Not just in politics Sylvia. In academia, and in just about any debate. Unfortunately the basics of good argument either aren't taught, or more likely are ignored, because they don't suit the conclusions someone wants to make.

Thanks for the explanation Sylvia! Now I finally get what you mean. It sounded like foreign language to me. Obviously I am a slow learner. I have taken on board what you are saying. A lesson well learned.

Cheers
Kay

Gee,I want to meet this "ad hominen" person,she can admonish me from a plethoria of sins,such as logic,reality and accountability.

As someone who has suffered clinical depression I would have thought Sylvia would have had a bit more insight. Depression is a mental illness, people with mental illness are seldom competent to make life and death decisions, I certainly wouldn't want one to make it on my behalf.

To suggest that someone suffering from mental illness should be given advice on how to end their life strikes me as patronizing in the extreme. It's the right of the individual carried to the uncaring absurd.

Sylvia have you ever spoken to anyone who's wanted to kill themselves? Have you listened to their reasons? I spent many years in a job where I had numerous occasions to speak with suicidal persons. The two main reasons I found were either genuine self-loathing or revenge. The overwhelming majority accompanied by extreme depression. The decision to end their life was hardly a result of sound cognitive processes.

During your bouts of depression did you ever SERIOUSLY want to kill yourself? If you did why didn't you? Are you glad now that you didn't? A fit, sane, and healthy person does not kill themselves. The very attempt shows the presence of mental illness and the absence of rational thought.

No wonder our mentally ill cop such a raw deal in our society with attitudes around like this. What a hard, cold world you live in Sylvia. Seeing this thread abounds in ad hominem, let me add my own little bit - Sylvia, I bet you've got razor thin lips.

We stuck with the fact that people go through repeated bouts of depression. This belies the suggestion that depression can be treated successfully. If that were true, then these repeated periods of mysery wouldn't happen.

So the question then becomes, who should decide whether a sufferer should have to put up with this? The sufferer, or someone else.

It is a value judgement. Saying that the sufferers are mentally ill, and not competent to make the call is a convenient way of trying to avoid the ethical issue associated with denying people rights over their own existence, but I don't think it stands up.

Lots of people do commit suicide. We don't get to talk to them after the event. It's a gross assumption to say that their decision was the wrong one.

Sylvia.

Bozzie, in common with yourself I have had professional contact with hundreds upon hundreds of depressed and suicidal people during my psychiatric/mental health nursing career. Depression is surely the "common cold of mental illness" (I forget who aptly said this).

I have prevented many, many people from killing themselves and I am glad that I was their advocate when they were fragile and vulnerable and not capable of rational decision making at the height of their ambivalence. I have never nursed a person who has not been greatful for having their life saved and taught other ways of thinking, feeling and behaving.

The key to understanding a suicidal person is to understand the notion of ambivalence. People can be taught positive ways of handling what they perceive at the time to be an unsolveable and inescapable situation.

I have always worked with and for my clients to assist them in learning better problem solving skills. This is empowering for clients - it is not patronising. I have always treated my clients on an equal footing to myself. I have always treated my clients in a loving and caring way - as I would like myself, a family member, or a friend to be treated.

Thank you
Kay