A well-expressed article. Nothing much will be progressed in the problem of drug trafficking by implementing the death sentence in this case.
The death penalty is just geat for communities who get a lift out of a feeling of some achievement of revenge. And if occasionally it is at the expense of the wrong person, well that is just too bad.
Its supposed purpose of minimizing the rates of perpetration of particular crimes does not seem to have worked all that well in the USA, China or elsewhere. So, putting people to death after a few legal contortions is generally nothing more than a need to display a bit of hairy-cyestedness: by those having a need to put it on display.
Neither does the death penalty seem to have worked for Singapore when it has been shown by this case to be a clearing house for Heroin: the convicted person was not caught while bringing heroin into Singapore. He was bringing it from Singapore to Australia. I wonder where the Singaporeans get it from. Do they themselves know: and if not, do they really want to know?

No his death is unlikely to have any effect, he is after all just the mule.
However it seems to me various strands of the drug/death / national state rules argument are being muddled.
To simply, as is the want of politicians and others to indulge in the casuistry of failing to ask the reason for the behaviour. Is it drugs/lack of will/easy money/poverty. In this case it seems poverty.
It is fine to say no man should be put to death and maybe there are degrees of need in this espousal. Yet we, Australia and others quite happily murder (since the war is illegal) Iraqi. Politically useful like castigating drugs.
Next for a country whose leader believes in Nationalism (when it suits) to decry nationalistic behaviour is the normal political hype.

Nguyen should be saved so that Singapore can show 'mercy' - surely the badge of a civilised society¿ <-- The main thrust of the Nguyen-Gillian-Handley's argument.

Disagree:

...and civilized society must have such a badge?

...and Australia is presumably so civilized and thus adequately badged?

hmmm... lets couple the 'mercy' yard-stick to Australia's slaughter (strong word), killing (less strong), putting down (euphemistic) or termination (the technical term) of 100 000 fetuses annually?

(http://www.nswrtl.org.au/issues/abortion.htm)

Is this social custom, of a 'lustrous badge of honour society', merciful?

You'd guess not.

Is it thus not fair to suggest that Australia has a momentous 'mercy' failing.

So perhaps Australians perspective should be to back off and let Singapore act as it deems civilised, and 'terminate' whom it deems guilty, and accept the neolithic status of ethics in Australia.

Or would Gillian explain how Australia should pursue mercy in one sorry case - but not in another 100 000?

You-go-girl...(or should we save a whale¿)

Money is not the root of all evil, lack of money is.

It is the reason that many of us are even here in Australia in the first place, stealing a loaf of bread to feed your family.

Times have changed, society has changed, the financial pressures of today forcing people in making stupid decisions.

No doubt about it, Mr Nguyen has rocks in his head for doing it in the first place. He must have balls the size of watermelons for even contemplating it, but things must be pretty bad for him to feel his hand was forced enough to do this.

People can murder and get parole in 20 years. He was bringing drugs into our country, drugs that may kill our kids, and help those embarking on the habit.

Why dont they 'tag and release' drug mules and let them find their source, then get a decent bust out of it.

If I were the government, i would put more pressure on Singapore by letting them know they are killing one of our kids. We will extradite him and he can face the consequences here. All tourists should have to be extradited instantly to face their own authorities, and let me tell you, embarrassing your country and facing legal proceedings will not be taken lightly, but it will be more how we like to see our people dealt with.

It costs Singapore many times more to trial him and hang him than to send him on his bike, and this means if a singapore man got done in Australia, he could go home to his government and face what is acceptable to his people.

Singapore should be lent on. If John Howard got on a plane, went to the PM's office in Singapore, and sat there and demanded like a man with backbone, he could free Van, but he wont even free the innocent like Shapelle. We are not a big fish, Australia, but we can be a fiesty little Rooster especially in our own backyard.

Gillian Handley never wanted the death penalty for her brother’s murders. She wanted the killers to face up to what they had done: she “can think no greater punishment than to live with yourself, once you comprehend the full extent of the crime you have committed.”

Gillian has more faith in peoples’ ability to repent and redeem than they deserve. It is a naivety she continues with – along with other hysterical Australians – in the matter of the execution of convicted drug smuggler, Van Nguyen.

This great Australian hysteria, occurring whenever its juvenile victims object to the laws of foreign countries, stems largely from Australia’s own lenient treatment of criminals.

Even though Gillian and others are fully cognisant of the penalties applying to Nguyen’s crime in Singapore and other Asian countries, they persist in unrealistic and futile charades knowing full well that they and the Australian Government has neither the ability nor the right to interfere in the legal system of another country.

Gillian asks us to think of the other “victims” involved. Well, the person who should have thought of them didn’t, and he is now to pay the ultimate price for not doing so. Nguyen was “driven” to playing a part in the addiction and possible death of other people because of his own brother’s addiction. Some real ‘caring’ there, Gillian.

Gillian’s “mitigating circumstances” reek of the good old Aussie ‘discounts’ for this and that handed out by judges carried away by their autonomy, leading to short prison sentences giving criminals the leisure to work out their next job.

We owe Singapore a debt of gratitude. With the increase of drug use among young Australians, and with no hope of anything being done by our weak governments and parents who have for two generations allowed kids to think “using” is a part of growing up, we have become a weak country, reliant on Asian countries to stop as many drug smugglers as they can.

We should at least have the courtesy to allow them to do it there own way.

I have been following the Nguyen story with varying interest over the last few weeks and find the growing lose of perspective here more than alarming. There has been much debate and talk about capital punishment and the horrors faced by the convicted and their families. This Handley article while well written still makes little mention of the victims of drug use, the mothers, brothers, sisters, daughters, sons and so. Nguyen was the instrument of his own fate, and more than that was the instrument of the fate of so many others. Trafficking in drugs is punishable by death in Singapore. The crime was committed in Singapore and so as the dispassionate observer I believe we should let their criminal justice system deal with him. Their system is built around a philosophy that is different to our own. We have in Australia been driven by a desire to embrace diversity in all its colors, does that mean that when it comes to issues we find distasteful that we should reinstate the old ideals of closed mindedness and intolerance?

The debate has made me consider the issue in some detail and I for would be happy to keep capital punishment outside our own justice system, but I do however respect the rights of other nations to deal with this in their own way. If you don’t care for their system of crime and punishment either don’t go there or don’t break their law

The biggest mistake Singapore has made is to delay the execution so prolonging the matter and giving the hounds too long to bay.
If one does not want to die for smuggling drugs in Asia one doesn't smuggle drugs.
The Asians courts are not weak like ours, they mean exactly what they say and everyone knows about it.
I wish our law courts were as severe as they are, I wish every drug dealer,every trafficker , every smuggler would be hanged by the neck until they were dead.
Then the misery and despair that many Australian families of drug addicts suffer would disappear.

Listen,

those comments by mick etc were the worst i have seen.

Its about choices. Yes, van chose to do that. But it is Australians, those you just mentioned that chose to do the drugs in the first place.

You tell me where you have heard heroin mentioned in a positive light? Nowhere, yet our people tend to keep sticking needles in their arms because Daddy did not like them or something like that. Pathetic. If there were no market, there would be no mr Nguyen to talk about.

Be empathetic at least and see that we have differing views. Australians as a whole do not want our kids to be hung for 400g or Herion, we want to see them become decent human beings, our culture is not cut and dry like Asia is, life is more valued.

Hang him hey. I wish you could watch. You are wishing for someone to be murdered. I wont have any trouble at the pearly gates, but plenty will.

Gillian Handley has made two incorrect assumptions. The first is that the death penalty is ineffective. But when Barlow and Chambers were hung thirty years ago, the newspapers that I read at the time claimed that there had been a noticeable drop in heroin importations into Australia. When two home invaders were shot dead in South West Queensland in two separate incidents, several years ago, burglaries in the Gold Coast / Brisbane areas dropped almost to zero for months after the shootings.

Her second assumption is that criminals are just ordinary guys who do stupid things, and that they are capable of remorse. The vast majority of very serious crime is committed by repeat offenders who have personalities where emotions like empathy, compassion and remorse do not even register.

Repeat offenders, who usually have Anti Social Personality Disorder (ASPD) are very different from everybody else. The extreme form of ASPD is psychopathy, and psychopaths are so emotionally dead that they can even fool lie detectors. Lie detectors work by measuring physical responses to emotional stress. The only problem with psychopaths, is that they have no emotional feelings at all, and so they can not physically respond to emotional prompts. Men like Ivan Milat can carve up a screaming woman like they are slicing up a loaf of bread.

Both psychopathy and ASPD appear to be genetically inherited and so it is no surprise that these twins are both criminal. Where one twin is criminal, then the second twin (if raised in a separate household) will become criminal at a rate that is statistically significant. (Twins Reared Apart Studies)

The best thing that any society can do with professional criminals like Nguyen, who recognize no constraints upon their unacceptable behaviour, is to simply to get rid of them. Permanently.

Thank you for your article Gillian, though I do find it quite naive.

I do not believe in capital punishment under any circumstances.

Do you really think that this was his first offence? He must have done an incredible lot of homework and footwork to become a drug mule for that amount of heroin. He must have had a lot of underworld contacts. Such contacts do not arrive on one's doorstep overnight.

The other story he spins is that his brother has a gambling addiction. Nothing rings true for me - except poor Mum's despair. So what if he and his twin brother were bashed by their stepfather as kids? Very sad, but irrevelant in the context of what he had planned and was engaging in - 22,000 hits of heroin to potentially kill hundreds of young Aussies.

Yes, I would like him transported here to one of our prisons - never to be released! He should be stripped of all human rights in a civilised society - apart from the basics of food, water, shelter (which many of our heroin addicted street kids do not have).

Psychopaths do not show remorse Gillian. How can they? They do not have a superego. If people do not have a superego they do not feel guilt. They do not feel remorse. So, they just go out and repeat the same behaviours. Good examples are paedophiles and repeated rapists.

Ng suggests in his account to the court that he is quite a bright young fellow. He could easily have found legal ways in this country to assist his "addicted" twin brother. If people in Aussie society are genuine, it is not that difficult to get help. He could have used his deceitful neurones and his boundless underworld energy to get heaps of help in this country. It seems that he did not choose to do this.

He chose to become involved in the illegalities of another country well known for barbaric laws.

I feel sorry for the Mums, Dads, Brothers, Sisters etc whose family members are dead because of drug parasites.

