Enforced multiculturalism has failed in Australia,leaving us with disparate tribes. We will never know what the reuslt would have been had we been allowed to discuss it, and reasoned voices from all cultural backgrounds had been heard.

Now, we have been forced one dangerous step further with large numbers (relative to the host population)of people whose religion - Islam - appears inseparable from their culture and dominates their entire lives, including their attitudes to democracy and an inability to tolerate our Western way of life. It has to be said: Islam in not compatible with Western culture. I do no say that Islam is bad, wrong or weird. Nor do I say, as an Anglo/Saxon/Celtic Australian that our way is the best. But, I do say that the two do not mix. This cruel attempt at social engineering is as harmful to Muslims as it is to the host population, and I am baffled that Muslims ever thought that they could be happy living in Western society.

Well said DAvid and also to Leigh.. !

David said:

In this extreme form, multiculturalism recognises the special rights of cultural communities, separating them and giving them a special role, financial benefits and other advantages in the nation’s affairs. This even extends to the toleration of exceptions from the law or of a different treatment under the law.

Exactly ! which is what we must avoid like the plague. To pander to each and every culture rather than they pandering to the predominant one, is not only ludicrous it is insulting and racist.

That Emergency services people have to keep in mind 'special' procedures for dealing with Muslims, implies they have to take special procedures for EVERY religious or cultural group and that, is downright STUPID not to mention impractical. Imagine, they have to first check on the 'ethnicity/religion of the people bleeding to death on the sidewalk to ensure 'culturally compatable service'. God forbid they encounter a mixed marraige.

When I read that a Magistrate in Sydney dismissed a case against some Muslim families 'not carrying out the search in a way compatable with the Muslim inhabitants,where Kg of top heroin was found, where even the children spat on and abused the police, for , my blood boiled and continues to boil.

see this

http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581

My feeling is to round up Viet Vets, RSL, Rotary, Lions, and have a 1000 man peaceful march from one end of Telopea St Punchbowl to the other, and stand in silence outside the home of those the police know about.

When we wake up and demand of our government that it make 'compliance, compatability and committment' to the prevailing culture a condition of entry and citizenship, with conditional review periods, the happier we will all be. This is not to say that they throw out their culture, but anything which might CONFLICT with the prevailing, must GO ! Full Stop ! Either it goes, or the people don't. (come)

Migrants who come here know they have never had it so good, lets keep it that way.

It must be the equivalent of a neo-con full moon? Right (bat) wing vampires are flapping madly about looking anything that appears to be remotely multicultural to sink their fangs into.

David Flint and John Stone have obviously seen recent world events as a cue to line with their ol' faithful chants about non white immigration again. But beware, they've been careful not make their bigotries sound too acerbic and fanatical.

Eloquently demonstrating their prowess to articulate their views through a new kind racism, a racism that avoids the language of biological determinism, Instead they adopt a wishy-washy form of cultural determinism (and a select cultural history.

Flint does not provide one bit of evidence of any ethnic or racial group that does not “embrace the language, the core values and the institutions of the nation, particularly the rule of law, representative democracy, equality and freedom of speech”.

Why not? Well, he knows that the dog whistle still works well and he can leave it up to ‘real Australians’ to decide who these people are. My bet is for the Muslims right at this moment in time. But in time is will move on to other convenient social and cultural scape goats.

I could go one but won't. I find their frenzied excitement more interesting than anything they have to say. It won’t be long before he and his brethren connect multiculturalism with terrorism, chicken flu, and of course, the war in Iraq. If only they knew how predictably boring its become

David Flint, great article. I have long been suspicious of the term 'multicultural', and what it really means. Multi Culti does'nt really stand for anything, except some naive idea that if we mix the world peoples there will be no more wars in the future. If the world's people were homogenised into a faceless mass, as our elite would like, wars would still be fought over religion and politics. Good bye multi culti!

Excellent points Professor Flint!

This insidious plague must not just end, it must be reversed, and soon.

Leigh's comments were good, although Islam is bad. As one who has carefully looked into it, I am sick and tired of hearing things in leftwing papers (letters section) about how Mohammad & Jesus preached tolerance. Jesus yes. Mohammad was a man who massacred civilians, took slave girls, took profit from caravan robberies, ordered assassintations, had visions by God telling him to marry friends wives, and daughters, one who was only six! So, no, Islam is wrong.

I'm at the link now David_BOAZ, thanks, this type of info is everywhere but where it should be, the front pages of papers.

Ranier isn't even worth a comment. No he is.Send your daughter to Bankstown high and speak to me in 6 months.....

The sick leftist hippies who dreamed up such multiculti policy need to be exterminated, I sincerly mean that. Multiculturalism has ruined this nation. I grew up in Cabramatta in the 1980's and I can tell you that most Asians there are extremely racist, bigots who would call us Aussies "stupid skips" as they spat at, or violently attacked in groups of twenty, it's outrageous. The left hide the statistics too, it's sickening. Cabramatta is the drug capital of our entire nation, could you imagine what would happen if a group of whites went to another land and inside of twenty years were the source of all their drugs? Their people would be killing us themselves, not the army.

Or Australians in a Muslim nation, saying to them, you guys are all sick, we need to turn you into Christians alright? Pull out the swords as we'd all be beheaded, after the women were given the standard tribal punishment of gang rape.

Yes, the Piss Christ! try it on Muslims and we would have a riot, & mass murder.

Hey Dave, You should at least have the decency to reply to those who have supported you here. A good opportunity to commiserate and empathize - Perhaps you could even invite them around for a chat, drinks and nibbles at your place? They are after all, your kind of people. I’m sure Alan Jones already knows them from his talk back radio shows! Keep it up mate!

Ben, can you email me ? jdrmot@tpg.com.au

Davo.. be nice to touch base with you also mate.

I'd like to discuss some things with you guys further.

Rainier, I'd like to dialogue with you also if possible.

You would do a lot better by engaging the issue :)

Boaz, sounds like you're desperate for a dinner party. I'm sure David Flint will bring the nasi goreng and the nachos. For the poster that grew up in Cabramatta, do you think that racism is a horrible trait that is preserved for anglos only? That only we should be privy to it? Start scoring points against every race that has been introduced into Aust and it's not working because they aren't embracing thongs and barbies? If you were living in France I'm sure you would embrace their culture totally and eschew your political, emotional et al roots to Australia? Learn the language, wave their flag, vote Chirac, dress in Chanel? Nah, bet you'd still be walking down the Champs Elysee with your ugh boots and flannelette shirt listening to Cold Chisel. And wouldn't know your camembert from your Kraft.

If people that come to live in Australia find it hard to assimilate, it may possibly have to do with the way we have not exactly made them feel comfortable, as much as the baggage they have brought with them. Making any visitor feel welcome is more than a Centrelink payment, it's how we treat them on the street. In the last few years, this is sadly lacking.

What would you do Di if you moved to France? Would you learn to speak French? Would you try to embrace their culture whilst still retaining your cultural roots? Ask yourself the question and give yourself a truthful answer. I know I would and I suspect that you would as well. Why is that? Probably because we are tolerant people who want to mix with our new society and be successful there. We are probably people who embrace diversity and have genuine respect for the cultures of others. We probably believe that the French culture has many positive and precious aspects that we would want to share in.
Why is that good for us, yet to much to expect from others? You belittle one poster for saying that he would probably be wandering around Paris wearing a flanno and listening to Cold Chisel, (and probably eating a Sao with coon and vegemite), but a Muslim doing exactly the same thing in this country is fine by you. Intolerant of an Aussie in Paris, tolerant of an Iraqi in Sydney.
If you're going to be a compassion junky please drop the hypocrasy. Selective compassion is an insidious form of discrimination.
The same goes to good old Rainier. Look outside your University windows sometimes and you'll see a big wide world with problems that have to be solved in practical ways. We've all seen where your "feel-good" solutions have led us.

I'm particularly intrigued by the fragrant professor's use of the word "elite", which appears no fewer than nine times. Who, I wonder, does he consider to be "elite"? Is it simply shorthand for "people who disagree with me", or "people who don't agree with the ranters on talk-back radio"? Strikes me that given Prof. Flint's background and career, he would nine times out of ten be considered "elite" by those people he is appealing to in this article. As it happens, I walked past him on the Wynyard concourse a week or so ago, and thought to myself, there goes a fully paid-up member of the metropolitan elite...

But of course, we are in dog-whistle territory here, and boy, aren't those curs a-howlin'

Congratulations professor. Another piece of subtle rabble-rousing, perfectly pitched to the racist ear. I recall my late grandfather telling me of the powerful, and intellectually appealing, rhetoric of Oswald Mosley during the thirties in East London. He (my grandpappy, that is) was a paid-up brownshirt for a while, and knew whereof he spoke, first hand. All this incitement to hatred stuff, neatly disguised as pseudo-intellectual twaddle, is eerily familiar.

Discussing multiculturalism and immigration is one thing but Proffessor Flint ranting about elites has set my alarm bells ringing.

Are these elites as in the "Protocoles of the Elders of Zion" David? Or are they mysterious powerholders who manipulate public opinion for the self benefit of an invisible oligarchy?

Either way I suggest here that Proffesor Flint is trying to get ordinary Australians to feel that they have been cunningly manipulated by invisible but despicable forces. To what end? We have only to look at history.

Dear Di,
I think you actually BELIEVED those Paul Hogan tourist promo ads about 'what we are like':)

A lesson in Culture:

AUSSIE

Goes to neighbour, "Hey Bill, can I borrow your shovel mate" ?
Neighbour "sure, no worries pal, its beside the shed"

ASIAN

"Hi Bill-san, hows things ?.. the rife ? the kids ? Chickens ? I hear so and so caught a pig yesterday... woffle woffle... (just about to go... turns) Oh.. by the way... could I borrow your shovel for a while ?"

AUSSIE (meeting a stranger) "Hi there, nice to meet you.. whats your NAME" ?

ASIAN "err.. Karen.. (person known to you) .. see that person (new person) over there ?...(yep).. what's his name ?"

AUSSIE You arrive at a friends place, one family offers you food, you joyfully partake, have a good filling, and are bloated.

