These models imply that eating meat vs grain is a direct trade off when this is not the case. Sure grazing animals have a low output and high volume input but a switch from eating meat will not lower the footprint. Cattle and sheep generally graze land that is not cultivated. Hence the distinction between grazing land and cropping land. And changes between the two, and changes in footprint area, have nothing to do with sustainability.

If all the world went vegetarian there would need to be a massive increase in the area of crops onto land that is not, currently, under regular cropping. And that land is not cropped regularly at present because it is not suitable for it.

Contrary to the standard green illogic, most of the worlds meat does not come from grain fed animals. So there is not a lot of room for the much claimed efficiency gains from humans moving down the food chain to a predominantly grain based diet.

And even when animals are grain fed it is only for a few months of fattening prior to slaughter. They spend most of their life, and acquire most of their body mass, eating grass. We keep them doing this because they are more efficient at converting grass to protein than humans are. They also store this protein (on their body)in a form that minimises loss from fungus, soaking, pests etc.

So when the gullible embark on crusades to reduce the footprint of humans they are also calling for a level of concentration of human activity that has never been tested on a macro scale and risking levels of environmental impact that we know to be far from sustainable.

And as for your sermonising on the rudiments of forest ecology, please let me know when you have progressed more than 10% up the learning curve

I hope that even Perseus will agree that the human race cannot keep increasing its consumtion of the natural resources of the planet, without arriving at the day when there are no more resources to consume.
Why just accept that there will inevitably be a last day and carry on with our present system of continuous growth in consumption?
As the only reasoning species on the planet, why not use that facility for something more worthwhile than devising more technologically advanced ways of killing others?

Peace

I have always believed that we waste our ingenuity and intelligence on the most absurd (stock market) and dangerous (war toys) pursuits.

If we could just get off the power trip use our abilities towards something worthy - like getting along with each other.

I am facing some lean times again - I'm not very happy about it but at least I have learnt how to survive. My latest challenge is simply the result of someones behaviour who likes to be in total control and has more power than I.

I am going to have to battle very hard just to hold on to my version of the Australian dream (a very modest home in the hills outside a major city). And I feel I'm getting a bit old for another struggle - but that's life isn't it. Things don't stop just because we'd like them to remain just the way they are. At least my internet account is currently paid up - so I'll have more time for this forum. But if things get tougher - I know how to start cutting costs.

To me poverty is not having enough to eat, holes in your shoes and wondering if you will be able to sleep somewhere safe and warm.

Trinity “I have always believed that we waste our ingenuity and intelligence on the most absurd (stock market) and dangerous (war toys) pursuits.

If we could just get off the power trip use our abilities towards something worthy - like getting along with each other……”

Regarding “War toys” you may have a point.

However, the origin and nature of joint stock companies, the sort in which "shares" are traded in the “stock market”, would suggest you either have no idea “why” a company, with ownership represented by shares, should exist nor the benefits which derive from such a form of incorporation.

Certainly if your worthy cause “getting along with each other” were to be seen as an “ideal”, the very nature of ownership in joint stock companies through shares subscription, would be a glowing example of its success in a practical and socially beneficial manner.

Your suggesting to being a “waste of ingenuity” suggests a complete absence of understanding to the history, workings, nature, regulation and benefits of the above.

I kindly suggest you keep to what you know and avoid that which is beyond your reason.

You may think that poverty is merely a physical issue – let me assure you your last post shows it to apply equally to intellectual pursuits and based on the middle of your post “am going to have to battle very hard just to hold on to my version of the Australian dream”), I would suggest, a capacity to plan for ones own personal circumstances,

Col - you know nothing of my circumstances, I suggest your arrogance is only succeeded by your complete ignorance. Keep to what you know - which I believe is the life and times of Maggie Thatcher and very little else.

Trinity – I quoted what you said from your own post. Suggesting “I know little about your circumstances - subject to what you have declared” would be a more accurate statement.
As for my “arrogance” if you feel like that, I suggest making posting comments about the workings of the stock market and joint stock companies where you, clearly, do not have a clue about their history, structure, legal status or social benefit – and presume that in your ignorance, they are a – I quote you – “the most absurd (stock market)” is the height of arrogance and ignorance all rolled into one.

I further suggest if you do not wish for people to comment on your circumstances – again

I quote from your post –

“I am facing some lean times again …... My latest challenge is simply the result of someones behaviour who likes to be in total control and has more power than I.

I am going to have to battle very hard just to hold on to my version of the Australian dream …And I feel I'm getting a bit old for another struggle….. Things don't stop just because we'd like them to ….. At least my internet account is currently paid up - so I'll have more time for this forum. But if things get tougher - I know how to start cutting costs.”

End Quote

Do not bother to post details of those same circumstances here.

Unlike you (and your circumstances), I have a broad interest and understanding across many areas of human endeavour, even beyond Dearest Margaret Thatcher. I will not bewilder you with any list – but leave you assured – it extends well beyond your comprehension and understanding, if your comments about the “stock” exchange/market are anything to go by.

Since you like them so, another Margaret Quote –“ Success is having a flair for the thing that you are doing; knowing that is not enough, that you have got to have hard work and a sense of purpose.”
– nice, it illustrates the patent design fault of socialism.