Excellent article John! Exactly what Australia needs to do to - protect what we have here now and stop any more immigration without much stricter controls.

I am really concerned with the Left in this country who, as you said, will argue that multi-culturalism is working and that we should keep on funding anything that promotes it. They really have missed the point - Australia does not want people living here who don't accept Australia's way of life, can't speak at least some understandable English, don't want to integrate with us, wish to segregate themselves in their own ghettos and preach hatred of our dominant culture etc

Essentially, if people don't come here and accept and integrate into Australian society - accepting our Christian heritage, rule of law, democratic system, language and customs - then they are not welcome in my view.

Just look at Sheik Muhammed Omran, who preaches division and claims that Osama Bin Laden is a good man (see Lateline transcript, 25/7) and blames the war in Iraq for terrorism (see 60 Minutes transcript 24/7)!! Quite frankly, if I were immigration minister I would have him and quite a number of others deported and I certainly would not be allowing any more Islamic immigration until strict criteria, such as those which you advocate in your article, were put in used to determine people who will accept and integrate into Australian culture.

Whilst I respect the intellect and career of John Stone I have to disagee with his proposition that multiculturalism has been a failure and should be halted. To me Mr Stone sounds like the late Enoch Powell MP in Britain during the 1960's. Ranting's which polarised people and demonised minority groups with different skin colors and cultures; causing unnessary friction and division in the community. Populations have been on the move for centuries; why even Captain Cook was a migrant of sorts, although I don't think he turned up with papers requesting permanent residency from the Aboriginal population. Similarly many of the critics of multicultural policies have no hesistation visiting China town or Lygon Street in Carlton and enjoying a lasagne or a latte. Stopping muslims migrating is no gaurantee to prevent terrorism. However the de-occupation of middle east countries, attacking world poverty, trade policies which prevent both the real and perceived dominance and exploitation by the west in my view have the best chance of success to dim the flames of terrorism.
Terrorism can be carry out by anyone and is not religion specific behaviour. Examples such as the unibombers in America, IRA et al in Ireland. What governments can do is address some of the more obvious causes such as those mentioned above more vigorously.

John... that took courage, well done.
Identifying specific groups of people or ideologies and recognizing the dangers of inviting them to your doorstep, is as "racist" as telling Trout Fishermen that they are racist for not wanting European carp to come to our waterways.

Acknowledging that:

"achieve the dictatorship of the proletariat by any means" (Marxism)or
"eliminate the 'Jewish problem' by a final solution" (Nazism)
or
"The world and all that is in it, belongs to Allah and his Apostle"(Islam)

-are dangerous ideas is not 'racism'.

The hard core followers of any idea, are directly connected to the foundation documents/texts/founder of that idea or movement. This applies as much to Christians, Buddhists, Hindus as it does to any other movement.

The critical goal, is to identify dangers in the foundation documents/texts and founder of any idea or movement.

As a Christian (conservative evangelical) I am most happy for my own views to be compared with those expressed by Jesus. I also defy anyone to find in the life and teaching of Christ, anything suggestive of the types of historical behavior commonly said to be 'Christian' (crusades blah blah). The one theme which peremeates our Lords words and work, is self sacrifice.

Aramis, when Enoch powell was spouting his fury, as far as I know their had not been a 911 or a determined attack on British Society as we have just witnessed. But does it show he was just before his time ?

We need to distinguish between responsible Social policy and personal attitudes. A Christian might be able to love a Muslim on a one to one basis, but this does not blind him to the dangers of a large Islamic population which will seek to subjugate and humilate and specially tax him as a 'Dhimmi'.

The greatest danger we face today, is not the re structuring of social policy, which should be a reasonably emotion-less exercise, but it is the knee jerk volatile and often violent reaction of the man in the street who feels powerless. That is the kind of reaction which saw the Doncaster mosque firebombed

Mr Stone inveighs against "official multiculturalism", but if the first/best example he can come up with is the SBS, I'm still at a loss to understand what we are supposed to be afraid of here.

His remedies are pretty vague too.

Abolishing the SBS simply deprives us of an alternative to the commercial TV stations, which is good news for the Kerries but pretty shoddy for the rest of us.

Halting Muslim immigration is simply a knee-jerk reaction, which would exacerbate the existing us-and-them to a potentially dangerous level. To work effectively, it would need to be coupled with the re-export of those already here, which would put us on a level with the average despot.

His three proposals for tweaking citizenship requirements are pretty meaningless in this context - it is difficult to work out how they would have any impact unless (see above) you only allow citizens the right to stay, and re-export the rest.

And the sixth - only allow people in who speak English - is completely laughable. What language did the British bombers speak, John?

The context - "we must accept that we are at war and start behaving accordingly" - is everything here.

Mr Stone protests that his proposals are not "racist", but "cultural", but it is disingenuous of him to use the words "we are at war" and not believe it will stir up a racist response.

But the most unfortunate aspect of this is that John Stone is an educated and relatively well-known commentator. Having applied his substantial intellect to the problem, he comes away with so little of relevance, and so much that relies on emotive reaction and gut-response from people who prefer not to think for themselves. This is an enormous shame, and is an indicator of either i) the problem is indeed intractable or ii) that he is quite deliberately stirring up pseudo-nationalist sentiment in the cause of ultra-right-wing conservatism.

Blaming multiculturalism for the terrorist attacks, and arguing for policies that would see Australia retract from any meaningful dialogue with a globalised world, is a counter productive extension of the trends that lead to terrorism in the first place.

Understandably, many people across many nations have become uneasy about the rate of cultural change in a globalised society. In the West we see that ommunication and trade have become fluid, Asian economies are on the rise, Judaeo Christianity's monopoly on values is on the decline (I blame Paris Hilton) and we are regularly confronted with different cultures and ways of doing things. Rather than focusing on our common humanity, our leaders have reacted to this unease with cheap opportunism, xenophobia, scapegoating of local minorities and a general emphasis on why difference is something to fear. Our fear keeps us uneasy and helps them get re-elected (children overboard).

As leaders they should be encouraging us to focus on the benefits of different cultural perspectives, and the fact that when it comes down it, our core values (ie a desire for stability and mutual relationships of care and respect with others in our communities) are very similar. This is multiculturalism.

Encouraging stereotyping of other groups that you can't be bothered trying to understand, setting close minded emotional and structural boundaries about whose in and who's out only exacerbates conflict in the community. Ironically it actually increases the likelihood of terrorism, as groups that are already disaffected may start to become radicalised. This kind of 'race to the bottom' (shoot to kill policies, regressive immigration etc) is just what the terrorists want. They are people who have given up on legitimate political ways of effecting change and just act out aggression. If they have their way people will stop trying to understand each other, pick a side and start killing each other. I believe attacks on multiculturalism like this article actually promote this kind of aggressive mentality.

Are we so hopeless as to play into the terrorists hands?

Pericles,
there are elements of truth in your comments, as would always be the case with something so flexible and nebulous as culture etc.
It seems to me that John is actually looking for answers, which may not be the cuppa of everyone.

I disagree that we have to 'export' the existing muslim population, I feel limiting immigration would be a sufficient measure.

As for John's 'right wing' etc connection, supposed or real, well he/they have as much right in this 'multi-cultural' society to influence the structure as those who would seek to swing it in a different direction.

Now, one out of left field, I wish they have the same passion to 'limit the immigration' of Chinese manufactured goods :)
But thats another thread.

I can't wait till our dear friends of the green/left arrive- we will see huge increase in the statistical occurence of 'racist' 'intolerance' 'narrow minded' and similar adjectives which seem to defy connection to the subject matter usually, but give them a 'I'm here and I matter' kind of buzz.

Oh.. not to forget that as of today, all of we Christians who post here, are now:

-British Israelite believers (huh ?)
-All (including Philo who is Orthodox) affiliated with the 'Christian Identity' group of the USA.
-Anti Semitic
-Intolerant.
-Vicious
-BAD Christians. (refer user manual)
-Most likely have a cache of M16's under our beds (militia)
-More than likely white supremacists.
-Most likely will deny our connections. (This is the 'lock' on the pen the author of the post has placed us in)
-Right wing (I detest right wing politics)

Its so laughable to be good sitcom material :) Pity it comes from the hand of people who appear to want to be taken seriously. (and who most likely will not after this)

Clearly balkanisation is undesirable, and clearly some sets of values are incompatible. Eg. extremist X and anything Y. As a result, a commonly accepted set is required in order for people to form a group, a community or a nation. Holding values incompatible with the existence or presence of another (benevolent) group will without question preclude co-existence, either as a distinct group or otherwise. Possessing this kind of value is unhealthy and brings destruction, cruelty and ill-conceived thoughts. (Just look at the acts of Islamists.) Thus, it is important that this kind of conviction should not be imported, fostered or otherwise encourage by anyone, least of all our Government. It is ridiculous to accept into this country those that would target and destroy us, anyone who suggests the opposite is a fool.

Stone is absolutely correct that "citizenship applicants should also have to pass a reasonable written test of citizenship's meaning: parliamentary democracy, respect for others' rights, the rule of law and a general understanding of the Australian values to which they swear commitment." But it is not enough to merely keep out the destructive elements since many within our country already possess such views, many in our country encourage and teach such views! They should be denounced by all and encouraged to reject such un-Australian values.

And so I call on all members of this forum to denounce such values and posters who hold them. Say no to monoculturalism!

It's no surprise that a racist like John Stone would come up with such a offensive proposition. John is a racist always will be a racist and trying to justify his racist views by linking Islam to terrorism is appalling. The only people who would swallow that are other racist and looking at the names of the people responding positively I rest my case.
Simply look at what John has said in the past about a number of ethic groups. John all but join one nation when they were around and John should follow them and exit stage right. There is no place for relics like John in our multicultural Australia maybe we should deport him. Let me give John and others a hint terrorism has always been with us and always will be. It has been employed by people of all races, faiths and cultures. Should we be putting these conditions on the Irish, Tamil…? As for Islam being a failed culture I would doubt that John knows anything about the current state of Islamic culture. I think John should have a look at his own conservative views to see some moral bankruptcy.

I confess to some unease about the attitudes to women expressed by some Muslims, even some of the so-called moderate ones. Perhaps we do need to set some criteria about who we should encourage to migrate here. If you don't approve of women being free to dress, say and do what they want (within the law, of course) then perhaps this ain't the country for you. (However, women from such repressive countries who want to leave, perhaps should be welcomed with open arms.)
But such a criteria should not be racially, culturally or religiously based. Each applicant should be judged on their individual merits and part of that merit might include attitudes to women, freedom of speech, democracy and, of course, other groups in the community. Just as we don't want to import fundamentalism or sexist views from Islamic countries, so we also do not want to import white racism from South Africa. I differ with John Stone in that I don't think all adherents of a particular religion can be tarred with the same brush. What is so hard about using individual merit?
What is Mr Stone's attitude to the prevalance of generously govt funded faith based schools in Australia? Is this tendency to put like with like a good thing for our cohesion as a society or not? Removing funding from such schools and promoting our secular public schools could be a really practical and achievable way to avoid the ghettoisation of various groups and beliefs. Funny how no-one ever suggests it though, perhaps because it would effect Christian schools as much as Muslim.....

A lot of this article sounds very like the bad old days of the White Australia Policy.

I feel a stronger committment from our government to language and culture classes for new arrivals would be much more useful than something like 'oh if you dont speak english you cannot come'. How silly.

FANTASTIC ARTICLE JOHN. YOU HAVE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. Critics of multiculturalism are hard to find, and judging by some of the comments posted, no wonder.

Name one politician sitting in Australian parliament who is asking the hard questions on multiculturalism. There is not a single voice questioning multiculturalism. All politicans are in chorus about how wonderful it is, yet out on the street, multiculturalism is widely considered a joke.

Bullying, name-calling and aggression is what holds multiculturalism together, which says a lot about the people who promote it. Most multiculturalists are enthusiastic about the decline of western civilisation. [Deleted for swearing. Poster suspended for 24 hours]

Multiculturalism does NOT define a nation. It assumes that the country has no culture worth valuing. It assumes that everyone is happy to be part of a faceless mass and happy to be mindless consumers.

Immigration should indeed be tighter, because people will respect their citizenship much more. Untill Islam undergoes some kind of renaissance, islamic immigration should stop.

I'd expect nothing less from John Stone. I'd make more comment but it seems that the hyenas have got here before me and are joyfully celebrating the kill. I’ve heard these songs of joy before, same chorus, same tune, same monotones.

Davo One Nation is a spent force, the goose stepping crowd are a fading memory. Yes there are some stragglers such as yourself but I can guess your not a member of a minority are you. Do you have any Asian friends? John thinks they shouldn't be allowed in either. You need to learn a bit of history ask the GB's on this site about the dark ages.

So according to John Islam is a failed culture and multiculturalism should be abolished !
I always thought that Islam was a religion as much as Christianity and John's comments demonstrate a sense of confusion about the reality.Multifaith is no substitute to multiculturalism, nor is a society based on particular religious beliefs.
It is unfortunate that we have some politicians ignoring the fundamental democratic principles and the noble values underpinning them.It is through respect of human beings that one achieves harmony.
To conveniently associate Australian Muslims with terrorism bears the hallmark of xenophobes.
There is no doubt that obnoxious organisations need to be eradicated but there is no need to subliminally villify anyone on the basis of race or creed.
One cannot escape the fact that Australia already is a multicultural society,and a successfull one at that.
Perhaps one days some of the zombies will come out of their transe and realise that it is too late to change it.
Multiculturalism has many definitions.It is quite often opposed to the notion of integration or assimilation and yet integration and assimilation have been a valuable consequence of Australian multiculturalism.
The culture of a nation is a never ending evolution and Australian culture has evolved through multiculturalism without losing its fundamental virtues. "Fair go " is still very australian.

