Pericles
Thanks for that, and I certainly don’t mean to come across as exasperated. I have been reading the discussion with great interest, one reason why I have tried to refrain from posting any responses (so far at least...).

replies to many

Tim, what, specifically, do you think should be criticized about the US death penalty?

And, yes, the US abolition movement is active, large, well funded and organized. Even though there is no organized or funded pro death penalty movement, just a few individuals like myself, death penalty support in the US is in the 74-80% range.

I don't think that the Australian government is having any adverse effect on death penalty support in your neighboring countries.

Tim, you wrongly imply that deterrence questions don't apply to Singapore or Vietnam, because of the way they impose capital punishment. You are in error. It is the fact that they do impose executions that, specifically, does make it relevant.

Tim fails to mention that there is a lot of death penalty support throughout the world, even in those counties, like in the EU or Sout America, where the governments lead anti death penalty efforts. He failed to distinguish between government opposition to the death penalty and the support for the death penalty exhibited by the populace.

[...] Opinion polls show that Europeans and Canadians crave executions almost as much as their American counterparts do. It's just that their politicians don't listen to them. In other words, if these countries' political cultures are morally superior to America's, it's because they're less democratic.

From Marshall, Joshua Micah. EUROPE'S DEATH-PENALTY ELITISM. DEATH IN VENICE. The New Republic, June 31, 2000

anomie states: Can't get the Austin American Statesman here. Enlighten me. Always willing to look at a good argument.

too long to post here.

Deuc asks: No response for the my criticism Dudley?

My two links covered your criticisms, thoroughly.

Anomie writes: Any comments on Ryan Matthews, by the way? Arguably mentally deficient, and eventually exonerated by DNA evidence.

Sad case. Weren't there 2-3 witnesses who identified Matthews, didn't his alleged accomplice sign a sworn statement that Matthews committed the murder, but later recanted? DNA didn't match. DNA was a match to an incarcerated murderer. Matthews was released. I don't know anything about the mental aspects.

reply to anomie and xena

xena asks: does the death penalty aid the progression of a civilised nation?

Progression is subjectively defined. Maybe more just.

Jurors give a death sentence when they believe it is most just. The evidence is sound that by sparing guilty murderers, more innocents are knowingly sacrificed. By executing murderers we spare more innocents.

As Sunstein and Vermeule concluded: " . . . a serious commitment to the sanctity of human life may well compel, rather than forbid, (capital) punishment." (2)

"This evidence greatly unsettles moral objections to the death penalty, because it suggests that a refusal to impose that penalty condemns numerous innocent people to death." (2)

(2)) From the Executive Summary of
Is Capital Punishment Morally Required? The Relevance of Life-Life Tradeoffs, 3/2005
Full report http://aei-brookings.org/admin/authorpdfs/page.php?id=1131

anomie asks: DS. On Ricky Ray Rector: why did the prison chaplain resign, claiming what was done to Rector was a horrible crime in itself – that "we're not supposed to execute children"?

Source please? And, why didn't 99% of the others, involved in the execution, not resign? Remember my point, we cannot execute people who aren't aware of why they are being executed AND who aren't aware of what execution means. The returning for dessert story is fiction and/or Rector thought it was a controversial way to go out.

aomie states: Familiar with Bedau's book, which (his contributions included) is considerably more nuanced than you let on.

We disagree. He stated of course it deters. Reason and history find that all prospects for negative consequences deter someone. It is not surprising that the most severe criminal sanction doesn't contradict this truism.

Can you name (with evidence) one negative consequence that doesn't deter some folks? BTW, no one has, yet.

anomie asks: are all the cases of exoneration (some of them posthumous) not credible?

Based upon many reviews, as I previously stated likely around 25 cases of cedible actual innocence released from death row, for cases prosecuted in the modern era, post Furman, 1972. I am unaware of any solid cases of an innocent executed since 1900

We're still failing to examine the question of how to compensate a later-exonerated corpse, aren't we, DS? Surely this deserves discussion.

BTW, DS, Rector reference, Marshal Frady, New Yorker, date not to hand. And a closer reading of the Sunstein and Vermeule article shows (a) the nation-wide deterrent effect of capital punishment is entirely driven by only six states—and no deterrent effect can be found in the twenty-one other states that have restored capital punishment, and (b) many murderers lack a clear sense of the likelihood and perhaps even the existence of executions in their state; further problems for the deterrence claim are introduced by the fact that capital punishment is imposed infrequently and after long delays. In any case many murders are committed in a passionate state that does not lend itself to an all-things-considered analysis on the part of perpetrators.

Doubtless there are those who surely deserve death for their crimes. But who among us has the right to be executioner? The victims’ relatives, perhaps? How does this redress the crime? Many vicious killers want to die. Death can be the easy way out for them. A life time sentence in solitary confinement would surely be worse.

Capital punishment has proven to be no deterrent. Despite DS’s spurious links – a PRO-death web-site (written by himself no less), statistics from Texas! Or shonky claims such as “Barry Scheck, cofounder of the Innocence Project and featured speaker at the National Conference on Wrongful Convictions and the Death Penalty (11/13-15/98), stated that he had no proof of an innocent executed (in the US since 1976) (34).”

Since 1976! Please get your facts right duddles.

“If Larry Griffin were being tried today for the murder of Quintin Moss, he would almost certainly be acquitted. The evidence is overwhelming that he did not kill Mr. Moss. But Mr. Griffin is not being tried today. He has already been executed for the murder.”

This is an excerpt from NY Times Bob Herbert dated 14th July 2005-07-15

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/14/opinion/14herbert.html

There is no doubt about DS’ passion for his subject, but it borders on obsession. I would posit that it brings DS down to the same level as the murderers he wants put to death.