Cheers
Kay

Thanks to Gillian Handley for her article. Living in Europe, I cannot give any comment to Australian aspects of her deliberations. But the simple truth is not to kill a human being. The death penalty only shows one effect: to threaten with the act of murder to persuade men that brute force is the medium to get others to agree.
By the way: death can never be a "penalty" or "punishment", for all of us have to die. The captal punishment consists of the terror to expect the death.
So, death penalty consist of judicial terrorism. Terrorism initiated by "The State".

Imprisonment in a Singaporean or Malaysian jail certainly is the worst punishment one has to go through, and the practice of Caning - ordered by "law", is the utmost disgusting judicial practice ... it shows the dark and poor character of the Singaporean and Malaysian law, which will never solve the abuse of drugs, which is criminal and we have to fight against.

Morpho

Nguyen's life should be spared because he was clearly a very naive (and desperate) young man who either completely failed to consider the very serious consequences of trafficking narcotics across Asia or was unaware, oblivious to the facts. Ignorant too of the nature of the dangerous goods he was carrying and the damage and misery they would later inflict. He's clearly not of the same ilk as the evil, calculating drug syndicates / dealers who peddle death on the streets for their own selfish gain.
Just a thought - I'm no lawyer but from what I can see, Nguyen didn't actually officially enter Singapore. Surely the transit lounge of any international airport is in essence 'no man's land?', similar to being in 'International waters'. As he was about to board the plane back to Melbourne, did he have a Singapore entry stamp in his pasport - answer? no!
I think this should have been taken into consideration during his trial.

Those who condemn Nguyen would think differently if it were their son or brother. And I think this is a measure of their heartlessness to other Australians as well. How sad. Will they celebrate on the day of his death as loudly as they condemn him now?

Let's get some of perspective here.

Nguyen:

- Committed a non-violent crime
- Has had a clean record up until now
- Pleaded Guilty
- Showed remorse
- Is at a young, naive and sometimes stupid age
- Was trying to help his brother (not himself) as dumb as his methods were

Any sane justice system would've taken these factors into consideration - but no, not Singapore's.

It raises the question: Is it for justice? Or does the Singaporean government simply enjoy killing people? Their apparent tunnel vision in the case; along with the fact that it is a hanging rather something more peaceful like a lethal injection or dare I say - a mere prison sentence, suggests the latter.

When it comes to capital punishment, some may say "An eye for an eye". But this is more like "An eye for an eye lash".

...And before some idiot try’s to reply with: "But that much heroin could've killed many people!” Well... Coulda', Shoulda', Woulda'. Surely intent counts for something. He's hardly some murderous psycho, pinning people down and jabbing it into their veins now is he?

"In the early hours of Dec 2, Van Tuong Nguyen will be led from his cell to the yard where he will be hanged. He may struggle or he may walk with composure. He may be given relaxants to help him stay calm.
The hangman will place a hood over his head and the noose around his neck. At 6am, the trap door will open and his body will drop and hang until it stops writhing.
When his lifeless being is taken down, his face will be purple, engorged with blood, his neck covered with lacerations, his swollen tongue protruding out of his mouth and his eyes displaced.
Involuntary ejections of urine and faeces will stain his clothes. "

This has been published today in a Malaysian newspaper today. Icecold, without any comment.

It speaks for itself.

Morpho

I personally do not agree that capital punishment as an absolute consequence will make no difference to the drug dealers. It is a severe, and effective deterant for those who have a conscience, respect for enforced laws and who accept there is nothing in life we do without consequences, good or bad.

Everyone has their story about hardships in their lives, but the majority of people look for postive, "legal" solutions to those hardships. There is no excuse, reasoning, or appeal, that can justify engaging in illegal activities to solve such hardships.

It's fine to say that the criminal in question should be made fully aware of his/her actions and how those actions have affected their victims, victim's families, etc. But, is that enough? No, I truly do not beleive so.

So many criminals tend to be narccisistic sociopaths who when faced with their own immortality will begin to say what they beleive everyone wants to hear in a last ditch effort to gain sympathy, mercy, and reprieve from their actions.

Nguyen Tuong Van knew what he was doing, why is irrelevant, he broke the law. The world is aware of how stringent the laws are in Singapore for drug trafficking. He took his chances and has lost. Some say for every drug dealer imprisoned or put to death, 10 take their place. Perhaps, but many more lives will be saved by making an example of Nguyen Tuong Van. That may sound cold, but it is a fact.

My faith teaches forgiveness, and it is commendable to be able to forgive someone of their crimes against others, but by forgiving them hardly gives them a "get out of jail free" card - there are still consequences that must be faced.

The only other fitting punishment would be to program Mr. Van's mind to live and relive fully aware of the personal human destruction of each and every person to whom he has supplied drugs to.

The only people in this case for whom I have sympathy are his victims, his mother and brother.

I would not have any sympathy for Nguyen's brother either, Ema. He is a convicted criminal himself with conviction for heroin trafficking. He has also been implicated in a machete attack. Knowing how Vietnamese families work, it looks like heroin trafficking is a family affair.

I would say that Mr Nguyen and his brother coldly weighed the risks against the gains when Nguyen chose Singapore as his departure point to Australia. The consequences of being caught means that Singapore airport security is not as alert to drug trafficking as other notorious Asian airports, and people arriving from Singapore are not considered by Australian security to be likely drug traffickers.

When a "reformed" Vietnamese drug trafficker was interviewed on Sydney TV by a current affairs show, and asked why Cabrammatta was the drug capitol of Australia, he said. "Look, in Vietnamese culture, selling drugs is just like selling anything else. It is no big deal."

When asked about how he felt about the fact that heroin was killing 1000 Australians every year, he shrugged and said. "Most Vietnamese hate white people anyway, because of the war."

Australia has imported people as "refugees" into this country who have no respect for us, our culture or our laws. They have no gratitute to this country for giving them succour and their rate of criminal recidivism makes one suspect that foreign criminals see refugee programs as heaven sent opportunities to aquire rich new pastures to plunder. Only this week a Kuwaiti "refugee" was convicted of being the biggest welfare fraud in Centrelink history. Some of them despise Australians so much that they are quite happy to kill Australians, either through bombs or criminal behaviour, and these people obviously consider themselves at war with my society.

The world will be rid of Mr Nguyen next week and good riddance. He will be one less Vietnamese murdering Australians. Hanging a few dozen Lebanese criminals in Australia would do wonders to the present unacceptable behaviour of so many Lebs in this country

If someone said I needed welfare, my reply is what the hell is that, it is something which some migrants get a PhD when they arrive, and a classic statement from Serbia, with the latest dope, He has to get a Job to stay here, we do not hand out money for nothing. OW. They are right.
Spare a thought for the Police men and women and our ambulance attendance when they arrive at a scene of another overdose death, especially when they lean forward and see such a young soul stolen from the living. The Politics and Bureaucrats of Liberalism at work the criminals of our society amongst the Gang land and ethnic Crime grouping, an undeniable link.
Hanging is to messy, lethal injection will suffice: Retrospective laws apply. Singapore’s society is a clean and a lot safer than Australia, need not investigate the reason for that. It is obvious.
Rednecks summary is very accurate and clear.

The case shows the extent to which the media drives politics ,
the arbitriness of the media and that it is possible to get any legal opinion you wish for from virtually any lawyer.Nguyen Tuong Van played Russion roulette and lost He was caught trying to smuggle a considerable amount of heroin a serious crime in Australia.
The media have turned him into a hero , and virtually every politician in Australia has leaped onto the bandwagon.

Michelle Leslie by contrast was found with two ecstacy pills in her handbag. In Australia she would have been told to drink lots of water. Because she used her intelligence to get out of jail the media have turned her into a villain.

Drug dealers do not create demand for drugs. The demand already exists; drug dealers only clear the market with supply. By instituting criminal penalties for drug related crimes the government only generates a lucrative market in which risk premiums are driven to a zenith. That alone, in a black market industry will create violence, as agents within that industry are willing to use weapons as a means to gaining market share.

Therefore the assertion that 'Nguyen Tuong Van's death will make no difference to the drug dealers' is false, because it will create a more lucrative drug market, though marginally affecting supply and demand through price increases at the [inelastic] consumer level.

By creating a more lucrative market, Singapore risks more drug related crime, as drug dealers quarrel with each other to maintain their share of the market, and addicts struggle to meet the new prices.

I do, however, agree with Gillian on the consensus that it is profoundly stupid to execute anyone, much less an individual that hasn’t committed a violent crime. Though some might argue that they are implicitly harming addicts. I tend to disagree with that last remark.

I feel a tremendous amount of compassion for Nguyen. I see in him, something my own son almost.... got involved in. Most of his 'friends' of his 16-18 yrs period are either dead or in Jail or running from the police. One of his closest friends, a Cambodian, became a heroin user, his brother a dealer.

The Singapore authorities, have clearly stated and have well known laws about the consequences of carrying drugs on their territory. As far as the "Law" goes, there is no escape, no mercy, no way out. If you do the crime.. u do the time or hang.
How many of us, in our lives have gone past 'signs' of a similar nature ? Those signs may have simply been alerts in our concience .. a still small voice telling us 'no', yet we did. I know in my case this has been true.

In order to understand the gospel of Gods love in Christ, one only has to imagine the judge in Singapore, having pronounced the irreversible verdict and sentence, then steps down from the bench and informed the court that 'he' will be taking Nguyen's punishment and Nguyen may go free if he wishes.

Such was the act of God, in Christ giving Himself to the cross on our behalf.

In terms of the topic, and the rightness or wrongness of the death penalty, I prefer not to comment on the sovereign law of an independant country in this case.

Remember Alexander Downer's comment "The only hope now, ..is a miracle."

I hope and pray that Nguyen will understand these words

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Mat 11.28

Perhaps the greatest miracle would be for Nyuyen's last words to be 'Forgive me, forgive them'.

Morpho,

So glad you live in Europe! What you are describing, second hand, is strangulation or garroting. The person who wrote the drivel you recycled has been reading horror stories or thinking of the wild west where they threw a rope over a tree branch and whipped the victim's horse from under him, leaving him swinging in the breeze until he died of asphixiation.

Judicial hanging is done by an expert. The hangman in Singapore has several hundred exections to his credit. There is a carefully measured drop which leads to the snapping of the spinal cord. I cannot say that death is always instantaneous, but Ngyuen will know nothing about it. He will probably be sedated.

