I totally agree with the sentiments expressed in this article. Australians from all ethnic and faith communities need to get out of their ghettoes.

Superb article, congratulations.
And if parents were also smart enough to see through the expensive marketing of many private religious schools, they'd then go on to send their kids to public comprehensive state high schools, and watch them outperform the more expensively educated kids from private schools and the more exclusively educated kids from selective schools by the end of their first year of uni.
Yes, yes I know more private/selective kids get in in the first place, hardly surprising when you think they've got all the brightest and richest kids in the first place. The question we should be asking is why such schools with such excellent material actually don't perform better?
Perhaps Dennis has hit on one of the reasons study after study has shown comprehensive public school kids do better at uni than their private/selective school counterparts. They have greater breadth of thinking, they haven't been schooled in a narrow moral and religious context, where almost everyone they go to school with thinks like them, worships like them and comes from the same socio-economic background as them.

apart from private independent religious schools from jewish and christian traditions, some focus also has to be placed on jewish schools. after all, some jewish communities actively agitate on the same middle eastern conflicts as muslims. further, there is some evidence that extremist jews opposed to the withdrawal of israeli troops from gaza are active in australia. some of these groups have extremely hostile attitudes not just to muslims but also to christians and even secular jews.

Agreed in principle, Dennis. But our Government continues to pump funds into private schools at the expense of state education. And in its dealings with the most vulnerable groups in our society (e.g. solo mothers and persons with disabilities to be punished by Workfare changes; low-paid workers and asylum-seekers), it consistently fails to adopt the ethic of 'flourishing' that your idea requires and promotes. Rather, its policies both internationally and nationally foster fear, greed, envy, closed-mindedness and gross consumerism. So, your proposal first requires that we re-fund our withering state education systems, and then pray (to any god you choose) that we re-find some of the values that make an Australian value-system worth sharing.
Cheers,
Anna.

An excellent suggestion. Public school expecations and standards would rise, and hopefully all people would be forced to see that their way is not the only way to live.

I agree that parents should be encouraged to send their children to public primary schools, but I do not believe they should be forced. That would erode the very democratic freedoms you seek to assert.

We must understand, that at the end of the day, parents have the right to raise their children with exposure to whichever religion they so choose, including where they are educated.

Also, I do not believe that selective schools fit into the same category as exclusive religious private schools. I went to a selective school in Melbourne and was there surrounded by so many different ethnicities, races, religious groups, and even socioeconomic backgrounds. My friends did share similar academic objectives, but the (outside) similarities ended there.

I am always a little annoyed when I read sentences like: “Where religion begins to inform everyday values and practices, and leads believers to impose their beliefs on others, there is an unavoidable tension with principles of democratic government.” It is fanciful to say that any religion in a democratic state could “impose” its belief on anyone. If there were enough Christian members of parliament to pass a ban on abortion, would that not just be democracy in process? The suggestion that the religious want to impose their beliefs on others conjures up images of the inquisition and the burning of witches. This is hardly our situation and is a backdoor denigration of those who believe. The much lauded liberal democracy has its own beliefs that are more often than not imposed on all of us. By slight of hand the tenets of liberal democracy, that originally came from Christianity, like the precious nature of each individual human life, have been secularized and cleansed of their origins. To this has been added the idea of human rights, a completely mythical construct from the 17th century that has replaced the biblical understanding of justice.

I have no problems with the cultural arguements in this article.
what I do find problematic is the assumption that only state schooling can provide these opportunities of cultural awareness.
Schools should be owned and controlled by communities rather than by the state. There is a big difference between independent community owned schools, state schools and private (rich schools).
The model for community owned and controlled schools funded by the state has yet to truly emerge.

If schools are community owned will they take responsibility for compulsory education, Rainier? If they do, no problem, but the weird hybrid we have now means some publicly funded schools shoulder that responsibility and others do not. The reasons public schools are currently owned by the State is because to them falls the responsibility of providing a school place for every child of school age. That includes all the most disadvantaged; the poorest, the neglected, the abused, the learning disabled, the intellectually and physically disabled, the ones with the emotional and behavioural problems. The kids that most privately (could that mean community?) owned schools don't want to know about.
Public schools are a source of public good, that means they do something that is of benefit to everyone (i.e. compulsory education for all kids), private schools, by and large, are for private good, that means they do things that primarily benefit those who purchase their services. Which would your community schools be? The former, hopefully.

It is good to see Mr Altman back in print - I aint seen much of his work of late - maybe thats just me.
I dont know however whether such a homogenious approach to schooling is a good idea. And I dont know if we as a community are mature enough to deal with the tensions that might arise. We've put a lot of energy into creating a separatness and we are suffering as a result.

We raised our kids in an area of high ethnic diversity; Anglo kids were the minority. Some parents went to great lengths to bus their kids to other schools with a different mix of children (more white kids) others were grateful that nearby ethnic schools took the heat out of their own play grounds - and many muslim families sent their offspring to catholic schools seeking a less secular appraoch to education and a stricter environment.

All of these movements within the system were done based on real time preconceptions and prejudices. To attempt to reconstitute the present omelette in order to get the perfect egg is a big ask indeed and a huge responsibilty for teachers - and the responsibility will fall squarely on their shoulders - who seem to get blamed for all manner of behavioural ills and shortcomings as it is these days.
Clearly there has to be a more proactive approach to encouraging broader community interaction, familiarity and connectedness. I just dont think schools today are the best places to do it - yet.

Nice sentiments, but it pretty much is a failure before it gets off the ground. In the UK, a vast majority attend government schools yet they have more problems with ghettos than what is occuring in Australia. Furthermore, is there a guarantee that sending a child to a public school will show all cultures equally? or will there be a 'dominant' cultural exchange like there is now. In any case, it smacks of political correctness in the Paul Keating vein.

I went to both a public school and then to a religious private school. Did I attend the latter because I am religious? No. I went to an Anglican school though one parent is Catholic, the other Jewish and I have two Buddhists in my family. I went to this school because of the excellent education it offered to the students in a safe environment and though it was Christian, there were Muslims, and Hindus and Sikhs all who attended because their parents shared the same belief that their child should receive the best possible education.

Public schools do not attract people, they only make private schools look for attractive for even non-religious people. Will sending children to private schools help in "cultural" understanding? Of course it would not.