Nobby

can i suggest that if we lose multiculturism we lose the very thing that has made western civilisation sucessfull. the ability to adapt to differing, new and diverse ideas if the foundation of this country and even more so america.

can you imagine thw world today if openhiemer had been denied entry to america because he was german? what if he had stayed and worked on the atom bomb in germany? im suggesting that by denying people simply on the basis that they are muslim is denying us the very people who can help us tackle terrorism.

Can I suggest a variety of views on this pathetic thread, instead of a multicultural love-in?

Multiculturalism is propelled by anti-western propaganda. It is almost a vehicle for some to destroy our way of life, hiding behind some egalitarian zeal.

I don't blame Muslims for terrorist attacks on western soil. I blame the blase liberal attitudes of westerners themselves. The people who advocate multiculturalism are the ones to blame. Their carelessness makes me sick, as does their perverted obsession with diversity.

The Guardian newspaper in Britain for example, thought the staff were too white. So they employed a muslim for that extra diversity. Turns out to be a member of a militant Islamist organisation - Hizb ut-Tahrir. iDIOTS

I agree with its not easy being's comments. Although it is kinda abstract, i believe you can apply aspects of the chaos theory to this argument: that rigid stability is inflexible and ultimately leads to catastrophic collapse whilst diversity and the ability to adapt facilitates constant change thereby promoting longevity.

The free market is arguably the west's most successful export and is based on principles of competition and adaptability. I do believe that diversity has parallel effects when it comes to culture. Segregation breeds suspicion and intolerance. Multiculturalism perhaps, has done more than any policy to prevent terrorism by promote understanding through close interaction and assimilation.

I also think its better to leave the labeling and name calling out of these threads. Terms such as 'right wing' and 'left wing' do nothing to advance the debate. If i, a 17 year old (Chinese) high school student can refrain from name calling, than i think most of you should be able to as well.

If i may add, i think its interesting to find that a study of muslim and non muslim suicide terrorism worldwide since the 80's found that foreign occupation was the overriding factor which pushed terrorists to kill themselves.

It is debatable whether this is what happened on September 11th but ask yourself this
How has Islamic terrorism changed since our reaction to 9/11?

PLease understand that i am not trying to justify terrorism, but understand that terrorism is the weapon of a disadvantaged minority. What happens when you corner an animal?

I see deportation as a passive reaction which hides the wound, letting it fester. A multicultural policy however encourages understanding of Australian values and attitudes.

Die Fahne hoch die Reihen fest geschlossen
S. A. marschiert mit ruhig festem Schritt
Kam'raden die Rotfront und Reaktion erschossen
Marschier'n im Geist in unsern Reihen mit

Die Strasse frei den braunen Batallionen
Die Strasse frei dem Sturmabteilungsmann
Es schau'n auf's Hackenkreuz voll Hoffung schon Millionen
Der Tag fur Freiheit und fur Brot bricht an

Zum letzen Mal wird nun Appell geblasen
Zum Kampfe steh'n wir alle schon bereit
Bald flattern Hitler-fahnen Uber allen Strassen
Die Knechtschaft dauert nur mehr kurze Zeit

Die Fahne hoch die Reihen fest geschlossen
S. A. marschiert mit ruhig festem Schritt
Kam'raden die Rotfront und Reaktion erschossen
Marschier'n im Geist in unsern Reihen mit

If we abolish SBS we will have the side benefit of eliminating South Park from TV. American trash that it is.

I think cultural diversity is the core to the heritage of western civilisation. However I will support almost any reform that reduces government funding of arts, crafts and culture workshops. A vibrant culture does not need state sponsorship

We're under attack from extremist groups that are totalitarian & monoculturalist, and the suggested response is to make Australia more monocultural & totalitarian, provoking greater extremist totalitarian monoculturalist sentiment in the process. Brilliant idea.

I'm confused, is today an "Islam is exceptionally violent" day or an "inevitable cultural conflict" day? I guess the latter, but the author didn't want an effective halt on non-Muslim cultures and didn't draw any distinction between Western and non-Western Muslims, so I may be wrong. They're probably both excuses anyway.

It is interesting to notice the fervor with which some people malign multiculturalism. Are we to believe that there is a pandemic of intercultural violence within Australia? Or that our cultural values are at risk? Get real. Intercultural conflict within Australia didn't produce Islamist terrorism, and shutting our doors to Muslims won't end it. Cultural differences will remain, extremism will remain and there are plenty of overseas targets. There's nothing wrong with fighting the symptoms, but such measures have to be appropriate and adapted. This "solution" is clearly the opposite, an extreme measure that affects people entirely unconnected with terrorism.

I would very much welcome a logical argument against multiculturalism, since I like diversity and have a teensy-weensy issue with discriminating against billions of people without good reason. Also, an explanation regarding any significant usefulness of a mandatory national ID in apprehending those involved in an attack would be nice. I expect neither.

I have to congratulate those against multiculturalism for being so compassionate, for not wanting to forcibly remove people who are from different cultures. Of course, the families of those people will probably never be able to visit (security risk) and they will have to live here knowing that Australia doesn't want "people like them". Not because they're dangerous, not because they're wasting resources, just because they're different. It isn't racism (at this point) but it isn't much better.

Multiculturalism is great if it is not controlled by a Totalitarian culture as it subtly appears to be in Victoria under the Australian Multicultural Foundation. Any person espousing any form of totalitarianism must be isolated from our diverse Australian culture.

It appears that the Federal Government is unwittingly funding the exclusive promotion, protection and expounding of the religion of Islam under the cover of multiculturalism to the total exclusion of any other religious culture. Australia has experienced 200 years of religious harmony, and it now appears that the AMF agenda is to threaten religious harmony and diversity in our free and democratic Australia. The AMF recommendations on Religion to the Victorian Government give evidence they endorse the control of Religion by the State. Such a move represents a Totalitarian direction in State affairs and a move back into the dark ages and does not represent our free and Democratic Westminster System upon which Australia has been built.

The Australian Constitution, under Section 116 says, "The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, & no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth."

In my view it is violating the Australian Constitution by its exclusive promotions of a particular religion; namely Islam, using Federal Government funding.


I note in the AMF website page "Religion, Cultural Diversity and Safeguarding Australia" the only religion mentioned is Muslim. Since it is the only religion outlined by an 83 page document under this heading "Australian Muslims: their Beliefs, Practices and Institutions"

I note no other Religious culture is documented in detail so assume the other religions have no problem assimilating, without threat to Australia, into our values and way of life. I therefore believe to assist migrant Muslims we should fully educate them into our culture and religious holidays and cultural values; then because their appreciation of Australian Culture could reduce their threat to undermine the multifaith security of Australia

When I'm overseas I often hear Australians proudly proclaim what a wonderful multicultural country they come from - mostly to people from other cultures.

Not once have I heard them say they would rather a mono-cultural and mono lingual nation.

Someone should instruct these Aussies on departure to rote learn the John Stone line so that they give everyone they meet the RIGHT message whilst they are abroad. We wouldn't want to world to get the wrong message about us now would we?

Its not racism, its about culture and religion! Now throw another shrimp on the Barby will ya.

Culture should not be focused in race or even religion; it is about national cuisine, language, and dress, national or local practises. World religions cross national and cultural boundaries so should not qualify as a cultural focus. But how much attention does the Australian Multicultural Foundation to religion give? The only focus seems to be on the Muslim religion.

http://www.amf.net.au/rsch_research_religionDiversityCohesion.shtml

When I first read this article in the Australian on Friday I was confussed as to why the opinion of such a paranoid rascist bigot would be printed.

Maybe its because John Stone's views are extreme and the Australian was presenting polarised opinons on the topic of multicultrilism and immigration.

Sadly after reading the letters to the editor and the comments on this site I am reminded that Australia is a xenophobic society.

The only thing more embarassing for Australia than having politicians like John Stone is haveing politicians that fail to rebuke such rascism and infact fan such sentiment for electoral opportunistic gain

Why do people like Tieran cling so much to their racist comfort blanket? So they can label all opinions averse to theirs as racist?

These Islam Facists are not small in number and it won't take much to push the moderates over the edge.This is not about race ,but a belief system that will destroy everything our democracy stands for.

It is a fragmented and confused belief system that has been hijacked by those who seek power in the name of a god.

Do we want to take our civilisation back 600 yrs?While I think many other cultures have added much to our country our language of English represents the dominant culture and should be spoken well by all.

Those who don't speak English well get marginalised both socially and economically and are thus easy prey for nutter extremists.

While I don't agree with his attack on SBS, much of what he says is just simply facing realities.Just because we reject a particular philosophy;does that make us racist?I fear his critics will have to face more home truths in the near future.

While some of John Stone's suggestions did seem a little simplistic and anti-Muslim an objective reader would not have interpreted the author as racist. Tieran's vitriolic response reveals more about Tieran than about John Stone. Methinks Tieran protests too much. I wonder if she is merely trying to deflect attention from her own racist tendencies. I believe that many Australians who are quick to label a fellow Australian as racist are simply perpetuating a despicable calumny as a shield to hide (from themselves and others) what is within. If Australians are to be embarrassed about anything it is the tendency of many to not respect their fellow Australians and their Australian culture. It is not racist to discuss issues relating to the possible problems of multiculturalism. It is not racist to have an opinion on what might be best for your country.

John Stone's first point was that 'official multiculturalism policies must be abandoned outright' but I wonder if the real issue is the 'how' of multiculturalism. Perhaps the Australian government needs to look at better ways of establishing multiculturalism

New arrivals are probably engulfed in a whirlpool of confusion and misunderstanding in the initial stage. It is incumbent on a government that invites people from other countries to settle here to make it as easy as possible for them.

Of course there are people in our society who are intolerant of other races but I believe many misunderstandings, quickly denounced as racist by the media and the bleeding hearts, are in fact simply misunderstandings.

swag

The great irony here is that of all the ethnic groups to come to Australia over 30 years of multiculturalism it is the Iraqi Muslims who have demonstrated the most encouraging propensity to get out of the cities and into mainstream rural communities. The Iraqi presence in the Murray Valley towns has provided an important source of farm labour to a sector that has been very poorly serviced by the immigration intake in the past.

And good Christians are quietly discovering that a sober, family oriented Muslim who actually wants to work on a farm, makes a far better neighbour than a 3rd generation anglo/aust feral with a substance problem and a predatory green ideology that has minimal room for fact or honesty.

The urban media has made maximum use of the Hansonite phenomena to demonise our rural minority as racist. It is a message that has been readily accepted by urban migrants, many of whom have come from cultures with an appaling record of systematic discrimination against their rural communities. This has not been helped by a migrant selection process that is heavily weighted in favour of urban applicants.

Yet, all over the countryside one can meet families of Italian, Greek and Baltic background who have always felt accepted as part of the local community. Many will tell you that the only time they have ever been called a "wog" was on a visit to the city.

The fact is, the rural community has had very good reasons for distrusting multicultural policies because the benefits of immigration have concentrated in the places where migrants have settled, the cities. There has been minimal economic "trickle down" and the number of new arrivals has substantially eroded the political power of the bush.

And the bush is now confronted by an urban electorate that has imported some very unhealthy attitudes to rural people compounded by a level of ignorance of rural issues that has been easily exacerbated by predatory green propaganda. Terrorism is an urban problem, keep your hands off "our" Muslims.

Yes there is a problem with an ethnocentric Australian public T.V station but it is not SBS. It is the ABC or dear old Auntie as some like to refer to it. It’s seems part of a quest to enshrine this station as an Australian baby BBC. What would a post colonial nation of 20 million people really know about defining their own identity anyway.

The ABC constantly fills it slots with second rate British swill. Plenty of good stuff comes out of the U.K but a lot it is pretty drab. If you watched the channel through the 80’s there was a good chance you may not have been aware there was any female British actors other than Penelope Keith.

SBS is hardly a big drain on the public purse and I don’t think it utterly compromised by advertising.

Programs like insight and dateline do a good job on fractional budgets of ABC equivalents.

SBS seems to have innovative and entrepreneur qualities that ABC lovers so detest. No wonder they want to role it over to make another ABC station. After all the BBC has two main channels gosh Australia better follow.

South Park may not be everyone’s idea of quality TV but not all of us want to sit down to yet another show about a murder in the English countryside. Give me the iron chef any day.

SBS does not enshrine insularity on the country it provides resources for us to be more aware of the rest of the planet, something that may actually be helpful if we want to address our trade deficit.

Hmmmm... I find it upsetting, to see all the hate and fear that has been paraded about as "debate" in the last few weeks. Of course these have been with us forever, but the horrible events in the UK and beyond, seems to be used as an excuse to air such rubbish. As one respondant pointed out; Captain Cook wasn't applying for visas when he and his crew arrived on our Eastern Shores. As a consequence, I have never been able to understand what people are on about when they say "Australian Culture should be protected" by keeping out anyone who can't speak English. Migrants do learn English, suprise suprise. Their kids go to school and learn English.... and so what if people want to hang on to their culture. For crying out loud, being from an Anglo/ Celtic Christain background, my family still have a Turkey at Christmas, for example. HELLO! Is that Australian? Is Christianity Australian? I seem to remember learning about Jesus & the Twelve Apostles, not Jesus and the First XI. (Mind you cricket's and English game anyways) Did anyone make any noise about Timmy McVie's Christianity when he set off a bomb? I don't know what some people are thinking at the moment. Well I'm off to get a Thai Green Curry and maybe a Fallafel later on... Cheers.