So, let's not have unsubstantiated, emotional claptrap heaped on an already emotional matter.

I would also like to argue that the inconsistency with which Singapore applies its laws and sentencing regimes is reprehensible. Last year in a raid on a 'society' party a number of well connected 'personalities' were charged with a number of offences, including cocaine, ecstacy and ice use and trafficking. All but one was released on bail. In one case, that of the son of 2 prominent judges, the initial expectation was a sentence of 18-24 months prison. Defended by an MP lawyer , he got 12 months,on appeal reduced to 8 months as the judge ruled the sentence to be manifestly excessive. One of the other accused who barely managed to escape the mandatory death after tests in Europe re purity of the cocaine and y under the DEATH limit, was eventually sentenced to 5 years.Why? Because one of the key witnesses disappeared.He had been released on bail and allowed to leave the country for treatment for depression( court permission). So this guy went from the possibility of death to 20 - life to a final sentence of 5 years for cocaine trafficking. Needless to say his is rich, famous and part of the Singapore 'society' set. Meanwhile an unemployed 38 year old with a handicapped wife and children to support was sentenced to 18 months for stealing 2 rubbish bins ( judge ruled they were expensive and their theft led to increase in litter). Also, earlier this year a Singaporean was executed for importing ( motorbike from malaysia) 4k marijuana. When his 14 year old twin sons went to shopping centres to distibuteleaflets about their father's case, the police stopped them because they featured a photo of their father, was deemed to be illegal.

I am opposed to the death penalty.In Singapore the application of the law is inconsistent, heavily biased against the poor, the uneducated,guest workers and visitors. Those with connections, the rich, powerful and well-connected get different treatment.Also concerning is the extent of the links between the SINGAPORE GOVERNMENT and drug production and distribution in Burma. GIC ( govt investment ) was a major player in partnership with the drug lord Lo hsing Han. Profits from the trade have been farmed through the Singapore banking system for years. Lo's son, denied entry to the US for years, enters Singapore with impunity. Singapore's death policy is said to based on the old Chinese idiom " kill the chicken to scare the monkey". Unfortunately they only every really go after the chickens because they are bed with the monkeys. Their system is rotten to the core.

It's been nigh on three years. He's now resmorseful. What a joke.

And there are suddenly 20,000 signatures? So? What does that mean?

You have and are putting your mother through hell.

I do not want you to be hanged. You deserve LIFE imprisonment in an Australian gaol. NEVER to be released.

Leigh,

Thank you for your comment. I did not describe, I did not recycle. What I did was to quote an article, which has been published in a Malaysian newspaper.

I am more than unsure that this Singaporean expert´s business will create less harm and "effect" to the victim hanged by so called Long Drop method. There exists literature enough about this sad item which should not be called "drivel".

Ergo: No claptrap, just a quoted icecold voice. By the way, in the second part of that article mentioned, they describe how like "drug lords" of that area stay in best customer-relationship with a Singaporean banking house. It´s absolutely sickening.

And it is in a way disgusting to find oneself reproached thinking about this crucial bellerent subject.

Morpho.

To Kalweb.

Crime costs the Australian community an incredible $32 billion dollar per year. (Australian Institute of criminology, 2001) That is money redirected from schools, universities, hospitals, infrastructure, and scientific research, all of whom are desperately short of funds.

That cost of rising crime in western societies may be appreciated by the fact that the US state of California has opened 20 new prisons in the last thirty years and only one new university. The cost of incarcerating one high security prisoner in NSW is $70,000 dollars per year.

Graffitti alone costs the NSW State rail an incredible $60 million dollars a year to clean up. There is no graffitti problem in Singapore.

On the other hand, hospitals in the Sydney area are at "condition red" (crisis overload) seven days a week. Desperately sick people seeking treatment from casualty wards have ben turned away and some have been found dead in hospital car parks and toilet blocks. A Royal Commission found that dozens of patients at Campbelltown and Camden hospitals had died needlessly because of lack of care due to lack of funds. Companies providing medical equipment are refusing to extend normal 30 day credit to hospitals because so many are now financially bankrupt. One expectant mother was flown backwards and forwards accros the state of NSW for hours by air ambulance in a desperate search for a bed for her.

We as a society can no longer afford to kill our own productive and innocent people through neglect because we do not have the intestinal fortitude to do whatever is necessary to get rid of the criminals who have declared war upon our people and our society.

If the death penalty is inappropriate to the defence of our people in every circumstance, then logically, we must disarm the Australian Army right now and replace their Steyr assault rifles with frying pans.

Morpho,

It was also printed in “The Australian”, and I repeat it is drivel, which you did recycle without checking its authenticity. Like you, your source has never been in a hanging shed.

Only true ‘tragics’ believe what they read in newspapers.

The ‘Long drop’ method, eh? Nothing to do with hanging, dear. The expression is used to describe an outdoor dunny.

And, one is disgusted to find oneself reproached, is one? This one wonders what one is supposed to make of a ‘bellerent’ subject. A word not familiar to one in this neck of the woods. One’s Macquarie and Roget don’t know it either.

We have enough of our own anarchists and reds in Australia, thankyou Morpho. Surely there is enough for you to comment on and whinge about in that total wreck, Europe.

Despite the overwhelming evidence Nguyen Van Tuong was found guilty of drug trafficking and sentenced to the gallows in Singapore next Friday - frustrated Polly's,journalist, jurist and a plethora of self-indulgent hypocrites, have ALL - ineffectively tried to overturn a Sovereign Nation's Legislative Powers, eg Singapore's.
Over weeks, I have read the greatest ' bleeding-heart' trash from people like Kevin Rudd, Phillip Adams, Madonna King et al, who have unabashedely, twisted statistics to suit private agenda's, and even tried to gain mileage by focusing on the grotesque details of death - by hanging. Journalism has sunk to new lows.
We, as a Sovereign Nation should know better. We resent unequivocally, anybody telling us how to behave - our sporting hero's, our culture, heritage. Tantamount to committing treason. ABSOLUTELY non-negeotiable.
Yet, there is abounding evidence, we have a penchant for rediculing other people's way of life - meddle in their LAWS,religion, customs and even to the way they dress- G forbid.
Remind me - we are a minnow in the Cosmo's. Economically not even among the G8 ! A parody. A sycophant of GB. Will we ever get past being the ' sheriff of the Pacific " or quote " the a---hole of the World " Paul Keating.
After the 2002 Bali bombing, there was a tumultuous uproar from the Ozzie public, when Ambrosi and cohorts were convicted, their sentences commuted. We bayed for the Death Penalty. Nothing less would suffice. Shrink's call it " selective amnesia " ??
This month, the US celebrated their 1000th execution since 1976 ! Florida still executes Drug traffickers.Until this year, the US were executing juveniles as young as 13 years !
China, Japan, Korea's, Vietnam, Malaysia and Indonesia, etc continue to practice Capitol Punishment.
The Stats and data analysis paint a grim picture of the inhuman treatment meted on the underclass, impoverished, drug-mules, destitute, and 'coloured'.
Having said this, please spare me a 'one-eyed', jaundiced, approach to G Handley's dictum.
Cheers

Listening to Beazely and Rudd this morning was sickening. They are piously making this drug smuggler out to be an innocent, naive,unfortunate martyr when he was attempting to bring in drugs that could kill your kids and mine.
What is so wrong with these fools? Do they ever read the media to understand how the public thinks? Or do they intend to sit on the opposition for ever?
The Australian public hates drug traffickers, we want them stopped anyway possible.
The pollies are windbags with no idea.

Redneck

Thanks for your last post. I found it challenging and well argued. I still have difficulty with the notion of murdering a person.

Cheers
Kay

Redneck,
I resent your racial slurs.If you can't keep your posts free of racial vilification maybe find somewhere else to rant.You have no idea how Vietnamese families work and the implication you make is offensive as well as being totally bloody ignorant.

The death penalty is abhorent but then that is the view of somebody from a relatively enlightened country. Singapore is not democratic and is certainly not particularly civilized--think Australia in the fifties.
Fifties thinking is still present among in Austrlia--think One Nation Supporters. Now think about persuading a bloody minded One Nation Supporter with a fifties mentality and you have some idea of the problem of dealing with Singapore. There is nothing anybody can do to save this young man however, one might be able to help make Singapore a slightly more civlized country and remember that in comparison with its Asian neighbours Signapore is relatively enlightened. A good place to start might be for liberally inclined Australians to abandon relativism and to be much more committed to enlightenment values.

Redneck, you have a very appropriate name. I can think of some other good ones too, but in the interests of trying to be polite will leave them out of here.

Do you have any idea about any of the things you are are talking about? Do you have any evidence for any of your claims? What is your source showing that burglaries dropped to almost zero in Queensland after two home invaders where shot dead? What is your source for the assertion that most repeat criminal offenders entirely lack empathy, compassion and remorse? Where is your evidence that Van Nguyen is a repeat offender? What on earth does the fact that California has built more prisons have to do with Australian crime rates? And even if it does have something to do with it, has building all those prisons (largely to house people convicted of drug offences, I believe) stopped people in California using drugs? Has hanging people in Singapore stopped people smuggling drugs through there? Perhaps they should introduce tougher penalties and hang them twice?

And what do you mean about our society killing "productive and innocent people" through neglect..if you are referring to the people who suffer through using illegal drugs, I hope you are equally concerned about the much greater number of people who die or have their lives destroyed by the legal drugs alcohol and tobacco? Perhaps we should string up the owner of the local pub? I reckon his products have killed a few Aussies over the years? Maybe he just hates white people and doesn't care if they die..

Anyway, I'm not silly enough to think that any of this will make a difference to you or like minded posters, but I reckon you've got a nerve talking about empathy and compassion when calling for the death of another human being. I hope life doesn't make you any bitterer.

Drink and drive and you're a bloody idiot. Smoke yourself to death and you can't say you didn't see the warnings. But when it comes to drugs somehow it's Van Nguyen's fault that "our kids" are in danger. He broke the law and should be in prison, but don't try and justify his barbaric murder by blaming him for the self-inflicted misery of every fool who ever stuck a needle in their arm.