I believe in integration, but the idea that it would be helped along by sending kids to public schools is like the idea that if Iraq never occured, terrorism would stop in its entirity.

Most definitely the former. Many community (independent schools) unfortunately get thrown into the 'private schools' basket in debates about public versus private.

Equality of access should be at all times be advocated, but this does not mean access is made to curriculum design and teaching approaches.

These remain the sole responsibility of the State and for good reasons to do with accreditation and quality. But in my opinion, this also locks out innovation and community connectivity in crucial areas of teaching and learning and importantly how schools become a part of the community that surrounds them.

Perhaps it’s because they (State Education departments) are so mono-cultural in how they organize their schools? And whose ‘culture’ is this anyway?

In other words it’s not the cultural difference of students but the cultural background of those administering and teaching in state schools that needs to be given critical consideration. Are they really equipped to teach to an increasingly diverse cultural and religious demography of children? Evidence suggests they are not. Know thyself before teaching to difference - one great educator proclaimed.

Altman also suggests some kind of fundamentalism is at play in community or religious owned schools but shows no evidence of this.

From the evidence of research I've read the evidence suggest there is a 'fundamentalism' operating in public school administration that excludes children from different cultural and lower socially economic backgrounds and who come from all ethnicities. (yep, poor white kids grow up to be poor white adults along with their black and brown mates) But according to Altman - "as long as they are culturally and religiously aware" (then we'll all be safe)..Yeah sure. I thought schooling was also a way of preparing our kids for real jobs and careers? Silly me.

Overall, what he argues for is not new or bad, just badly conceptualized and argued.

Once again I find myself agreeing with both sides of the debate.
I've been forced to allow my son to attend a christian school and am apauled at the values taught at the school.
A school uniform that loudly proclaims that he is "nothing without god". The day starting with a bible study where the topic is god punishing people who don't follow him. Not only is my son subjected to this abuse but my child support is paying for it, my taxes are paying for it and your taxes are paying for it. I have no expectation that my son will be taught to think critically where christianity is concerned. Anything I teach him is likely to cause him trouble at the school. I so want him back in a school where he is exposed to teachers from a variety of belief structures and taught to think about what he believes.

On the other hand the government sticking it's nose into yet another decision which currently rests with the family (if your not divorced). How often do they get that kind of stuff right.

R0bert

I've taught in both public & private schools & trust me schools in Australia are a diverse bunch. There's precious few generalisations you can make about any group, public or private. Now a few words to Anna & RObert.

Anna: ethics are taught in some public schools through philosophy. Where it has been provided it's been warmly received by the parents. It teaches the kids to think [not what to think] & provides them with the oportunity to form their own morality.

RObert: Some private schools can be VERY intolerant & bigoted but they aren't all like that. There are more than a few that teach their students to respect other points of view & to think for themselves. I don't know if there are any other schools where you are but if there are try talking to the principle & ask about their philosophy of education. That will give you a pretty fair idea what their priorities are. My best to you & your child & good hunting for another school. :)

Not far behind the idea of getting 'all' kids into public schools is one word "control" and the Left have been running the education unions for quite some time. The emptiness and barrenness I detect in the secular curriculum leaves me gasping for moral air.

They will portray ethical situations, but when challenged 'Why should I be/do like this' .... the eyes glaze over and the 'I don't really know, err we just should' look gradually takes over the countenance.

The types of material selected for English, the values they convey, (specially the atrocious and abysmal moral relativism of works by Albert Camus and others like Sartre reflected in his writings)are most important.
I prefer my kids shaped by the values that are eternal.

Many private schools, endeavor to inculcate specific values with a divine reference point. When young people apply, they are told the rules/presentation/story, and if they come in, they should simply abide with the system or move on.

If state schools were 'just' about education it would be good for all.
But we humans being what we are... its NEVER 'just' about education.

I do agree that all schools, secular or religious must have a core level of material for consistency, acreditation and social harmony.
But 'how' those things are taught, the associated values, can be poles apart between secular/private.

It seems to me that Dennis Altman wants Australia to continue to be a secular society, and his method for ensuring this is to force children to attend state schools where they can’t have religion rammed down their throats.

While his goal of a secular society may be broadly acceptable, I can't see many people supporting a reduction of education choices. Quality private schools keep the government schools on their toes.

I get the feeling that Dennis Altman is most concerned with the perceived division in society created by the Islamic community. Lets face it – Islam is probably the most overt religion in Australia and people are often suspicious of those who dress in a way that screams “look at me, I’m a Muslim”. Media reports don’t help the suspicion that mosques are used to brain wash impressionable people and are terrorist recruitment centres.

There have been policies in the past that tried to ensure the assimilation of society, such as the removing of Aboriginal children from their families and the White Australia Policy. Both were abandoned for very good reasons.

Let’s face it, until people who follow Islam get rid of clowns like Abu Bakr, denounce terrorism, treat women equally, and express their religion less overtly - articles like this one will continue to be written and it won’t be long before support for more extreme measures gain ground. Anyone remember the One Nation Party?

As I have stated previously, what Prof. Altman is arguing for isn’t new or rocket science. What he fails to understand is that cultural and religious differences do matter and children of multiple social, economic and cultural backgrounds are cohabiting in classrooms together. So the more obvious question is ‘how is this being managed in schools’?

Before advocating using public schools as melting pots I think Professor Altman should explain how diversity is currently attended to in schools. Does he know?

He might actually discover they are under funded tin pots full of dead wood ideas and people. From my experience and observations lots of dedicated and wonderful teachers are distracted from doing what they do best by authoritarian administration and the latest batch of bureaucratic desiged teaching strategies and interventions.

I can't help but wonder what the good professor does in his teacher education classes. I hope its not the same old ‘multicultural’ food and clothing analogies linked to those old hat cookie cutter teaching theories and approaches to curriculum.

In this environment everybody (not white, or not the right kind of white) is ‘different and no interrogation whatsoever into the core or central values and this culture of schools themselves. These are just assumed to be inherently good, liberal and egalitarian when often they are far from.

Like Flip Top, I reckon Altman is attempting to sneak in the back door with a bag full old quotes from a 1970's "how to teach to diversity' text book or he’s just simply out of touch with the real world of teaching. Perhaps its a bit of both?

Rainer (did you rx my email ?)

On your point about cultural and religious differences 'do matter' could not agree more.

Lets look at 2 ways of managing that.