ASIAN You arrive at the village, one family offers you food, you take a SMALL sample, when the next family invites you, u gratefully accept, go to their place, have a sample... then the next family invites you.. and so on :)

Are you getting it yet Di ? We have to adjust to the way things are done locally. We simply learn about the customs, and we adjust, just like I had to. Its not that hard. (but I won’t eat a pigs head :) though they did tell me in ‘missionary school” .. to pray “Lord, I’ll eat it, YOU keep it down” :)

AUSSIE Friend introduces a new couple from overseas, you shake his hand.. and HERS... "Welcome to Oz"

OTHER CULTURE "a couple is introduced, you shake his hand, but don't touch the womans “ But if they come to Aussieland, we shake BOTH hands. with no apology or 2nd thought because... shock horror... "its our culture" :)

This is what I ask of immigrants -adjustment to our ways. To do otherwise is bad manners and arrogant ethnocentricity. Di, please read Romans Chapter 12 I am happy to be scrutinized by it :)

It's truly fascinating to witness the birth of a National Front-style white supremacist cell in this very forum. Do keep us posted about the progress of the various 'davids' and their cronies. I like Rainier's suggestion that the fragrant david should host their initial FTF tete-a-tete.

The irony is that the racists here play right into the hands of terrorists, who are interested only in disrupting our society as much as possible. By repetitively and offensively sowing the seeds of hate, they achieve the objectives of the lunatics who carry out the bombings. Or at least they would, if anybody took them seriously.

Indeed, given the increasingly rabid nature of many of the racist comments in this forum, it is becoming ever harder to work out who the real lunatics are. From an agnostic/humanist perspective, it's increasingly difficult to distinguish the rantings of the fundamentalist Xians from the nonsense spouting from the radical Islamists. And then there's your good old-fashioned boofheaded White Australia/One Nation crew... now in an unholy alliance with the effete racist snobbery exemplified by the aromatic professor.

We do indeed live in interesting times. Tell us how the party goes.

No one here is advocating white domination of the world Garra, if so tell me where. White supremecists advocate complete white domination the world over, which no-one here is advocating.

To say that people who don't agree with your views on multi culti are white supremecists is insulting, ignorant and just plain rude. More a reflection of your pig headedness, I'd say!

Multiculturalism is silly, prudish and should be dispensed of immediately. Australia has A culture which is worth preserving and at the very least, respected. wE DON'T NEED VAGUENESS TO DEFINE WHO WE ARE. GOOD BYE MULTI CULTI!

See this wonderful book review of 'Twilight of the Elites' by David Flint (stone?) by Tristan Ewins - posted Thursday, October 02, 2003
A very good biopsy of the good professor’s pretentious intellectual meanderings.
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=762

When one claims a more successful culture, one is elitist or racist

When one says ‘Australian’ culture, one is talking about a mixture of culture, because that is how Australia was formed.

There is no real ‘Australian’ culture. Our ways - as supposedly tolerant, democratic and friendly -are inherited from other cultures (English, European, Asian).

If you took out all the bits and pieces of culture called ‘Australian’ that came from somewhere else, you’d have an arm-chair sportsman with a beer in one hand and a shrimp in the other…. Oh wait, the beer would be from elsewhere…. So much for the fun part…

So be thankful for the multi-culture that we have… that is what has defined ‘Australian’ culture.

Reason...

I'm beginning to suspect you have a substance abuse problem :) "Ecstacy" giving you the warm fuzzies and completely disconnecting you from reality.

I searched in vain in all anti multicultural posts in this thread, and I cannot for the life of me find even one instance of "Superior Culture" I do find 'Prevailing' and 'Different' but superior ?
sorry, that train left.

Its not about SUPERIOR... its about 'OURS' get it ?

Your disregard for careful analysis leaves me astounded. I have a suggestion, before anyone rambles on about 'racist' .. don't say anything we are not prepared to back up in a court of law if we said it in PUBLIC. And I assure you, that the term 'racist' applied to most of us would be actionable.

Mate.. you truly need to get out more. Have you ever been out of Australia ? Have you ever lived in a community of more than one culture where the populations are close in number ? have you been in a village, populated by 'Race A' and nearby is a village of 'Race B' ? villages are a microcosm of society you know.

Reason, before you make yourself look like an uninformed screwball, (for you and Garra and some others, it might be a bit late for that) please take a short course in anthopology. I'm sure you can pick one up at a nearby Tafe, or, even do some careful reading on the net. A lite dose of basic psychology would go well also.

The real shock to me is Pericles usual high standard of incisive scrutiny seems to have gone out the window on this one.
"perfectly pitched to the racist ear".. ru serious ?

If you had the heart to being a solution rather than simply 'noting' the problem why not point out any 'racist' aspects we need to guard against ? 'Having' a culture is not a crime, nor is it 'racist'.
It may 'contain' racist elements, but why not address THAT instead of poor bub being chucked out with the.. ....

Tristan's review is gr8

I've had trouble sleeping lately so I've printed David Flint's article and placed it by my bed – a quick read will have me snoring away in no time. Seriously though, maybe we should have an HUAC (House Un-Australian Activities Committee) and root out these mysterious "elites". I can see it now:

FLINT: Are you, or have you ever been, a member of the Australian Democrat Party?

There seems to be a lot of claims being made about multiculturalism “ruining Australia”, but very little evidence, if any, is offered to support such a claim. People can bang on about Sheik Mohammed Omran and his crazy theories about the London bombings or his apologetics for Osama bin Laden, but they need to demonstrate how the ramblings of a few nutters constitute a failure of multiculturalism. Proclaiming multiculturalism to be a failure also takes the spectacular ability to ignore the fact that there are millions of people of all sorts of cultural backgrounds living in Australia who go about their everyday business just like any white heterosexual middle class Christian male. They do things like go to work, go to school, buy houses, go shopping, have friends and family over on the weekends and play sports. It seems the only way to assimilate is to change your skin colour, lose your accent and convert to Christianity.

But there’s some bad news for the Mohammed Omrans and the Benjamin “The sick leftist hippies who dreamed up such multiculti policy need to be exterminated” Burns of this country. Most Australians are way too accepting (not just "tolerant") of people who are different to themselves. Most Australians don’t think dividing the country into "us" and "them" is productive, and they won’t let extremist clerics or racist bigots achieve their goal of creating such a division. People just won’t go for another White Australia Policy.

You will find that the vast majority of Australians, if given a chance, will not stand for a multicultural society either. It is not like they were consulted before or after the imposition of this bizarre social policy. It was forced down their throats. How about a public debate?

Boaz, I strongly recommend that you read "My Life", the autobiography of Sir Oswald Mosley, once described as "the greatest orator of the twentieth century", and certainly of massively higher intellectual capacity than the fragrant professor Flint.

Mosley argues cogently and persuasively for the kind of cultural protection advocated by Flint, and had the moral courage to stand up for those beliefs over his entire lifetime. My grandfather actually attended one of Mosley's Limehouse rallies, and was able to attest personally to the ability of the man to get his message through to the average joe-in-the street.

Mosley's cultural target was "the Jews". He was intelligent and capable enough to couch his attacks in sufficiently neutral language to avoid being pigeon-holed as simply a hater-of-Jews, and even recruited some prominent Jewish thinkers into the British Union of Fascists - including, somewhat incredibly, Bill Leaper, who edited their magazine "The Blackshirt". However, when you heard him speak, it was pretty clear what he was getting at.

Sir Oswald fiercely rejected the label "racist" or - as was more popular in those days "anti-Semite". Despite this rejection, there can be no doubt, when you examine the historical records, that Mosley incited racist reactions in his audience. This was the basis of my remark "perfectly pitched to the racist ear".

To quote Mosley for a moment:

"We are treated as a nation of children; every item of social legislation is designed, not to enable the normal person to live a normal life, but to prevent the decadent from hurting himself. At every point the private liberty of the individual is invaded by busybody politicians who have grossly mismanaged their real business - which is the public life of an organised nation."

You can perhaps begin to see the equation with those mysterious "elites".

[You will find that the vast majority of Australians, if given a chance, will not stand for a multicultural society either. It is not like they were consulted before or after the imposition of this bizarre social policy.]

If anti-multiculturalism is such a huge vote winner, why don’t major political parties incorporate it into their policy platform? The David Flints of this country insist that only a tiny minority of Australians (those mysterious “elites”) support multiculturalism, so surely an announcement of a party’s intention to put an end to multiculturalism would see a massive increase in popular support – what are they waiting for?

[It was forced down their throats. How about a public debate?]

This is one of my favourites – the claim that people aren’t allowed to challenge multiculturalism because of “political correctness” and so on. If people believe their opposing view to multiculturalism doesn’t get a hearing in the media may I suggest they open a newspaper and read a column by Andrew Bolt, Piers Akerman, Miranda Devine, Janet Albretchsen, or the Murdoch press editorials, or have a listen to Alan Jones. If I had a dollar for every letter to the editor I read proclaiming “The end is nigh if we don’t reverse multiculturalism” I’d be going into early retirement. There IS a public debate. The problem is that some people want to have their say and not have to defend their views or face counter argument – and when their views ARE challenged they claim they’re being “shouted down by the PC Brigade”.

BD –
At what point did I use the word ‘superior’? Are you putting words in my mouth? Or twisting to get the meaning you can refute?

I said successful. And my point (as you so obviously missed) is that anyone who claims the ‘Australian’ culture can thank foreigners for that culture. Ours is made up of parts of thinking from different cultures – including middle eastern, southern European, English, American (more every day) and Asian. You did say ‘OURS’, didn’t you?... ironic really.

Thanks for the snide comments though. You have no idea about me, my education or my life experience. The more you use that style of commentary, the more revealing of yourself you are. It can only help to put your comments and thoughts in a truer light.

I would agree that villages are microcosms. I have seen those microcosms at work. Perhaps your tainted worldview is the problem. When missionaries fail (not that I say yours did), it is easy to blame the culture instead of the desired goal – which maybe the people were just too smart to fall for the spin?

BD, try to avoid snide and condescending comments.

Regards,

(name withheld)
PhD (History), BPsy (Hons)… Cheers BD

I have no problem with Professor Flint's use of 'elites', Pericles', but I need your coaching in just how 'fragrant' applies to the Professor. Does the man have a pleasant odour; is he sweet scented; is he delightful; is he pleasant or, does he bring you fragrant memories? Perhaps I consult the wrong dictionaries, or perhaps I am just ignorant of the argot of your particular elite.

Reason

I take your pedantic point .. 'superior' was not directly used by you. Apologies.