To follow up on Hellothere's comment, in 2000, 97% of worldwide drug deaths were from tobacco and alcohol, that's almost 7 million deaths. Only 3% were from illicit drugs. How many people would argue we should blindly accept another country's laws if Australians were on death row in foreign countries for dealing in alcohol (or practising homosexuality, committing adultery etc) ?

I could say do the crime do the time , but everyone deserves a second chanceoes to show u dont mess with these countries with drugs I might think twice before travelling next time with my meds in toe

I agree Hellothere and Evazan.

Idiots like Redneck will harp on about executing drug dealers but if you were to suggest executing an executive of an alcohol company, who - by his logic - is an even BIGGER menace to society, then their response would be "But they're not forcing anyone to drink". Well, as I pointed out in my previous post above, Nguyen wasn't pinning people down and jabbing it into there veins.

Capital punishment supporters such as Redneck rattle-off statistical crime rate figures and the economic costs of prisoners but completely ignore the figures when it comes to the execution of innocent people; or the strange inconsistencies in America from state-to-state. Like, why does Texas execute nearly twice as many people as the rest of the states combined when - in all states (with capital punishment) - execution is only supposed to be reserved for the most heinous of murders? You can't tell me that Texas has THAT many murderers.

I guess they agree with George W Bush. Who - when Governor of Texas - once said...

[QUOTE] "If you're asking me whether or not I feel like that everybody who's been executed is guilty of the crime to which they, t-t-t-t-t which they had b-b-been c-c-c, to which, t-t-to which they had been convicted of, then they answer is yeah, I believe that". [UNQUOTE]

And Leigh,

How narrow minded are you? Morpho displays compassion and suddenly he's an anarchist who wants to overthrow governments!

Those bleeding-heart, lefties you seem to despise so much are responsible for the women's rights that you now enjoy...

...you silly twit.

Oh... Just a couple of questions...

To those of you who support Nguyen's hanging and have sooo much respect Singapore's judicial system...

1. Do you also respect the Singaporean government's ties to drug barons?

2. Do you not see their blatant hypocrisy in the whole case?

I hardly see how hanging a drug dealer is going to solve anything when their government is in bed with the "Dons" of the drug world.

In my first post I raised the question...

>>Is it for justice? Or does the Singaporean government simply enjoy killing people? Their apparent tunnel vision in the case; along with the fact that it is a hanging rather something more peaceful like a lethal injection or dare I say - a mere prison sentence, suggests the latter.<<

I guess it really IS the latter.

Oh Dear, Ho Hum, boring, can't understand for the life of me, why the Singapore Govt appears to be the whipping boy in this case.
Nuyguen(or whatever) broke Singaporean law, and if he was successful, there's not a doubt in my mind, he would've been more then happy, to do it again, never once giving thought to the lives he was destroying as a consequence.
As you can tell from above, I harbour no sympathies for this criminal whatever.
However, I am VERY confused at all the hand wringing evidanced here regarding the death penalty and the fact that it appears Singapore seems to be the recipient and whipping boy on this issue.
It has come to my attention, that despite the villification being directed at Singapore on this issue, there is a country that carries out far more death sentences then Singapore does, yet that country does not receive one iota of vilification for it's actions.
Now that, I find very strange indeed.
I'd suggest readers visit this site ;

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.mpl/front/3482978

After a 10-year moratorium, Gilmore in 1977 became the first person to be executed following a 1976 U.S. Supreme Court decision that validated state laws to reform the capital punishment system.

Since then, 997 prisoners have been executed, and next week, the 998th, 999th and 1,000th are set to die. Robin Lovitt, 41, will likely be the one to earn that macabre distinction next Wednesday.

Now I'd be more then interested to hear, why we have one train of thought in the case of Singapore, and another completetly different case on the U.S.'s stand.

I agree with some of you with respect to the deep levels of political and judicial corruption in many Asian and Pacific Rim countries. However, self-serving corruption does not mean uncivilized. Having said that, let me pose a question to all of you opposed to capital punishment. First of all, there are many arguments that claim capital punishment is an effective deterant, make an example of someone and others like them will either think twice or devise more careful meassures to not get caught. I must say in this case, I believe the punishment fits the crime. Some of you have said that it is not right to execute this man, that those to whom he sold the drugs to did so of their own free will and he should not be punished for that. O.k. fair enough. But the same can be said of this man - no one told him to traffick narcotics, no one forced him to traffick narcotics, he made this choice himself thinking by doing so, it was a quick fix to all of his financial worries. He knew right from wrong. He clearly exhibited intent, his plans were calculated, he knew the possible consequences and went ahead and broke the law anyway. His actions were pre-meditated and well thought out. He is far from being innocent. Now, here's the question - how would you feel, if this man sold narcotics to one of your family members, who made the choice to try it and as a result, died of a leathal overdose. Your family member had never tried drugs before, but nontheless, has and has died. Would you blame the dealer or you family member? Regardless, would you not believe that the dealer should pay a heavy price for his part in their death?

Now, here is another interesting issue involving a meth dealer and the recovering addict he sold to. This is a case currently before the court in Canada - please follow the link and read the article and tell us what are your thoughts about this as an alternative to capital punishment. Keep in mind, what is the actual probability she would see a dime?

http://www.courttv.com/news/2005/1025/bergen_ctv.html

Every human life is precious and is far more precious than any punishment we may deal out. The death penalty has been shown NOT to be a deterent to crime. From a distance some can and do speak comfortably about this young Australian being hung in another country.

Yes you might get some exilaration from standing on top of a high moral arguement but at the end of the day its a life that is being wasted to please a beleif in the myth of capital punishment.

The Prime Minister of this country has not stated his position on capital punishment clearly and I just can't help but wonder about what he really thinks. His silence is telling me much.

To Hellothere

This is a debate site, sonny, not an Inquisition. Thirteen questions in one post is not acceptable. The “Load ‘em up with a zillion questions” routine is a common tactic used by people who wish to conceal their ignorance and who are unable to formulate a reasoned argument to support their views. Rednecks are too smart to fall for that. But just to show my good intentions, I will agree to answer all of your questions, AFTER I apply your own tactics on you, and you to answer mine.

1. Do you have any idea about what you are talking about?

2. By what rationale do you suppose that the death penalty will not help control drug trafficking?

3. Would you rather be a drug pusher in Australia or Singapore?

4. Why?

5. If you were a heroin courier, would you smuggle heroin through Singapore?

6. If not, why not?

7. Over 1000 people died of heroin overdoses in Australia last year. How many died in Singapore?

8. Did anybody die of a heroin overdose in Singapore last year?

9. Can you name one book on criminology that you have read?

10. Can you name one book that you have ever read, other than Harry Potter?

11. Has your residential circumstances ever allowed you to live with very real violent criminals, where you could check the personality profiles of criminals given by Psychologists and Criminologists, against your own personal experiences?

12. Since hard drug pushers routinely murder their competitors they are therefore known to be great believers in the death penalty themselves. Why should they be exempt from the same punishment that they routinely inflict on others?

13. Is the fact that Singapore is doing so well economically, because they prefer to spend their money on scientific research and education instead of building more jails, injecting rooms, drug rehabilitation clinics and cemeteries?

Redneck,
In relation to q13, it is not the case that Singapore is doing economically well.There is a modest bounce-back from the collapse of 1997. IT industry, hardware and soft is dead. Govt wants biotech to replace it...fat chance given the competition. Unemployment is at a 30 year high. Accelerating rate of migration by the well-educated ( most notably to Australia) and liberal-minded. Government decided to have a creative Arts industry and somehow noticed that the gay community was a major contributor to the development of it. But when gays started to be more public and open , the PAP decided they would rather revert to their previous " no perverts" policy and forego the creative arts. Money laundering is still a big industry.

Redneck,

If it wasn't for you, the limp left wouldn't have anything to say.They have no ideas of their own, so you give them a rare chance to screech. They should be grateful to you. I am. I really enjoy my private judging of the best hissy of the day from the loony left. Don't they just hate anyone with an opinion?

Space Cadet,

I don't mind being called a silly twit, but where do you get the idea that I am a woman? I'm all for womens' rights, but as a male, I don't receive any benefit from them. In fact, when my wife, two daughters and granddaughter gang up on me, I'm the one who needs help, but we don't have mens' rights yet.

I don't think that you will ever graduate from the cadets if you think you can pick the sex of someone you don't know just by the spelling of their name.

Apparently this fellows brother was so deeply involved in crime that he has racked up enormous debts. His creditors were on his back and his brother went to the drugs to in a failed attempt to trade his brother out of his mess. His brother has had a very astute make over by his legal team. Has undergone a transformation from low grade yo boy street criminal to, based on his suit and haircut, fine upstanding citizen.

Its a pity to see what his younger brother has gotten himself into, then again he made his bed.

Only way to 'solve' the drug crime problem is to remove the crime... decriminalise. Seventy years of war on drugs has done nothing short of creating a massively monied industry. The billions of narco-dollars swilling around create massive incentive and opportunity for corruption. The bribes going around range in the millions. The illicit drug trade is said to be the third largest in the world after foreign exchange and military industries. In fact drug trade is intametly linked with gun running and money laundering, so that these three areas are joined at the hip. Anything short of decriminilastion is just band aid solution and certainly not interested in arresting this problem.

Decriminalise, legislate, regulate and tax. Recently a team of economist head up by Milton Freindman no less arrived at the inescapable cinclusion that illicit drug trade casues massive spending pressures on the taxpaying populace and could be turned on its head overnight with a rather obvious solution.

Until the power that wont be get serious more people will die needlessly, before, during and after a needle is involved.

Redneck,

I think the point you are trying to make is that the Singapore government is "tough on crime"!

Unfortunately, if you were living in Singapore today you would not be able to post to this Forum as the media is totally subservient to the government and no opportunity exists for alternate opinion. There is little mention and NO debate on the imminent execution in Singapore.

You could also be jailed for dropping a paper bag, cigarette or any other form of litter. This is what happens in a totalitarian state. Singapore is not a democracy and yet we don;t have George or Johnny lining up to bring the "Big D" to the "freedom loving" Singaporean people.

If the death penalty has worked so well in Singapore how come 420 couriers have been executed in the past 10 years? That's 40 per year or about 1 person every week.

Seems the couriers haven't heard that the drug trade does not exist in Singapore!

Nguyen had enough heroin for 26000 hits.How many of our young would he turned into addicts and eventually killed?It only takes 3 hits to make you a self destructive pathetic slave,and you will be a burden to both your family and society.

