan Yew gave us tough love type of living. He probably admires the old empire of the British of keepng the stiff upper lip. And the eastern value of community first. Hence I argued if you sense the loss and grief of one, we sense the loss of many. Now your drug trade is an insidous kind of terrorism within your borders. Australians are being made use as little mules by drug lords with links to terrrorists.

Another part of our psyche -- we are all in the conscript army. 2-2.5 years and further 13 years reservist trg -- playing with guns and all sorts. I have my classmate and schoolmates died in trg.(I must admit this is one reason i would want to get out) ...Just recently it was reported ... some of our best died due unsanction commando torture.

Is there a link ? All this paranoia about protecting ourselves ... and its war against drugs too. It is kind of total defense thingy. Being tough. I think he likes to see us as tough "thugs" with an intellect.

Anyway ... don't worry we are going to get "soft", the signs are there. We will probably do away or amend our capital punishmentin 1-2 decades. We will be more like "first world" ... be soft on crime and as a country be less interesting to talk about.

Who knows ... Australia will bring back capital punishment ... most US states have brought it back ... reversing a trend.

Its a cycle ... who is barbaric. The Chinese and the Japenese once thought the world was barbaric and close themselves off. Theirs was of a very refine culture. Of course we had opium and alcohol that was introduce by the west.... and cycle of life and misery carries on ...

All this concern for a dead drug dealer? Lets just say he finally paid the premium on his misplaced public liability insurance policy. Lets offer Jayant Patel a free pardon, provided he takes half a Kilo of smack via Singapore.

The only problems with the US death penalty is the elaborate cost and delay of the appeal system, the absence of a higher bar for the "reasonable doubt" test when the death penalty is imposed and under funded legal aid. It is now cheaper in USA to keep a guy in prison for life than to execute him.

Good on ya Singapore. And remember, the body of adverse opinion on these posts does not reflect the views of most Australians.

I am appalled at the self-righteousness being shown here. It all too easy to jump on the bandwagon and say that a principled approach must be taken to abolish the death penalty.
How other countries decide to govern themselves is entirely for them and not for others. This has been demonstrated in what happened when we stuck our noses into Iraq. Believe it or not we have made a bad problem even worse.
In Singapore Nguyen knew full well what he was doing and he paid the price for it. Whether Singapore abolished the death penalty or not is entirely for them and not for those of us outside.
Whether they do or not, I hope that for their sakes that they are given a mature and rational debate on it.
When the death penalty was abolished in Britain in 1965 it was done without a public debate and without consultation or a referendum. Public opinion polls always show a majority in favour of capital punishment.
In the UK in 1965 there were fewer than 400 murders a year. Last year that figure was close to 1,000. Who said that the death penalty does not deter?

Gavin Staples.

Cambridge UK.

http://www.gavinstaples.com

How did this man ever become the dean of Deakin law school with such simplistic reasoning?

“Thus, it must be pointed out the citizens of Singapore are no safer from drugs (trafficking) as a result of capital punishment.”
Doesn’t high drug use in a country lead to high street crime owing to junkies robbing and stealing to afford their next fix, and aren’t the streets in Singapore much safer than those of urban Australia?

“… a fundamental sentencing principle that should underpin all sentencing systems is the principle of proportionality... This is violated when the most severe form punishment is imposed for offences which do not constitute the most heinous forms of offending. Drug-trafficking is bad, but clearly crimes such as murder and homicide are far more serious.”

So if the punishment for serial killers who murder twenty people is death, then we can’t issue the death sentence for those who murder only five victims?

“…to maximise human flourishing where each individual's interest counts equally. The most important interest recognised in this universal moral code is the right to life…. The right to life can only be violated where there is a compelling reason to do so (such as self defence). This is not the situation in the case of capital punishment. No benefit is derived from killing wrongdoers.”

What about guaranteeing that a cold blooded calculating murderer never takes another life? (murder, like practically all crimes, has a recidivism rate.)
What about giving closure to the grieving relatives and loved ones of the victim of a brutal killing?
What about the possibility that the threat of death will deter drug importation and may in fact save some part of a generation of youth from being lost to drug addiction and associated diseases from sharing needles?
What about reassuring the general public by making a very visible and unequivocal statement that innocent life is precious and that there is just NO tolerance for those who intentionally, with malice aforethought, destroy it?

Singapore Drug Situation Report

http://www.cnb.gov.sg/report/index.asp?page=405

http://www.cnb.gov.sg/report/index.asp?page=244

Drug abuse situation has been on a decline for some time. Dramatic reduction on heroin abuse as supply is very limited.