Successful + Racist= ‘superior’ If you avoided the R word, I would not have used ‘superior’.

You correctly identified the 'English/European/Asian' in terms of their arrival order.
But how you jump from that good observation to
"if we took all the bits.. armchair+shrimp" ? now that’s well reasoned isn't it :)
(sorry mate, Hoge’s was just a tourism Ad)

Yes, 'we' came from other places. and then we formed an identifiable body of tradition and lore, and we became 'Australian', which comprises 'predominantly' or even better put 'overwhelmingly' the Anglo European stream. I would not even call it 'more successful' I would just call it the 'prevailing/predominant' and quite legitimately so.

To suggest that it lacks identifiable cultural trademarks is rather shabby history.
Have you read the prose of Lawson and the poetry of Patterson ? I'm sure you have.

To suggest the anglo/European mob would not be perturbed by any attempt to 'Islamize' (for example) our legal system, or give special exceptional treatment to Muslims, is poor psychology.

We need to avoid the danger of "'learning much, but knowing little".

To use the 'village' illustration further. We have a village, which contains a particular tribe.
They all speak the same language, except for about 5% where other races have married into the tribe.
Those 5% all now speak the tribal language, and they observe and respect the customs of the founding/original village. If they don't they will be ostracized for insulting the history and traditions.
Its not rocket science.

How many people would reasonably charge the founding villagers with 'intolerance' if the head man berates one of those 5% who wants to suddenly change village law because it 'does not suit his own culture'.. I mean.. c'mon.
He can follow his own ways among them TO THE EXTENT that they don't infringe on the tradiitons and values of the existing village.

How is it that the concept of 'Anglo/European' 'village' mentality seems to escape those on the 'multi-cultural side of the debate ?

Pericles..thanx

Mmmm, the luxury of defining multiculturalism and how it hasn't worked for Australia. Being a mongrel bred, second gen Aussie, with family trees in South Africa, Portugal, England, Scotland, France, I can hardly slag it off as not working. Not having visited any of these countries, no doubt my forebears who were born there, left for their own good reasons and came to Australia, thereby "multi-culting" it. Back when they did so, the indigenous people of this country did not have a say about they pros and cons of multiculturalism.

Back in the days, before passports and immigration were invented, multicultural races and societies came about vis a vis, Roman invasion of the British Isles, Attila the Huns rampaged through all of Northern Europe to China, Vikings' invasion of British Isles, whereby multiculturalism was enforced by rape, pillage and plunder. At least these days, it's a little more civilised. So who's in a position to say any culture is so pure that it needs to be preserved in toto? Culture is a mutable thing. Otherwise we'd still be painting frescos of Jesus at the last supper and not women with square boobs.

And Bozzie, Oui! if I chose to live in France, I would quite happily saunter down the Champs Elysse with a glass of Verve Cliquot in one hand and a Gauloise in the other, would learn the correct pronunciation of Voulez Vous, however I would certainly hope that the French people would welcome me and encourage me in my desire to explore and assimilate. As much as they would want me to give them a great recipe for kangaroo pate.

Wot, so no takers for Kanga Pate?

Di, still struggling with the square boob's thing ;). You are absolutely spot on in your observations about cultures changing - certainly they do in societies which have any kind of change (improved technology and medicine being two changes I really want to keep).

For those who doubt it just have a look at a movie from the fifties or think about the humour in shows about the 70's and eighties.

R0bert

DEATH OF MULTICULTURALISM

This is one of the best articles I've read on it. Written it would seem by an 'ethnic' :) if his name is anything to go by.
http://www.irr.org.uk/2002/april/ak000001.html
Definitely worth a read for all sides of the issue.

Then, read about the dynamics and history of the Dutch situation. Fascinating AND very instructive.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/11/922941ab-4df5-47ef-87da-1d726d9f1db0.html

One of the key elements was that the 'guest workers' were mean't to RETURN home to Morocco etc, but a the critical moment they didn't WANT to, and the Government allowed them to stay AND bring their families = IMMEDIATE ghetto.

Now they are paying the price and the political climate is VERY much toward the 'right'.

Just think, some good analysis and sound social policy at the beginning would have avoided such polarization.

Humans usually are not willing to share their nations, cultures and rights etc ....... is very idealistic and indulgent to expect otherwise, any vague browse tho history will show this...
Churchill would not accept the word of Nevil Chamberlain that he had made peace with Hitler etc.

This is what Winston had to say on the subject of Islam in civilised society
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

—Sir Winston Churchill, from The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).

John Lock another idealist, but one, who actully made a difference with thoughts on seperation of religion and law was also not to keen on islam.

It's facing facts that is importent, while idealism can be seen as kind, it is often foolish and even cowardly.

best wishes to al

Meridtih,

John Locke, as with many of his peers, did not acknowledge belief in other non Christian Gods and gernally rallied against 'atheism'.

He also believed that a state of nature was much more preferable than a state of war.(As both Christians and Muslims do).

I'm puzzled on why you're citing him as illustrative and contextually relevant to Australian soveriegty and nationhood - which did not evolve from adherance to precedents in international law at all.

Meredith

Thank you for your post. Your quote from Sir Winston Churchill is not only timely, but also relevant.

I have heaps of ideas to propose. I guess this one really captures it all. This is what studyislam.com has to say about the "guts" of it's religion, faith and followers:

" The name of this relgion is Islam, the root of which, Silim or Salam, means peace. ... The word however, means more than just "peace". It means submission to the One God, as well as to live in harmony with other people and with the environment ...".

Wow! I love the line about living in harmony!

Cheers
Kay

Hi Rainer

i was making the point that islam stil has not made the leap to seperating law n religion ....but more i am thinking on Winston having the guts to speak out, when all anyone wanted in back in those days was peace after ww1...... Locks law n religion was an afterthought in my post..... but, i am thinking it explains partly why islam is so problematic in western civilized society ....... also Lock wasnt keen on islam either, realising probably that it is incapable of that leap.

Xtians and muslims (and john lock as you say)also athiests.. may may rant on about nature over war ..... to me personally that is selfish idealism, sadly this "peaceful nature" is not human nature,its just an idea or concept beyond our mass reach...it is selfish to push a unatianble concept on a species.. natural life is actully war like anyway, humans are war like, as in we tend to protect our own.

As far as it been relevent to Austrailia, well i dont know, (your very wordy there and i dont know what you meaning almost...sorry) , but yes i think all ideas and actions are relvent to western civilisation and culture.... ie we stopped burning witches and islam still chops n hacks hands and heads... basically law n religion was my comment there re John Locke.

i worry about issues like the courtcase in Victoria, where 2 preachers were charged with religious vilification agaisnt islam ... all thay actully did in their sermon was quote the Koran.....surely laws against rioting and violence in general should cover this... this is threating the right to free speech!!The rigth of reply in debate should be kept alive not squashed...... this is multiculture gone wrong or... maybe not able to work in the first place, well maybe not with islam.

Hi kalweb,

yup... one god or we kill you.... the deal islam proposes to countries it colonizes is "peace" islamic style..

sorry for the sloppy spelling
best wishes

Newflash: Middle-eastern male stabbed to death by group of Asian males at Liverpool Westfields.

Newsflash: Three Asian males shot by group of Asian males at Cabramatta Bowling Club.

These events occured yesterday, but they've also occured thousands of times out that way, although the treasonous ABS like to hide statistics on ethnic crime - a form of terrorism in itself really. I now live on the central coast where such things are unheard of (I wonder why?) but lived in Cabramatta/Liverpool for most of my life, up until 2003. I'm now 27yrs, so I grew up in the heart of the experiment, and from my end it failed dismally. 350 words won't be enough time to describe the racism one suffers out there if you happen to be a minority like I am (white male), but suffice it to say this letter I sent the Daily Telegraph will show a little of what it's like....

The murder of the young middle-eastern man outside Liverpool Westfields would hardly be a suprise to those who live in the surrounding area. As someone who lived in Liverpool for seven years, going to the local Westfields was a nightmare, with one regularly being intimidated by middle-eastern thugs. Being a young white male, I was often racially abused by these thugs, although young women, who the thugs would all run up to asking for sex, offering their numbers, sometimes while the girl was with her boyfriend, copped it the most. People who don't live in the western suburbs have no idea about how horrible just going to the shops can be, living side by side with extremely intolerant, ethnocentric people.

Professor Flint's article is spot on, although he surely didn't live out there as I did coming from his set. But as predicted by a range of anthropologists, one wouldn't need to live there to see the failures. Indeed, we see them on the Nightly News each night, and in the papers.

Meredith, you might want to be careful invoking Churchill's enlightened views on race and culture. He also thought Australians were irredeemable - "bad stock".

Poor Professor Flint. He left his most prized bait right there in paragraph four and there were no takers. Very clever. And all of those with the credentials to pick it up were so concerned with their own credentialism, history lessons and brawl to the top of the cultural heap. Amazing. Congratulations Professor. I don't agree with you but have to admire you anyway.

Chainsmoker.. very good point actually.

I've often referred to 'trendy social engineers' and that para pretty well sums up and confirms exactly how so much culture change occurs and also, crucially, how peoples THINKING changes over time.

They don't want to be left out or be seen to be on the fringe of the mainstream of ideas, so all one has to do is convince them or portray a new idea as IF it is mainstream and accepted, and before long the 'original thinking challenged' among us are uttering a new song which they claim is intirely their own.

This happened with the gay agenda, it happened with 'multi-culturalism' and it is NOW happening with the 'pedophile' agenda, including a post by an education professor in this forum.

Instead of being blown and swayed as an anchorless ship by the newest socially trendy wind, why don't we reconsider this and be prepared to take some flack over principle ?

Failure to have a thought out approach to culture and immigration etc, will have only one result, it will allow the true xenophobes and many an average Joe in the street to internalize it all, bottling it up until it comes out in VERY anti social ways due to frustration on the one hand and lack of action from where it should have come at policy levels on the other.

Hi anomie

Yes at times John Curtain was pissed of with Winston over Aussie troops, pulling us out of Nth Africa etc. The thing is Winston also, as happens in war, sunk a boatload of Brits. Nothing is perfect…bad stuff happens in war no one likes. Personally, I think WC would win a war, run a country, better than some crock like Mike Moore.