Scene 1 in this class we have 7 religions/cultures. The culturally predominant one (Christian) and 6 others represented by a few here and a few there scattered among the class.

METHOD 1. "MULTI-CULTURAL"
The teacher does a crash course in 'all the worlds religions and cultures' and treats each person differently according to their culture. One student is a Lun Bawang from Borneo, so he won't ask him his name. Another is from India, so he wont ever pass something to him with his left (bottom wiping) hand. Another is Muslim, so he will do the 'greeting' prayer gesture of touching his heart, and will use 'Salam Walaikum'. Another is Japanese so he will bow when greeting...another is Chinese, and he doesn't teach about "Que's" (first in best dressed to the Chinese)...and yet anOTHER is...
and after he gets out of intensive care for his nervous breakdown :)......

METHOD 2. MONOCULTURAL Same kids. They are taught (as they have from primary school) that this is 'Australia'.. the idea of Australian identity and its cultural importance has been explained to them as migrants from the first interview, and repeatedly emphasised in every educational level. They fully understand where they live, and are well mannered enough to appreciate that catering for each and every one of the kazillion cultures in the world is a no-goer. They fully realize that this is not an attempt at 'cultural imperialism' but that its 'how it is' by virtue of their parents choice to move here (under our strictly conditional invitation) They respect our ways, and don't seek to oppose them.
The teacher goes home relaxed, focuses on the next step in the curriculum and his self esteem is enhanced, his culture not threatened. The kids ? They go home and their parents enrich their lives with stories of their own background. I see no losers in this :)

Method 3: Cosmopolitan. The teacher recognises that every culture has both good & bad points. If it's a History or Religious Education class then those points can be raised & examined. I've had Aussie kids tell me there are some aspects of ancient Greek culture they'd love to see adopted again. There are others that they are glad is in the dustbin of history. That's the Cosmopolitan way.

Bosk, not much choice for me in the school stakes but that is another thread. I raised the issue to illustrate my concerns with the mix of religious training and general schooling. I guess I let my pain creep in a bit much - sorry about that.

I can see some merit in David's point 2 but would prefer a version which recognises that we have different cultures even within those born here of european origins.

We have a guy at work who insists on ending phone conversations with a "God bless you". Mostly we laugh about it but it also represents a lack of respect for the differing views some of us hold. I wonder what the reaction would be to my routinely ending conversations with a comment which reflected by beliefs about the christian god. Not good I expect. Monoculture is not our reality, what we generally refer to as multiculturalism is just widening the boundaries not bringing a new thing to our society.

The state school suggestion (apart from my concerns about further govt involvement) still has to deal with the tendancy of kids to stick together with kids like them. How do we get kids to interact meaningfully in the school environment?

R0bert

What an arrogant load of toss.

QUOTE: "it does require them to acknowledge that particular religious beliefs not shared by the majority cannot determine their policies."

The majority shove their views down my throat every day of the week. Its hardly likely that any minority is going to determine public policy in a democracy unless the majority concede on the relevant policy point. Of course the minority must acknowledge that the majority will push them around at whim. Just as short timid people must acknowledge that big aggressive people can probably kick their ass in a fight. That does not mean any of us should like the fact. Thats one of the conceited aspects of democracy. The notion that just because the majority can push us around that their might suddenly makes them right.

As an earlier comment suggested primary schools should be owned and operated by the community, not by the government. It is an unfortunate fact of life that too many people can't tell the difference between governments (founded on force) and communities (founded on good will). Something in their mental facilty has malfunctioned

“But diversity becomes another word for social fragmentation when it produces active resistance to the values of the broader society” <== THIS is so spot on !

Robert, I concur about the ‘other cultures’ within those born here of European Origins. That does not exclude a fairly broad based concept of ‘Australian Identity’. I guess thats why I keep harking back to the ‘Judao Christian’ rather than referring to race which is less inclusive. The peck order as I would see it is a broad based Anglo European circle, with the Anglo/Irish/Scottish as the ranking flavor (for historical not racial reasons) which then encompasses the rest.

The places where ‘culture’ is most visible is in rites of passage. Birth, Marraige and Death. I’m afraid I don’t really share the idea that our health proffessionals must know all cultures in regard to death. It puts an unfair strain on them. Rites of passage should be explained to would be migrants so the KNOW what to expect before coming here, and avoid exemplifying my opening quote from the article.

Classic examples are: (With conflicting practices in brackets)

-BIRTH no female genital mutilation. ( Muslim (but not Islamic) practice)

-MARRAIGE no forced marraiges, no honor killings. (Some Asian practice)

-DEATH no ‘unlawful’ methods of burial allowed (shrouds as opposed to coffins, no time pressure on when the dead must be buried.) (Islamic practice)

To give on one cultural point opens the door to the rest , ‘4 wives, cutting off hands’ etc.

Terje, I feel rather saddened over your comment about the ‘majority RAMMING stuff down your throat each day. That type of attitude should be addressed in civics classes to avoid it, and “cultural superiority bullying” should be made an offense. You're not starting it r u ?

They should also target working together in building a better atmosphere, but those who don’t share our predominant cultural heritage should NEVER say “Well thats not ‘MINE’ so get lost” .. my point is it should never be ‘us/them’. Newcomers have to recognize our situation and graciously accept it.
Its called good manners :)

D-B,
I appreciate your intelligent input into forum topics, and on this topic you have expressed clearly the failures within the thinking of those wishing to accommodate multiculturalism in one classroom.

On Public education compare the fallacy by some who assume, [Quote] "Public schools are a source of public good, that means they do something that is of benefit to everyone (i.e. compulsory education for all kids), private schools, by and large, are for private good, that means they do things that primarily benefit those who purchase their services. Which would your community schools be? The former, hopefully." Posted by enaj

It is this a typical emotive view that only Public Schools operate for the public good; that continues the myth that Private Schools act against the best interests of a coherent Australia. My sister trained and taught in the Public School system for years before becoming the Principal of several Christian Schools. Her present school has over 600 students in Primary with a large waiting list of children wanting enrolment. Do we assume these parents are acting against the best interests of Australia and its cultural cohesion?

No! They are exercising their democratic right of choice, which is the basis of Australian culture.