To all those having difficulties with our world.

A statement of fact:

Planet Earth is multicultural.

You can always leave and start your own monoculture somewhere else. If you choose to stay then pull your collective fingers out and make an effort to get along with other people. Its not difficult. Agree to disagree if you must. We have more in common with each other than we do differences. In fact our differences are superficial. Our humanity isn't.

A restricted immigration policy will not free us from terror - it will just return us to the bad old days of white Australia.

There is no escaping multiculturalism - it is a part of this world's environment.

Yours Sincerely

A Human Being

Closing our borders is no solution.
But I am not surpised at Stones veiws or those of them that think he has "hit the nail" on the head; I am surprised he stopped short of suggesting that we round up all muslims and people of a swarthy appearance and herd them into camps - indeed we now have a surplus of spaces in our detention centres ready made for these no good nicks; I mean the United States did it to the japanese after Pear Harbour was bombed didnt they? And if its good enough for them to dehumanise a particular race surely its good enough for us.

At the same time we need to be wary of the Irish Catholic, any one from the former Soviet Union (they could be communist sleepers), scottish trade union officials, Chinese people (see Soviet Union), the French, they have a history of revolution and are fiercely republican. And any one else whose veiws are at odds with ours.

Autralia over the last decade has become a dangerous and lonely place and is set to become even more dangerous and lonely - and like the english bombers the source of the danger is home grown and represented in the utterings of the likes of Stone.

Trinity
the world is also 'Tribal' :) an examination of most European countries will reveal many 'tribal' dialects.
Show me one place on earth, where 'tribes' co-exist in harmony where there is a shortage of resources. And then, if you can, show me the same people when populations swell and resources do eventually become 'valuable' :) I have a sneaky feeling, people havn't 'evolved' beyond tribal loyalties as yet. OOps.. sorry, I forgot about trendy Lygon street cafe's, but the real world is back at Johnston street.

WHITE Australia Policy. errr.. T, your so far off the rails on that one. It ain't about color !

SILENT and SNEEKEE You guys make valid observations, but you are failing to connect to the bigger picture. Your comments are parochial and 'anecdotal'. True as far as they go, but neglect the determined goals of 'agenda drivers' of the Islamic faith. Its not the family bloke down the road or next door who is going to 'dimmify' you, it is the shouting ranting Sheikh in the mosque. You need to get out more :)
did you actually 'hear' what Sheikh Omran said on 60minutes ? or the other guy ? 'hello'... to quote you.

Australia and America are unique, (less tribal) a big discussion needed -they are atypical of the rest of the world

Do a search on Islam and demographics

http://muslim-canada.org/muslimstats.html
Largely through immigration, the Muslim population of the United States grew sixfold between 1972 and 1990

Are they changing the fabric of society ? are they IMPOSING their faith LOUDLY on non Muslims ? Would YOU like this experience ? How would you FEEL if you were powerless to change a loud yelling of Islamic prayer in your bedroom window 5 times a day, even though you were part of the majority non muslim community ? Is such religous imposition 'divisive', 'inconsiderate', 'rude', 'annoying' and an attack on the existing/host culture ?

check this
http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0404/26/a01-133933.htm

If anyone doesn't want this, they have a democratic right to DISCRIMINATE in their immigration

I'm Atheist so I'm glad that BOAZ_DAVID has seen the evils of religious freedom. If we stop anyone with a fundamentalist irrational belief in the supernatural from entering the country then how much better off would we be. ;-)
As a missionary you have little ground to stand on here, after all you go to China trying to change the dominate culture over there. Oh I forgot yours is the true irrational belief in the supernatural and therefore do apply to you.

Religious fundamentalism in the evangelical Abrahamic Sects always leads to violence of some sort. Don't forget the next worst terror attack in the US was made a Christian militia member.

From the general tone of this thread it seems that most people just aren’t buying it John. The ‘race’ thing sort of fizzled since your last go at it and ‘culture’ doesn’t seem to be doing the job either. I’m sure there must be plenty of ‘other’ words. Perhaps you could even invent one.

Jimbo: “SBS does not enshrine insularity on the country it provides resources for us to be more aware of the rest of the planet…”

That’s why he wants us to ditch it.

Multiculturalism works. For those who are having SO MANY problems with it, perhaps you need to get out more.

Why are there Prayer Rooms at airports for people of Muslim faith - and none for people of Christian faith? How is that multiculturalism?

kalweb >>Why are there Prayer Rooms at airports for people of Muslim faith - and none for people of Christian faith? <<

Maybe because christians haven't asked for any.

Where do you stand on John Stone's argument? Or was your intention just to stir up anti-muslim feeling?

If so, for shame. I have seen you make more compassionate and considered posts than this.

Please don't add any more fuel to the fire of hate.

There are points John makes that I find hard to refute.
At the same time I don't see how we can adopt the measures it would take to make us feel safer without becoming less than we are. What part of ourselves should we put aside to get that feeling of improved safety and how much hatred would we generate to do so?

If terror makes us more insular and less embracing of the world then terror wins.

Shutdown SBS - could it be that SBS is providing a massive service to break down some of the barriers. We don't have several hundred SBS's all broadcasting a specific language/cultural identity. We have one network slicing broadcast time up across a variety of languages and cultures. Just as I get to experience bits of other cultures watching SBS so to do those not from my culture.

Lets shift the focus of the debate from building walls to finding ways to deal with those who are a genuine risk. I doubt that is likely to be helped by working to make all Muslims feel ostracised and suspect.

R0bert

Xena and others - apologies - I posted on the wrong thread - which makes my comment inappropriate to the article. I am not stirring up anything - just asking a simple question.

We have had feedback from some of the Muslim youth groups, particularly one that has been associated with one of the London bombers.

His rationalisation of events is understood as him asking us to believe that we need to find the balance of this act of terrorism with understanding that the occupation of the Muslim land is what caused the English born muslim to commit acts of terrorism on innocent people.

I suggest that the Leaders of our Muslim communities takes their youths with such beliefs back to the motherland they idolise to help in the trenches defending their people.

And then our Australian's of the Muslim faith may feel homesick.

Ten days ago, meeting with seven other well-read middle-aged women, most of whom have raised well-educated children and grandchildren, and seven of whom are fairly recent refugees from Sydney to the Lake Macquarie area, there was much discussion of "what's going wrong with cities like Sydney" - and we meant not just in Australia. Agreed opinion was that an absolute stop to immigration from the Middle East in particular and from Asia was the first priority.

I don't know if we're in the silent minority or the silent majority. Certainly none of us attends church, though we all were raised in Christian households with "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" beliefs. We hold no general ill will to individuals from the Middle East but we abhor what has happened to suburbs of Sydney where "spot the Aussie" is the way things are now, with no hope of it ever being different. And don't tell me that because the intruders have taken advantage of what Australia offers -or indeed are operating businesses in their own rights - they have assimilated into the Australian way of life.

It appears to us that there is nowhere in the world where Muslims and Christians can live side by side in harmony - witness Lebanon, France, Britain, Yugoslavia - for any length of time. Muslims can't even bear living with each other - witness Iraq. Of course, you could also say that of Christians in Ireland - but what can you expect of the Irish?

But to the point: why ruin our country?

Not being a frequent flyer, the ‘actual’ number of airports that have only dedicated Muslim prayer rooms as opposed to non-denominational, multi-denominational, all denominational, all religion or just plain prayer rooms, is a bit unclear.

Makaleka what does a Aussie look like?

Well, gee, Makaleka, by your reasoning, it appears this country was ruined with the arrival of the First Fleet. All those micks, you know. And what can you expect of them? Apart from high educational standards, some of the finest writers in the English language, and a booming economy?

Kenny :)

read "man from snowy river" and you'll get an idea of the roots of the anglo/scott/irish/ white characteristics. Talk to any Aboriginal about their culture. Together, these are the backbone of modern Australia.

So, an "Aussie" is predomonantly Black, or White and for 'the rest' who are later arrivals. check the ABS on ethnic and religious diversity.

Then start adding :) You will still come up with a HUGE and I mean HUGE majority of anglo/scott/irish background, I think from memory its something like 16 million.

Besides all 'that' :) an Aussie is how the dominant ethnic/cultural group decides to 'define' him/her. That is (dare I say it) how life works :) and you have to leave it to the general 'do unto others' background of the Judao Christian roots to realize that by and large, most people will get a fair go. But blare into my bedroom at 100db that "Mohammed is Gods messenger" 5 times a day and there will be 'movement at the station as the word gets passed around' :)

Anyone who thinks that 10 Eskimos can come here and suddenly declare that an 'aussie' is in reality 'after their own image' is kinda on the impractical track.

The concept of 'Aussie' will evolve, true. But it must evolve in an assimilative manner, again, thats how life works you know, out here in the sticks, away from the Lygon st coffee shops and South Bank eateries :)

The most important thing about being 'Aussie' is how all races and backgrounds absorb or adjust to the prevailing values (the good ones) of the prevailing culture when they arrived. otherwise, don't come.

(and that includes we white trash :) but again, life works in the direction of those with the power... sadly, so 'we are here' and dominant/prevailing cultures get to make the rules. right

(if wrong, why wrong, on what basis ?)

Kill SBS. Does that mean no more Tour De France? Oh God no! Please not the same old mainstream's culture of Rugby League, Rugby League (it is just endless biff, to me)Aussie Rules (tolerate that in small doses) - cricket, cricket, cricket, cricket - (I fall asleep in front of the TV and wake up sunburnt) and golf (I'd sooner watch a dugoon sleep).
Fair go - that mainstream culture would bore me to tears. I don't think that you will ever get 20 million people to all embody the same thinking, religion and lifetstyles. Do you really think that you can convince all people to think like you. All those bloggers with their different opinions, experiences, attitudes is evidence of that. Do you really think all people are going to adopt the one (fundamentalist) religion? Do you really think we are all going to adopt the one culture -the attitude of say a sell-out (how inauthentic) or Catholic priest - (yuk how unnatura)? People make their choices and so long as they don't infringe unfairly on the rest of society then we to be fair we must tolerate that difference.
In other words, look beyond the old racist concepts of difference and you will see that there are many tribes and attitudes in this land of ours - many cultures within culture. However, I thought it a given that our commonality goes beyond culture to something much deeper to our first culture - our shared humanity. Our humanity - I think/feel, therefore so do you - my life is my blessing and thus so is your life. I don't see what is so hard to grasp here.
There was an article in these blogs where the writer argued that fat or build is a race issue. I think that in some ways difference is a race issue in that it focuses on a certain trait or characteristic (or unconsious dislike). I don't like football, so I don't watch it, but, because I prefer individual sport rather than team playing - I would like an alternative (my unconsious motive? ).

continued -- Our humanity binds us against violence of all levels (where there is violence you'll find the usually destructive end-justifies-the-means thinking).
Our DNA, our life and reading experiences contribute to our individualism and our choices. Because we are, regardless of race and ironically our own chosen (or imposed)culture, multicultural we need to tolerate others choices that are within the boundaries of our social contract. You take away my choices you take away authenticity and my freedom. There are no real choices in a monoculture.

If we are already so diverse, then why do we have to make ourselves even more divided, fragmented and alienated?? Multi Cultists often emphasise the fact that we are all human, that may be so, but we speak a different language.

Multiculturalism is an attempt at homogenisation. But most people don't want to be faceless. They want to know their identity, who they are and where they belong. The amount of second generation ethnic minorities struggling to come to terms with their identity, and how they fit into Australian society is an affront to the lies perpetuated by the multi cultists. Violence between ethnic groups in our major cities (and towns) is a self inflicted wound thanks to our blindly idealistic (read clueless) multi culti.

Davo first I think your confused Monocultures is an attempt to homogenise people not Multiculturalism. Multiculturalism embraces and celebrates differences and commonalities. The greatest strength of western culture is its ability to assimilate ideas. Western culture has become the dominate culture on the planet because it is so liberal it can be many things to many people because of the very fact that it is Multicultural.
BOAZ_David man from snowy river come on now. How you must miss the “White Australia” policy. I live in the desert not in some lash mountains a few hundred km’s from Sydney. This country was opened up by Afghan camels trains and Asian mine workers.

My Aussies harder to spot then yours because mine are identified by what's in their hearts not the color of their skin or by which god they pray to.

With no more Muslims allowed in, how long will it be until the Muslims that are already here are forced out or told to convert to Christianity. Then how long until the Asians and Africans should go. Then how long until Jews don’t mix in well enough. Next the non-believers and lapsed Christians. Then the Catholics. Then dark haired people, then people whose accents are not authentic enough. Who is going to decide what a real Aussie is? Lets have everybody the environment can support.

Have any of the monoculturalists, like John Stone, met a Muslim person and thought “Hey, he’s a pretty nice guy. I’m glad he lives in Australia. I could learn a few things about the world from somebody who has had some different experiences and looked at life from a different perspective.” Why not say, sorry no praying five times a day for me, (most Mulsims don't either) but as long as you don’t bother me, knock yourself out.