Many Australians love and admire Winston as a visionary (i.e. his recognition of the Nazis in the face of Chamberlain, his early detection of Stalin's agenda.

The basics are we were allies, with a common goal, unlike Iran who sided with the Nazis.

This string is about multicultural pros and cons, my post of WC's quote is an observation by him on that subject, and it is a review of culture by a man who has been right many times before, not bickering between leaders under the duress of war.

Also we are a nation of convicts, personally I dig that.

Hi Chainsmoker,

Yes that is a cool paragraph, faddish and reactive social trends such as social Darwinism and political correctness are just that, fads… fetishized idealisms can often be quiet selfish and out of touch with cold hard facts.

Cheers

Meredith..for 'Chamberlain' read "greens.. Bob Brown, socialist left"

They are all the same.....

The claim that 'multiculturalism works' is a rhetorical nonsense coming from the naive or those with the most to lose.

I do not believe in a 'multi-cultural' Australia. I like a 'White' Australia with a fairly significant minority population of diverse culture, with the exclusion of Muslims culture. And I mean a total exclusion of Islamic culture... if possible.

GZ Tan.......I'm with you!

Actually GZ, Muslims themselves have repeatedly said that they are against multiculturalism too, that we must all become Islamic. Doesn't it make the blood boil to know that these cowards use our western notions of freedom of speech, tolerance, to attack us?

Actually, the famed Omar Bakri, of Britain (although apparently now expelled) has said that "We Muslims will use your democracy to destroy your democracy". When one looks into Islam, one doesn't find the peaceful religion our leaders rant on about to the camera's, one sees a hateful, intolerant religion giving into man's passions, which is bizzare considering Muslims think the west is decadent!

Muslims are allowed to have four wives, kill their enemies (where murder is wrong in Christianity, it is not so in Islam....in fact their prophet was rather fond of it) and allows man to give into paedophilic tendencies as a girl is considered a woman at the tender age of nine in Islam, although the Prophet took a six year old for a wife.

Muslims are allowed to lie to the kaffir, treat us like dogs (look up dhimmitude on google) and much more. Further, if you've thought it strange how Muslims are coming out about Iraq & Afghanistan regarding human rights, you're not the only one. Muslims have always abused human rights, Islam means suppression, surrender, and while it's acceptable practise to beat wives, take child brides, and mutilate genitalia, they don't like it much when we kill insurgents in Iraq, and have the bizzare impression (which reflects the conspiratorial mind of the Muslim) that the west is blowing up buses full of school kids in Iraq....

I agree that one day Islam will be banned, I really see this. It's sad though, because our western philosophy accepts everyone else, as long as they are tolerant. Muslims clearly aren't on the whole. Their leaders do nothing but apologize for terrorism. Leaders like Hilali actually have said they support it!

Oh, the luxury of being a white supreme (Christian) male living in the right society to decree who shall live here and who shall not. Re killing enemies, i don't think Islam has the market on that, christianity has more than a bit of blood on its hands. I just love it when white "enlightened" males carry on about how oppressive Islamic males are to their wives/women in this day and age, remember guys, it wasn't too long ago when white male western society were rather open slather in their despicable ways they treated women under Westminster Law. Whilst not perfect, all should be tolerated whilst being educated, education being a much more insidious way of bringing around the enemy to our way of thinking. Otherwise, I'd still be in the drawing room with the ladies talking needlepoint while you guys are in the dining room smoking cigars and pinching the maids' bottoms. Culture with a capital K. Don't think it's too special

Alrhough I haven't posted much on this site, I've been reading the articles and comments with great interest.

It seems that this thread has now reached the stage where some people feel authorised to post comments that are openly racist or amount to little more than religious vilification.

Like it or not, we now have a 'multicultural' society, which includes a significant Muslim minority among others. There is no way that any Australian government is going to start deporting Muslim citizens or banning the practice of their religion.

Seems to me that those who hold racist or religiously intolerant ideas need to change their perspectives, because it can only lead to conflict in our society. We can't turn back the clock, and ethnic cleansing is not an option.

Hey Di,

are you one of those people who get excited at the prospect of a shrinking white majority and an increasing ethnic minority?

Yes, I thought so. you're one of those...and you don't even realise how pathetic you look. Who is more dangerous: a Islamicist, a Hindu supremist, a black supremacist, a white supremacist or a multiculturalist? I'd have to say the multiculturalist.

Giaman /Di

its true inloerence is a pain in the ass..... i have been vilified by muslim men often, please help me persicute the hell out them with yur pc thought police, its really great u want to support vilified and persicuted people, so what to the pc brigade propose to do to those horrible nasy intolernt men who spat and hissed at me cuz im an aussie slut ?

To those who post racist comments and/or vilify Muslims in this forum:

How exactly do you think that your comments help to ameliorate the situations that obviously anger you? Given that, as I said in my last post, Australian society is now multicultural and 'ethnic cleansing' is not an option, just how does it help anyonen to promote a return to a 'white' Australia, or to advocate the banning of Islam?

I suspect that the only positive benefit may be to the individuals who post such rubbish here, but I think that they could achieve exactly the same result without offending reasonable-minded readers by simply going to the toilet instead.

giaman

If you read other threads related to either Islam (topically) or multiculturalism you will find that there is a great deal of hostility, racism and vilification expressed.

I take heart in the fact that OLO ran a poll on Mandatory Detention. Despite the numerous posts on various threads that agreed with M.D., the results of the poll were overwhelmingly against M.D. with very, very few in favour. The results of this Poll was submitted to Fed Gov by Graham Young at the time of Georgiou Petrov's stand against the gov.

Therefore, I proceed optimistically that the POV of the majority reading OLO forums is far more tolerant and inclusive than these threads would indicate. The best thing is to ignore the really obnoxious ones. And know that we are a successful multicultural nation despite the efforts of the prejudiced who only seek to divide us.

Cheers

Giaman, Trinity, agreed.
Its virtually impossible to have a productive discussion about mullticulturalism, Islam etc as the threads get taken over and effectively shut down by the same few extremists with very bizarre ideas. They clearly aren't interested in working towards solutions.

Interestingly, when I get letters in my local paper about these issues, I get hate mail from two groups; fundamentalist Christians and white supremacists, the latter who grafitti'ed my home with swastikas. So who do I, as a Jew, fear most? Not Muslims (apart from, as I've mentioned before, a fear of getting fat because of their hospitality - too much great food)

Hi PC crew

I can sympathize, with your sense of injustice, my last post is actually true, I have been racially vilified by Islamists, to the extent I left my home in Sydney, I was so sick of it. I have had Jewish and African boyfriends, so I don’t think I am particularly hung up on skin colour or a "racist"… do you?

Why do you pick on white people when they complain but support any other race or groups who suffers from abuse? Do you actually believe that white Australians/Anglos in general are in some way horrible? Do you believe all other races are above them, never discriminating at all?

Why don’t you actually accept there are problems, and care for ALL citizens? This blog is an indication there are problems. I.e. why did none of you answer my last post. Instead it seemed to be classified as racist, as if my situation was not worthy of care?

I think the reason pc is looked down on, is because it blindly or stubbornly refuse to acknowledge reality outside of a the theory or ideals of political correctness, often at the cost of fair play...

Like do you actually hate white people or rich people or right wing people? If not how do you feel about them? Also what do you propose to do to solve these problems? Do you have a method to force us all to get along? Your pc censoring of opinion and reaction hasn’t worked there is to much resentment now over the disrespect for white women and Anglo values and culture or the xtian religion etc.

Most people would like peace, and many tried naturally to be pc, as it does have nice ideals, the thing is its not working… what do you propose?

Multiculturalism is a cancer forced upon all western countries. In Britain the multi cultists are worse.

This article sums up the situation and should answer your questions Merideth.

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CACE2.htm

Two race related murders, one white victim and one black victim. We know all about Anthony Walker, but nothing about Richard Whelan. Is that because Richard is white?

meredith, there is an approach used by some regarding discrimination (of various sorts) which relates it to perceived power structures. Racism, sexism, discrimination etc can only flow from the supposedly more powerful to the weaker. Hence a member of a minority group can never discriminate against a member of a group perceived to be more powerful. If a member of an "oppressed" minority lashes out at you as a member of the "privileged" majority it is an expression of their oppressinon. Well that's how I understand the argument to flow.

That is why I think some of the left wing posters won't speak out against some racist acts. Why some refuse to condem DV when a male is the victim etc.

I'm of the view that while we should try and have some understanding for the issues which lie behind racism, sexism etc that does not provide an excuse for attacking others. We won't stop these ism's by turning the tables but rather tolerating none of it.

R0bert

SHOSHANA.......

elohim ohev otach

And.. God also loves the descendants of Ishmael... (Arabs) and the spiritual descendants, but in the hope they will repent and turn to Him.

We should accept individuals of any faith with compassion and kindness. This even includes NAZI's... but their ideas we REJECT....
and I have a feeling, that you especially, being Jewish, would reject them more strongly than most of us.

You have nothing to fear from Muslims, apart from 'ISLAM'. (which under Sharia law would probably have given you a 100 lashes for various forms of behavior which to your secular (?) mind, is quite ok.

You have nothing to fear from National Socialists... except "National Socialism".

We have nothing to fear from "Marxists"...except "Marxism"

When it comes to Islam, and its regard for Jews.. a bit of research might be helpful and informative Shoshana.

DAVO very good link there man... here is a quote from it:

"In the competitive struggle for prestige (and state resources) unleashed by multiculturalism, every minority must justify its claim by elevating its sufferings. Even established minorities feel obliged to enter the fray: while Muslims inflate every personal slight into a manifestation of Islamophobia, Jews cite the desecration of graves with swastikas as proof of a new wave of anti-Semitism."

Davo, don't compare apples with pears and don't call me pathetic if you don't mind. A shrinking white majority is something I've seen a lot of on a chilly Sydney beach. No need to put labels on black supremist, multi culti etc. It's called STEREOTYPING which is one of human beings biggest failures as an enlightened social species. For the female poster who has been vilified for being called an aussie slut by swarthy men... Yes, it's infuriating, but I've been called some pretty horrid (and ludicrous) things by white males as well, in their natural habitat such as a social venue or just walking past. I'd hardly say any multiculture introduced in Australia has the handle on sexism. It's easy to confuse the two when they're hand in hand (or foot in mouth). This is degenerating into blatant racism by the usual suspects. Frankly I would rather celebrate the individual, the glass is half full when it comes to people as far as I'm concerned, rather than half empty. That's not being PC, it's just recognising that some people are lucky enough to be born in the right place, right time, right country. Just because I feel I have been and have no inclination to move, doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened to me.

