Extremely well put, Pricillian! Boaz argues that cultures always maintain a balance under a church's influence. In whose favour? With the ignorance the church has always eschewed about science et al, it is in danger because it still wants the masses back there, fearing a god that only they are privy to, And they will use smoke and mirrors and segue in cultures to suck them into it. The Church has plagarised from paganism, voodoo and many primitive cultures to woo the "heathens" onto their path. It has always had more to do with politics and real estate than spirituality. And in doing so, destroyed those cultures. Christianity is not the be all and end all, only to Christians. Jesus wasn't a Christian or a Catholic, he was a Jew that didn't like the way things were happening. I'm sure he wouldn't be too impressed these days either, having his moniker on it.

Peter,
the Christian Church has factionalised, split, reformed and undergone change since its inception some 2000 years ago. I don't claim to know but presumably these factions maintain their own sets of ritual, their own hierarchies and their own congregations. I assume this is one mechanism by which the church has retained its essential relevance in diverse communities. It was the case during the church's long history that it had a leading role in societies less secular than modern Australia's. It's undesirable, in my opinion, that the church reclaim such a role but I don't think the church providing spiritual guidance is at issue. Change may be necessary to do so however, the diversity of the modern Christian Church suggests to me that is so.

Di – I realise this is pedantic, but Christianity has been around a lot longer than voodoo. Voodoo has plagiarised Christianity, not the other way around. Having said that, it’s true that Christianity does not have a single belief or ritual that cannot be found in various preceding pagan beliefs. But that is beside the point.

Why is it that the people who yell the longest and loudest about the need for the Church to change are people who don’t believe in God or the Church? I’m agnostic – in that I don’t know if there is or isn’t a God, but if there is, I think that it is well beyond our ability to comprehend or understand. But as for the Church itself, I think it provides many, many people with a real sense of love, belonging, hope and purpose. I haven’t had my children baptised because it would be hypocritical of me. Why should the Church make a hypocrite of itself just to drag in some new followers?

Some months ago, an organic fruit and vegetable shop opened nearby to where I live. An acquaintance of mine was doing some work on the new fixtures. He told me the following story: He told the proprietor that he was going to get some lunch. The proprietor handed him some money and asked him if he could call into Woolworths and buy 2kg of apples. He did this, and the proprietor immediately proceeded to wash them, peel the stickers off and put them on his own shelf labelled as “organic”.

The point of the story is that who would want a Church who behaves in a similar manner? Principles put aside to increase profit (whether that be money or souls).

Adherence to ones own principles is seen to be a virtue and something worthy of respect. Why is this not extended to the Church as well?

Bozzie, I may well argue the point about whether voodoo has been around longer than christianity, but your fruit stall parable has piqued my interest much more. But maybe that's just the Eve coming out in me! After all, apples are apples.

In his book “The Essence of Christianity” Ludwig Feuerbach said that “Man first unconsciously and involuntarily creates God in his own image, and after this God (Religion) consciously and voluntarily creates man in his own image”. That was in 1841.

It would clear up a lot of the confusion which exists in the present discussion if the meaning of Feuerbach’s words were fully appreciated. “God” is an image which human beings created in their own minds and all the characteristics of God which we attribute to him, like love, compassion and judgment are no more than our own emotional feelings projected into that image. There is no supernatural being sitting out there in the limitless void listening and responding to our ceremonies of adoration.

Human beings create their own problems of war, hunger and oppression and it is human beings who have to fix them.

John Warren, sounds like you've read a better book than the bible on the Big/Little Man. You certainly deserve the last word. Well put!