Modern society has progressed because we have been able to accept new ideas, listen to everybody who has something to say and adapt freely where appropriate. Multiculturalism is just an extension of the idea of freedom. People get to live the way they want, as long as they obey the laws. If anybody breaks the law lock 'em up, but don't lock them up just for being a little different. Applaud their difference. Let's be free to express new ideas and think new thoughts, not be tied to somebody's idea of what the right kind of Aussie is.

I heard some concerning stories coming from Sydney that some of the suburbs are unrecognisible of Australian culture.

They spoke of the violence of the Lebonese community against Australians. Australians are now being beaten and abused if they go into those Sydney suburbs.

The latest round of racism laws and racial vilification laws were maybe a good idea!

But for us white Australians?

Suebbdoo

I get the feeling that you are a kind person. I also get the feeling that the "Politically Correct" people are about to use your guts for garters.

I can see where you are coming from.

The last time that I used a train was in NSW (1997) - from North Richmond to Paramatta. I was the only person in my carriage who resembled the notion of a "white" Australian. All of the other travellers were speaking other languages - and the males used the "finger" to threaten me. There were no male or female people who resembled people of Aboriginal or Torres Trait Islander heritage.

Kalweb, I know from many of your posts that you are well meaning. But I fail to get the point of your post here.

Until last year I travelled by train every day to the CBD (an hour each way). I saw many diverse people and the only time I was harassed was by a white teenager who threw my bag onto the floor because I didn't move it quickly enough for him. I didn't ask if he was a white Australian - did it really matter?

Until the arrival of colonists this country was a monoculture. As I have stated before this entire planet is multicultural, the only way to escape it is to move to another (presumably empty) planet.

My own geneology is a mixture of Irish, Scottish, English and Jewish. The Jewish ancestry means I have a genetic connection to the middle east, and of course, all humans can be traced back to our beginnings in Africa.

John Stone's article is a knee jerk response to a current situation. He gives no thought to the Muslim community who live here and obviously doesn't understand what multiculturalism is.

Kalweb I am sure you are intelligent enough to know that there are good and bad in all people. Just reporting the bad behaviour of a particular race is called ...... well I think you know what it is called.

Actually I wish to correct a line in my previous post. I stated that before the arrival of colonists Australia was a monculture - this isn't really true. There were a huge variety of Aboriginal tribes - with their own traditions and languages. I apologise for being so ignorant.

It simply goes to show that no matter where we go on this planet we are mixture of races and cultures and always will be.

Monoculture is death to the human spirit and imagination. Perhaps if John Stone doesn't like living in a vibrant and diverse community he should leave. But where would he go? Where are the monocultures?

TRINITY.... lucky for you :) (recanting on your aboriginal monoculture slip .. a major one that)

KENNY... how many times do I have to repeat to your obviously THICK head, that I am not a 'White' Australia advocate. (pretty hard being married to an Asian and loving her people) I am an advocate of "We (Australians) make the rules". This is a democracy. You don't like it, stand for parliment :)

On the issue of Muslims. I've made my point abundantly clear on that one, and I make the point equally loudly that other faiths are welcome, but not that one. UNLESS they are happy for us to 'dhimmify' them according to the "Charter of Omar" with its very neo nazi like 'discriminatory' singling out of Jews and Christians, who were not allowed to own a horse (because horses are 'NOBLE') clearly there is no nobility in being Christian or Jew.

A Christian or Jewish Dhimmi must not share their faith with a Muslim (who is under pain of death if he/she converts) and in the earlier Muslim states must wear 'distinctive clothing' just like the Jews under Hitler.

Now, bear in mind, "Omar" was one of the "4 enlightened Caliph's". Those looked up to as fine examples of the Islamic state. They regard the subequent Caliphs as having 'strayed'.

If only Kenny and others, you realized the depth of absolute racism/discrimination inherrant in Islam, you might catch a glimpse of where I'm coming from on social policy.

The callous disregard for non muslims in Hamtramck is just an indicator along with many other issues in the legal realm where laws are being imposed on us by stealth, and why diligence is needed to prevent unwanted changes to our legal/social system being made without our approval. ("our" =non Muslim)

But Kenny, 'be afraid' because the most hateful feelings Islam has, .....is for "Atheists", who in the reported words of Kaysar Trad are 'the dregs' and in the words of one of the Muslim 60 minutes guests "sewerage"

There is just one race; the human race!
Paradox and diversity are the dynamic forces that push progress and provide focus for social development.
The paradox of multiculturalism lies in the notion that we humans must allow nominally repugnant ideas to be expressed or lose the very flexibility and strength which our diversity encourages. As long as we promote such diversity of expression and comment we are strong and can debate; as soon as we try to suppress unpalatable positions we are weakened by the attempt to justify actions which are repugnant to the traditions of democracy which we are, justifiably, proudest of.
May you live in interesting times!

Multiculturalism is absolutely "morally repugnant". It is propelled by economics, not for the enrichment of society. It's origins stem from the days of colonialism and slavery.

There seems to be an embarrassment of the white Australia policy among these threads. Would you all like a rope to hang yourselves with? Having migrants come from the one source is the reason why our society is peaceful. If the abilty to absorb new ideas from migrants is the key to western success, then how come Brazil is such a mess? That country is more 'multicultural' than we will ever be, and the place is poverty stricken, with entrenched racism.

It does'nt matter where you go in the western world, multiculturalism is being forced down peoples throat. Multiculturalism has never been popular with the people, and is therefore undemocratic feature of our society. Big business calls the shots. Solomon Lew, Richard Pratt and Lindsay Fox all say it is a good idea :( bigger markets means bigger profits right ): therefore it must be? Wrong :(

Col Gradolf

That post of yours was the epitomy of 'social naivity/wishful thinking/political ignorance' :)

Let's scrutinize your view in the light of facts.

You Said
Quote:
As long as we promote such diversity of expression and comment we are strong and can debate; as soon as we try to suppress unpalatable positions we are weakened by the attempt to justify actions which are repugnant to the traditions of democracy which we are, justifiably, proudest of.
EndQuote

Hmm.. so we are weakened by 'supressing the idea of National Socialism' ?
-it is surely 'repugnant'.

If you are 'pro free speech' .. how do u feel about the attempt by the Islamic Council of Victoria to 'silence' the Catch the Fire Pastors for explaining verifiable factual material to people so they understand the Muslim "mindset" ?

An idea, can be dangerous, and Idea + Power can be a holocaust.

Government has a responisiblity to be very selective in who it allows to come to this country, based on the ideas it knows will/will not come with them.

One will hardly have any fear or repugnance for a Buddhist who simply seeks personal enightenment, but the case of Muslims who threaten the British government over its foreign policy "Unless you change your foreign policy the problem (of suicide bombings) will continue" (spoken by a 'young disenchanted Muslim to a news reporter in the aftermath of the London Bombings)

In other words, the idea of Islam, will bring with it the threat of 'murder' if you are a Film maker, Tube Bombings if your foreign policy is to rescue a majority Shia population from Sunni Oppression (and guarantee the supply of oil as a bonus) or Blasting out the Call to Prayer from Loudspeakers to the non muslims 5 times a day 365 days a year if you live in Hamtramck USA.

Some ideas and practices are repugnant and we have a democratic choice to determine if we feel comfortable with bringing them into our midst. You have a problem with that ?

Just checking to see if identification works...hooray

Davo you need to reread your history books. The White Australia filth was used to stop Asia, Middle eastern, African, and Slavic people coming to Australia. It's principles were also used to try a breed out the “black” in the Koori’s as well. BOAZ_DAVID I know exactly were you are coming from. As a atheist I see your religion no different the Islam are any other mambo jumbo. Christianity and Islam share the same basic roots (Culture perversion of Judaism) and both have been used as a source of good and bad in equal measure. If we are going to start decimating on religion lets be sensible about it and ban all evangelical religions.
The Islamic Council of Victoria are seeking protection under our laws made to protect our people from religious hate speech. A few quotes for you

“Always before God and the world, the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills"
- Adolf Hitler
“that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country. They may do this in their own country or wherever they can without our being obliged to hear it or know it. “
Martin Luther 'On the Jews and their Lies'

The white Australia policy grew out of the racial tensions that arose with the arrival of the chinese. The government of the day wanted a society free from ethnic conflict.

John Stone is 100% correct, as we have seen the effects of Muslim immigration to Australia has been mostly negative. Unemployment among the Turkish & Lebanese is extremely high, although as Bob Carr once said, these Lebanese are fully employed in drug dealing, car rebirthing, ect. The imprisonment rate of middle-eastern men is sky rocketing, but one can't say that the Muslim community has the same problems as say, the Aboriginies. No Muslim drunks, or Muslim homeless, indeed, their youth drive around in brand new hotted up Subaru's with number plates "On Dole", which shows how sick & racist such people are towards our giving community. Armed robberies, racist bashings on whites in Darling Harbour by gangs of Lebanese men on Friday nights, social security fraud (according to the Daily Telegraph, ethnics are most likely to rort welfare as they often have various identities)it's outrageous. Gunshots & a riot (although it's only come out in the leftist media now) in Auburn in January over the Iraqi election poll vote. A man was actually bashed in Auburn for putting an Australian flag in his shop window by middle-eastern thugs. Labor branch stacking in Auburn as well, showing us that such communities aren't democratic in the slightest, as we see in their undemocratic hellhole nations. They vote for who their leaders tell them to vote. I agree wholeheartedly with Stone, although I'd go further & say multuculturalism shouldn't only be stopped, but reversed.

I agree MS Burns - the effects of immigration have been murder on the original inhabitants of this country.

If you can't trace your ancesters back more than say, 10,000 years you should go back where you came from.

I broadly agree with Stone’s points 3, 4 and 5. Given that citizens can vote, I think it is reasonable for citizenship candidates to have enough English to be able to take part in general debate on relevant issues, and to have some sort of demonstrated understanding of and commitment to values like tolerance, respect and the rule of law, although a written test sounds a little heavy.

On the other hand, I find point 6 excessive (English as an absolute requirement for immigration), point 1 meaningless (I can’t see any reason why abolishing SBS would be a good idea) and point 2 completely daft, ridiculous and offensive (refusing entry to all Muslims).

Saying that Islam is a failed culture because some nutters use it to justify blowing up tube trains is as absurd and pea-brained as saying that Christianity is a failed culture because some idiots use it to justify blowing up abortion clinics.

to john stone ,
john howard has made it harder for intelligent young aussies to go to uni and expand their views on the world around them, and i hear a muslim leader telling young muslims they should not go to university or they will have their thinking contaminated .just great! now john stone wants to close the borders AND sbs .
more dangerous ignorance and less tolerance on both sides won't give your's or my grandchildren a better life.
all australians should demand a better plan and action for a peacefull future ,to be put in place by this [or another] at present, very poorly led government .
hanging on to america's coat-tails won't solve our social and political problems.

Ian,the problem is that there are far more nutter Muslims proportionally and numerically than nutter Christians.The Muslims have too many head banging Koran readers that are totally subjugated to a very narrow belief system.Just go to the Middle East and live under their totalitarian system and dare to espouse such comparisions.

Kartiya,whose coat tails do we cling to,if not the USA?How do you propose that we, a miniscule nation defend ourselves against the might of China?
If we want to go it alone we have to develop our own nuclear weapons.
Either China , India or Japan could pluck us like an unwanted nostril hair at their whim.This is why we suck up to the US and we do their bidding.Can you suggest a viable alternative?

Arjay, hopefully as long as we keep on selling our resources to the world we should be ok . true, re the us , we are in a difficult position as far as war goes as we are relatively defenceless on our own. howard's reluctant signing of the asian non agression treaty is a good idea in the circumstances.
i wonder if john stone was happy with that . somehow i don't so .
if our big business, big growth government continues to want the migrants -lets hear their solutions to the prickly social problems that now have arisen.
we must learn from the flaws in the english migrant experience - why has it failed ? was because of horrible war in afghanistan and iraq; racial intolerance and ignorance,or is it purely religion at fault, or maybe a warped idea of what "democracy" entitles us to do ?

Arjay, I have no desire to live under a totalitarian form of Islam, or inded of any other religion or ideology. I’m not suggesting that we should adopt those values, nor that we should open our borders to anyone, regardless of their desire to adapt to Australian ways. What I am saying is that there is no conflict between “Australian ways” and good Muslim people like my Kurdish friends.

We shouldn’t just be trying to separate “potential terrorists” from others: we should also be looking at what Western countries are doing that might actually be encouraging otherwise sane young men to become terrorists. How could I look Rozh in the face and say to him “Sorry mate, you are not like us, you are a potential terrorist and people like you should not be allowed into this country”? That seems to me to be far more likely to create disaffection than reduce it.

There may well be more nutter Muslims than nutter Christians, but that is no argument for excluding sensible Muslims. After all, more men than women become mass murderers, but that doesn’t mean we should ban all men as potential mass murderers.

Regarding coat tails and the USA, I do think there is a viable alternative. If we were to work more closely together with New Zealand, Canada and the UK – countries with which we have deep cultural and institutional ties – we could be part of the world’s second military power. We wouldn’t need to cling to coat tails, because we would be significant regional partners. We should be strengthening ties between these key Commonwealth countries, not frittering them away

Thank you Ian for putting my thoughts into words - you have saved me much valuable time and your post was far more succinct than I could produce at this early hour and with limited time.