Just wondering - regarding children's education - why anyone would listen to a homosexual activist who believes pederasty (male paedophilia) is among the "safest" of stigmatized forms of gay sexuality, one that "often amounts to no more than acts of mutual masturbation."?
- Dennis Altman, "AIDS in the Mind of America", New York: Doubleday, 1986) p. 144.

Fundamentalism as a concept means going back to fundamentals of one's religion. Their is a huge cavan between the effects of Christian fundamentalism and the effects of other fundamentalisms.

When Muslims take their faith seriously they fly planes into buildings, blow up nightclubs, buses and trains, and rape girls because they "dress like whores".

When Bhuddists take their faith seriously they live in a Monastry, deny themselves and chant.

When Hindus take their faith seriously they ignore the poor and injustices because its their khama.

When Christians take their faith seriously, they obey law, treat people with respect/dignity, help people, build communities and schools.

Maybe Dennis should advocate sending kids only to Christian schools?

FlipTop said: "It seems to me that Dennis Altman wants Australia to continue to be a secular society, and his method for ensuring this is to force children to attend state schools where they can’t have religion rammed down their throats."

You're right about Altman wanting Australia to remain secular society but wrong about him not wanting religion rammed down their throats. Altman want all kids in state schools so the state can control the curriculum, and this means ramming the religion of "Secular Humanism" down kid's throats.

[Deleter for probable defamation].

CHILDCARE staff to teach toddlers about gay families.

A booklet called We're Here, used in 2000 children's centres, encourages staff to use stories, books, posters, games and dolls to actively challenge homophobia.

CHANGING Father's Day to "A Day for Someone Special".
USING the terms Partner A and Partner B on forms instead of Mum and Dad.
TELLING children that "some families don't have dads".
In one suggested role playing scenario, children are introduced to Toby, a doll which has "two mums, June and Alice".

The booklet is condemned by the Australian Family Association and the State Opposition as an assault on parents' rights.

The We're Here booklet was funded by a community grants scheme. It is distributed by FKA Children's Services, which is funded by the State and Federal Governments.
More than 2000 copies of the booklet have been distributed around Victoria in the past year. BM of AFA said, "the material was taxpayer funded propaganda designed to brainwash children. The idea that same sex couples are on par with a mum and dad family is a real assault on children."

Opposition education spokesman Victor Perton said it was the role of parents rather than childcare workers to raise such issues.
"It's madness for childcare workers to actually be promoting these models given that most parents would be unaware they are in circulation," he said.

FKA Children's Services assistant director Melinda Chapman confirmed the booklet was used to promote awareness of homosexual issues.

Judy Radich, president of the Australian Early Childhood Association, said many childcare workers talked to children about gay families.
"We've all got a responsibility to expose children to the diversity of the world we live in," she said. But she said it was important for parents to be aware of what was being discussed.

University of Western Sydney academic Kerry Robinson has called for young children to actively confront gay issues. Writing in the Australian Journal of Early Childhood, she suggests Barbie dolls and fairy tales should be changed to include gay characters.
Public Education!

Yeah let's give more kids a public schooling experience like mine! Poor/inexperienced teachers, kids who could not read, violence in the classroom, filthy toilets, disgusting classrooms. No learning of any note took place there. The only reason I can read is that my parents taught me how before I got to that dreadful place.

QUOTE: "Terje, I feel rather saddened over your comment about the ‘majority RAMMING stuff down your throat each day. That type of attitude should be addressed in civics classes to avoid it, and “cultural superiority bullying” should be made an offense. You're not starting it r u ?"

No I am not starting it. When I want to cut down a tree in my garden and the majority say "no way" I don't regard myself as the protagonist. When I work hard to make a living and the majority decide they know best how to spend a large slab of my income I don't regard myself as the protagonist. If I decide to smoke dope and the majority lock up my supplier I don't regard myself as the protagonist. The majority sees fit to impose itself through laws all over the place. The majority does not believe in the notion of "live and let live". It prefers "do as we say".

I am not in favour of bullying. However some cultures are in my view superior. I would rather live in a culture with a strong work ethic, where people displayed a high level of respect for other peoples time, money, property and personal lifestyle choices. And where communal needs were dealt with through good will and cooperation rather than the heavy hand of the state.

The idea of secular schools is fine by me. But not state run and certainly not as the compulsory monopoly

Let's have a look at a private school & how they handled homosexuality. After several years of learning how sinful & wicked being a homosexual was in a "christian" school one grade found a gay kid in their clasroom. He was regularly beaten up, in the presence of teachers. Picked on by the teachers themselves & suffered almost continuous prejudice. The kid eventually hung himself. The schools response We didn't know it was going on! Rubbish!! They didn't care.
The fact is ignorance & fear of homosexuality is fairly common & needs to be addressed. & that is the job of educators, like it or not. Homosexuals need to learn that it's ok to be this way. Heterosexuals need to learn that homosexuals are not automatically child molesting fieds after their kids. They have the same dreams & hopes & fears as anyone. How can that be? Because their just human beings. So let's educate the prejudice & fear out of kids. I don't call that brainwashing I call that enlightened education.

QUOTE FROM ARTICLE: "Liberal democracy rests on certain agreed values that recognise that individuals deserve equal treatment in all areas of social life. This does not exclude committed believers from active participation in political life, but it does require them to acknowledge that particular religious beliefs not shared by the majority cannot determine their policies."

RESPONSE:-

Australia is not a Liberal Democracy. It is a Social Democracy. Oh how I wish it was a Liberal Democracy. However with statists in large numbers wanting all kids in state run education, Australia will no doubt remain a Social Democracy

I see that the homophobes and religious nutters are in full flight on this thread.

A few obvious corrections:

1. Female genital mutilation is an abhorrent practice that has nothing to do with Islam and is carried out in societies that claim to be Muslim and Christian alike. It doesn't occur at birth, rather when girls approach puberty. Little do with religion and everything to do with patriarchy.

2. Arranged marriages and honour killings are common among various societies in and around the Mediterranean - again, both 'Christian' and 'Muslim'. Nothing to do with religion and everything to do with patriarchy.

3. Who cares of it's a shroud or a coffin? It's just a lump of dead meat and should be hygienically combusted.

4. What has Dennis Altman's sexuality got to do with his opinions about public education, except in the tiny minds of some loopy fundamentalist Xians?