He knew the consequences and took his chance.He won't get much sympathy from the mothers and fathers of deceased addicts.

If Ngyuen had been a base jumper and was warned of the dangers and died,there would not be a ripple of public anguish.The reply would be,"We told you so,you stupid idiot."

While I feel sorry for this boy and his family. I still don't see why all the fuss about his impending death. He is after all a drug trafficker, everyone knows the penalty for this in Singapore, so why the surprise? Unfortunate for him that he chose to deal in drugs to make some quick money! Break the rules in a foreign country and you pay for it by their rules!!

Redneck

Happy to answer your questions. I had to break the answers up into two posts to get under the word limit.

1. Do you have any idea about what you are talking about?

Yes.

2. By what rationale do you suppose that the death penalty will not help control drug trafficking?

I didn't say that. If you kill enough people, you can probably control just about anything, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

3. Would you rather be a drug pusher in Australia or Singapore?

What's a drug pusher, and where are they pushing them? Up a hill? Into the unwilling arms of schoolchildren? I wouldn't do it anywhere. But if I did, I would rather do it in Australia

4. Why?

Because here, the judicial system might take into account the fact that I was a 19 year old drug addict who had been sexually abused by her drunken stepfather from the age of 12 (for example) and give me another chance.

5. If you were a heroin courier, would you smuggle heroin through Singapore?

I might. I would consider a 20 year prison sentence to be an effective death sentence anyway. I might also be someone less fortunate than myself who didn't really care all that much about whether I lived or died.

6. If not, why not?

See answer above.

7. Over 1000 people died of heroin overdoses in Australia last year. How many died in Singapore?

I don't think over 1000 people died of heroin overdoses in Australia last year. I think it was more like 400. Which is still horrific. I don't know how many died in Singapore, quite a few die from hanging though. How many people do you think would die of heroin overdoses if they knew what it was and how strong it was when they brought it?

I like the base-jumping analogy, except that Van Nguyen isn't dead yet. Next time I come across a critically injured base-jumper, I will be sure and leave them to die so they know just how silly they have been.

You can just about justify the death penalty for anything. I'm sure Iran doesn't have many AIDs deaths, given that sex outside of marriage is a capital crime. We all know speed kills, so why not kill the speedsters ? Every K over is a killer.

I personally favour the death penalty for those who lie on their resume (paying attention Dr Patel ?).

More answers for Redneck

8. Did anybody die of a heroin overdose in Singapore last year?

I don't know. Apparently, heroin users in Singapore smoke it rather than injecting it, meaning they are much less likely to overdose. However, as far as I can tell from a fairly basic internet search, a significant number of people in Singapore still use heroin despite the severe penalties.

9. Can you name one book on criminology that you have read?

No.

10. Can you name one book that you have ever read, other than Harry Potter?

Crime and Punishment, Bleak House, Vernon God Little, Shame, Midnights Children, Tropic of Capricorn, Atonement, Player Piano, The Secret River, The Red Rose and the White, Trouble, Praise, Bliss, Specimen Days, Atonement, White Noise, Double Jeopardy, The First World War. Too many others to list. Harry Potter is good too.

11. Has your residential circumstances ever allowed you to live with very real violent criminals, where you could check the personality profiles of criminals given by Psychologists and Criminologists, against your own personal experiences?

I have been fortunate enough to avoid living with violent criminals, either real or imaginary.

12. Since hard drug pushers routinely murder their competitors they are therefore known to be great believers in the death penalty themselves. Why should they be exempt from the same punishment that they routinely inflict on others?

Because we should not adopt the morality of murders.

13. Is the fact that Singapore is doing so well economically, because they prefer to spend their money on scientific research and education instead of building more jails, injecting rooms, drug rehabilitation clinics and cemeteries?

No. Do you really think that tougher drug laws would mean less jails in Australia? And it seems that Singapore insists on people caught with drugs doing a rehabilitation course, so I'm guessing they spend a bit of money on that too. I don't think the cost of cemetaries or injecting rooms is significant in either Australia or Singapore.

Everyone seems to agree that Van Nguyen had the potential to ruin many lives with the heroin that he was planning on bringing into Australia. True, he had the potential to harm alot of lives, but has he harm anyone?

To all you Wan.kers who think that Van Nguyen should be hang, I would like to see u stand there and watch it. How many of you guys been caught drink driving? Didn't your action have the potential to kill others and adversely ruin lives? Should you be hang? Little Johnny Howard mis-led Australia about the Iraq war. How many innocent Iraqi's did he kill? Should he be hang?

Being a majority Catholic society, you guys should be ashame of yourselves calling yourself Christians. Life is precious, who are we to play God?

Jimmii

The whimpish apologists such as Jimmi demonstrates how pathetic our society has become.No one is responsible for their actions and is entitled to endless opportunities to reoffend and destroy the very society that gives them sustenance.Few have condoned the death sentence,but we have also made it clear he knew full well the chances he was taking.We have this endless stream of opologists who live for their ideals yet take no notice of daily injustices in our society that not only kill people but destroy the quality of life for millions.Their ideals apparently are more important than the "common good".If our nation is to give a minutes silence for his death,it reveals that our shallowness and homage to media generated platitudes knows no depths.We have really lost it.

The rights of the majority who slave each day to provide this fragile umbrella called civilisation must surely be heeded or we will all eventually suffer anarchy and poverty.

Order,freedom and prosperity does come at a cost.How many of us really appreciate the sacrifices of those who fought in WW2 for such freedoms under far less sympathetic conditions than Nguyen faces.I don't think he deserves to die, but he took his chances and lost.
Say a prayer for his mother.

Leigh,

Sorry for my presumptions regarding your name. I have known many Leigh’s/Lee’s and have never known of a male to spell it “Leigh”. Even Redneck made the same presumption in a previous thread by saying “Marry me” (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3856#20558) …I’m sure you remember. ;-)

And yes, where are our rights as males?

But this is all off the topic and I’d appreciate if you could give some valid justifications for my arguments against the death penalty, such as…

1. The inconsistencies from state-to-state in America’s execution rate: -

(Since 1976)
- Texas: 355

- All other states with capital punishment: 642

That’s over 1/3 when Texas only has less that 1/10 of the total population of all the execution happy states. Yet execution is reserved only for the worst of murders. (In the last few decades anyway).

2. Or why it’s alright to execute the estimated 1-5% of death row prisoners in the US who are later found to be innocent? (Figures are sketchy as authorities - for obvious reasons -suppress this data).

One could argue that it prevents murders but when you give governments and justice systems such a power, you’re setting precedence. And I for one, don’t trust politicians THAT much. Nor do I trust a sometimes flawed judicial system.

Sure, murderers kill too. But we don’t trust them to protect us, convict the guilty or run our country now do we?

Itchyvet,

To answer your questions…

I personally don’t condone America’s execution either. But there are some distinct differences…

1. The US doesn’t execute people for drug trafficking offences.
2. The US would be more willing to hand over an Australian criminal to us if we asked.
3. The US has a judicial system that would take age, prior record, a guilty plea and a show of remorse into account when deciding on someone’s death.

You say that the other countries execute more people. Of course – Singapore only has a population of 4.5 million. But per capita, it is widely believed that Singapore executes the most in the world.

[Post deleted for flaming. Poster suspended for one month.]

If Nguyen's death makes no difference to the drug dealers and potrayed as a drug mule. And Singapore and australia being civilized countries. I guess Nguyen should be spared. I guess its a straight forward thinking to that.

If thats the case, how about the bomb makers and bomb mules in indonesia that kills dozens of australians. Their Death sentences (recent indonesia death sentences to bomb maker) will make no different to terrorist as theres so many of them. The bomb maker even asked for forgiveness etc, poor background as to Nguyen. And since Indonesia and Australia are civilized countries. I guess Bomb maker should be spared; as compared to Nguyen's case.

How about we sign a petition to spare the bali bomb maker and ask john howard to get indonesia to spare him.

Spare bomb maker now! Spare them all.

Another thread talking about a death of a drug mule. Watching paint dry would be more beneficial. The subject should be rated NFI (No further Interest)

The evidence supporting the efficacy of the death penalty is equivocal at best - its application rests on the choices we make and those things we like to do - some people like to kill other people and some dont' and see it as a waste of a rope, a bullet and ultimately a life.

If the death penalty worked murder would cease, drug running would cease - and I cant see either happening.

The age old addage of "if it saves just one life" fell over as soon as we executed one person in error - let alone the countless hundreds who are still kiled in error today.

And we are awash with assertions about opponents of the death penalty being weak coupled with the like assertion that we are a weak nation - baulking at state sanctioned murder and letting in hordes of those pre disposed to crime - an errroneous claim once a longditudinal analysis of crime is undertaken - it is a stupid link but made with boring regularity.

I would contend it is far from weak to not eradicate that which we fear and far from weak to welcome the different.

Too many here are scared of crime because what it says about us as a collective - and too many of us are scared of the different because we think their principles are more strongly held and in some cases maybe more vaild than ours - hence some of want to see them dead turned back to sea.

Arjay,

"Order,freedom and prosperity does come at a cost.How many of us really appreciate the sacrifices of those who fought in WW2 for such freedoms under far less sympathetic conditions than Nguyen faces."

Thanks. That's the closest someone's come to validating the death of innocents in order to justify having the death penalty (as I've asked some self-rightious, conservative posters to do above).

...but still no cigar.

Sacrificing civillians is quite different to sacrificing soldiers who are trained and prepared to die to do their job and for a cause they believe in.

Sure, a lot of the soldiers in WWII were drafted against their wishes. But when it comes to the imposed threat to society, criminals are completely different to the Japs and Nazis. For instance, criminals (as bad as they are) don't have a government or military planning tactical manuvures to take-over of an entire country. Criminals don't have fleets of kamakaze pilots ready to destroy military targets. Nor are they gasing people by the millions; or trying to overthrow governments.

Bad comparison.

I conclude that black paint dries faster than white paint; oil / water base.

I conclude birds are superior to humans. Darn bird Blue gonna kill use all! Death to Birds! oops..no. SPARE THEM, petition for bird freedom.

arf2000,

”I guess Bomb maker should be spared; as compared to Nguyen's case.”

Another bad comparison.

Nguyen didn’t intentionally set out to kill people. And birds didn’t artificially engineer bird flu (I assume that’s what you mean by “bird blue”).