Hello people,

Robert thanks for the frank explanation, very appreciated! Yes, I have heard that theory, and I agree. It's unbalanced to the point of being ridiculous, in its own racism. The damage done by idealist social fad type stuff is never good, to force social policies on people, where the issues are more personal (race culture sex stuff) is selfish and only breeds resentment. DavidBoaz is correct when he stated in his last post it's not the person it’s the effect of their religion or policy etc on our society we have to fear.

Robert the suggestion that NONE of us judge or criticize, whilst I can appreciate it, I don’t think will work with human nature, no human has the tolerance, to not form an opinion or have a reaction. I'd like open debate no holds barred let the structures /cultures /ideals what ever stand on their own merits, surely we can cope with a lil honesty and offence in the name of truth?

Di,
Aussie men have never insulted me, sometimes they are rude, but not with the hatred for western women of the muslim men. There is a huge difference…This is what I am talking about, when I have mentioned that I find PC an idealism that has had to come to the point of denying actual realities to maintain the PC utopian ideal.

PC has become so intrusive it even claims people's rights to their own judgments and feelings on issues by branding them with dirty words such as "racist". (If they are white) You want to celebrate the individual, well let them be individual.

I don't like Islam, I'm not stupid, I'm not racist, it's my observation.

The kids pass through sterile dumbed down universities, go on to dull government policy making jobs in the equal rights dept, some of us have to live in the real world enduring this whacked out S**t they enforce on our society. LOL.

Bring back real debate! Lets stop "chattering classes" condescendingly writing us off as "racist" and ask them to actually prove pc works for ALL citizens.

Meredith, I don't think you are stupid, I am merely gobsmacked that you don't see that dumb aussie male (sorry Guys but it does happen) rudism is not innate hatred or contempt, which certainly non-aussie males can and do openly display. Been on the receiving end of both and see it as totally misogynistic and coming from a gender, rather than a culture.

However, back to multiculturalism, which is and should be, much more than male behaviour. This is not the benchmark that we should be judging multiculturalism on. I too, have a problem with Islam but am much too uninformed to have a decisive and finished view on it. However, I have much as a problem with the culture of Catholicism, which I was dragged up in in the 70s, (Vatican II) which I had the freedom to question and reject. That's a democracy. The multi culti thing gives people that have been brought up in the old country, but most especially their offspring who straddle the cultures, the licence to question, reject and grow out of "the old country", and Aust has many things to celebrate about it. On many levels we have seen that with Italians, Greeks and Europeans, as well as Asians, and Jewish of all the above ilk. Why are we so worried about Islam now? We are still on NIMBY territory. We are alarmed rather than alert.

Nobody wants terrorism, which is not to be confused with genuine people wanting to be here and be part of a free, given multiculturalism - to be allowed to live and work and be involved in politics and religion. Wouldn't you, if you came from such a god forsaken place? To make sure it didn't happen again here? We have done well in a democratic, first world country, when it was mainly British. No wonder it is seen as Heaven on a Stick.

Hey Di....another post which is clearly untainted by many of the extremes of life :) I think your a 'cupboard liberal' just waiting to be outed haha... Kidding.

Re Islam Di, its not an easy thing for the average Aussie to get a handle on. It takes a bit of study, and certainly helps to have lived under it and with it in community (as I have).
To be honest, most Malaysian Muslims in the non PAS controlled states (PAS is an extreme/fundy mob) are just like the average Aussie, pleasant, helpful etc.. but they DO react also like us if you posture yourself or ur words in a way which could be 'threatening' to their prevailing culture. I understand it, and respect it.. and reciprocate it :) (good for Peter, good for Paul) in better terms, its just how people work in social groups. Its not rocket science (except to some here :)

I get a lot of vibes by chatting with Muslims on IRC, one even burned down his 'Christian' hostel in the USA as a student because he felt they tricked him into staying there to be 'converted'. He was from Egypt.

Di, then, one should read some Islamic History.. here is a good link

http://www.swordofallah.com/html/companionshome.htm

Its actually quite fascinating reading and gives one a 'sense' of the historic mindset of Muslims. Specially the Battle of Yarmuk which was the beginnings of serious Islamic military expansion.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1d.html

Another good one. That last is not an Islamic source, the SwordOfAllah is.

I dont't find the Quran in the least bit inspiring. The hadith are also shocking in many places, but are the source of many of the histories

Mohammed (founder)
Quran (holy book, said to be the 'literal words of Allah')
Hadith (oral traditions of the companions of Mohammed)
Histories (based on Quran, Hadith and various other sources.)

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/nickberg_photos.html (strong stomach required, look at the text not the photo's)

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/playboy.html

That is a 'hate' propoganda site, but if you filter out the hate words, the facts remain.

Hope this gives some insights.

Hi Di,

Thanks for the open answer and willingness to talk.
David has given links, the koran, hadiths and mohammad, amongst the poetical charm of the religion, these texts break down into a thesis for spread of islam, by colonizing, breeding and forced conversion, presently with legislation (implementing sharia law into other culture (look at the Victorian vilification case)), or civil war (rebal groups and terrorism, Africa, Indonesia etc).NY, Spain, Bali, London.

Also if you look on these topics:

The Ottoman Empire, the empire of peace, other analysis will include accounts of xtian and jewish and infidel persecution ranging from taxes to death. The crusades are worth a open mind as well.

Sharia law starting to legislate in Canada at present.

The 1915 Armenian massacre presently reintroduced into European high school history much to the anguish of the Turks who want into the EU.

Europe's past 40 years of multiculture is worth looking into, they have 25 years on us with Islam. There is a desperate attempt now to halt Islam.

The slaughter of Theo VanGogh (Vincent's grandson).
Ayaan Hirsiali a Somalian muslim woman who wrote the film Theo was slain for. http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/log/2067439

Dutch flag banned, termed racist.

Stonings in France…

I believe we all naturally have a duty to other lives as you do, scroll back, see post on Churchill's re the Nazis. I feel we should speak up as WC did and save ourselves from the fate of today's islamic Europe. Allot of people who lobby against islam haven't disliked other cultures. Nazi, islam, commi, catholic, xtian etc there is some good in all, it's up to us to research, as occasioanlly one is obscene to the point of no recovery.

I value your opinion and can sense your decency. I think "NIMBY" divides you and I on this. I say yes or no, depending on my assessment. For a myriad of reasons, my cultural preservation is vitally important to me.

Looking forward to your opinion on these topics.

Since they have not answered them, I pose the following questions again to those who post racist comments and/or vilify Muslims in this forum:

How exactly do you think that your comments help to ameliorate the situations that obviously anger you? Given that Australian society is now multicultural and 'ethnic cleansing' is not an option, just how does it help anyone to promote a return to a 'white' Australia, or to advocate the banning of Islam?

One might be forgiven for thinking that some of the most voluble posters in these threads are more interested in exacerbating conflict than in trying to participate in a more cohesive society.

I don't see any 'racist' comments posted, just plain old common sense. And if they are racist, how is that necessarily bad? The media exposure of the murder of Anthony Walker, and the zero media exposure of the murder Richard Whelan is an example of 'good racism'? Two racially motivated murders, same evening, a good opportunity for some white bashing.

Like I said before, Islamic terrorism is not half as dangerous as multiculti. Multiculti would have all white aussies hacking their own heads off in no time. To answer your silly question, though, restrict further immigration!

davo

i agree also on limiting incoming people and sticking to standerds of Australian culture, also not to start dole money support on multi marriage.

As for what to do about it as it is, try and talk to people about our rights as Australians /and rights to freedom of speech / join in lobbying agaisnt the shocking abuse of free speech in the Victorian Vilification case as it is only a test trial. One letter is seen as many voices by the powers that be.

Prnce Charles in the UK tried to set up (he may of done it by now not sure) a help and protection centre for apostates (people converting to xtian from islam, as they often cop it bad)

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s892997.htm

a story of an apostate good reading hey.

if people aabuse you davo for been australian or try n slander you as a "racist" its not your problem its theirs, i find in bloggin there are left and right people who are seriously wanting to talk and willing to engage in disscussion and debate, both sides are valid and have points, i only bother with reasonable people. we have to take a lil on the chin at times hey. Its sad when ideas need legal protection lol it just shows their weakness.
even the pc abc tv had to be open about that one

GIAMAN

My comments are aimed at opening the minds of any reader who sees them concerning the true nature of Islam.
There is a lot of ignorance in our sense of fair play, which blinds us to some very real social dangers.

As for treatment of Muslims already here .. the Charter of Omar is a good place to start, but simply reversing the status of "Muslim" to that of a Dhimmi as they describe us.

There are about 20 restrictions in the Charter. You can do some research yourself about what this would mean. Look up 'Dhimmitude'.

http://www.dhimmitude.org/d_history_dhimmitude.php

This would be a tad radical, but its worth you expoloring to see just how 'they' consider 'we' should be treated under an Islamic Republic.

Immigration would be restricted to only those who fully understand our socio/cultural heritage and are willing to committ to respecting it, with all the restrictions of the Charter of Omar (reversed) explained to them as applicable if they live here. They would need to make written committment to never seek to change our laws in any direction which favored their own religious traditions at the expense of ours. (e.g. "Call to Prayer" from loudspeakers, Mosques or prayer halls built in places where the existing residents don't want them.)
They would NEVER be able to use our legal system to supress and repress our citizens from free speech, or from preventing structures deemed unhelpful to the existing social/cultural fabric)

(Baulkam hills council received over FIVE THOUSAND protest letters about the Islamic prayer hall... the council disaproved of it... yet the legal system TRAMPLED on the whole community)

Citizenship would be based on a "P" plate system, where good conduct is assessed over a long period of time, and 9 points of misconduct would mean loss of citizenship and deportation.

Sounds harsh ? nothing more than a recognition of 'act now or regret later'.

As I expected, those who subscribe to the 'Flint-Stone' dinosaur ideology of a white/anglo/judaeo-christian Australia cannot say how their xenophobic activism is helping anything.

That's because it obviously isn't.

