Ludwig,
I have a 28 year old friend who lived just down the street from me now working to assist asylmn seekers in Austria [not Australia]. There are thousands arriving each day. He assists them with clothing and language training. Obviously they have got the names confused. Most of them are from the African continent so can traverse by land. Australia is fortunate we are surrounded by water, which restricts the economic refugee.

Ludwig

Appreciate your post.

I'm concerned with sustainability too and I agree in an ideal world people wouldn't come knocking on our door. But with over 20 million refugees worldwide and us being part of the global village I don't see how we can put up the barriers indefinitely. Especially since we joined in the bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq. I feel this gives us some sort of obligation to the refugees we helped to create, don't you agree?

If wealthy countries continue to shut the world's problems out, the resentment towards us will only grow and terrorist acts directed our way are likely to increase. As well as being the right thing to do I see helping the world's displaced as a necessary investment in making the world a safer place. We expect third world countries to open their borders to us so we can trade (read exploit) freely and yet we refuse to be open with them. I don't advocate free borders, I think we need controls - not just over the movement of people though but over the movement of goods and capital too. In fairness to genuine refugees I feel they should be given a chance at resettlement if they have risked life and limb to get here which of course they have.

What you're suggesting is that all asylum seekers should head for refugee camps and wait in the queue. Unfortunately there isn't one and it's usually luck or bribery that gets them out of these hell-holes. Refugees can wait in limbo for years and years and many will spend their whole lives in these crowded makeshift camps. I agree it is easier for us to insist they get in the queue but whether it is fair and ethical to condemn them to such misery is debatable.

And I'm not finished yet!

Ludwig - (Continued)

The vast majority of boat people are genuine refugees. Do you think about how many have drowned as a result of the Upstream Disruption Program operated jointly by the Indonesian and Australian Defence Forces? Do you know what happens to the ones that do make it back to Indonesia? Are you happy with the idea that they join Indonesia's 200 million, most of whom are poor and struggling enough as it is without having to play host to people shut out by much wealthier and less crowded countries?

I feel you've succumbed to the scare mongering put out by Howard, Reith, Ruddock et al around Tampa. What evidence do you have to support the assertions you make in No.1? Evidence from their interviews on arrival shows that most asylum seekers had never heard of Australia when they left their homes.

I agree with you that sustainability is crucial. Sustainability to me though is more than a numbers game. It has to include justice. I just don't think that Australia's sustainability can be divorced from the world situation as you are suggesting. I cannot accept the deaths of asylum seekers as an acceptable price to pay in order to suppress Australia's population numbers however desirable that may be as a stand-alone concept.

One last question, if a serious conservationist such as yourself can't vote green, who the hell is there? Have you read Bob Brown's Memo for a Saner World? I feel you've been unfairly harsh to a man who is one of the few truly decent and inspirational politicians Australia has.

No hurry for a response, I will check in from time to time.

Bronwyn - a brilliant post, maybe you could paste it on a few other threads here.

I agree with every point you make.

Yes, we do have to consider sustainability and balance that with population. We cannot afford to make ourselves a target by isolationist policies - we are a part of this world.

I find it perplexing that those who would shut the doors on refugees are frequently proponents of the Global Market.

Bromwyn I can't help but comment on your posts to Ludwig, as I disagree with you :) Fact is, there are 20 million refugees, the worlds population is increasing by 80 million a year, mainly in developing countries. Perhaps its time that every woman on the planet had access to family planning options and abortion choices
in the first tremester, as her human right. Anything else is only
going to increase the problems you speak of. I see that Muslim nations are finally addressing this issue, only the Vatican is staying backward about it.

Fact is Australia can't take them all. Half a million a year streamed into Europe, it didn't change the fundamental problem. They will go where there is opportunity. Yes we could have had a flood.
Terrorism has nothing to do with it, thats a religion problem.

You speak of justice, so do I. The Australian nation needs to decide how many refugees we can take and then apply justice. Poverty is relative. Refugee camps are full of women and children who don't have 2 cents, let alone a relatively large amount of money to pay people smugglers etc. Why should those with the money get preference over those women and children? Thats not a justice at all, thats wearing your heart on your sleeve.

It is better to retain poverty stricken people together and educate and assist them to gradually move out of their situation. By bringing say thousands of poverty stricken people into Australia does not help them - it destroys us. They see our affluence and coveteousness drives them to steal and to thuggish behaviour. When they are together with people of like situation they have some level of respect for each other. Place them in our society and they believe we do not respect them because they are not equal.

I support a charity to refugee children, and I write letters to the children. I can enclose photos of myself and family, but if it shows my house, car, boat etc such is not allowed. Our affluence is beyond their comprehencion, and to transplant them here only makes them more aware of their difference.