Personally, I think that parents should be able to send their kids to whichever schools they like, but that only public schools should receive any form of support from government revenue. My own kids have been entirely educated within the public system in excellent schools across several states. My eldest daughter topped the state in one HSC subject, while my other kids attend excellent and very multicultural primary and high schools in Brisbane.

All three of them respect individual people inherently, and experience interaction with kids from other cultures on a daily basis. I wish my education had been more like theirs.

Finally some reason has entered the debate. Thank you Garra.

I don't have children but if I did I would certainly want freedom of choice as to where to send them. The ideal school would have a diverse curriculum and a diverse community of attendees. Most public schools embody this. And, I believe, public schools are in the best position to achieve a broad, well rounded education not restricted to a narrow perspective which is a problem with many private schools.

Therefore, government funding should be for to public schools only. If you want to go private - then you pay. I am sure that there are very good private schools but I resent them being funded with my hard earned dollars which I prefer go into public education sector.

Dennis Altman is a highly intelligent compassionate man and I always look forward to reading his erudite articles. Sexuality has no bearing on intelligence, compassion, tolerance, empathy and understanding.

To Garra & Xena
I could not agree more. In fact there is an old argument about private schools. it goes like this "if you accept public funding you accept public control along with it." In other words if private schools need public funds then they become public schools. To be fair though government funding wasn't originally extended to win the Christian vote. it was done because if private schools closed there would be an influx of kids into the public schools that the public school system just couldn't cope with.
By the way to anyone concerned homosexual does not equal pedophile. How could it? Many of the children molested are female. Are we to believe that male homosexuals can suddenly fancy females, but only if their kids? That is more than a little unbelievable.

Garra
your 'corrections' were uneccessary, I pointed out that the female genital mutilation was NOT Islamic .. . It is not related to 'birth'.. agreed. Not the point I was making. I'm alluding to 'rites of passage' in the wider cultural sense. They would normally be harmless and tolerable EXCEPT where they go against our law.

Altmans sexuality has EVERYTHING to do with his input on education with his views on man boy love which, as an opinion leader/shaper in the field of education are VERY relevant to shaping of education policy.
Did you miss that bit ? or are you sympathetic to such a view about men and boys.?
Moral relativism... it stinks because THAT is where it leads. The continual 'little bit by little bit' which taken together constitute a HUGE change over time, and it's people like you who defend the 'small' changes, while they should know full well that its all a 'direction'.

Well, blind nellie we are not, and we will fight such attitudes and the defending of the morally putrid and indefensible on every level.

Do you guys notice the process going on here ? I'll spell it out:

1/ Altman states in a publication "Men having sex with boys is the least dangerous of the stigmatized ..."
2/ You guys come along and TOTALLY IGNORE that, and say "He is a caring compassionate man"

Which is EXACTLY the prophetic call we have been making for ages, and is the foundation of our opposition to the gay lobby also, same reason.

If you ever call us 'homophobes' 'religious nutters' ? thats pretty close to vilification u know... (u 4got 'racist and intolerant') just watch out, or you might be called a NAMBLA_LOVER. So, how about we play the issue and not the man. Did you all notice Aslan gave CHAPTER AND VERSE of Altmans view on man boy love ? It was Page 144 !

Religious schools have not been free of homosexuals molesting boys at the school; and it these types we must eradicate from the classroom. That is one primary reason why known homosexuals should not teach children. But who cares in Public Education?

Two four year old boys are heard talking outside the kindergarten about where babies come from. One said, "I came from my mothers tummy". The other said, "I havent got a mummy just my two dads, and I'm not sure who I came from or how I escaped". Cabbage Patch reality.

BD - re aslan - he is always negative about homosexuals, therefore I am sceptical about anything he posts regarding gays. As for mutual masturbation - you don't have to be gay for that - I have three brothers all straight (whatever that means) and I know more about male sexuality than I really would like.

I do not approve of pedophilia per se - to imply that I do because I find Altman caring and compassionate is offensive in the extreme.

If you have a problem with an extensive, diverse and broad education system purely because of someone's sexuality - well then you do indeed have a problem!

I do not understand your superstitious beliefs BD - when you start with your quotes I just don't read your post. Thankfully you are not one of the editors of this forum - I can imagine how little diversity of opinion would occur then.

You don't like being called a religious nutter? Then ease off on the bible bashing. I know that you can write erudite and reasonable posts sometimes.

But...

You don't reach
When you start to
Preach.

Cheers

BOAZ goes northern most point in the Holy Thread "Dan"... (nothing).. then south to the post of Aqaba (nothing)... then east to Jericho,(nothing) and then west to Joppa.. and the 'preaching' I found not :)

Dear Xena, I assume you are referring to a DIFFerent thread, the one where I posted 'Who's side is God on' ?...
and of course, I 'lost' you there. Surprising, if anything, what I posted from the prophet Amos supported all you stand for. (on the surface).

But one thing I should point out. While I mention your name in prayerful intercession with the Almighty, my 'preaching' posts as you put it, are not their for the exclusive purpose of annoying you :) I'm sure this must come as a shock, but you will recover.

Hey.. the suggestion that 'erudite' posts are ONLY those which make no reference to God, sounds jussssst a tad...... you know ?

In regard to this actual topic/thread, I can only assume that if you were the honorable member in charge of Ed, you would extinguish any and all reference to God or abiding moral value. Well, be that or not, as it may, it's as much about democracy as anything else.

If you give me the 'religious nutter' stuff, I'll have to think up a name for you :) aah.. I've got it already .. "precious human being, who is uniquely valuable" there ! take that :)

Um Philo
you said in your last post that independent schools have been free of homosexuals molesting boys. Trouble is there already are homosexuals in private schools. But wait. If there are homosexual males in private schools & they're NOT molesting kids doesn't that mean that only SOME homosexuals molest children? So why don't we ban those few & leave the rest ALONE?

It is an undeniable fact that some homosexuals molest children but the vast majority do not! It is also an undeniable fact that some heterosexuals molest children. Are we to ban all heterosexuals from teaching kids on the same grounds. As we MUST if we are to be consistent. Or are you prepared to argue that only some heterosexuals molest kids ? Abolutely correct. But the same is true of homosexuals.

My second point is this. Your argument seems to be, correct me if I'm wrong, some homosexuals molest boys therefore all homosexuals should be banned from teaching. Let's try that argument in another context. Some women molest girls therefore all women should be banned from teaching [this argument is obviously pure bigotry]. Some Jews & Negroes moles children therefore all Jews & Negroes should be banned from teaching [again just another example of pure bigotry].
But then why is it acceptable to say some homosexuals molest children therefore all homosexuals should be banned from teaching? Isn't this a case of pure bigotry too? Please enlighten me.