I think the main benefit to come from John Stone's article is that he has outed himself with his narrow and anachronistic views. And, as a result, is a reminder to those of us struggling for a more peaceful world that constant vigilance is needed.

kartiya - you can't summarise the UK's culture as a complete failure because of a small group of psychopaths. The majority of Brits get along very well, as in most democracies. we need to look at the cause of the current problems and not blame the majority for the actions of the few.

IAN
if you don't wish to be living under a totalitarian Islamic regime, you should examine very closely the link between the shooting of the lakemba police station, the Muslim males involved, and particularly one Saleh Jamal
See these 2 articles, read them closely, and decide if it represents a threat or not in the political realm.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/30/1085641770179.html?from=storylhs

http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581

So, here we have 'brutality and crime', 'Muslim males attacking the very foundation of our freedom (extortion, drugs 24/7, murder) intimidating even the police, and radical Islam all tied in together.

There was an worrisome news report this morning about young lebanese girls being taken back to lebanon for forced marraiges.

I've already written to the Minister of Immig and the Commissioner of NSW police, asking that they compare notes about these known 'crime families' and 'people newly arrived from Lebanon', and see if there is any correlation, and if non citizens are found among them associated with these families to deport them forthwith.

If you want to know how Lebanese Muslim Males regard Australian females (like Xena and Trinity) read the stories on the gang rapes of Bankstown etc. Amazing that just when we thought the ringleader was jailed for 55 yrs, VIOLA... some slippery lawyer gets them OFF! because an appeal for re-trial left the poor victim so traumatized she cannot bring her self to testify.

Rapes occur from every ethnic segment. I only know of this example where they were raped BECAUSE of their ethnicity and being Skippies(Australian)

IAN.. we have a predominant culture here, and like it or not, its ours. We need to work at not being complacent, we lack vigilance to our dire peril.

Pls do some searches on rape stats in Denmark, most illuminating.

Fully support your idea about 'commonwealth' solidarity.

And you think your not racist! In Pakistan a women is raped every two hours, in the US and women is raped every six minutes. The US has the highest sexual assault states in the OECD and has the highest % of people identifying themselves as Christians and the lowest Muslim in the OECD. Lets guess what your answer to that is mmm maybe it’s all the black people.

Poor John Stone. He didn't make it in the REAL World, so now he is all Hell-bent on promoting his pathetic ideology, too..wait for it..get even on multiculturalism, to supposedly justify his deep-seated, repressive obsession with a pathological mania which has been gnawing within, since he was a child.Heaven forbid. Another sociopath in-our-midst.
Have we ever wondered why so many of us take umbrage at the word Multiculturalism ?
There are so many facets to the word, the word takes some defining ?
The US, Canada, Britain and New Zealand have a polygot population - which speaks for itself as the success story of the Century. History, time and again replays it's self, pointing out to all and sundry we belong to a Global League of Nations. We are a Brotherhood of wholesome humanity. We just gonna-have-to-live with our neighbour.
Looking for scapegoats in the closet to string-up and lynch presumably died in the deep South decades ago, now we have someone in our midst who conviently overlooks the Holocaust, Genocide in Kosovo, Ruanda, Somalia, Uganda..the list gets longer. Have we learnt anything from History.
Any day, in the Super markets we see Australians from just about every part of the Globe, who have freely chosen to be part of our community, to rear their children here, to rejoice at sharing their ethenticity with us. To build a free, better Society. They didn't come here to undermine our way-of-life. Australia Day exemplifies that spirit. We should all embrace the pathos 25th January implies.
The latest outrage in the Tube of London is seemingly indicative Britons have not really warmed to their visitors. Segragating them in Ghettos. Ostracising them from mainstream life, to me is inviting apartheid. Thankfully, we have not reached that stage. The propaganda of hate, racial villification, and neo-nazism in Brixton should have convinced the Sociologists in the UK that some where they missed the point.
To all the Greeks, Italians, Irish, Chinese, Vietnamese, Turks, Fijians, etc my Family and I extend warm WELCOME to my home, in this wonderful Land of OZ.

Thank you Dalma

I too extend my welcome to all new Australians and my thanks to my many and varied friends without whom I would be quite literally a poorer and sadder person.

Go away all you wormtongues spin your twisted words of hate to yourselves - the only ones who take you seriously. (Apologies to Tolkien).

Ian,how do we distinguish and sort the nutters from the well balanced?Many of the Muslim terrorists are very well educated professionals.Outwardly they seem like normal people.If anyone is indocrinated by extemist thoughts from a young age ,no amount of logic will change their views.

Name one Muslim country that accepts and lives in harmony with other belief systems.Basically they believe that their system over rides all others,since it has been ordained by their god.They are also allowed to lie to their enemies to achieve their goals.They operate by double speak and the politics of confusion.

Even with a sizable population of moderates ,we will always have many power hungry fanatics who will continually stir the pot and gradually steal our freedoms.The theft of our freedoms has already begun.We are buckling under their demands under the cloak of our fear of being called racist.

I say we suspend Muslim immigration until they clearly define what their religion is all about.Islam is at war with itself,and why should we be the collateral damage?

The Christian people from Lebanon have assimilated and caused us few problems.This is about a belief system and not about race.

Dalma,
Just in case you had not heard, the Muslim community has already asked that they be able to set up their own court system to administer Shari'ah law within their communities in Australia. It has been rejected by the Government. They do not wish to be subject to our laws, but tolerate it. They want their own closed communities as they have done in France, Canada, England etc. They do not wish to assimilate under our permissive laws.

Quote by Dalma, "Ostracising them from mainstream life, to me is inviting apartheid. Thankfully, we have not reached that stage."

They themselves wish to seperate themselves from mainstream Ozzie life, by not making infidels their intimate friends.

Look at all the GB's coming from under their rocks to throw stones at another religion. What are you saying Philo that all Christians are committed secularist? Are you saying that all Muslims are Koran literalist?
Arjay said “say we suspend Muslim immigration until they clearly define what their religion is all about. Islam is at war with itself, and why should we be the collateral damage?” So the Christian have done this then? Trying checking up on the “Christian identity” group in the US. You also said “Basically they believe that their system over rides all others, since it has been ordained by their god.” Is that not what hard line Christians think as well? And if you bother to do a little history you’ll find the Islam as a very good record of living in harmony with other religions better then Christians. As for Philos comment about “Shari’ah law “ shows us some info please, after all our Koori friends have also asked for their own laws and courts. Most “Islamic” terrorism is really nationalist movements using the West’s creation and support of the state of Israel as fuel for the fire. Remember we were happy to use these groups when they were fighting our enemies

I am sure that John Stone is extremely happy with the rabid right-wing responses to his article, which have enabled him to express his racism by proxy.

I also just love the way that these folk assume they have the right to discriminate and exclude, simply because their forefathers invaded and occupied the territory a few years ago. It is a little bit like playing "king of the castle", sitting on a pile of dirt and rejecting the attempts of others to join you.

It all depends how you view the world, I suppose. Invasion, occupation, subjugation of the local population, mass expulsions, refugees, genocide, all have been part of the world's history. Just look at the Middle East, the Balkans, sub-Saharan Africa, and track the paths of the victors and the vanquished, the winners and the losers, the borders and the boundaries - everything has been in a constant state of flux, thanks to the "king of the castle" agenda.

In a civilized society, we are supposed to have thought these issues through, and to have rejected the blind, me-Tarzan philosophy in favour of one less barbaric, less territorial, less cave-man and more intelligent.

Thank you John Stone for blowing this theory out of the water. We clearly are still cavemen, reacting instinctively and rejecting anyone who doesn't share our skin colour, ethnicity or religion. You are a hero.

Pericles, I think we will always be what you call "cavemen". Fear of the unfamiliar is a natural part of us, one that we will never manage to root out. The best we can do is keep struggling to not let it rule us.

The socialists engineers are in denial.How could this multi-cultural utopia fail?It must be the fault of those Anglo Racists.

Muslim youth rampage around our cities bashing, stealing ,selling drugs,car rebirthing ,gang raping, bashing Anglo Saxions in an orgy of race hatred,all while on social security.

Now if any Anglo Saxon makes reference to this,they are now the racists for simply stating fact.

Pericles and Ian,walk the streets of Bankstown and Lakemba if you dare and experience the spitting and lewd remarks.We have a serious social time bomb,and just living in denial will see it fester into civil war.

Here, here Ian!

So true. The more reasoned version of BD's 'all men are evil' comments.

Boaz David
Sorry to be so slow in responding to your stinging rebuke.
You seem to imply that people who hold positions which you cannot support in any way should not be allowed to express themselves in any forum whatsoever. Indeed I get the impression that you feel that such people are beyond redemption and should be supressed by any means wheresoever they may appear. I may be naive and even, as you so delicately suggest, ignorant but you cannot kill an idea by suppressing it.
Yes National Socialism is repugnant and we all know that a cataclysmic war was fought to overthrow those who managed to establish it as a state system. But it still exists as a theory of social organisation and in Australia is allowed (better word than promoted) to pursue it's agenda, within the law. The fact that it is so marginal a force is indicative of the strength of the democratic traditions in this fair land.
When you seek to defend those traditions by suppressing those that you consider dangerous then truly you are no better than they. I wonder what you are so scared of. Do you really think that our institutions are so weak that a bunch of semi-literate ignoramamusi can bring us down?
Sure, bad luck may put you in the way of one their extreme actions but I have to say that it may be because you refused to listen, and failed to persuade.

The naive left wing believe they have no enemy and are willing to take anyone as their friends. Try asking a muslim into your house for a meal and you will realise if they can accomodate unclean pagans or if they are segreationalists.

Hateful few take Uncivil Liberties
Daily Telegraph, Peirs Akerman, 2 August 2005

Australian-born Muslim Wassim Doureihi of the extremist Islamist organisation Hizb ut-Tahrir has made the bizarre claim that Prime Minister John Howard's pleas not to incite hatred, not to preach intolerance, are an attack on the core of Islam world...He and Sheik Omran also want Australia to adopt shariah law under which homosexuals would be executed, thieves have their hands or feet lopped off and adultresses stoned to death, views which have not attracted adverse attention from such barrackers for multiculturalism as homosexual activist, ABC commentator and Fairfax writer David Marr.

At: http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1292&storyid=350280

Though personally I do not touch alcohol, or indulge in the things outlawed by shari'ah and would prefer a society that did abstain from the sins of the flesh. I happen to believe it is the responsibility of the individual to choose rather than the State to enforce morality laws.
_____________________________________

Between two worlds

The Age, Sushi Das, July 28, 2005

"Culture clash is part of life's journey for the children of most migrant families. It's not easy in Australia. Allah orders abstinence from alcohol but there's booze everywhere: at the barbecue, in the student bar. The Koran demands modest dress, but all around are singlets and mini-skirts. Islam forbids gambling, but pokies fuel the local economy. Exactly how do young Australian Muslims reconcile their faith with growing up in a permissive Western society?..."

At: http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/between-two-worlds/2005/07/27/1122143904716.htm

From Yahoo news... PARIS - Since the deadly terror bombings in London, Italian authorities have deported eight extremist Buddhist prayer leaders for not holding the proper residency papers. France has expelled two Hindus and plans to ship home another eight. And Britain has put many Jewish clerics under close watch as the country re-examines its power to deport them. Shaken by new terrorism on European soil, officials have stepped up a policy of deporting Christian clerics accused of whipping up hatred and violence in vulnerable, disenfranchised pockets of the continent's mostly moderate Mormon LDS community.

Did I read that right? Or could all these above belong to some other mysterious group that claims to be the "Religion of Peace"? The fact is that Hindu immigrants have a crime and welfare rate many times lower than that of Muslims in the UK. South American immigrants are plentiful in Europe, but are not filling the jails and raping women (must be that natural latino charm....). If you look across this small planet of ours, where you see conflicts, you see mostly followers of one man and one religion. Who can it be? Oh, my... who? Please tell me?

Have these people no clue? Is it ever their fault? They want laws to protect them from hearing truths that they do not want to hear, and to punish those who say things they do not like, and at the same time insist that the ideology of hate and anger that comes out of their places of worships, websites, schools and even booksstores is 'misunderstood' and not really representative of them.

Why would any country want people like these? If there is a segment of humanity whose beliefs consistently and demonstratively promote certain anti-social behaviors, social disruption and a general tendency to cause proplems, why oh why should not that group be excluded

Continued...

I am not saying that that members of that group should be individually expelled, because that would be wrong. However, Society has a right to reject those who will bring harm (no more, please!), and individuals like those posting here have a right to demand that members of an ideology that preaches so much hate and anger be held responsible for the actions of their fellow members.

What we must do is speakup - loudly, and tell these people they are wrong. We must say it again and again. We must tell them the things they don't want to hear, because they won't hear it from the multiculturalists. We must quote their writings and call their attention to their own accounts - and ask them how decent people can believe these things or honor people that did the horrible things that are written in their own histories. Everytime they open their mouths, we must lean across the table and whisper "No, you are wrong, and your prophet was a slaver and a torturer - lets go read the hadiths...". The good news is that these conversations usually don't last very long....

John AKA Kactus

Dear Col Gradolf

I've taken off the hobnail boots now :) sorry if I came across like that, I tend to at times.

All I'm saying, is that if we have a POV, then lets support it with some evidence, and work through it on the basis of how things really are.

I'm afraid I'm not one who will be very sympathetic to another viewpoint if it is not well founded on fact. I do actually change my own viewpoints, so be assured that last bit was not a statement of bigotry. I accept that on some matters we will only be able to achieve an 'agree to disagree' point.