When you’re talking about ending someone’s life, intent has to count for at least something!

The world is not all black and white. And comparing drug offences to first-degree murder or terrorism - or “bird blue” for that matter - just isn’t going to cut it.

I’ve seen some pretty ignorant posts on this forum before, but your last one takes the cake. If you find this thread so boring then why do you keep posting?

At least Leigh and Redneck display some intelligence from time-to-time; with points worth debating. You’re just an idiot.

Considering the baseless arguments supporting capital punish in this thread, it seems the opinion of the conservative-right on this issue is purely anger-driven with no rationality whatsoever.

Drugs, war and terrorism

" Bad comparison. " by space cadet.

This is a cultural divide. It is the stories we tell ourselves. For western civilization ... this reshaping of opinion was the 60s and 70s. Drug usage became an anti establishment message, rites of passage, coming of age. For the Asians, its shame. China was brought down to its knees by opium, traded by the British. For our communities, its the stories of triads, organised crime and murder fuel by huge profits. Watch our movies and yours.

It is the weapon of choice besides bombing for terrorist.. (drugs for western youths as to alcohol to indigenous natives) It produces double effect ... destruction to families and profits for further crime and terrorism. Its Osama groups harvesting their crop in afganistan for use in the west. Likewise its the western govt doing some drug running to undermine their opponents.

Do not be surprised that some Govts that introduces capital punishment detest the loss of lifes through it more than those who oppose it. You take this same loathing of senseless loss mulitplied by many ... and you are angered enough to introduce it.

One mule once it enters into your system destroys many.

Capital punishment, its barbaric nature as you say, is incredibly hard to implement and to pronounce. It weighs heavily on the judges. Hence the law spares the judges by its clarity.

It is so easy to say do away with it. But you remember the many, the stories that were told and the destruction that you see.

Capital punishment is abhorent -- Eliminate it by not doing the crime.

Thanks Be Outrage,you saved me the effort.Most of the diggers in WW2 volunteered.I wonder how many would today if we were under threat of invasion.

The younger generation should know that the few remaining Diggers from WW2 just shake their heads in disbelief and disgust at the degeneration of our societies standards,morals and ethics.

Drugs will not only destroy our culture,but our viability as a nation.If we continue to take all the soft options of the left,then we all may as well inject,smoke a joint and not bother turning up to work tomorrow.

Sometimes it is harder to live than to die,so some take the road of gradual death via drugs.I've seen people in total poverty in India with more grace and self respect than than any Australian so called poor.No one starves here unless you have an addiction.We have lost our values and the strength of the family unit.The Asian cultures still have their family unit in tact,but we have destroyed ours with social security and images of unattainable Hollywood glamour.

It all boils down to this;Is the future worth fighting for?

Be Outrage,

Good points!

I still have some reservations with comparing the affects drug traffickers to the direct slaughter of a military attack. But as you correctly point out, opinion can be affected by culture.

Arjay,

“It all boils down to this;Is the future worth fighting for?”

Yeah, it does boil down to that but surely there are much better ways of fighting for culture and viability than capital punishment.

How about we attempt to mend some of the core problems in society before we start running the risk of killing innocents? A pipe dream, maybe. But we haven’t even attempted it yet.

”Most of the diggers in WW2 volunteered. I wonder how many would today if we were under threat of invasion.”

Virtually all of them.

If Australia is invaded, then give me a gun – I’ll be their on the frontline!

I couldn’t possibly think of anyone who wouldn’t.

MP links Nguyen, RU486 debate

December 01, 2005
A LIBERAL MP has tried to link tomorrow's execution in Singapore of Australian Van Tuong Nguyen to the debate over the abortion pill RU486.

Pro-life Tasmanian Michael Ferguson has accused fellow MPs of double standards on the two issues.

"It's breathtaking hypocrisy for some people in the Australian parliament to be fighting to save one young man's life, while at the same time fighting for a drug which will allow the death penalty to be imposed on unborn babies," he said.

"Certainly in the new year when the abortion debate begins anew, I think that we ought again to be reminded of this week in Australian parliament, of this week in international relations, when people were fighting for the sanctity of life."

...................o0o...........................

Opposition women's affairs spokeswoman Tanya Plibersek said it is disgusting for Mr Ferguson to link a tragedy like Nguyen's execution to a debate over the availability of a drug.

"For anyone to try and profit from what's happening tomorrow for a short-term point score like that, I think is just tasteless in the extreme," she said.

...................o0o...........................

Hmmm... perhaps Tanya to denigrate Ferguson rather than sticking to the debate is 'tasteless and disgusting'; you'd think¿

So- given that one guilty dealer/mule/smuggler and thousands of innocent children are both to sentenced to death and executed => accepted facts for Australia December 2005

A rather clear and simple question; how do you - Tanya - resolve the extreme 'sanctity of life' contradiction¿

{Note:-
1. No points will be given for 'those whom you think disgusting'.

2. Take as given - carrying drugs is 'tasteless in the extreme' & killing innocent children defies moral and ethical cognition.

3. In your own wêds pliza... )

REDNECK,

OH redneck. You poor un-educated fool. All i can say to your comments is this.. Your saying that asians hates australians? Well, if they happen to do so.. i can only think of one reason why.. and all the fingers are pointed at the likes of YOU! U racist RECNECK!
Get a life and some education before u start rambling on like a mouth resembling a womans genitals.

Shayla

After you offensive post I am amazed that you have not been sent to the "sin bin".

" ... a mouth resembling a womans [sic] genitals" says a lot about your education, ability to engage in sound argument, and your obvious dislike of the female population. Correction: " ... a mouth resembling a woman's genitalia" is the correct grammar. Whatever the case, as a female, I found this to be a most disgusting and offensive remark - and one hardly indicative of sound education.

" ... you poor un-educated [sic] fool". Uneducated is one word. It does not require hyphenation. Calling a person a fool without valid evidence is indeed foolish in itself.

" ... reason why ... ". The reason is why. And why is the reason. Redundancy here.

" ... your [sic] saying that asians [sic] hates [sic] australians [sic]". Did you mean: " ... you're saying that Asians hate Australians"? Note that proper nouns require upper case for the first letter of the word. You are, does not mean your.

I seldom agree with Redneck's assertions. Even so, I know that he does his 'homework' and I do not need to be insulting to have a debate with him.

I suggest that you have another think before calling Redneck uneducated. You are not in a position to challenge another's articulation. You are not aware of sentence structure, the proper use of punctuation, and the correct use of upper and lower case.

The next time I speak with you I will stick to the topic at hand.

Space Cadet you have missed many points.Myself and others have said that Nguyen does not deserve to die,yet you ignore these facts and accuse all of of wanting the death penality.We cannot change the laws of another country.How would you feel if Singapore interferred with our Judicial system?

Don't try to miss represent my clearly articulated ideas,since you only destroy your credibility.

OH MY GOD! KEWLAB,

The thought that u had enough time to sit there and type and tell me all about lower and upper cases and grammar and actually check my spelling mistakes etc.. YOU are sooooooooooooo sad! lol get a life!

Like i said, REDNECK is a uneducated fool. If you agree with him then so are you. But then again, you both may have been educated in a sense that u both have gone to school.
But i guess no amount of education can teach you about compassion , forgiveness, humanity and to have a good heart.

Wether its right or wrong, no one deserves to die.

I pray that Nguyen Van may find peace and i will also pray for his mother that she may find strength and courage.
I will pray to all those lives that was lost to drugs and their loves ones.
But most of all i will be praying for the singaporean government and their judges who condemn this young man to die in a such barbaric and inhumane way. I will also be praying for all you idiots on here who agree to kill another human being. Two wrongs dont make a right and no one is in the position to say some one should or should not die.
God has forgiven Van..i just hope god and van will forgive all of you for your coldness towards another human being.

Like i said, Wether its right or wrong no one deserves to die.
Everyone deserves a second chance in life especially for some one so young. Where is all the compassion, humanity and forgiveness?
Is this what the world has come to? No wonder so many young people like me fall off the rails.

Rest in peace Van.. Your going to a far better place than here.

Arjay,

“Myself and others have said that Nguyen does not deserve to die”

I know. I even noticed in one of your posts that you said that he didn’t deserve to die.

But when you said…

“Order,freedom and prosperity does come at a cost.How many of us really appreciate the sacrifices of those who fought in WW2 for such freedoms under far less sympathetic conditions than Nguyen faces";

…after my responses to the forum members who support capital punishment for drug offenders despite the risk of killing innocents;

...and...

"you saved me the effort" When Be Outrage gave another perspective on the comparison of drug offenders and an attacking foreign millitary...

I naturally assumed that you were implying that it is worth the risk of killing innocents (not drug offenders) for freedom and prosperity. I fair assumption I think (It seems we are both starting to misread eachother).

But if that’s not what you were getting at then either you hadn’t read my posts or you were talking about something completely different.

For the record I completely agree with your comments like…

“The younger generation should know that the few remaining Diggers from WW2 just shake their heads in disbelief and disgust at the degeneration of our societies standards,morals and ethics”

…I too shake my head at these things all the time. And if my posts have made me seem pro-drug, then it is only because I refute the radical “kill ‘em all!” attitude of members like Redneck and Leigh.

Shayla,Redneck is not an uneducated fool.He just lacks tact and doesn't know about political correctness.Talking in genetic terms there are certain races that don't perform to our standards of intellectual rigor and economic competance.Individually we all know people who are exceptions to the rule and there in lies the dilemma.
In the realm of academia they portray individuals of the exceptional minority racial groups as the norm,when clearly they are not.There will always be exceptions to the rule.

If we look at the crime statistics and social security dependance of certain races,there is a definite correlation with race and their propensity to be a burden to our society.

Why do we continue to punish ourselves in the name of idealistic naievity?

If we are going to have prosperous country,we need ethical, intelligent people with a positive work ethic or end up with the economic and cultural abyss that many have come here to escape.People tend to bring the culture of depravity and chaos with them,because they have at some stage failed to confront it.

Shayla

I do not agree with capital punishment. I have never ever said that I agree with Redneck and others who want death as a penalty for any criminal act ( and have you forgotten that he did commit a criminal act?). I do not agree with killing or murder for any reason.

With empathy and compassion, I haved nursed people affected by drug substances for the past 30 years.

