How dare anybody discuss torture as if they were talking about a stale cheese sandwich! Remember this - what goes around comes around! I have a feeling of such foreboding, such an 'I have been here before and seen this before' feeling. I remember the McCarthy Era when people were so afraid of the reds under the bed (instigated by the USA)and the years that followed. Replace the 'reds' with 'terrorists' and there they go again. It is my belief that Australia has not been a 'terrorist target' because we were a good example of giving everybody a fair go, etc. But now that the US has stirred up McCarthyism against muslims around the world, and some muslims have not forgotten the Crusades against them, I fear for the future. The Liberal Politicians of today have never had an original thought, in fact I doubt if they actually can think! As for the opposition I can only say, what opposition? And ASIO's misinformation! I remember how they were ridiculed about thirty years ago for their inanity. History sure does repeat. Such a pity that the redneck mentality has spread to Australia.

Reading the article and some of the posts it ocurs to me that I can think of plenty of movie like scenario's where I could live with the idea of torture. The bad guy is captured and the buried hostage child must be found before their air runs out kind of stuff.

In the real world such scenario's are very unlikely. What is likely is that if western governments begin to sanction torture we have moved a step closer to the end of much that we hold dear. We regularly choose to risk innocent lives in order to maintain freedoms. The presumption of innocence being central to that. We choose to place the burden of proof on the prosecution rather than the defence (except in tax and family law). How many crimes are committed because the evidence was not sufficient to convict someone of an earlier offence and isn't that better than "being charged" meaning "being found guilty"? Imagine the terror of going before a judge who never aquited anybody.

I'm not willing to trade the things that make our civilisation great for a little extra security. Nor to swap fear of terrorists for fear of the knock on the door at 3am and friends wondering what happened to me, and that is the path you are on when society sanctions torture. I'ts a slippery slope that is very hard to get off.

R0bert

Terrorism has been produced by impossibility to achieve desirable by means possible legally.

And torture is an effective tool to gain information used to please investigators and their bosses only.

While I agree that many of the terrorist (real & potential) have not been tortured in the past, and are therefore not the product of torture, what will be the effect of torturing somebody who is not in fact connected to, or associated with terrorists?

Torture is used to instil fear, demean and terrify the subject, whether for a distinct aim, or to prevent support for others. Use of it, means that the authorities who are only effective because they support the rule of law, are no longer viewed as validly being subject to it. As this is arguably the basis of popular sovereignty, to harmit is to harm democracy.

If people are too scared or terrorised to speak out democracy will not survive. Terrorising terrorists has historically strengthened their position, not weakened it. In this case, to destroy democracy in order to prevent terrorism is to acheive their ultimate goal for them.

This article misses the point.

Torture of mind has caused most of history's serial killers and also the newer "hollywood-hype" version such as the "Collumbine High massacre" kids, who through a combination of not being able to cope with the fast changing roles of men and women in modern society and the nihilistic effects that come from this, and a big cry out for attention in a harsh winner-loser capitalist society like America, turned into killers or "terrorists".
Torture is a term that the average westerner atleast sees as meaning the Japanese or Vietnamese Bamboo growing through your body or someone physically cutting off fingers etc.. To try to redefine "torture" as "undies on head" or "dog barking near person" or "music playing for 48 hours" is simply rediculous and certainly can't be seriously listenned to. The recent Abu Gharib scandal in Iraq just told the Iraqis that westeners are a soft touch and easy to get law suits out of due to their constant in-fighting between "left" & "right".
The reason why muslims today are becomming terrorists is due to torture yes, torture from within their own culture. Imaging if you were brought up to believe that a wicked person is someone who smokes or drinks or has sex, while your main role model, Mahommed, was a man who had 48 wives some of who were only 6 years old, he made his money by getting a percentage from all caravan raids in Arabia, he regularly massacred Jews, Christians and other Kafirs.Islam has produced the most racist, megolomaniad societies in the world.To say that this is an example of a "good" person is twisted to say the least, and it is no wonder why the muslims today are bitter, twisted people who actually believe the west is decadent. That must be why gang rape, narcotics sales, murder and armed robery are highest everywhere they live.
If you were brought up by parents who were so hypocritical and bigotted, wouldn't you crack and turn into a killer and a rapist?

Aaron,

Tortures surely incline people into particular feelings towards their interrogators that would stimulate further subtle performance of terror activities.

Harsh punishment for any misconduct leads to increasing cruelty towards casualties of this misconduct, to a higher number of possible witnesses being murdered, but does not prevent an issue of crime (terrorism) in general.