It's interesting how the fundamentalist Christians have allied themselves with the crypto-racists in these threads. A bit reminiscent of Germany in the 1930s, really...

Dear Giaman
It would be nice to see if we can get past the apparent hostility, and make some progress here.

My main problem with the liberal left is best illustrated by an event on the news this morning.

A man in Queensland was just killed by a crocodile which attacked him while canoeing with his wife.

Some time back, the wife was actively campaigning for the protection of Crocodiles.

The rather ironic point of course, is that all the well intentioned sympathy and social compassion on behalf of certain others, will not change a croc from being a croc and given the opportunity, they will consume even those who campaign on their behalf. Yes, this is an oversimplification and does not address the complexity of the issue, but I think you see what I'm driving at.

Little of what we have been saying contributes to better relations between the Islamic community and the rest, I agree. But that is not my goal at least, my solution for better relations is simple. Be kind and helpful on a personal level, treat individuals as you would want them to treat you. There is no need for direct hostility or personal ill will.

I hope you can separate your 'doctrinal' position of PC from the need to responsibly manage social realities as they exist.

The Dutch situation is interesting. They could have avoided the current difficulties with Muslims by simply enforcing their existing arrangements, which were that the guest workers should come for a time, then RETURN home. But they didn't 'want' (key word these days) to return as they knew they should. Now we have the Dutch questioning the whole idea of Multi culturalism. All due to lack of enforcement of existing 'return' policy.

Hope this takes some of the heat out of this discussion.

Without wanting to offend anyone, some of the uneducated, downright foolish positions some posts take, one could easily be driven to murder.......

A quick note regarding the superb title of the article written by Flint. On the Today Tonight program there was a story on the worst restaurant in Australia for hygeine, and it just happened to be an Indian restaurant didn't it? How racist of us to pick on them! These savages would reuse leftovers, wipe up spilt food from the floor, reuse bitten pieces of meat, fungus & mould growing on the spice jars weren't a problem either. Oh, and putting cheap cask wine in expensive bottles, then re corking them to sell.

Now, I believe that as a multicultural nation we have no right to judge other cultures, as the moral relativsm argument states that all cultures are equal. These extreme capitalist notions coming from ethnic restaurants who wish to save the almighty $$$ must be accepted as their culture. For too long now, Asian breadshops have been picked on by health inspectors, not knowing whats going on...being told that we accept their culture yet they get in trouble for preparing food in their traditional cultural way (which means unhygenic).

We Australians often cop it regarding cuisine, that we have bland food or whatever....well, why most of the world's cultures were fine with covering up off meat with strong spices (hence, Indian food), Aussies were too busy inventing a thing called the refrigerator, which allows food to be kept without going off!

Seriously though, unhygenic practices is part of the culture of Asians (and I incoporate middle-eastern, south Asians - Indians, into this category) yet we don't tolerate it. I remember laughing as a news broadcast showed a middle-eastern function in Melbourne the other week, where 100 odd people were hospitalised after eating some middle-eastern dish....

All cultures are not equal.....particularly when it comes to food preperation....especially Asian breadshops...I know, perhaps the roaches, rats, and other animals that attack their premises are racist! Yes thats got to be it!

"Without wanting to offend anyone, some of the uneducated, downright foolish positions some posts take, one could easily be driven to murder......."

An interesting way to begin a comment that ranks with some of the most uneducated, downright foolish posts that I have read in this forum - and that's saying something! While I don't have the violent tendencies that the writer of this comment displays, I am prompted to correct the fallacious content of his post - notably his claim that traditional Aussie tucker is so bland and tasteless because the refrigerator is an Aussie invention.

What rot. The invention of the first practical refrigerator is usually attributed to Carl Paul Gottfried von Linde, a German engineer who patented his invention with the German Imperial Patent Office in 1877. While this prototype went on to be refined by others, notably in the U.S., there is nothing Australian about its invention or development. Perhaps Benjamin is referring to the evaporative cool safe? Only that idea's been around for thousands of years... and the Chinese, Indians and Egyptians have been cutting and storing ice for thousands of years. Perhaps Benjamin coud visit http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/story057.htm if he doesn't mind the facts getting in the way of a good racist diatribe.

I'm not sure whether rats, mice and cockroaches are capable of racism, but that execrable sentiment is certainly evident in the rantings of some supposedly more evolved residents of this country.

Thanks giaman - I was uncertain as to who invented the fridge - knew it wasn't invented here. But what an absurd thing for Benjamin to say. Food poisoning isn't restricted to Asian cuisine, in fact I would posit, based on personal experience over the years that food poisoning is quite multi-cultural. I got food poisoning from that old Aussie staple 'Chicken Maryland' once. But hey why should Benjamin let logic get in the way of a racist rant.

I agree with Flint that Australians should be asked if Australia should be declared multi-cultural - lets ask the original inhabitants if they would like ALL the immigrants to go back where they came from. This would leave Australia free for all the flora and fauna that evolved here to live in peace. Australia would become the world's largest wildlife park. No instrusive humans to b@**^r up the environment. Flinty is clearly on to something here. And there would be no need for fridges. ;-)

Yes, and I don't suppose we should ponder too closely the derivation of the term 'maggot bag' for our meat pies either, I guess!

I probably shouldn't supply this idiotic thread with any more oxygen, but a story from the Gold Coast this week leaps to mind:

"HYGIENE charges against a Gold Coast restaurateur were upheld yesterday after a magistrate said he was surprised the rodents which infested the kitchen didn't flee in disgust.

Well, the live ones anyway.

Broadbeach eatery Jo's Brasserie, owned by fallen tycoon Theo Morris, was convicted of gross health breaches in May after council inspectors found a dead rat had been left on the kitchen floor and painted over with thick red paint.

They also found other rodents (dead and alive), a massive fungus crawling with cockroaches and heavily rusted stoves and food preparation areas." (full story at http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16285543-3102,00.html)

I may be wrong, but I don't think old white shoe Theo is any kind of Asian...

I think we are digressing badly here.. 'relative hygiene merrits'.... a bit off topic I reckon.

We should stick to the issues of cultural compatability, social cohesian and political stability.

Giaman, I don't think this is the place to observe specific measurable 'help' from our posts. Unless we see suddenly that Trinity or yourself for example declares a new found alleigance to Christ.

I hope that people who read this forum are those with some political insight and clout, and are open to persuasion of well founded argument.

The rather small minded 'Your a racist' attacks and counter attacks are quite time wasting.

Outlining specific impacts on our nation in terms of the 3 main points I mentioned above, should help inform observers that people are concerned about them. If this translates into further enquiry and action I would applaude.

Another benefit of venting one's spleen here, is probably the cathartic aspect. Better to vent here than rage against some happless individual who 'looks different'.

In spite of the variety and intensity of opinion here, it is indeed a valuable opportunity for all of us to be exposed to different viewpoints, and I'm sure that we all actually reflect on such encounters.

So, to all those who attack my views..(and me in some cases) I re-itterate my welcome of such things, and pray we will all reach greater degree of mutual understanding, and if possible respect.

Boaz_David - it is not ALL about you. I was responding to the absurdly racist post by Benjamin with some facetiousness of my own.

However, answer me this (I acknowledge this is completely off topic) but how would a sudden "alleigance to Christ" change the timbre of our posts? No on second thought - don't answer. I am still a vital valid human being regardless of my religious beliefs.

Anyway back to the topic - kind of. If I base some of the arguments of why multiculturalism doesn't work as posited by many on this thread, I find that men and women should be segregated too. This would eliminate rapes, domestic violence, insults based on appearance - poor behaviour that both men and women engage in to the detriment of the other. And look how different we are - women wearing clothes very different to men (most of the time). Different physiologies, different ways of viewing the world, different priorities - even wars have started because of male/female conflict. Clearly this male female thing just isn't working and men should go back to Mars and women should return to Venus.

To the Food Critics,

Culteral eating practices are different, Last year SA, Victoria, legislated against the consumption of cat and dog meat. This is a horrendus practice.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/28/1077677005837.html?oneclick=true

Also we are deeply concerned for the sheep transported by sea to the middle east, a large aspect of the worry is the complete lack of Animal Welfare Laws in other some non western cultures, let alone the obcenity of unmonitered Halal slaugher (slow bleed). (It is hoped we will eventully slaughter the sheep here in Australia where there are much higher standerds, we can at least stun the poor animals unconcioness before their throat is slit and the are beld slowly to death Halal style)

As we did drift on the the subject of multiculteral cuisine, we have to accept other cultures for what they are, these practices are cruel. We must lobby against anything below our standerds here in the West.

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."
- Gandhi 1869-1948

Meredith, you make a good point.

>>"Last year SA, Victoria, legislated against the consumption of cat and dog meat. This is a horrendus practice."<<

Absolutely. The practice of legislating against perfectly nutritious foodstuffs is clearly "horrendus", and should be stamped out forthwith.

This is "spare the fluffy seal cub" argument. Either we as a society condone the eating of animals or we don't. Being selective about which creatures we murder for food and which we don't seems just a trifle inconsistent.

Ghandi was of course a vegetarian - by conscious choice, not through religious or cultural obligation. So choosing the quote...

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

...was probably not a great idea, since his judgement on the issue undoubtedly includes nations whose population kills animals for food.

That's us, by the way.

hi P

im a vego myself, for moral reasons... the reason to criminialize the eating of cats and dogs is that they will loose their good legal status as companion animals and become reclassified as live stock, once that happens they will have the legal rights of cows n sheep which is basically nil.

good food well western meat eaters basically eat vegetarian animals, cats n dogs are carnivores..

i am fully aware we cant turn the world let alont the country vego,
i got the chance to bring up the animal cruelty as the string turned to food debates, culteral difference is an issue in Animal area. I agree with u tho its a bit off topic.
more my point was there is reason to legislate /fight against practices we find wrong,

Europe is 25 yrs ahead of us with MC, there are stonings there now, surely would you lobby against that?

TRINITY...... Its not all about me ?...huh ? I'm an only child you know :)

Use the name of the person ur post is aimed at next time pls.

I will answer your question. Actually it was more rhetorical than anything. I mean, I'd rejoice of course, but I just used that as an example of 'change' in response to yours saying 'How are we helping, contributing to better relations and a safer situation'. I wasn't suggesting your views are of less value because of any rightly or wrongly perceived spiritual status.