Bosk... here is how it works:

Its 1965, the gay lobby becomes politicized and invents a word "Homophobia" they then 'define' this as something "evil" and convince key people that we must 'purge' this evil from among us.

They use 'soothing' and 'comfortable' words, spoken by 'articulate' people.. and gradually the barriers come down.

Its now 2000, and the Homosexual agenda is largely fulfilled in terms of social acceptability, save marraige and some other legal issues.

2001 People with some insight predict, that 'As it was for the homosexual agenda, it will also be for the Paedophile agenda, and we have NAMBLA"

2005 A noticable number of psychologists, (and academics, like Altman) are now poopooing the idea that most homosexuals like 'young stuff', speaking 'soothing words' yet laying the foundation for the the acceptance of such ideas .. 'bit by bit'
"Man boy sexual encounters are one of the safest types of stigmatized gay sex" says Altman (if Aslan reported accurately)

And he is but one of many, and the degree to which these groups appeal to the 'safe, comfortable, reasonable... 'don't pick on us look at such and such cultural icon who was 'into' this' etc etc etc.....is appalling.

2010 Man boy sex is quite acceptable, as is its female equivalent.

Bosky, I don't know what age you are, but observant people have been watching this 'blow by blow' destruction of our morality for quite a number of years, and could probably give chapter and verse for most of what went on.

and "make-it-up-as-u-go" morality takes another great stride into social oblivion.

We are neither stupid, ignorant or hiding behind the bushes when brains were given out. Nor will we ever be intimidated by such pathetic terms as 'homophobe' or 'racist' or 'intolerant' (add hysterical also, for Garra's sake :)

2015 Liberal social thinkers campaign for cross species marraige and legal status for 'animal companions'

2020... we die out.

Dear BD
Thanks for the update. A few corrections. 1. Homophobia is NOT a term invented by any lobby it is a recognised psychiatric disorder. The morbid fear that one is a homosexual. This fear is so great that people are ready to kill to prevent anyone from believeing it. 2. The gay community is made up of numerous people whose political views range from communist to nazi & every shade in between. That they would all share one hidden agenda would be news to them. 3. I learned long ago the more people who know a secret the sooner it is leaked. The idea that millions of homosexuals could all keep this cover-up not for hours or days but decades is more than a little unbelievable. Finally the idea that gays have equal rights under the law would be welcome news to most gay men who a) have children taken off them because their homosexuals, b) who have no automatic inheritance rights, c) who cannot automatically visit their partner in a hospital ward. I could go on & on.
As far as the claim that homosexual = child molester name one peer reviewed medical or psychiatric journal that supports you & I'll gladly rethink. Otherwise please answer me this. What would you accept as evidence that your views are false?

Bosk,

The case of homosexual student who killed himself because he was persecuted is obviously not the sort of behaviour we endorse. However, I can cite several cases of boys who have killed themselves because they were molested by homosexual teachers or boyscout leaders, and another gay teenager who killed himself after an ‘affair’ with a university lecturer.

Garra,

I see your hurling abuse at those you disagree with again. Try not to kicked off again. And try to tell the truth as well…

Christian communities have never practiced female circumcision. Name one. Christian communities, along with many others, have practiced arranged marriages, but have never endorsed honor killings.

When Altman speaks on public education and seeks to influence school curricula his views on pederasty have everything to do with it. Would you let a pedophile work in a childcare centre?

You said: “only public schools should receive any form of support from government revenue.”

The church-run school my son attends is a public school (it is open to members of the public) so I’m glad to hear you think they should receive govt funding.

Remember that govt gets its money from tax-payers – and more and more tax-payers are sending their kids to independent/church public schools. Any govt that stop funding independent public schools will quickly find themselves out of govt.

BTW, I work with a hard left atheist anti-Christian who disagrees with me on just about everything. Yet, he sends his kid to a church school! His son used to attend a public school but wasn’t learning anything and was always in trouble. Since he began attending the church school he has improved by an order of magnitude - both behaviourally and academically.

Xena,

No I’m not negative about homosexuals. They, like everyone, are valuable human beings. What I object to is _homosexuality_, and it pains me to see valuable human beings caught up in self-destructive lifestyle that can only in pain, suffering, misery and an early death. It has happened to two friends already.

Bosk,

I object to homosexuals teaching in schools not because they may be pediphiles but because I question the personal hygiene and psychological stability of men who gain sexual pleasure from licking another's anus, from urinating and defacating on each other, from inserting their arms/brooms/lightbulbs/vegetables etc into their partner's rectums and intestines and from engaging in "felchures" which is too sickening to explain.

I don't know whether "homophobia" is a "recognised psychiatric disorder" but the following gay publication explicitly states that "Homophobia itself is not a named disorder".
http://www.sriconnection.net/files/community_homophobia_hazard.php

In any case, "homophobe" is a name that is automatically assigned to anyone who objects to homosexuality. Let me assure you my objection to homosexuality is quite rational, I do not engage in or endorse gay bashing and I do not fear ANY homosexual. I should add that homosexual domestic violence (gays bashing each other) is 3rd biggest cause of death for homosexuals after AIDS and drug overdoses.

I don't think anyone said all homosexuals are pedophiles. The issue is that although homosexuals make up <3% of population, they account for 25-40% of pedophiles. I have dozens of refs to prove this but dont have room to include them now.

You said: "[homosexuals] political views range from communist to nazi & every shade in between."

That doesn't include much. NAZIs like Communists are totalitarian socialists (NAZI party formal name = National Socialist German Workers Party), and was inspired by, and started by, a small group of homosexuals. The party's first meetings were held in a gay bar, the Bratwurstgloeckl, in Munich.

German equivalent of the Boy Scouts, Wandervoegel, was started in late 1800s by group of homosexual teenagers. First adult leader, Karl Fischer, called himself “der Fuehrer”. Hans Blueher, a homosexual Nazi philosopher and important early member of the Wandervoegel, published in 1912 "The German Wandervoegel Movement as an Erotic Phenomenon", explaining how the movement had become one where young boys could be introduced into the homosexual lifestyle. Wandervoegel and other youth organizations later merged into the Hitler Youth, which itself became known as the “Homo Youth” because of rampant homosexuality.