Keep up the contributions, roll with the punches :

British prison population

Christian 85.8% Muslim 7.5% Buddhist 0.9% Sikh 0.7% Hindu 0.6% Jewish 0.4% Atheist 0.2%

If you get rid of all the Christians and Muslim then the crime rate would plumment. :-o

Kenny ,most Christians take their religions with a good dose of scepticism.Most Christians have an each way bet.They are not fanatical or even religious about their religion.They extract the good bits of being good to their fellow man and get on with the nuts and bolts of living i.e. working hard and enjoying life.

Not many Christians actually believe the BS of having a consciousness that surpasses this life,they just do the best that they can and if some god exists,well,that will be a bonus.

Fundamentalists Christians are miniscule in number compared to fundamentalists Muslims.The Muslim belief system is at odds with not only our beliefs but our open minds to new ideas and our diverse lifestyles.

I won't buckle to this ignorant totalitarian facist system of dictating to us, beliefs and lifestyle.

Muslims are either with us or against us,there are no grey areas of double speak and misinterpretation.

If we relent to their demands to achieve peace now,we are just enslaving our grandchildren to conflict, ignorance and subjugation.

Arjay, most “Christians” I know are not particularly religious, but I know enough potentially totalitarian exceptions to be wary. Similarly, most Muslims I know are not particularly religious. Same with the majority of Buddhists and Jews I know, for that matter. As with the Christians, it is something they grew up with rather than something that directs their whole lives. My Kurdish friend, Layak sums it up well when he calls himself a “passport Muslim”: it’s just a word on a document.

Is it true that “fundamentalist Christians are miniscule in number compared to fundamentalist Muslims”? I don’t know, and I really don’t think it is the issue. What concerns me are the good, reasonable, innocent people who are being labelled a threat to our society because of the way others interpret their religion. Judging Islam by Al Quaeda is like judging Roman Catholicism by the IRA. You really should talk with decent, intelligent Muslims about their disgust at the way their religion is manipulated by hardline thugs.

You say that you will not “buckle to this ignorant totalitarian fascist system of dictating to us, beliefs and lifestyle.” Neither will I, whether it be Muslim, Christian or atheist.

Ian I would like to congratulate you on your consistent and down to earth posts. I have grown weary of trying to reason with the extremist views placed by some of the posters to this forum. I hope that they are indeed a minority.

War and terrorism brings out worst in many people and this forum has clearly demonstrated what fear does to common sense - this sense becomes very rare indeed.

Australia has always been multicultural - when was it declared "official"? It is simply a fact of being a member of the species homosapiens - there are a lot of us and we hold many diverse opinions.

I too will never buckle to a totalitarian political system be it christian, atheist or muslim.

Thanks, Trinity.

>>Judging Islam by Al Quaeda is like judging Roman Catholicism by the IRA<<

That's neat, Ian. Whether or not it will penetrate the consciousness of the Christian evangelists on this forum we shall see, but possibly not while holding our breath.

It is quite sad to see how easily - and how often - we take an extreme example and paint an entire picture from it. I think we learn it, or perhaps assimilate it, from the behaviour of the media. When you are exposed to news-as-entertainment twentyfour hours of the day, it can become second nature to sensationalize everything we hear, the instant we hear it.

I recall observing during the reporting of the first London bombing how the story changed daily. First it was suicide bombers. Then it was not - they had found some timing mechanisms in the debris. Then it was suicide again, with overseas suspects. The real story only emerged over time, but at each phase we were treated to "expert opinion" that supported, and expanded upon, each of the theories.

It's as if we have such boring lives underneath it all, that we have to create some faux thrills for ourselves every so often...

"Faux thrills" Pericles I think you have discovered the zeitgeist on Club Evangelical. Mousy and timid in their day to day lives; they emerge to spread panic, mayhem and disparagement on the internet.

They certainly appear to have plenty of time on their hands.

I wish I had the same amount of time to ferret through religious tomes, check my thesaurus and write to the full limit on this site the way they do. Imagine having nothing better to do than think up insults like "The naive left wing" must've taken all day for that one.

All this because they are offended by a moderate, inclusive, tolerant and compassionate point of view.

Does John Stone wear a cardy do you think?

Just returned to the forum after two days of work and caring for grandchildren. Since arriving home this afternoon had to organise a barbecue for local street kids and set up a sound system for the rap band - "Sounds of the Street". Seems I have plenty of time on my hands to do important things.

It seems Trinity has identified herslf with the "naive Left wing" by her taking offence at my comment that there are those who do not see any enemy of our free civilisation. So I also must assume she does not imbibe alcohol, does not frequent Western Night clubs, her body is completely covered and wears a veil, and she bows five times a day to Allah. For unless she does she is a ligitimate target of militant Islam. However her very name is cursed by Allah.

ABU BAKR: "I am telling you that my religion doesn't tolerate other religion. It doesn't tolerate. The only one law which needs to spread - it can be here or anywhere else - has to be Islam."
"According to my religion, jihad is part of my religion." "Osama bin Laden is a great man." "I would be betraying my religion if I told students not to train in terrorist camps." "There are two laws - Australian law and Islamic law....

One nation one culture in 2040 AD.
..there are 23million Muslims in Europe, about 5 per cent of the total population. This figure has more than doubled in three decades and the growth rate is accelerating. Non-Muslim Europeans, on the other hand, are declining absolutely in numbers.

Meanwhile, the Middle East and North Africa have the second highest fertility rate in the world and Europe the lowest. Notwithstanding tougher rules on immigration, something like one million to 1.5 million new immigrants come to Europe legally and illegally each year. Probably most are from the Middle East and North Africa, mostly Muslim.

Similarly, within Europe the Muslim populations are young and just about to enter their child-bearing years. One-third of France's five million Muslims are under 20, one-third of Germany's four million Muslims are under 18 and one-third of Britain's 1.6 million Muslims are under 15. So while France's Muslims, for example, are only 8 per cent of the population, they are a much higher percentage of the cohort about to enter child-bearing years. Most importantly, the Muslim birthrate in Europe is more than three times the non-Muslim birthrate. By 2015, Europe's Muslim population will at least double while its non-Muslim population will decline by at least 3.5per cent. If Turkey joins the EU, these trends get another big kick along

Interesting article in The Age, extracts follow
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/dinkydi-aussie-muslims/2005/08/03/1122748694946.html

Dinky-di Aussie Muslims Shepparton by Geofff Strong

About a decade ago, this community of more than 50,000 in the Goulburn Valley began to be settled by Arab migrants, many of them from Iraq, refugees from the first Gulf War and followers of the Shiite strand of Islam.

Neo-conservatives like to blame teachers for most social ills, but really they are people who know the importance of social cohesion. I suspect the sight of girls wearing the hijab grates on many Australians teachers, but here the primary schools have created a sense of inclusiveness by designing hijabs in the school colours.

Iraqis have bought houses and started businesses. One of them who has opened a kebab shop has gained local esteem by providing free meals to the homeless. Charity is, after all, one of the five pillars of Islam.

A few weeks ago I was interviewing students at King Khalid Islamic College in Coburg and noted they referred to themselves as "Australian Muslims", but it wasn't until later I realised what this meant. Monash University academic Dr Shahram Akbarzadeh said new distinct forms of Islam are emerging. "In Australia, for example, over the last 20 years a different Islamic identity has been evolving where it is easy to be a devout Muslim and loyal to Australia. One of the thinkers behind this has been (the Sydney-based mufti) Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali."

He said that while all Muslims wanted the ideal of sharia law, what people such as Hilali had recognised was that most of the important elements of sharia such as freedom to practise Islam, basic safety and freedom from persecution and discrimination were already in place in the Australian legal system. He said that Australian Muslims had more freedoms and were closer to the sharia ideal than in Islamic states such as Egypt and Pakistan.

Geoff Strong is a staff writer.

philo , re abu bakr and the "two laws". he did say that this was a problem . he also sounded perplexed as to how this "problem" should or could be accomodated from his own perspective in australia .

he certainly sounded genuine and was very frank in what he said .
i suppose the question is whether a continued dialogue with him putting the views [equally frankly] of the majority of other australians will bring positive results and a lessening of tensions . i think it cannot do any harm .
i don't believe believe cutting down the chances of communication by ostracising abu bakr will do anything to help solve the "two laws problem" that it appears we have to face up to .

So who is more of a threat to our society? Islamic terrorists or the multicultists hellbent on increasing the islamic population?

Bring it down from within I tell ya.

What we have to fear is a bunch of psychopathic nutters who may be Islamic, Christian, Fascists, atheists or even rabid aunties; in fact any fruit cake who thinks that violence is the way to go towards achieving whatever goal it is they think they want. The use of religion to justify a cause is one of the most common methods to justify violence.

Davo please make a post when you have come down from the trees long enough to achieve a more extensive perspective of the very complex situation we have in this world.

As for Abu Bakr - he is one of the nutters other Muslims must wish never existed. He is one of the extremists of Islam who in no way is indicative of the average Muslim. To lay blame upon all of Islam because of his extremist position is very ignorant indeed.

To promote him as being representative of all muslims is to promote further hatred and of course playing into one of the goals of the current crop of terrorists.

Such a point of view is very naive and does nothing towards dealing with the reality of terrorism.

Well Ian, free thinking Muslims ,Christians ,Jews,Buddists, agnostics and aethiests must unite and march in our streets to demonstrate our solidarity in allowing all beliefs and philosophies freedom to exist without the fear of violence or coercion.

Unless we tackle this problem in it's infancy and get all sides to agree to a harmonic existence,it will be too late once violence ensues , our tribal instincts will come to the fore and it will become all out war.

Our Govts are both limp wristed and almost comatose.They are walking the tight rope of maximising votes without offending anyone.We need decisive action now that puts pressure on the fanatical Muslims to agree that their philosophy/beliefs is one of many that must tolerate and accept other religions or beliefs.What many of these fanatics are preaching is treason.It should be against the law.

If they can't agree to this then we just draw up special legislation requiring them to emigrate to the Muslim country of their choice.It would be in our interests to pay them to leave our country since the economic and social grief would far outweigh any input they would offer.

Just give them a choice of goal or paid emigration.

Arjay, I agree with what you are saying here: decent Australians of all religious and cultural backgrounds must stand together to defend solidarity, tolerance and secular democracy.

Treason should not go unpunished. In the case of advocates of terrorism who have citizenship of another country, I assume you are suggesting something like Blair’s proposals in Britain. This seems like a good move to me. People who migrate to Australia only to set themselves up violently against our society should not be made welcome.

If there turned out to be “home grown” offenders, however, then we would have to find a different approach. Expulsion would be pointless if they retained the right to return as citizens, and I could never advocate stripping Australian citizenship from anyone Australian born. That in itself would be totalitarian: we would be violating our own values.

As Australians we love diversity we can choose to adopt for ourselves. We love the foods of many cultures, but everone does not have the same taste. We love the diversity of clothing, except when persons cover their face, eyes and hands; because these are the physical forms of personal communication. We love the diversity of skin colour as we are not a single ethnic nation. We love the diversity of music and litrature and arts, as it inhances our world view.

Australians being free and independent of mind do not appreciate being controlled by outside authority, or bullied by unpalatable laws. We can and have accomodated Muslims since Australia was founded and we had no problem with them because their religion was their choice and they practised it privately. Recent Arabic cultures have arrived here that not only brought their rich culture but some have brought the tribal fanaticism of their exclusive religion. A religion that cannot assimilate into a nation of free choice, and diverse opinion. It is these particular persons we need to isolate, educate, or remove.

Wow Philo - excellent post. I feel now as if I can communicate with you - I truly hope so. I can't believe I am writing this. I must be dreaming.

I better read it again maybe I misinterpreted your thoughts. Nope

I agree it is difficult to communicate with someone covered head to toe in cloth - however, I would never go so far as to ban people from dressing how they choose - that would be too totalitarian.

"Recent Arabic cultures have arrived here that not only brought their rich culture but some have brought the tribal fanaticism of their exclusive religion."

"SOME" of their tribal fantacism". This is true. Not all middle eastern people are fanatics.

"It is these particular persons we need to isolate, educate, or remove."

My only quibble here is what you mean by 'remove'. If they are born here they can hardly be deported.

I like that you said educated - but how? I mean there's educate and there's 'educate'.

But it appears that you don't see all Muslims as evil? Am I correct in saying this?

Xena,
You rightly conclude I do not see all Muslim people as evil. It is those who cannot blend into our Australian identity and value our social relationships and laws; who want Australia exclusively for Allah under Allah's laws that pose a conflict we will inevitably confront on a bigger scale if we do not deal with this attitude now.

Such attitudes are espoused in the Hebrew Torah defined in the monotheistic laws of Moses and reiterated in the monotheistic teachings of the Qur'an of Islam. Both religions are derived from Abraham, but unlike Abraham 1950 BC who was promised land he would inherit, both Moses / Aaron 1300 BC and Mahomet / Abu Bakr 600 AD felt it was God's law they fulfilled by eradicating other religions from their land by civilian terror and violence. Both these religions have a strong nationalistic State / territory basis in exclusive religious law and exclude or suppress non-believers.

On education of the Islamists who are born here, since they have allusions in Jesus the Messiah in their writings, I believe education could start with exposure to Jesus son of Mary's teachings and accommodating attitudes toward Gentile non-believers.

