Thanks to Timkins and Robert for courteously answering my mini poll. To silversurfer thanks for finally answering my question after your lengthy lecture.

The point I was trying to make by these questions (hardly a scientific analysis) was to confirm my view that most men enjoy being parents despite the difficulties.

(Robert I do empathise and appreciate your candour, apart from the violence, I ran away to avoid the very consequences you are experiencing – my ex was very manipulative too. As I have stated the judicial system needs to catch up with the expectations of men).

If the majority of men are taking as much joy at being parents as most women do, why is this view not being transferred to our young men?

What are you saying to your sons or young friends? In other words, are you providing positive role models?

After reading many posts here, if I were a young man I would be forming the opinion that hitching up with a woman would be full of dire consequences.

My son says he doesn’t want to get married but to have a relationship like I have (shock horror de facto). My daughter wants to marry – the full white wedding bit. They were very young when I escaped their father. Now they are teenagers and liable to change their views a million times a day.

Timkins thanks for the link – I did check it out. I don’t know if it really indicates a pendulum swing back to formal marriage or not. It was interesting.

"the rearing, social welfare and education of children should become the responsibility of society rather than individual parents."

I agree that this idea – raised back in the ‘70’s IS unworkable and to be avoided. As a society, we should be supporting each other but not taking over the raising of children.

“24-hour childcare should be introduced to free women from "domestic slavery". I think this absurd idea reflects the times (1970’s) and certainly not the reality of today. I do confess to loathing housework however. But 24/7 childcare – economically insane and not a solution anyway.

As I have stated before there are as many ‘feminist ideals’ as there are feminists. Today many women, like me, would consider themselves humanist instead. I still believe we have much more to fear from our current crop of business/political leaders than extremist feminists.

I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to my post Timkins and thank you for your courteous reply. Due to word count, can’t really address everything however, I don’t think a return to the 50’s is the solution either – is that what you want?

Now Silversurfer I made a little bet with myself that you would claim a typo – my moniker has been deliberately misspelt before so I was hardly being paranoid.

As for responding to male posters – I do it all the time – but I choose whomever I respond to and if you are unimpressed by my responses well – too bad

Ringfail,

I don’t think the risks to fatherhood are acceptable, and would say so as a role model, or to anyone listening. This is not to say there is no value in fatherhood (CSA assesses this continuously, and even expresses it as a daily rate). To some fathers, that is the only measure of worth society attributes them. They get no further recognition, or opportunity to enjoy their children. Their treatment is reprehensible, and needs urgent change.

To my surprise, my son already understands these risks beyond his age. Amazingly, he has long ago rejected CSA as his provider and will therefore benefit from my lifelong support; not so lucky my girls.

Its possible that the decline in marriage and fatherhood has as much to do with braodening lifestyle choices for men as it has to do with reluctance stemming from risk/reward considerations.

l see a lot of lament by both many men and some women about the social ills apparently caused by feminism. As a man, l dont really see it that way. The lay of the land is such that l dont face the social pressure to marry, l can live in sin and have kids out of wedlock... with little if any social stigma. For me that equals choice and greater freedom to act according to my own wishes rather than accomodating social preferences. l can father children for as long as l produce viable seed (well into old age), as long as l can support them physically and mentally. l can hook up with a woman up to 10-15 yrs my junior without inviting social codascension and well beyond that if we ignore the attendant sniggering of society. Society brands me as having a "Peter Pan Syndrome." The boy who never grows up. Well l see a youthful boyish attitude as a blessing not a curse. Open minded, adventurous, eager, full of possibility, optimistic and hopeful.

Personally, l dont see the point of marriage unless l want to have children. l'm one of those many men who have a take it or leave it attitude to fatherhood. l like the idea of it and enjoy immensely the short doses of company with my young relatives and sometimes think l want fatherhood. But that usually fades after 3 or 4 hours in their company when they start their tantrums and arguements and all that kids stuff that drives their parents crazy.

The discussion about perceived risks are quite useful for rationalising my preference but l suspect that lm not really up for it at this stage (maybe in my 40s or 50s that will change) and that an innate preference for an open ended lifestyle is at the heart of it for me.

Why? Because l can.

Seeker,
Probably a definition of the modern father could be:- “A man who is guilty, until proven broke”, or for a more elaborate definition :- “Under the current system of family law, fathers typically lose their children in return for financing the destruction of their own families” at http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/r/robbins/2005/robbins052405.htm

Or if he does get married and has children, and manages to avoid financing the destruction of his own family, he has a happy retirement to look forward to when his beloved wife puts him “in a box.” http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15429687%255E601,00.html

Luckily I don’t have a son, as I would have to somehow explain the system to him.

I haven't read all of the posts yet. Trade215 I really liked your first response. It was so clear and easy to read - and so darn practical. Good on you.

Laurie, I agree with you about lasting relationships. All of my friends have sincerely believed that they would stay married for life.

Sylvia, I found your remark that children are " ... only for economic health" to be rather a sad enditement of our society. I would hate to think that people are encouraged to have children for the primary purpose of improving the economic health of our society. Maybe I am too concrete. Kay