Interestingly, one of my former lecturers has come down quite firmly on positions pretty much like yours and Xena's. (The assylum seeker/gay areas) and I wrote to him about his understanding of Romans 1, criticizing his interpretation. (He's a Phd by the way)
He replied, with appreciation that my letter was not a 'hate' mail.
There is not much to be gained by hate, and disagreement does not mean hate.

The intense emotiveness of some posters is indicative of the need to seriously address things in the bud, with firm policy, before they lead to outright street confrontations.

We can't stop people feeling hostility to perceived threats, but we should do all within our means to create a framework which minimizes those feelings, by reducing the source.

The media is as much to blame as anything. We've covered the ABC and bias, but in another thread, the 'Stoning the Aussi Mossie' "Today Tonight" is shown to be exacerbating by selection/omission/emphasis.

Irfan makes a lot of sense in much of what he says, but having searched him I found he is an adherant of a Sufi group, which explains A LOT about why he seems more benign and friendly than some of the radicals. Sufi's are more interested in the love of God, and the mystical relationship, than the legal/sharia side of things.

Keep up the interaction.
Cheers

Boaz, you have mentioned "policy" a couple of times as a cure for this multicultural bug you believe we have caught.

"indicative of the need to seriously address things in the bud, with firm policy"

"we should be looking at the issue of policy based approaches to solving many of these complex social issues"

I realize that this particular discussion is about foreign cuisine and its deleterious effects on our society, but since you raise the topic here could you give your views on what these policies might be and how they might work?

My concerns are simple.

1. If we close our doors to foreigners, we would be faced with an immediate decision on what constitutes a foreigner.

2. If we decide we should deport all troublemakers, we would be faced with the task to decide what constitutes troublemaking.

3. If we decide that Australia should become monocultural, we would have to agree on what exactly that culture should look like.

It is so terribly easy to pontificate about Australia, and what it means to be Austrayan, and how people who don't toe the line should go find somewhere else - talkback radio is full of "ordinary" Austrayans telling us how we should live. Far more difficult is getting the law and the culture aligned to put it into practice - whatever "it" turns out to be.

Did you check out Mosley's "My Life", by the way? You will find that many, many of these arguments have been aired before, most recently in 1930s Europe. Those who promoted these views were highly intelligent, very articulate and persuasive people - far more so than the Flints and Stones of our small world.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" George Santayana, The Life of Reason 1905

Oh Pericles, why didn't I pick up on that before "Flints and Stones". Having a great time of mirth. I mean; dinosaurs etc etc... sorry gettin a little carried away here.

It does appear that we are doomed to repeat history again and again . The issues you raised are way pertinent.

Who does decide what our culture is, who does decide what a foreigner is. I'm part Italian/Irish/French, but I was born here. So am I foreign because my parents were not born here? Where to draw the line indeed. If I disagree with the current gov.(which I do) should I be deported? Given the level of vitriol unleashed by those who fear anyone remotely different I sense that there is something to be gained from promoting fear and loathing. Is it about power?

Pericles, excellent post. (Xena.. also very useful)

This in fact 'is' the challenge. Defining 'Australian' culture.
I did some reading of the history of Annangrove (the Baulkam hills prayer centre matter) and its quite illuminating to see the names and backgrounds. All those places on the Windsor Road, which I used to traverse just about every weekend. They all have a history and families and 'old country'ness about them.

Without trying to answer in full all the points you raised, as the word limit won't allow.

I feel it should be realistic, compassionate, inclusive as far as practical. But my main guiding criteria would indeed be 'Judao Christian/Anglo European' in flavor.
I certainly don't as some seem to think advocate 'white' as a criteria, I would be most happy to accomodate 'black' folk of a similar outlook. Having lived with, married into and moved among another (Indigenous) race of Borneo, my respect and love is unbounded concerning race. (religion/ideologies are a different matter)

I would hope that civics classes/social studies could be a useful tool in undemonizing 'race' and promoting harmonious co-habitation, and ways of achieving such a goal would be extensive contact with organizations like Rotary/Lions/Churches etc, with specific action plans to extend our interaction with non traditional social circles.

In all of this, I still believe that it is very much in the interests of the country, to maintain strict control over the numbers, ethnicity, religion, even location if possible, of migrants such that the Anglo/Scottish/Irish/Euro (in that order too possibly) flavor of the racial mix was not upset too much, in terms of cohesian, compatability and stability.

People only react badly, to other races (apart from truly bigoted people) when they see trends which they percieve as threat, or out of control, when they are confronted with the existing idea that they were the 'majority' yet they are powerless to have any input or control over events which they perceive will disadvanage them.

Government should be able to act responsibly and benevolently even if it reflects a majority ethno/religious tradition. (as a hedge against extremist kneejerk reaction)

My post was as much about "how", Boaz, as about "what".

Even assuming we could agree on "what" our culture might be, how do you intend we should proceed to implement the mechanisms necessary to bring about your new society of like-minded folk?

Explain to me the process.

What would you do about people who, you decide, don't fit in with your ideals? Would you round them up and force them onto an outbound plane? Where would you send them? Would you use the armed forces? The police? Would you need the agreement of the governments on the other end of that journey?

How would you handle the task of tracking down those people that evaded capture? Would you hunt them down? If they resisted, would you shoot them?

Boaz, what I'm trying to say here is that your Utopian dream of a "Judao Christian/Anglo European" society is just that: a dream. All the burblings of all the Stones and Flints in all Australia cannot achieve anything - anything at all - except inflame tensions between different sections of society.

I can only concur with Pericles here - particularly his final para. Those who subscribe to the 'Flint-Stone' dinosaur ideology (that closely resembles the old White Australia policy) and exhort us in increasingly obdurate, if not downright offensive, terms to defend our 'culture' against the supposed Multicultural/Muslim menace, are actually much more of a threat to social cohesion than a few loony imams and their marginalised followers.

Pericles

Firstly..some housekeeping. Have you been receiving my emails from time to time ?

In my last, I requested you narrow the Mosley field a bit to something which shows the essence of the ideas you said “Have been tried before” in reference to him. I can’t wade through a ‘life’ just to find where they are mate.
What I read of his speeches, is indeed impressive, I can see why he scratched where people itched.

As to what would I do with those already here who don’t fit the neat profile of “acceptability”. (not quite the right question actually) Well, perhaps a read of the parable of the Good Samaritan is the best answer. Compassionate hearts, and not to have a “pass/fail” approach.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&version=31

The shaping of a definition of ‘Australian’ culture should not and could not be such a rigid thing as to fall purely on racial/color lines- it has to include our indigenous first people in it.
I hope that a key factor in a tying down of Aussie culture, would include some kind of reconciliatory aspects in regard to the indigenous.

The determining of a ‘prevailing’ cultural momentum, is not an impossible task. It would have to entail checks and balances to avoid a fascist or socialist outcome.

“HOW” ? research/education ! (See line 9 in previous post) Anthropologists, and historians, sociologists and theologians are trained in these matters. It might surprise you that I include Theologians, but knowing the way many secular trained proffessionals regard anything about ‘God’ they would be needed to counter any secular bigotry such as in the example below

I’ve often heard it said “There are no PEER REVIEWED examples of biologists/scientists supporting ‘Creation’” and one reason for this is pure bigotry, here is an example.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/18/AR2005081801680.html

GIAMAN.. have a holiday :) u need it u might be able to manage a smile when you return.
Are you actually claiming that to tighten up an understanding of Aussie culture is a threat to social harmony ? I sure hope not. How could it be ?

Boaz, with the greatest respect, you have avoided addressing any of the points I raised. This is not a trivial issue, lives are at risk here, and the situation cries out for clarity, practicality and above all honesty. None of which is displayed in your post.

The Flints and the Stones of our small corner of the world are advocating the cleansing of our society of people whom they dislike. They couch this dislike in self-righteous terms, basically describing the folk as un-Australian, lacking the Australian culture and out of step with the Australian way of life.

For clarity's sake, I am asking that someone defines to me what this consists of, in terms that can be understood - not by a crowd on a street corner, or the voice of talk-back radio, but in a court of law.

For practicality's sake, I am asking how, exactly, would our government go about implementing such policies if they were to be introduced and ratified. After all, this is a democracy, and I would expect to be consulted at the ballot box on such a major restructuring of our liberties in this country.

For honesty's sake, I am asking that you don't hide behind parables, or refer to articles on intelligent design, but stick to the question - and by "you", I mean the entire team of Flints and Stones who believe we can simply generalize our way out of this mess. It easy to stand on a soap-box and pontificate about how the world should be. But we deserve honesty when it comes to turning their wish-list into some form of reality.

My reference to Mosley was to illustrate how easy it is for intelligent people to press the racist button when the population at large feels itself under threat. The problem in the thirties was unemployment, and the button pressed was the Jews. The problem today is terrorism, and the button being pressed is Islam. In neither case is the target anything more than a rallying cry for bigotry.

Pericles

Your a worry, you seem to have ignored my question about my emails.. a much better place for me to put my UNrestricted wordlimit views on such things where I can use more than 350 words.

Sooo.. have my emails been REACHING you.... ? sorry for the shout, but I’ve asked at least twice.

LINE 9 of the previous post. Did u read it ?

1/ RESEARCH Australian culture is ‘defined’

2/ EDUCATION Curriculum changes introduced and if needed new subjects or chunks of existing subjects which will convey the values, history and social structure of the so defined culture.
The introduction of teaching of our culture in all religious schools, by acredited people.(compulsory) (applies to Christian schools also, but would not be a problem for us as we would have some input to the definition)

3/ IMMIGRATION. Laws would be introduced which ascribe points to people based on a number of specific criteria, related to social cohesian, cultural compatability, and political stability.

4/ LEGAL. The removal of any law which specifically favors religious groups who hold to teaching not considered compatable with our values or culture. (as defined in point 1)
(stamp duty, burial, free speech)

All of the above in the framework of attitude epitomized in the parable which I referred your attention to. (A story is much better than a monologue)

In summary I’m basically saying, “we” decide issues relating to our country, not the UN or any other body. The world is moving in this direction these days. The idealism of the UN was washed down the international toilet as it demonstrated impotent supervision of various genocides, and showed how particular countries can and will seek to undermine its independance in their own interests, including minority lobby groups in the ‘sexual orientation’ field.

Hope to see u on the new threads..exciting stuff

Boaz

>>Sooo.. have my emails been REACHING you.... ?<<

No.