The last young person I nursed was 18 years of age. He was totally psychotic as a result of: bundy rum++, cigarettes ++, daytura ++, amphetamines ++, and of course, organic yandi X 6 times usual strength of THC. I doubt that you have my experience with young people in this regard. If you do, please let me know. I will be very interested.

I was trying to show you that you cannot make assertions about others without substantive evidence. All you were doing was slinging insults at Redneck. That is no way to win a debate. You claim that he is uneducated, yet you do not seem to be able to engage in debate.

I feel sad for Ng and his family. No-one deserves to die by hanging. It is deplorable.

And Shayla, getting back to the issue. Do you think that his barbaric hanging by the Singaporian Government will make any difference to drug dealers? I doubt it. And I doubt that drug mules, such as Ng and the Bali 9 would be feeling any empathy or compassion if they had not been caught in their diabolical behaviours.

They were all bringing illicit drugs into Australia - to kill young Aussies.

Regards
Kay

Hi Kay.

Its Shayla.
I would just like to apologise for my comments, i just been feeling alot of sadness and anger about this whole story and case.
Just some things that Redneck others said didnt agree with me and yes i did say 'two wrongs dont make a right' so i shouldnt be lashing back at him or anyone just cos i dont agree with their opinions, my apologies.

Its just i really feel that by killing some one , it wont fix the problem. There will always be drugs out there and there will always be some one smuggling it into our countries and some one will always be there to buy it and use it.

No one should be killed especially when the punishment doesnt fit the crime, same goes with the bali 9. They shouldnt be executed either. No one has a right to kill another human being. Right or wrong.
By punishing them to life imprisonment, that would already make them suffer enough in my opinion.

But anyways, nothing can be done now as Nguyen van is going to die in a few hours and the bali 9 will most likely be awaiting the same fate that was bestowed upon Van. I really feel for each and everyone of them. Because To me, execution and robbing some one of their life (right or wrong) is not punishment, its murder.

Kay,

Also, yes i do know and have had experience what drugs do to others.
My older brother was a former heroin addict and user. The hell that it brang to my family and to witness and see my brother like that was just terrible. But he didnt stop there, he took all drugs u could imagine and ended up being a schizophrenic and had to be hospitalised at Warratah House Mental institute in CAmpbelltown Hospital here in Sydney. But luckily he has now gotten better and is having a second chance at life to be a better person.

When all this happened, never once did my family and i blame the drug dealers or drug mules. It was simply the stupidity and free will of my brother to go and buy and use these drugs in the first place. No one forced him to buy it or shoot it up his arms.
So to be honest he had no one to blame but himself.
But luckily he got a second chance to fix his life and his mistakes.
Sadly, Nguyen Van wont get to have that privilidge.

Shayla,

I read you posts and understand your emotional involvement in this debate but saying, " never once did my family and i blame the drug dealers or drug mules. It was the stupidity and free will of my brother to go buy and use these drugs in the first place. No-one forced him to buy or shoot it up his arms", although true, completely ignores the fact that the high-availability and low-cost of heroin (and other drugs) is an enormous factor in what happened to your brother and many like him.

I've had 5 or 6 experiences of losing friends, family members and even a mentor (Brett Whiteley) to heroin and am convinced that the easy availability makes choosing to take drugs when one is vulnerable or depressed, a more likely option. Take away the supply and people will be more inclined to face up and deal with their problems and issues, giving them closure on things that trouble them instead of hiding in an artifical coccoon as a way of masking their pain.

And for all of the people that I have seen buried from this, never once did I see flowers from there dealers saying, "Sorry, we wish we'd known you under better circumstances." They just don't care about the havoc they reak on addicts, families and society in general, so I tend to agree with Redneck and others that we should show them exactly the same indifference.

And, for what it's worth, Van Nguyen certainly was no "innocent victim" caught in some terrible mix up trying to save his brother from evil baddies, he was familiar enough with the drug trade to be able to hook up with some 'Big Fish' to arrange his evil mission. I would not be surprised to find out in time that he had previously been a heroin dealer at one time or another. Please don't swallow whole all this 'he was a good boy playing saviour' clap trap, it's highly dubious at best.

I do agree that a prayer for his mother would be right, at the moment.

...

Yep, I can agree to that, but we better brace ourselves for the emotion of the hero’s, those staunch Drug advocates, the mediocrity club, the people that are bigger dopes when they are off the substance then become mediocrity dopes when on it, there are 9 more to be shot in Indonesia. I don’t think I can handle another media emotional hero day for the drug runner’s exhibition.Clever ploy in humane psychology though, for those who do not realise the Lefts tactics, tugg harder and harder on the heart strings.Singapore: This is more fitting than waisting 75 thousand dollars a year to keep the scum in our Inconvenient Hotels some call prisons.

To all posters

I was apalled, disgusted, embarassed, and ashamed that Premier Beattie held a minute's silence in Qld Parliament today for a convicted and self confessed drug runner.

Historically, a minute's silence is for people who have served our country (WW1 WW11 Vietnam etc). It is meant for people who faught for us off our shores to ensure our freedom. It is meant to be reverrent, vis a viz: Anzac Day and Rememberance Day. It is also for people who have done incredible community work for our country, and people who have sadly died (such as the Bali Bombings).

It is not for bloody drug runners!

So is the Beattie Government now going to have: two mins silence for the two drug runners who are about to be shot in Vietnam? And nine mins silence in Parliament for the Bali Nine (if they are executed)?

These people are criminals. They are not heros. They are not champions. They are not loyal to our country. They are dishonest and egocentric. They can read: Drugs = death penalty.

I do not believe in the death penalty in Australia. I cannot condone the death penalty in other countries - but that is their law.

I am offended that the Beattie Government has dishonoured the memory of our people who have faught for this wonderful country. I hope that the RSL and the Vietnam Vets go to town on this one!

Regards
Kay

G'day All,

I too, am sick of the bleeding heart left turning Van Nguyen into some sort of righteous martyr instead of properly acknowledging him to be the convicted, evil, self-centred peddler of death that he was.

Singapore has got the right approach to this; don't spend $70,000 a year for the next thirty years ($2.1m) on somebody of this ilk only to have him probably die in prison and require a state burial or end up a welfare recipient. What's the point? His life was over when he went for sentencing. He was never going to get off lightly as he would here.

And if you really care to thik about it, I mean, ... REALLY care to think about it, and YOU were given the choice between ...30 years in Changi OR ...a quick, relatively painless way out, which one would YOU choose?

Me? I'd be dangling on the end of that rope - no question. Despite the flaming I'll undoubtedly get, I reckon of the two options, hanging is FAR more humane. Ask any of our WWII vets that were incarcerated there for only a few years and see what they say about the prospect of spending 30 years there, I would doubt many of them would think that any sort of imprisonment there would be MORE humane.

Maybe you lefties need to REALLY think about this a whole lot more, come down from your lofty towers of academia and imagine what it would REALLY be like to spend even 10 years in that hellhole.

Singapore has shown him some inadvertant compassion I believe.

Still waiting for the answers to my questions redneck..

For all those going on about how the heroin Van Ngyuen was carring was going to kill so many thousand Australians etc, I have done some research.

The lowest figure I have been able to find for annual heroin consumption in Australia is 2.3 tonnes. http://www.druginfo.nsw.gov.au/illicit_drugs/heroin/heroin.pdf

Thats 2300 kilograms, 4600 times the amount Van Ngyuen was carrying.

Assuming the lowest figure, and assuming 400 heroin deaths a year, a death occurs for every 5.75 kilograms of heroin imported. The 500g Van was carrying would statistically have caused approximately 1/11 of a death. One eleventh.

To the rest of the death penalty cheer squad:

Arjay, what are "the certain races that don't perform to our standards of intellectual rigor and economic competance"? Jews? Asians? Nig Nogs (whatever that is, ask the amusingly named Memumza bighor)

Memumza bighor (ha ha), well, what can I say, your posts say it all. You think the killing of a 25 year old man (for something he did when he was 21), the killing of someones son, someones friend, someones brother, is a joke. You're the joke mate, and a sad pathetic racist joke too. I'm glad you're disgusted with your fellow Australians, it makes me proud to be one of them. Hope you stay disgusted.

Hello there hellothere,

I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for answers from Neo-Nazis like Redneck.

Their opinions on this matter and their hatred for people that look different are purely anger-driven and baseless. Sure, they’ll quote a few statistics to prove their radical point. But if you give them statistics that counter-act or prove their argument to be “missing the main point”, they either shut-up or resort to insults (see http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3880#21520).

I still haven’t had a response from Leigh (Redneck’s Klan buddy) on my questions above (see http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3880#21595). Nor has anyone cheering on the execution given me a reason for their respect of a government who executes drug offenders at the same time as dealing with drug lords.

As for Redneck… He hasn’t been able to produce a valid reason for supporting the death penalty when I raised some points questioning its credibility. He fails to see that one of the reasons that multiculturalism produces crime is because of hateful attitudes like his. Which inflame racial tensions, and therefore, crime levels.

But to extend on your points…

People like Arjay base their white-supremacy on the fact that many non-white white countries aren’t as civilised or prosperous as us; totally ignoring other factors such as…

- The Western exploitation of their poorest people;
- Extreme capital punishment helping silence and frighten a country’s people; hindering any hope of the overthrowing of a dictatorship or adopting democracy;
- America’s instating/endorsement of dictators in order to get what they want from the countries (then they whinge when the dictator turns on them);
- America’s funding and arming of militants in these countries;
- Religeous fanatacism.

…and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. But no, they could NEVER accept that white people might have something to do with it - surely!

(Before anyone asks - yes I AM a white caucasian)

memumza bighor,

”If you wanted my respect you'd do your own research instead of following the media trail”

Well, if you wanted my respect then you’d read the previous posts to see that research proving how dumb your arguments are, already exist.

I disagree with death penalty, for reasons different from what several postings would call "leftist bleeding hearts". Knowing the frailty of human judgement, even at the highest level of judiciary cognitive power, I baulk at the thought that we might bring death to someone wrongfully because they did not have good lawyers a la Lasry.

It is no good argument to say this will not happen to you. It does to you/your own (Nguyen is the prototypical “your own” as in Australian).

2.5 million dollars to keep him alive for life? How much would you value your own life if wrongly sentenced? This is the dilemma. Perhaps a penal colony, like old colonial Australia could be set up where the cost is not so high? Islands like Nauru? It would be isolation punishment too where people are separated from family forever (like old colonial Australia). All this tongue in cheek, of course. But what would satisfy everyone?