However users are now using "legal" substitutes -- sabutex for heroin ( heroin is considered as the worst abuse.)This drug is a substitute and it is used to help them wean off heroin but it can be abused.

We are now going after the doctors who are over prescribing ... no death penalty ... its legal ... but maybe shame them if they are blatantly over prescribing.

Capital punishment (targets supply) as i argued above acts very effectively combine with education and prevention (targets users). It is a two prong approach.

Those who are addicted on heroin ... it is almost impossible to get out of it ... its really tough ... its like touch the stuff and you are dead to the world. Hnce Singapore applies the toughest law on it.

It is not that we don't value lifes, we value the innocent lifes more than the drug trafficers.

This is the culture clash -- one life vs many -- individual vs community.

We value community but apparently for Australia ... the thought of losing one life versus the potential (which is real) of destroying many ... The present emotional feeling of one lost life versus the future destruction of many is hard emotionally.

Nobody wants to take lifes. Certainly not our government, that would be crazy. It is just the law that we enact. If you don't do the crime ... you don't die. Simple.

Commentators,
Howdy and 'ats off to ya all cowboys. Hey, I've got a good ol' stock whip out the back, lets go get it and whip 'im first... oh, sorry about that, I thought I was on a Texan website.

Compassion, understanding, valuing life - in my opinion those things have always been way too, well...Australian.

It takes a special kind of person to stand by and watch another die.

Congratulations and keep up the good work.

Well said here.

"Singapore Drug Situation Report

http://www.cnb.gov.sg/report/index.asp?page=405

http://www.cnb.gov.sg/report/index.asp?page=244

Drug abuse situation has been on a decline for some time. Dramatic reduction on heroin abuse as supply is very limited.

However users are now using "legal" substitutes -- sabutex for heroin ( heroin is considered as the worst abuse.)This drug is a substitute and it is used to help them wean off heroin but it can be abused.

We are now going after the doctors who are over prescribing ... no death penalty ... its legal ... but maybe shame them if they are blatantly over prescribing.

Capital punishment (targets supply) as i argued above acts very effectively combine with education and prevention (targets users). It is a two prong approach.

Those who are addicted on heroin ... it is almost impossible to get out of it ... its really tough ... its like touch the stuff and you are dead to the world. Hnce Singapore applies the toughest law on it.

It is not that we don't value lifes, we value the innocent lifes more than the drug trafficers.

This is the culture clash -- one life vs many -- individual vs community.

We value community but apparently for Australia ... the thought of losing one life versus the potential (which is real) of destroying many ... The present emotional feeling of one lost life versus the future destruction of many is hard emotionally.

Nobody wants to take lifes. Certainly not our government, that would be crazy. It is just the law that we enact. If you don't do the crime ... you don't die. Simple".

Top post that is.

That speaks for itself. Where else in the world has drug abuse been in decline. Certainly not in Australia and most certainly not here in the UK.
I wish.

The punishments in Singapore obviously work then.

Gavin.

UK.

This situation is very close to me... Please read the whole post...
My father died in prison last Wednesday, 12th of September, 2007. He was serving a life sentence for heroin importation with no parole. This sentence created legal history on several levels... Firstly, it was the first time an Australian had been sentenced to life without parole for a drug offence; Secondly, it was only the second time in Australian legal history in which an individual had been given a life sentence for a drug offence (ironically, it was my father who was the FIRST person to be handed a life sentence for drug offences in Australia); and Finally, it is the first time in WORLD legal history that a human being has served 2 back to back (separate) life sentences AFTER being on Death Row in ANY country...
Sadly, most people sent to death are purely "mules" of the drug trade, and are often threatened by the senior parties involved if they don't traffic (either a threat against them or their families). However, in the case of my father, he was the man in charge of the operations to import. He also had enemies.
My father was set up in Singapore in 1980. A rival boss secretly had a small parcel of heroin placed in the top pocket of dad's jacket during a legitimate business meeting in Singapore. Yes, he did have a legitimate business (all drug bosses do). When he was arrested, a customs officer just reached into dad's top pocket. They knew exactly where to look. Dad was set up in a country where drug trafficking carries the death penalty... I won't go into it (The Australian government intervened and he ended up serving 3 years in Changi for a lesser offence). Over a 45 year period, he served time in Australia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Zurich and London...In hindsight, he probably should have been put to death in 1980... and if the Singapore government were actually aware of his prior convictions, he would have been.