YES Xena, of course you are correct.. I'm sure I can answer for Philo and myself (he will answer when he can)..
We (religious nutters) do NOT regard 'All Muslims' as evil. In fact your post and Philo's post reflect more of where were are actually 'AT'... which is why I roll my eyes when sometimes I see your rather 'bite us in the bum' type attacks.

The problem is 350words "little girl" :) (revenge is sweet)....
We speak in major broad brush strokes.
My remarks are aimed at policy changes, not at individuals.

You must think we spend all our day patrolling the streets looking at anyone of middle eastern appearance so we can throw something at them or rip off their hijab eh :).... der.

We love the food (specially me) and enjoy the rich diversity, I didn't take the time to learn 3 languages besides english without having a respect and tolerance and loving attitude to people of other races.

We just don't want our own culture and law destroyed, over-ran or extinguised by minorities. And with that in mind, I seek and urge an effort to codify more precicely an "Australian" culture which takes the predominant traditions into consideration. My vision of this is more of the 'Judao/Christian' than ethnicity, and is more inclusive than a race based idea. But out of respect to our pioneers, and our population the Anglo/Europeans and our indigenous people should figure prominantly in such a codification.

http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/poetry.htm <== worth a look

And you'll retake the Rhineland.....?

One of your earlier post on this subject...
"If only Kenny and others, you realized the depth of absolute racism/discrimination inherrant in Islam, you might catch a glimpse of where I'm coming from on social policy."

The fact is your a fundamentalist religious fanatic who wishes to have your moral codes reflected into the laws of not only this land but others as well. You support and take part in trying to change the “Culture” of other Countries. Why are your activities different then Muslims? You seek a monoculture by your own admission and actions. The fact is you to wish to change our multicultural secular liberal democracy. Remember what this thread is about, people wishing to change our way of life and you should count yourself among them

Lets play name that book of intolerance.

This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness

Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter.

Now lets play name that book of tolerance

Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion

For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind

Kenny,
I suggest for a moment you look at some reality. The very fact that you post on this forum is an endeavour to change opinion to the way you feel should be the world. So do not try the guilt line, "The fact is you to wish to change our multicultural secular liberal democracy."

I ask: What Christian fundamentalist Nations or States exist that you identify as intolerable? What do you find intolerable in Christian ethics?

I ask: What Muslim fundamentalist Nations or States exist that you identify as intolerable?

Quote from your post in speaking to B_D,"The fact is your a fundamentalist religious fanatic who wishes to have your moral codes reflected into the laws of not only this land but others as well. You support and take part in trying to change the “Culture” of other Countries. Why are your activities different then Muslims? You seek a monoculture by your own admission and actions. The fact is you to wish to change our multicultural secular liberal democracy. Remember what this thread is about, people wishing to change our way of life and you should count yourself among them."

I suggest you attend a Christian cultural celebration sometime. I attend large churches where over 40 ethnic languages are spoken, where people dress in their national costume, and at community feasts each contribute their national cuizine.

The Christian faith should not contravene cultural heritage of language, food, and dress. It does not enforce Arabic /Hebrew or Greek upon believers to gain a clear understanding of the message. In fact Christian missionaries have deliberately tried to leave the wholesome aspects of culture intact, and continually update their language to better communicate to over 3,600 local language groups.

In fact a retired missionary friend attending my Church who worked in West Irian where men wore a gourd, followed their dress sense so he could be one with them as a man. Christianity should not destroy culture it should enhance.

Well Said Philo (and thanx for your encouraging remarks at times :)

Kenny.. you have a serious problem, its called 'I have my (warped) opinion and I'm going to IMPOSE it on the Christian scriptures no matter what the contextual cost.

PHilo, on the gourd thing, that would be something :) I recall my first encounter with the Penan of Sarawak.. was at a Deacons school being run for the Kelabit people.. all dressed kinda western.. but suddenly these guys were in the pastors house.. lap laps.. bare bums bones, in the ears.. scratches allll over them, (straight from the jungle) real cool hair cuts, long ears... wow .. I've got a tremendous photo of them, a classic.

Our mission never tried to 'dress' the locals in 'our' western clothes. The reality is, that once they come in contact with the government (the malaysian) they tend to adopt such dress code by themselves because they don't want to be 'seen' to be 'backward' by those who spend the development dollar.

Kenny's biggest problem is bias and ignorance.. he doesn't seem to know much so makes up for it with noise :) bless u Kenny.. u make us look good mate *grin* (yes... I'm stirrrrrring you)

Philo, there is nothing quite so heartwarming, as to be with a number of different ethnic groups, but all united under the one Lord.
When I see people at Bethlehem, (on news or doco's) and hear them singing the same Choruses we sing here.. u realize how big is our family. Quite touching.

But..on TOPIC... I'd like to see the following: (for all schools)

-Introduction to early Australian history and ethos (poetry, prose, history, Art,Song) using it not just to show our heritage, but also to point out the weaknesses.
-Essays on particular characters.. (Dog on Tuckerbox etc, background to Waltzing Matilda)

-Civics/ Cultural manners taught
-etc

Kenny...I'm in a jovial mood 2night.. so I'll waste a post to bug you once more...
You watch SOUTHPARK at all ? If you do, you will know what happens to "Kenny" in each eposide.... (be afraid.. very afraid)....

I should address some of your accusations from previous posts I guess...

Religious fanatic -Moral codes reflected in the laws-Change cultures...
Guilty on all except the first :)
I want nothing more than my democratic right to see 'my' version of society reflected in our laws. Do I need to apologise for that ? Hardly.
Change Cultures.
well when people come of their own free will and desire to know Christ, and His teaching rubs off, and they release their slaves, giving them land etc.. my goodness, that is real cultural imperialism right ? its 'Christian fanaticism'... we canNOT have those pesky slaves released now CAN we ? :)

and of course, to liberate them from the fear of evil spirits who would have them bury twin babies alive in jars under their houses, with salt in their mouths to starve to death.. my GOODness... we must never see that kind of thing changed..

and specially the fear of bad omens which used to cause them to abandon their nearly ripe rice fields to the monkeys, and virtually starve for 6months of the year.... hmm we must STAMP OUT all this 'christianity' right ? :)

Monoculture ? Well my version is rather embracing, as Philo indicated. Many ethnicities, one Lord. But in terms of culture, I would promote the "JudaoChristian" background, and the Anglo/European cultural prevalence.(which includes a very big portion of our population)

boaz_david , i wonder if you think george bush and his administration represent good products of judao/christian teaching ?
do they read the same bible as the rest of us?? is their interpretation of the 10 commandments the same as yours ?
no wonder so many australians are cynical about our present "leaders."

Boaz, you make the odd delightful slip.

"I want nothing more than my democratic right to see 'my' version of society reflected in our laws."

I hate to break this to you, but no such democratic right exists. You have a right to vote for someone who reflects your values and your views, but that's all.

You have odd views too on the impact of ideas on society. You took Col Gradolf to task for his views that "as soon as we try to suppress unpalatable positions we are weakened", saying "Hmm.. so we are weakened by 'supressing the idea of National Socialism'"

The answer is yes, Boaz, we are substantially disadvantaged if we somehow pretend that National Socialism didn't exist, and don't try to understand how it came about, and why it infested an entire culture. Hiding away and pretending the world isn't the way the world is, and insisting instead that you are in sole possession of the "right" answers puts you firmly into the extremist, fundamentalist category.

Have a nice day.

Pericles....

350 words me boy.... its not easy to expand to the desired level on each point one makes..

Slip ? what the heck is the diff between voting for someone who stands for 'my' version of society and me wanting a democractic right to see my version.... etc ? I don't see the need for the pedantry I think people got what I was meaning.

On the supression of ideas.

I should have been more specific, and put it a different way. (knowing that the predators are lurking :)

My intention, however clumsily I expressed it, was that we do need to discuss..and make value jugdements on ideas. By looking at them, and seeing how they worked out in reality/history. But supress active support for such things(current anti terror laws are a case in point)

Hitlers misunderstanding and 'isogesis' on Jesus cleansing the temple is a classic. In such a case, we can point out how a misinterpretation of a text can have catastrophic results in the world.

I'm quite comfortable to have historic Christendom scrutinized in the same way. In fact I would applaud it.

But I would draw the line at people standing in the street advocating or writing in publications about mass murdering the remaining Jews etc based on Mein Kampf.
That kind of thing should be supressed or it could have serious consequences. I don't see how supressing such sentiments diminishes us at all, in fact it enhances us

Philo and B_D
Where to begin, I like most rational person find it very difficult talking to irrational people like your else. I’m sure you have difficult relating to me also.
Your questions , Vatican, Absolutism, Iran. As for Christian cultural celebrations a few points some churches/temples of many faiths are quite broad that’s what I’m arguing for i.e. multiculturalism. Many practitioners are so able to attend interfaith calibrations. I’m arguing that this is the benefit of multiculturalism would you like to see a monoculture at your cultural celebrations. I suggest you reread the topic. B_D has used this thread to try and tell everybody his faith is true and everybody else is wrong (sounds just like the Muslim chaps he is going on about) when he should do a bit a research into the person who wrote the topic. B_D’s wife would not be welcome here if it was up to that bloke.
Religion and culture are difficult things to separate so not only does local culture put flavor into imported religions but so do imported regions effect local culture. You brand of religion may not but Mel Gibson’s does. None of the major faiths systems are homogenous. I won’t even both with B_D issues because he is so far down loopy lane he can’t see the difference between fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Christians. Part two later I did notice none of you played the game

kenny,

"B_D has used this thread to try and tell everybody his faith is true and everybody else is wrong"

That is so unlike B_D. LOL

Cheers
R0bert

Kenny,
So you are arguing for: "Many practitioners are so able to attend interfaith calibrations." We get the image here of a medical practitioner administering doses of their bacterial culture upon the unsuspecting. Dangerous stuff!!

I ask how many atheists (inter beliefs) also contribute to the richness of an interfaith celebration? To celebrate, all those present need to be applauding the same values, the same beliefs. One united group all enjoying the same freedom of expression. This is celebration, not a bunch of atheists endeavouring to shout slogans above the crowd to stop the celebrating of their faith in a God of hope and joy.

RObert,
I could not have guessed you were telling B_D that he is so wrong; you are the only one with the enlightened truth. We'd bow to your superior wisdom if only we could find it in your posts.

The claim that 'multiculturalism works' is a rhetorical nonsense coming from the naive or those with the most to lose.

I do not believe in a 'multi-cultural' Australia. I like a 'White' Australia with a fairly significant minority population of diverse culture, with the exclusion of Muslims culture. And I mean a total exclusion of Islamic culture... if possible.

And why do people compare fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Christians?

(This thread is more relevant to my other post. The problem with so many threads with similar topics.)

I reckon the "war on terrorism" would end much quicker if we sent John Stone to a deserted island where the only other inhabitants are monkeys and goats. Logic (his) suggests he'd eventually have to befriend one of these cohabitants to ensure the others are promptly deported. It would make wonderful reality TV. My bet is that he'd be naturally attracted to goats. Don't ask me why. Anyone else got any other [likely] social and cultural scenarios that would occur on Stone’s island?

Boaz, this simply won't do.

>>I don't see the need for the pedantry I think people got what I was meaning.<<

You call it pedantry, I call it clarity. There is actually a substantial difference between having the right to vote and the "right" to a society that is built to your order.

It is all of a piece with your backdown on the suppression of ideas. You stated, quite specifically:

"Hmm.. so we are weakened by 'supressing the idea of National Socialism' ? -it is surely 'repugnant"

Here you were incontrovertibly referring to the idea of National Socialism. You belatedly see the ridiculousness of this concept, and when challenged, change it to "advocating or writing in publications about mass murdering the remaining Jews etc based on Mein Kampf."

Do you not see a pattern here? You glibly defend yourself by asserting that we should all "get what you are meaning", but why on earth should we have to guess?

And as for "350 words me boy.... its not easy to expand to the desired level on each point one makes.. ", if you cannot make yourself clear in a single sentence, what hope do you have in a lengthy essay?

The biggest problem I have with your posts is not the candy-coated Christianity, or even the occasionally vicious swipes at religions you happen to disagree with, but the utter sloppiness of your thinking - every time you are challenged, you pretend you were talking about something else entirely.

John Stone generalizes about evil to the point of meaninglessness, and then pours it in a bucket called "multiculturalism". Which allows him to propose all kinds of general punishments for all kinds of innocent and law-abiding people.

It is a familiar pattern, isn't it? It isn't pedantry to point it out, either, it is searching for logic, clarity and meaning.

One Culture,

President Robert Mugabe has unleashed a tsunami-like wave of destruction upon Zimbabwe’s urban poor, who also happen to be those who generally do not support his ruling Zanu-PF.

The demolitions commenced on 23 May under the auspices of “Operation Murambasvina” (Restore Order). About 300,000 homes have been demolished leaving 1.5 million homeless. Three children died after being crushed in their homes. Others have died from exposure. 30,000 people have been arrested.

The world was quite oblivious to this tragedy until images of bulldozers, security police, burning homes, and mothers and children sitting amid rubble were secretly recorded and smuggled out of Zimbabwe.

The extent of the devastation is now well known. What is still unclear is what is really happening in Zimbabwe, for other details indicate that this operation is indeed much more than a badly handled urban renewal project and really is a Mugabe/Zanu-PF war against opponents. It appears that, in the light of the recent Velvet, Rose, Orange and Cedar “revolutions”, Mugabe and his Zanu-PF are merely engaging in a little “revolution prevention” by shattering, impoverishing, dispersing and possibly even killing the opposition before it can get organised.