I wasn't going to respond to Aslan's 'flame', but his subsequent outrageous post has prompted me to recommend it for deletion.

Since I'm posting, Aslan's claims about female circumcision being absent in 'Christian' communities is demonstrably false. Off the top of my head I can think of the Maasai and the Turkana as cultures that still practise female circumcision yet claim to be 'Christian', having had missionaries inflicted on them since the 19th century.

The point is that it's a sub-Saharan cultural rather than Muslim religious practice - in much the same way that 'honour killing' and arranged marriages are endemic to Mediterranean cultures and are not derived from religious beliefs per se.

I don't understand why the fundamentalist Christians on this site need to resort to falsehoods and distortions of reality to practise their faith.

Aslan

>>No I’m not negative about homosexuals. They, like everyone, are valuable human beings. What I object to is _homosexuality_, and it pains me to see valuable human beings caught up in self-destructive lifestyle that can only in pain, suffering, misery and an early death. It has happened to two friends already.<<

Two friends - friends - I doubt that they felt like friends if you subjected them to the anti-homosexual rant you engage upon on these forums.

For the record I am happy, pain-free, confident and healthy and unashamedly bi-sexual. Dream on fellas.

Back on topic.

BD

I made a poor attempt at humour - I was simply refering to the many posts (not exclusively yours - although you are the most prolific) which contain excerpts from the bible. To an non-superstitious person continual quotes from this book appear as bible-bashing. Why is this response on topic? Because, even though I am an atheist I believe that religion (reflecting the community) can be taught in schools with voluntary participation and NOT restricted to christianity.

Why?

I had to attend religious instruction at the school I attended - hence I was able to form a fully informed lack of belief.

"Missionaries 'inflicted' on them"
bless you Garra :) I so love that one.

Ode to Freddy Mercury. Singapore 23/3/2001

Hey big guy, man ur really tough,
U took life by the handle, and strutted all your stuff
U belted out the music, and let us know you’re here
U told us over and over, that u had no fear

More Lovers than Madonna, wasn’t that you’re earthly anthem ?
Boys and girls alike, u always had to have them
U chewed life up, and spat it out, u did it all ‘your way”
But when the final song is done, doesn’t our Maker have the say ?

How curious my reflection, as I consider you’re intention
The course you chose, you’re colorful life, not without sensation
Nevertheless the irony is –the songs you sang for a crust
Became your own epitath.. “another one bites the dust”

Im not a one to point the bone, nor the accusing finger
In such a case, there’s nothing else, but a guilt that will linger
You might have had a speck, in the corner of your eye
But the one who has the plank, …………is I.

Although that plank is long, and often blinds my way
The experience of grace, is something I should say
It means there IS an answer, to the emptiness within
And when our heart is open, new life can then begin.

Bosk,
I suggest you read my post again rather than post your impressions of what I had said. An important word * is missing - "NOT".
Quote,"Um Philo you said in your last post that independent schools have * been free of homosexuals molesting boys."

In research done in SA it was found that molestation of boys by homosexuals comprising 2 - 3 % of the population were 26 times more likely to molest boys than any other group. This study was done within religious schools / youth groups / Church. There is a predisposed attitude of this group toward fresh young beautiful boys (to use their term). Naive, spiritual young boys who admire adult males are vunerable to their priming and petting.

Australia: Islamic Schools

Schools face scrutiny on doctrine

The Age, Russell Skelton, August 7, 2005

"Independent schools - including Victoria's seven Islamic colleges - will be required to teach a curriculum consistent with Australian democratic values under State Government reforms. The Government, which is to establish a new regulatory authority, has warned it will crack down on non-government schools where there is inappropriate teaching or antisocial behaviour. Acting Education Minister Jacinta Allan told The Sunday Age: "All schools in Victoria must conform with all Victorian and Australian laws relating to equal opportunity and racial vilification...."

At; http://www.theage.com.au/news/war-on-terror/schools-face-scrutiny-on-doctrine/2005/08/06/1123125945560.html

Parents concerned over college imams

The Age, Russell Skelton, August 7, 2005

"Parents of children at Werribee Islamic College have been concerned for some time about the poor quality of teaching by visiting imams and have made their concerns known to the management, The Sunday Age believes. Parents are also said to be opposed to the decision to set up a school in Jakarta, believing the money should be used to improve the school and raise teaching standards. Werribee Islamic College is believed to receive more than $6 million from the state and federal governments and raises $2 million from fees, believed to be about $2000 a year per child...."

At: http://www.theage.com.au/news/war-on-terror/parents-concerned-over-college-imams/2005/08/06/1123125945261.htm

Philo
I stand corrected concerning your original statement. My apologies. However the study you quote is irrelevant unless it has been done by written up in an accredited, peer reviewed journal. I know of MANY reviews of such a nature. The thing that links them is 1) the writers have an agenda to push [i.e. that homosexuality is evil or disordered]. I can do a report that finds that Christians are 100 times more likely to abuse children. Such a report would be so prejudiced as to be worthless & it's methodology would be extrmely questionable but it would be there & just as valuable as your report. 2) That such reports are NEVER published in peer reviewed journals where their methodology would receive critical scrutiny. That's not their purpose which is NOT to convince professionals of this views validity but true believers such as yourself.
The FACT is that GIRLS comprise the majority of sexual abuse victims. This is shown not only in peer reviewed journals but also in thousands of police reports. Since girls would be abused by heterosexuals it then follows that the majority of abusers are heterosexuals.
Now if your study were correct then this would not be so. They would comprise only 3-4% of abuse cases. I think I prefer to believe reality over any report Philo.
Summary: 1) your report is from a group with it's own agenda. 2) your report does not appear in an accedited peer reviewed journal. 3) your report does NOT agree with reality. Finally please NOTE: what would you accept as evidence that you are wrong in your views concerning homosexuals? you have NEVER stated the grounds on which you would consider your beliefs falsified. I can only conclude from this that there are NO grounds. In other words your opinions concerning homosexuals are NOT based on any amount of evidence but pure belief. ie. you believe because you believe & that's all.