>>RESEARCH Australian culture is ‘defined’<<

How do you propose this should come about? Who should be in the list of "[a]nthropologists, and historians, sociologists and theologians" you talk about? How many should there be? Who gives them authority? Are they elected by the people or chosen by politicians? What happens to their conclusions - do we get to vote on them?

>>EDUCATION Curriculum changes introduced and if needed new subjects<<

Once again, who is going to formulate these changes, who is going to ratify them, will the Australian people get to vote on the changes etc.? Is a picture emerging here?

>>IMMIGRATION. Laws would be introduced which ascribe points to people based on a number of specific criteria, related to social cohesian, cultural compatability, and political stability<<

And the measurements of these "qualities" will be?

>>LEGAL. The removal of any law which specifically favors religious groups...<<

I notice that you use the US spelling of "favor" - are you lifting this from one of those fundamentalist web sites, by any chance?

Boaz, what is needed is clarity, not waffle, and you are simply waffling.

PERICLES

Firstly, re emails.. I used the reply address on the one you sent to me before.. mind sharing your new one ? ==> jdrmot@tpg.com.au

Secondly.. spelling ? Fundy sites ? no, I’m just a bad speller.. too much time in machine shop practice at Aspendale tech and our English teacher hated me and I him.

-Posts are original

You’re asking me to ACtually develop policy. (cringe)

Your questions are all very fair, but better put as a submission to a working group on such a topic.

The idea of the selection criteria for such a body is clearly something which would be the subject of considerable debate and the target of interest groups.

I think Government should be pro-active on this, and raise some issues for debate, with terms of reference which can be tossed around the parliament, the media, fine tuned, and as much of a consensus achieved as possible. Would probably take a year to knock into shape.
A Bipartisan approach should be taken.

As long as specific ‘race’ or ‘denominational’ issues were not pushed too hard, a broad consensus should be achievable.

So, perhaps Submission/terms of reference/working group/debate/narrowing/selection ?

It would not matter ‘who’ was selected for such roles, they would by default become the target of smear campaigns by disgruntled groups who feel disenfranchised by it.

The first step in something like this is to have the idea floated, in broad terms.

You may be quite correct in assessing such a thing as a ‘dream’ –be that as it may, my world would not collapse if it did not get up :) My citizenship is not of ‘this’ world... remember ?

While recognizing the authorities as ‘God given’, (Romans 13) and the responsibilities of earthly citizenship, my ultimate hope, is in Christ and His kingdom, both for the here and now, and the there and then.

In the meantime, I think its quite democratically appropriate to participate meaningfully in shaping the community of which I am a part. So, I’ve emailed Coalition and Labor about this.

Did you hear BrendanNelsons speech today ? “VALUES”

Boaz

>>You’re asking me to ACtually develop policy. (cringe)<<

[patiently] No, I am not asking you to develop policy, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with you sending your views to politicians, short of spamming senators a la GetUp.

My suggestion is that you think through the practicalities of what you are suggesting, and what Messrs. Flint and Stone are agitating for. What you propose is certain to be divisive, disruptive and to cause a distinct increase in racist activity in the community.

Let's imagine for a moment that you have put together your proposals, and are also in the position of being able to put them into practice. What would happen?

The first thing you would have to face is that not everyone shares your rosy-hued idealism that we can all live together in religious harmony. You may have noticed this from some of the remarks that follow your posts - none says "aha, Boaz, you have shown me the light", some say "Yay Boaz, you tell 'em" but others say "Boaz, that's a crock." I can see this being representative of the public at large, which would suggest some resistance to your proposals. My question remains: what would you do?

How would you stop those people who agree with you from taking the law into their own hands, and "implementing" your policies of ridding our society of people whose views you disagree with, through violence? That is what happened in Europe - particularly in Germany, but also in the East End of London - when people thought that their political leaders had given them some form of permission to beat up the Jews.

Getting the picture?

Did anyone watch Andrew Denton's Enough Rope on Monday night? Where he had Lea Purcell, indigenous artist/actor on spilling her guts rather eloquently about how her and her family had been treated, followed by a typical Islamic "moderate" husband and wife and how they are treated on an everyday basis. I think, before we decide on who should come in/have legal status, we should decide what behaviour by us "bona-fide Austrayans" they should be subject to. I was very ashamed that both parties had been subject to racial abuse and contempt and I am very much aware it happens.

I agree with Boaz when he says that people do feel threatened when it's a majority thing they perceive. There has always been a measure of hostility from the groups that are already here to the newcomers. But in the past, the governments have supported the groups that seek to pursue a better life here.

This govt sees a political advantage in exploiting and shaping prejudices and the obvious outcome of that is a fundamental shift away from the position of all political persuasions that in the past resulted in new cultural groups being integrated into the Australian way of life - and the economy! and generally accepted by a country that was able to hold up to the whole world how a multicultural society could work. This is going down the gurgler.

For multiculturalism to work and flourish properly, it needs tolerance and understanding of other cultures and a good long look at our attitudes (and our Govt's). I grew up in a blithely patronising, racist, classist family (don't ask me why, we were hardly the creme de la creme of the society we lived in) and it took me a long time to learn to think outside the safe little white-bre(a)d surburban square. Which is not where I ever want to be again.

AAah... Pericles...

policies agreed to.... implement..what would happen ?

Firstly, I believe in evolution rather than revolution when it comes to social change.

Secondly, if you think I'm out to 'get rid of' those who don't fit the mould, you haven't been reading my posts.

I am more inclined to 'prevent the arrival of' those who, after careful scrutiny on the basis of a number of criteria we develop, than I am in 'laying waste and ridding the countryside of every towell head as some might derogatorily describe them.

If change is NOT introduced in a noticable but controlled manner, thats' when people will feel 'nothing is being done' and it could trigger the kind of vigilante activity u referred to.

My 'goals' are already partially fulfilled today with Brendan Nelsons speech about 'Australian values in education' one of which is 'FREEDOM' and if I had anything to do with the teaching of that, I' place extreme emphasis on the freedom to CHANGE one's religion if they desire.

Slight digression here..I just bought a DVD a cheapie, and the salesman's father has an automotive parts factory making body parts for a major manufacturer. He employed 15 Somalies, who worked out that if they got the quota out by friday it was ok, but if they were slow, they had to do overtime and that mean't more $$. So they took this idea further and SABOTAGED the equipment.. verified by video camera's installed.
The salesman and I were talking about the issue in this thread, and that indcident just shows how 'un-australian' some foreigners can be.

Unfair dismissal laws meant very costly process to get rid of the ring leaders. I can't imagine a typical aussie worker with that mentality or value -never saw anything like it in 9yrs looking after a factory.. so.. civics classes.

If this seems a bit rambling...I'm tired.

DI... nice post :)

Di,

Yes, I watched Andrew Denton's Enough Rope on Monday night, also ABC Lateline which followed.

When Andrew asked the 'moderate' Islamic couple whether he was 'infidel', I wished the couple had been honest and told Andrew yes he was indeed, and then proceeded to refute Islam teaching on hatred towards non-believers. What hope is there when 'moderates' can't be honest with themselves and lied on TV. And I know they lied.

We need a lot more Muslims the like of Irshad Manji, the author of "The Trouble with Islam Today" (on ABC Lateline). I consider her a genuine moderate, one who bravely confronts the evil of Islam. One whom I respect.

The Islamic couple whom Andrew interviewed may be 'moderates', but they are also 'fundamentalist' in a lot of ways.

Be warned- Much deception lies behind nice smiles of such 'moderates'. They are afterall the all-obedient vessel of the Islam religion.

Very cynical Mr Tan. I think we have to remember that the reds are not under our beds.

What does a moderate Catholic, Presbyterian, Anglican, Lutheran or for that mater Buddhist look like?

May I suggest we evacuate Norfolk Island, make David Flint its President and ship all his followers there to live with him?

My guess is that it wouldn't be long before he declares a group of people as unpatriotic and unwanted - certainly not up to his impeccable upper class tastes.

It’s interesting to note that Flint wouldn’t go out of his way to mix with the same people who enthusiastically support his crappy views of the world around us. I sense he would think they would not be educated enough for his liking. Only the pretentiously sophisticated xenophobes would do.

Does anyone know what New Zealand's policy is on immigration/multiculturalism? I'm curious

Yes Rainier, I agree Fred Flintstone is in a class of his own (and I use that term loosely). A rather odious way of looking at society has he. What quals has he to pontificate on who should be allowed to populate and participate in Aust society, whilst he is such an import himself? (That is so not an Aussie accent he pretentiously adopts). Barney Rubble was always much more on the ball. But no island, least of all Aust, deserves such a narrow minded view he portrays, even the events of the last few weeks has him dated back to Hanna Barbera. An open mind is much more valuable than an open mouth, depending on who's thinking and who's spouting forth and being published

The point that David and so many others are trying to make is that Australians are completely marginalised when it comes to national policy on something so momentous and idealistic as 'multiculturalism'. They are pointing out that we the people have never been asked if we wanted to become a multicultural society in the first place. We were were never asked if we wanted to see waves of immigrants being told they do not have to ' . . . give up anything of their own culture up by moving to Australia'.

Really, is that just not too impractical to be true to be even considered sensible in the 21 st Century? What do other Australians think or about this? How is democracy served when we are marginalised on a subject that a) is ideologically driven and b) effects every one of us? Also, from the perspective of Australians already here, if migrants want to remain, say, Chinese then it would seem the most sensible solution would be to have never left there in the first place! How beneficial is multiculturalism to Australians? Could anyone actually point out a solid 'plus' other than the ready availability of fine ethnic food? If national policy is aimed at putting a Chinese takeaway in every Australian suburb then I think we the taxpayer are getting something decidedly less than value for money!

The very words used by the Howard Government to sum up its own 'successful' 'multiculuralism' are empty; 'Unity through Diversity' and 'Tolerance - Our New Tradition'. What do they mean? As far as I know a car arriving at an intersection can not turn both right and left - can it? No one - and no group of people - can move both up and down simultaneously, can they? As for tolerance being a 'new tradion', (what is this - oxymoron week?) what then were we before this? Hopelessly intolerant? Of what? Of who? How and why did this change? Where did the 'intolerance' disappear to? Where and when does 'tolerance of other cultures' become doormat, and then toilet seat?