There have been cases in the US where the evidence was not strong enough, so even death row cases were given commuted sentences Evidence of US Death row commutation reference: see

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051114/news_1n14death.html

Will this kind of injustice happen in Australia?

Given the poor record of justice administration in Australia with regards to Aboriginals, it is patently clear “white” Australians are human too.

http://www.naa.gov.au/Publications/research_guides/guides/rciadic/introduction.htm

In Singapore? Are they human too? They have commuted several death cases in the past!

However, you only have to look at the record in the US to understand the angry position some people take: For example of the O.J. Simpson case see the following websites:

http://www.cnn.com/US/OJ/
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/simpson.htm
http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics4/oj/

The case proves a murderer could “play” the system. Supports our anger that we need to punish such people more.

I rather err on the cautious side and not have the finality of a MANDATORY death penalty. I may reserve judgement on cases where the evidence is clear, being only human. Nevertheless, I would then bring in my faith conviction to bear, that only God can take a life. The faithless can disagree with me. This is democracy.

While a 25 Y.O. man swings the CIA is keeping a watchful eye on the opium fields of Afghanistan.

Murdering a drug mule really keeps the drug trade in its place doesn't it?

Too all you righteous screaming raving lefties with those pious and holier than thou attitudes searching for that comfort blanket of discovering racists under every rock,just face a few realities.

Every race has it's good and bad genes,it is just hat some races have have more than their fair share.To know the difference will make us a more successful society.

The Chinese,Vietnamese,Koreans,Indians and some Europeans are generally intelligent,industrious and civilised.I have no problem with them.

I don't have a problem with the colour of the skin,it is the attitudes and the ability to intergrate with our society.Before you scream racist one more time,just ask the French how they feel.

Intergration isn't as simple as feel good intentions of our common humanity.There is a lot of language and understanding that goes with it.Everyone must have a compentent grasp of English.Ignore it at your folly.

Well put Memumza Bighor (top name BTW),

And I also agree with Arjay on the "ask the French" matter. Most of us have friends from foreign lands and consider ourselves not to be racists but have reservations about letting in people from places that simply have no intention of integrating or adapting our Australian customs.

Integration is a TWO WAY street. If the foreign party in question chooses to come here only for the improved welfare conditions yet has no intention of learning English or seeking out Aussies to make friends with then no amount of liberal philosophy or cries for racial equality will improve the situation. And, unfortunately, we have many immigrants in Australia who have come her for this very reason.

Our system is too simple to rort and they know it. We should wake up to it, make the qualification harder, including English literacy as a requirement, get rid of family reunions as a basis for immigration and be selective about which countries we accept them from. If (e.g.) Lebanese people are statistically not proving to be good candidates, stop letting them in.

You're NOT a racist simply because you don't like the state of social decline our country's in, or the ratio of Middle Easterners in our prison system and CHOOSE to speak out about it. That is what a DEMOCRACY is all about.

And lay off with the labels and name calling - from both sides of the debate.

On Van Nguyen: He took what he considered the 'easy road'. Instead of getting a proper job and making an honest living, renegotiating the loan terms, reducing his expenses, or even reporting his 'creditors' to the police "if" the were intimidating him, he opted to be a Big Man in the Viet circles and take the risk of being a mule.

The acclaim he'd have received if he'd succeeded would've made him a hometown hero, settled his and his brother's debts and no doubt established him more firmly in the Vietnamese heroin trade in the years to come.

It has nothing to do with what Johnny Howard did or did not do, it has everything to do with what Van Nguyen chose to do.

He CHOSE to be a hero,
He CHOSE to take on his brother's debts,
he CHOSE not to find legitimate work to settle those debts,
he CHOSE to seek out an opportunity to become a courier,
he CHOSE to get on the flight and go to Cambodia,
he CHOSE to go through with the deal when he got there,
he CHOSE to strap the bags of heroin to his body
he even CHOSE to continue his mission after reaching Singapore where he had to option to dump the drugs and acknowledge it was too big a risk,
he CHOSE to ignore the risk and attempt to bring the shipment into Australia regardless of the misery and death he would impart in return for his own gain

He was not a young boy who made a "silly mistake", he was completely motivated by personal gain. He was solely responsible for his own well being the minute he decided to take on the mission.

The only ones I pity are his mother and those innocent friends and family. That does not include his dozy brother, he can live with the consequences of what he has done.

did van nguyen ever wonder how his being hanged (a well publicised punishment for trafficking in singapore) would affect his mother? did he ever consider the young lives he may have damaged? we will never know. sadly his mother is now being punished for his crime. the death penalty is silly. life imprisonment is a harsher punishment (think about it!) than death. i don't mean imprisonment in a ritzy australian jail, but imprisonment in an asian jai. what a silly boy! people die! they die of diseases, accidents or herion overdoses. no-one can live forever! my friend's 4 year old died the other day. she didn't get one line's publicity in the paper. all this to do is simply about a legal death sentence. i don't like murder, certainly not legalized murder. (very hypocritical, don't you think?) - perhaps we'll have to put some pressure on countries that have the death sentence.
all that these deaths do is bring misery to the remaining loved ones. is THAT the idea? van was no angel. either is khoa. van knew what he was doing... playing russian roullette. he lost.

deeley

Very sorry to hear about the death of your friend's child. And he/she will only ever get to page 14 or so. Tragic.

Van was a perpetrator of crime, and so was his brother. Their mother was fully aware of her sons' circumstances. I do not pity her. She has allowed the media to make a martyr out of her sons and herself. Pathetic.

A minute's silence for a well known drug runner? The Beattie Government should be ashamed. I will never vote Labor againSo are we to look forward to 2 mins silence when they shoot the Viet drug runners in Vietnam? And nine mins silence when the Bali Nine are shot?

My father and his brothers fought for this country's freedom. A minute's silence is reserved for people who fought for this country and its people - us!

I do not give a stiff sh*t about Van's family. Sure as hell they will get a "New Idea" article out of this!

Thinking of your bereaved family
Kay

hi kay
i think i'm with you. perhaps i didn't make myself clear enough. i'm saying, in effect 'van is dead - others die too - tough' but i sometimes think that death is too good for some. i think there are better ways to punish. sadly, like her or not, kim is a mother, and she will live in regret for the rest of her life. i wonder how khoa will live the rest of HIS life. pretty mixed up i think. (more trouble!) at any rate, i still think that the death penalty is legalised murder.

[Deleted for abusive language]

I am sorry Kal but there are no rules prescribing when and where and whom shold observe or benefit from a minutes contemplation:

I would suggest the minutes silence in the Q'land parliament was primarily to recall the gravity of the circumstance surrounding the death of Mr V N - to contemplate the finality of hanging and think deeply about whether you supported the action or not. VN - not through his action has been elevated to a symbol of the abolitionist movement - why pour your scorn on his family for the action of the zealots rusted to that cause?

So parents whose children die in the commisison of a crime or as a result of a sentence are not to have any compassion extended to them at all?- so their loss has no meaning? - her sorrow is as you put it is pathetic? - please tell me how she could have warded of the media scrum surrounding her sons execution - would a polite please go away worked? - dont think so. Perhaps she orchestrated the entire thing with Harry M Miller in the background.

I have no idea if you have kids or not but in the event one of your hypothetical offspring did something wrong and was incacerated or worse - and some one said they where sorry for the circumstances you found yourself in through the actions of your kid and will suport you where they can - I suppose you would say no! no! spare me your concern I am not worthy! I deserve to mourn in isolation!. Dont think so.

sneekepete

I know I sounded harsh. I guess I have nursed far too many young people with drug induced psychosis. It has torn me apart listening to and watching their despair. I guess I have counselled far too many families bereaved by their child's drug induced, attempted or completed suicide.

Peter Beattie sent an E_Mail which clearly stated that the Minute's Silence was for Nguyen. This E_Mail was read out on 4bc (an extremely reputable radio station in South East Q). He later tried to cover his tracks by saying that the silence was to draw attention to capitol punishment, vis a vis: hanging in this case.

We will have to agree to disagree
Cheers mate
Kay

The ancient Sumerians probably knew the psychological and analgesic effects of opium. As far back as 1680, the physician, Sydenham wrote, ‘among the remedies which it has pleased almighty God to give to man to relieve his suffering, none is so universal and so efficacious as opium’.

Source: http://www.psa.org.au/media/PA~2.DOC

Yes, the papaver somniferum plant is both beautiful in its flowers' appearance as well as the precious juice extracted from the flowers pods. The US-dominated INCB drives aggressive drug prohibition almost worldwide & in Asia its been said that the introduction of death penalties for drugs was linked to foreign aid from the US.

Most drug-related crime is derived directly or indirectly from prohibitionist policies that drive the price up to extraordinary levels, making those of us who use this drug regularly or occasionally pay around $100 for a tiny amount of white or beige powder the size of a thumbnail or often less. I am confident that this ancient wonder drug will not ruin my liver, damage my brain or do any real permanent damage, except in overdose--another risk byproduct of prohibition which means a highly variable and unpredictable quality and potency in the marketplace. However, drinking heavily causes domestic and public violence, antisocial behavior, cancers of the esophagus, stomach and liver. But the alcohol industy is mates with government and commands much hidden leverage at the highest levels of politics.

Some people do not need drug inducement to activate Opioids 1-2-3. : Neurology.
But when a drug that alters the prossess of natural chemicals in the Opioid glands, disassembles its process, and then you have an outbreak of Schizophrenia, in a variety of levels. Eventually. Look at society today and the rate of mental Illness.
Opioid glands are that, it is not a coincidence the name, but the opioid glands respond to natural stimuli, Natures intent, not Man made destructive buzzes as some may call it. They kill you, eventually or at the least, your mind.

Drug use goes a long way further back than that: Try 3000 years and plus, when introduced as the norm, Catastrophic events in history have taken place. One of those catastrophic events is the advent of Leftist Minds that are on parallels with typical psychosis, worst of all, it is genetic. The effects are that bad, and that is what happens when certain chemicals alter the Biological process. That is not meant to insult anyone, that is FACT.
The most recent and well documented is Communism, and Yes: Hitler, the Islam, and his co horsts, normal thinking people can not comprehend that Ideologue, it must be hereditary and a Neurological defect. Thats a Fact.