To Philo & BD
You might be interested in this quote from a peer reviewed publication Philo. Please note the last sentence.
'from 'Adult Sexual Orientation and Attraction to
Underage Person', Archives of Sexual Behavior, 1978,
Vol. 7(3), by Nicolas Groth and H. Jean Birnbaum:
"... in over 12 years of clinical experience working
with child molesters, we have yet to see any example
of a regression from an adult homosexual
orientation. The child offender who is also
attracted to and engaged in adult sexual
relationships is heterosexual. It appears,
therefore, that the adult heterosexual male
constitutes a greater sexual risk to underage
children than does the adult homosexual male.'

Bosky.. the key words are more accurately :

we have yet to see any example
of a regression from an adult homosexual
orientation.

Emphasis on 'we have yet to see'.... which could mean anything.

The issue I take with Altman is his position on 'man boy sex' as being 'stigmatized' and 'least dangerous' .. and if correctly reported by Aslan, constitutes an 'attitude' to such activities which may indeed influence his perception of risk or danger of certain teaching materials, or even to promote them because he see's them as 'socially benign'.

That is my issue with him, and the idea of getting all the kids into state (left controlled/flavored) primary schools.

Bosk,
On mere statistical record of the number of incidence of sexual abuse of children it is more likely that adult heterosexual males will abuse female children. Simply because each group make up about about 50% of the population.

Homosexuals make up only 3% of the population. However in male child sexual abuse the act is primarily homosexual behaviour and not heterosexual acts. This behaviour is practised by less than 3% of the male population and on the record of insidence showed that each of these persons had a higher number of insidence of abuse. This SA study reported the frequently of incidence of molestation of boys by the 3% male engaging in homosexual acts was 26 times more likely to occurr. No school can afford a place for a child molester.

Philo
Need I point out that your research paper is NOT peer reviewed & that all research papers that are NOT peer reviewed are worthless. From your last post I get the idea that all the researchers have done is count the number of victims, done a quick estimate of the homosexuals in the religious schools & made a direct corelation. I hope you realise that is pretty lousy methodology for several reasons. a) how did they define homosexual? Did their definition of homosexuals merely include someone who slept with other men? if that's so then that includes all bisexuals as well. Something that would inevitably push up their figures. b) you do realise that many child molesters molest large numbers of victims. The idea that you can just compare the number of victims with the number of homosexuals in a given group & get any sort of pertinent information is rediculous. A peer reviewed journal would catch out such lousy methodology which is why such articles will NEVER appear in peer reviewed publications. They are for propaganda purposes only.
Not only this but a test was done two years ago in which large numbers of homosexual & heterosexual men were tested for arousal when viewing pictures of naked children. The vast majority of both groups registered no physical or emotional stimulation when viewing such material. That's about as conclusive as you can get but My bet is it will not budge you one inch.
Face it Philo the facts are against you. your oposition to homosexuals is based on a personal emotional reaction, not the evidence. Such an emotional reaction, to quote Ronald Dworkin "we tend to describe - in lay terms - as a phobia or obsession."
Since your reaction to homosexuals is purely emotional & emotions cannot be reasoned with then I see little point in continuing this discussion. I'm not trying to offend you & if I have I appologise but I really do see little point in continuing. Everyone I wish you well. Take care

Bosk,
Are you revealing your defence of a group of sexually disoriented males who perform anal sex on other males? The fact is the act of homosexuality is a male performing sex acts on another male or by having anal sex. Many in this group prefer different partners and especially boys. Are we discussing a perverted act performed by adults on boys that is to be eradicated from schools, or are you defending a group that did not have secure emotional role bonding in infancy?

To the uneducated person who seems to know NOTHING about pedophilia:

According to Finkelhor et al. (1989), women's sexual abuse of the children was more serious than men's abuse of children. Because they were likely to have sexually abused more children and for a longer time, they were more likely to fit the DSM-III-R requirement that pedophilia be a recurrent pattern over 6 months. Their sexually abusive actions consisted of a single case 8% of the time, compared with 33% of the cases involving male perpetrators. Both men and women were more likely to sexually abuse girls than boys. Women were more likely to sexually abuse younger children. They were more likely to commit multiple acts of sexual abuse and to use force and threats. Some of the sexual abuse by both women and men seemed to be opportunistic and more general and diffuse in motivation--a key factor being the availability and vulnerability of children rather than a particular sexual attraction or recurrent persistent urge, as pedophilia is defined in DSM-III-R

Philo give it up your not being rational at all. Our fundamentalist religious folks are seeking to subvert our tolerant, secular agenda and hijack the rules and government and public services to fit their own moral worldview.

You're also on the record here as a Barnaby supporter.

If I was 14,15 or over right now, attendance at a public school would ensure that I could safely attend in my gender of identification, without being treated detrimentally by the staff, under a legal framework that says I would have a right to an education no matter my lifestyle. If a uniform was expected to be worn, I could use the uniform garments consistent with my gender of identification.

Would a private school offer that, and what questions would be asked about which amenities I seek to use---though for years the answer to that one has been obvious to me anyway school administrators in a private school might take exception to what is obviously appropriate in the circumstances.

Public schools are absolutely critical because they offer an educational environment which any student of any faith, non-religion, lifestyle, culture etc can attend and get an education, supposedly crucial to assist in participation in the social, cultural and economic life of our society.

A particularly interesting article especially when I am a teacher in a Catholic College in a cohort or year 11 & 12s. We have a relatively large ESL group from various parts of Africa which simply do not, have not, don’t appear to be given the opportunity, to assimilate with mainstream students. Although I have broached the subject with other teachers nothing seems to be in place to assist, encourage, cajole, our entire student population to assimilate. Is this a product of the culture of the college or is this simply about difference? What I also find interesting are the ‘other’ kids who seek what I can only interpret as comfort/solace within our ESL closeted environment. These are the kids who for whatever reason don't 'fit-in' with the mainstream kids either. These kids congregate as one in one of the only classrooms which is open during recess and lunch breaks while mainstream kids frolic around our expanse of indoor and outdoor areas. Although I have on a number of occasions ventured in to the ESL area to encourage these kids to come outside and join in with one thing or another, my success has been limited. Every time I walk past this particular area I am at great pains to understand how an all embracing, supportive and caring setting such as a Catholic College can allow this situation to continue.

Marty Hoare,
You are the educator - educate. You see the problem and are there deal with it. This is your opportunity. He who recognises there is a problem and wishes change has the power to make that change because he is aware of a different position. You have the answer.