Three years ago, when Didymus Mutasa was Zanu-PF’s Secretary for Administration and in charge of food distribution, he commented regarding food distribution to the opposition, “We would be better off with only 6 million, with our own people who support the liberation struggle. We don’t want all these extra people.”

In April 2005, after his election victory, Mugabe appointed Didymus Mutasa to be his Minister for State Security. This role puts Mutasa in charge of the Central Intelligence Organization (secret police) and in charge of Operation Murambasvina.

On top of this, Mutasa’s Ministry for State Security is now in charge of food distribution, although Mutasa claims that there are no food shortages in Zimbabwe. When a journalist challenged Mutasa with reports from Zimbabwean Catholic Archbishop Pius Ncube that people are starving to death in Bulawayo, Mutasa replied, “The cleric [Ncube] has a psychological disease and he needs to have his head examined because he is a liar.”
[Cont]

TimesOnLine Christina Lamb reports: those left homeless by Operation Murambasvina are “herded into re-education camps and told they have a housing plot only if they swear allegiance to the party of President Robert Mugabe. “Those who refuse are loaded into trucks and dumped in remote rural areas, far from their homes, where food is scarce. Human rights workers say they are being left to die in a deliberate strategy by the Mugabe regime to exterminate opponents.”

Another Zimbabwean writer commented, “Indeed there are stories coming out of people being trucked to re-education camps. We saw such camps during the early stages of the farm invasions where farm workers were exposed to this political re-education. Now it seems the same technique is being used on the urban poor. People are forced to recant and become members of the ruling party before they receive guarantee of a new home or food relief. It’s almost impossible to credit that this is happening in Zimbabwe in 2005 but all evidence is pointing that way: a Pol Pot type operation to empty the towns and force the poorest of the poor back into the countryside where they will starve to death without government assistance, which we know they will not get unless they chant the party slogans and sing the party songs.”

Harare correspondent Dumisani Muleya said in an opinion piece published in Business Day (Johannesburg, 22 June), “The scenario is almost like a theatrical revival of Mao Zedong’s Cultural Revolution or Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge rampage. The political philosophy and motives are similar.”

Zim Online reported, “A Zim Online news crew touring Caledonia Farm, converted into a holding camp for thousands of families evicted from their shanty homes in and around Harare, met several agents of the state’s dreaded spy Central Intelligence Organisation (CIO).

They said they were at the camp to ‘monitor the mood’ of the families and also to keep a record on who visits them especially non-governmental organisations or members of the main opposition Movement for Democratic Change party, adding that this was being done only as a security precaution.”
[cont]

Philo, what's with the Mugabe essay?

I presume, given your previous posts ("[i]t is these particular persons we need to isolate, educate, or remove"), you are presenting the Zimbabwe story as encouragement to those who would like to ethnically cleanse our Australian society. It is without doubt the logical conclusion to the argument that John Stone presents.

It is clear that Mr Mugabe has come to the limits of his tolerance of multiculturalism in Zimbabwe, and is doing something that, presumably, is the envy of John and his fellow-travellers. Encourage one sector to leave by taking their livelihood (farms), and then bulldoze the houses of the urban dwellers. We might have to be a little more subtle here - perhaps just herd them all into "relocation camps" for a while, don't bother with the rule of law or anything as trivial.

But I might be wrong, and you are saying something different. Please explain.

Kenny

Hang on mate! Lay off BOAZ_David. He's a real character!

So what if he is pedantic, fixated and obsessional? I'd wager that he's probably a nice bloke. I bet he doesn't go around killing innocent people in the name of Jesus Christ. I bet that he doesn't deliberately cause harm to others.

Have a closer look at all of the threads in which B_D participates. Sure it is predicatable what he will say - and posters almost always bite! Just imagine OnLine Opinion without the B_Ds of the world. There probably wouldn't be a lot of discussion.

B_D teaches me heaps even though I rarely agree with him. He triggers my thinking and he challenges my brain. I think that's great - even though at times I would love to ring his neck for some of the things that he says.

Kenny - I don't know the bloke and I am certainly not starting up a B_D fan club. I can assure you that there are two other regular posters who drive me nuts [far more than B_D] with their intellectual sarcasm - which of course, is the lowest form of wit! Just about everything they say smells of intellectual superiority. I read what they say but I have stopped taking their bait - vis a vis, I do not reply to them. Rather, I simply ignore bad behaviour.

What's the stuff about B_D's wife? I do not get the connection. Is it appropriate?

Cheers
Kay

Kay, I think B_D has said elsewhere that his wife is asian which is probably what is being refered to.

Philo, you are right there is not a lot of enlightened truth or superior wisdom coming from this quarter. I wouldn't mind a dose of the superior wisdom stuff but would rather get my truth by learning and testing it. The problem with the "enlightened" kind is that those who think that they have it don't see much need to keep testing it against the world they live in.

Clearly I don't agree with B_D in regard to the truth or relevance of his faith. I don't think that means that I am indicating that I am the only one with enlightened truth or even that I have yet found the answer. I have looked enough at B_D's world view to decide that it does not convince me.

Think of it as determining that the world is not flat on the way to finding out the diameter. You don't have to have the final answer to work out that some proposed answers don't hold up.

R0bert

Perhaps instead of Muslim’s we could just bring in the Christians and Jewish people from the middle east and African.!? Would they be more like Aussie's ? I can assure you there is little difference in the cultures whatever religion people are. Most are conservative, women are marginalised because of difficult economic conditions and the societies are patriarchal - Christian, Jewish and Muslim. I have worked and socialised with a variety of ethnic groups and religions and religion is only partially responsible for culture. Of course extremely conservative Muslims (and observant Jews and how about strict Christians) won't fit into mainstream Australian culture, how could they all that boozing and loutish behaviour ! IS THAT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT because that's the only thing 'AUSTRALIAN' my husband can't do as a Muslim ??

So what sort of Australian culture are we talking about exactly ? I regularly see the local Lebs at BBQ's in local parks Muslims and Christians (and Africans, Pakistanis, Indians and all the rest). I often hear of the local Muslim lads (and girls) going fishing and to the footy. Someone 'please explain' to me exactly what sort of Australian culture is it that Muslim's can't fit into ? If it only drinking and getting plastered on Friday and night and the rest of that silly behaviour I am sad to call myself a second /third generation Anglo Aussie.

Very strict Muslims will never mix much with other non-Muslims or non-strict Muslims. These people are a very small minority. And for the record an anglo friend of mine's daughter was attending Hillsong Church in Sydney's northwest and was told she should only be friends with similiar strict Christians. I am not against any religion as it brings about good morals and values in the right proportions, but these comments are sounding very 'un-Australian' to me. I say egalitariansim is the key to our culture. Treat others fairly and equally no matter what their background rich poor, black, white and that goes for all who live here. They're the values I fight for.

ms malaise , you hit the nail on the head . We must get rid of all the relgious extremists - christian , jew or muslim - Australians [and most of the world] don't want them, THEIR STRICT AND ARCHAIC RELIGIOUS FAITHS have, and will just cause more UNECESSARY UGLY PROBLEMS, we can live happily forever without them.

kartiya,
I see you suggest to get rid of the Jews, Muslim, Christian. I ask how do you intend to get rid of them? With hydrogen peroxide, asetone etc, could we have more information where you live as you may qualify under the new terrorist laws. Instead of propagating an agenda of violence I suggest you modify your language. How are you intending to change society to get rid of them?

Philo , whoops , i had better rephrase with your own words on Aug 7th ,"isolate ,educate or remove" . Now how are you going to do that??

kartiya,
My vision was: Unskilled migrants or with no English speaking skills should spend at least 6 months in special accomodation centres until they learn the language and adapt to the Australian culture. This both isolates and educates. If they are not able to learn the language or adapt to life in Australia, they should be removed to a society into which they can assimilate.

I note you want to remove people on religious grounds from society. I ask to where? How? Jews to Israel I suppose, Muslims to Middle East, and Christians to Europe. So you want to go back 250 years to a former time? Or do you mean eradicate Jews like Hitler, Christians and Muslims like USSR tried? I suggest you might run an opinion poll first to gain popular support for your eradication programme.

Philo , whoops , i had better rephrase with your own words on Aug 7th ,"isolate ,educate or remove

Sneekepete - which planet are you on?

I agree with John Stone - and hopefully something shall be done by this incompetent ethically poor federal government.

We are used laughed and sneered at by migrants in our midst.

WHen I am told of a woman who has lived 67 years in Lakemba area who went into a local Muslim shop and was ordered out by the owner because "you don't belong here"? let alone the horrific crime and violence introduced into this country by Asian and Lebanese.

The welfare system that our predecessors and ourselves have paid for is seen as a right by these people, the way of life that our Fathers fought for being destroyed. I sit in my car at Sydney Town Hall and wonder whether I am in Asia (where my son lives)as I observe the mostly asian people crossing the road and circulating in the area. Many times when back in my hometown of Sydney I wonder whether I am the minority race.

I go into a post office and it is staffed mainly by Indians and Asians who are abrupt in manner and again am reminded of the loss of Australian "life" in OUR Country.

I am deeply, deeply saddened by what I see in Australia over the last 20 years and the poor standard of Politicians - federal and state that mismanage what was once a great country with so much potential.

Been reading this thread with great interest, as a newcomer.

Let me state, at the outset I am a christian who takes the Bible seriously and studies it continually, to glean from it Christ's teachings on the way of peace.

Sadly, the history of teh christian church is neither guiltless or bloodless. I subscribe to "One Mediator Between God and Man - Christ Jesus," not the Pope or the GURU or the Imam. At the same time I do not attempt to force my beliefs upon others, though I frequently have all kinds of other beliefs forced upon me - JW, LDS, Aetheists, Agnostics, Communists, Socialists, Neo Nazis, racists etc.

I agree, we Aussies are all "immigrants" to this land, even our Indigenous cultures have comoe form "overseas." I have worked extensively with Aboriginal communities across this land, my eldest daughter is deeply involved, today, in drug & alchol rehabilitation up in Arnhem Land. racism against these people, indeed any foreign cultures, is to me repugnant. I hate IT with a passion.

I also apppreciate deeply being born in this country to second generation immigrants from Nazism's First Reich(Kaiser Wilhem I - 1834) and Russian Czarist Progroms (1860-1880). I also applaud the right for very citizen of this country to express their views irrespective of that view. Thank God people can, that way we can dialogue with them, hopefully moderating extremisms of all kinds - pro and anti-multiculturalism or whatever.

I guess what I am trying to say here is we NEED to debate these issues and look at contingency plans - which means looking at "best case" and "worst case" scenarios, and all in between. This is surely not Racism?

If it is not, why then, the vitriol and name-calling? C'mon folks! We can do better, eh?

Flezzey

Continued...
I might add, am I third generation born here, but a third generation Anzac who has fought and literally shed blood for this nation. I believe I and my forefathers fought for this freedom of speech and culture. I served in the armed forces with personnel of many different cultures, including moderate Muslims from Kuwait, Indonesians, South Pacific Islanders, PNG personnel, Malays & Singaporeans, Japanese, US, Canadians, Ghurkas etc etc. We got along just fine as we were working toward the same goals - defence and stability in Sth East Asia.

I spent much time in Indonesia, and loved teh people, was treated wonderfully there. Even so, I was able to determine some pretty savage underlying attitudes in the men of that culture, where so many women are second-class citizens, beasts of burden, sent out to work as prostitutes whilst their husbands sit around most of the day. Are all like that? No! Are many like that? Yes!

Am I racist for observing and reporting such? Am I racist for saying I have seen Indonesian maps listing Australia as "South Java?" Am I racist for reporting that I and friends have witnessed Indonesian troops engaging in acts of genocide against the native Irianese population in Irian Jaya - East Java or West Papua?

Is it racist to talk about what one has witnessed in East Timor - more Indonesian atrocities? At least they are not committed in teh name of Islam, rather in the name of Indon Gov't - but Indon is the largest Islamic nation. Whilst co-operating with Indonesia in matters of defence, aid, finances, forensic science, disaster relief etc etc, is the Australian Govt racist in also having a defence plan drawn up in case of Indon aggression or invasion?

I think not, it is what one may call "due process" or "contingency planning." Indonesia certainly has had its plans in recent times.I can tell you, first hand, I have no desire to live under Indonesian Military Law.

Surely we can discuss the possibility of Islamic Law in Australia, without resorting to need of name-calling and sarcasm?

As a chinese new immigrant, partly I support the idea of the writer. Why we come to australia? The most important reason is the kernel of ideology. Logic, logos, contract, peace, democracy and the most important freedom.

But we have to differentiate what is the kernel of ideology. The kernel is not culture, not language, even not religion. I believe the constitution of australia involving the whole kernel of ideology.

So the best way to syncretize new immigrants is not asking us to pass an english test. I believe a constitution test in our native language is far more better. Just like the muti-languages driving test.

Immigrants can feel the respect and warm. So we have more will to understand how to be a responsible australian.

i think that John Stone has a good point in moderation not all muslims are terrorists so not all deserve persecution. there is a shortage of skills in Australia so to halt immigration completley is utter madness only islamic terrorists are the people we are fighting this so called"War" against so any not provern to have links to terrorism could be useful to Australia's economy a fair go is what is needed and not to generalise a minority.