Personally I made a complaint to the Advertising Standards Bureau http://www.advertisingstandardsbureau.com.au/how_to_complain.html regards the Ford ad on the grounds that it tried to negatively stereotype the male gender (ie you can’t be a man unless you drive a Ford Turbo). That complaint was dismissed as nearly all complaints to the Advertising Standards Bureau are dismissed (ie 99%), but the advertising industry has much to answer for in it’s stereotyping of people, and I do feel that such stereotyping does have a negative affect on young people.

But I can remember singing in choirs at school, and singing in unison with others is a wonderful experience. It is also something that is very masculine for males, and it is good to know that there are boys in some schools who understand this as well.

Timkins, not very surprised that you submit complaints to the advertising industry about male stereotyping. Whatever stirs your pot, mate.

However, I was struck by your comment "It is also something that is very masculine for males" 'sfar I know singing is very human not specifically masculine. I do agree that boys should be encouraged more in singing, dancing in fact many skills that have a so called feminine image should be encouraged.

I think it is a shame that a popular insult is to be referred to as a girl - not helpful for the self esteem for either boys or girls.

I've got a male neighbour who sings a lot (mostly in Greek). I love it.

Most times I've sung in public I have needed to stop for the well being of those around me. Music teachers used to suggest that there were better things to do with my time than persue musical interests (something about timing, rythm and pitch - or a lack theroff).

I think the idea of encouraging people to sing is great. We might have a bit of work to do to get around the images of choir boys and choir masters in society.

Ambo,
I have also made complaints to various organisations regards “negative” stereotyping of males and females in advertising and in the media, (ie not just males, although there is presently much negative stereotyping of males), as well as being a member of an international human rights organisation for many years that investigated human rights abuses of men, women and children, and presently I sponsor a little girl in Sudan through http://www.plan-international.org/.

Does this help to satisfy your attempts to stereotype myself as being biased towards males.

The topic of the article was on boys and singing. I have lived in countries such as Portugal where men and boys singing is quite common and very much a part of the Portuguese traditional culture, and I agree with the principle that singing is a very masculine activity for males.

I also don’t have a problem with words such as masculine or feminine.

Timkins

we are all very relieved to hear that you don't have problems with the words 'masculine or feminine'.

Now, I am a girl (golly gosh) I sing in a band. According to you singing is masculine - so does this mean I'm butch?

I agree with Ambo that boys should be encouraged to sing, write, dance, play music or any of the finer arts. Definitions of masculine behaviour are soooo narrow. We would all benefit if masculine and feminine definitions were broadened to reflect the reality of human nature - that we posses the same talents and abilities to a lesser and greater extent as others.

Every child should be encouraged, regardless of sex.

Xena,
It does seem that if someone says anything positive about the male gender, or about masculinity, then there is immediate condemnation of that person. Funny how our society has evolved.

For males, singing is very masculine. For females, singing is very feminine (and BTW, I am presently listening to a Sarah McLachlan CD, if that helps you in your attempts to stereotype myself as someone who thinks female musicians or singers are “butch”).

But there does appear to be a problem with boys singing, and I would think that this is largely based on a notion that singing is not a masculine activity for males. As the author has pointed out (and in my travels I agree), this notion is based on our culture only, and not on physiology.

I think that the media in our culture does have a significant affect on our notions of who we are, and what we should be doing. Advertisements in the media are atrocious in stereotyping people, and something should be done about it. So perhaps you can also complain to organisations such as the Advertising Standards Bureau if there are ads suggesting that males should speak in a deep voice and drive a turbo diesel. Just talking about it on forums will not do much to change our media.

Timkins

Neither I nor Ambo has attempted to 'stereotype' you. Don't be so precious.

We are saying that all children need encouragement, regardless of sex.

Singing is universal - neither masculine nor feminine its HUMAN - get it?

Stereotyping in advertising has nothing to do with this forum. Nor does your sponsoring of a female child - although I suspect that you think your sponsorship gives you some sort of validity for your POV - it doesn't.

I just hope you encourage any child (whether male or female) to be everything they can be and not divide it so much into masculine and feminine.

You take everything so personally that it is impossible to have an effective discussion with you.

Advertising standards are a reflection of our culture. Stereotypical views of male and female are older than recorded history. Sure you can log complaints - like I said if that's what stirs your pot.

However, advertising will only change with a significant cultural shift which must come from all of us. There are plenty of men and women who prefer to believe the stereotypes, not questioning the status quo makes life easier - acceptance of any dogma is always the easy way out.

Stephen Crabbe has raised an issue that goes a lot further than just taking the 'girly' image away from choir singing.

Xena,
Advertising has a lot to do with this forum. The author began and finished the article with references to an advertisement that I have also refereed to and lodged complaints about at the Advertising Standards Bureau, (as this is one of the very few ways of getting advertising changed), and comments such as “You take everything so personally that it is impossible to have an effective discussion with you”, are very much attempts to stereotype myself. Perhaps you should read the article and provide an apology, instead of calling me names such as “precious”.

Ambo,
Media and advertisements are not reflections of our culture. They are creating our culture, and this can be tested by taking out media and advertisements.

Some of the most intrinsically happy people I have known have lived in environments where there was limited media and no TV, such as on more remote islands of Tahiti about 30 years ago. In those places people made their own entertainment and developed their own culture, often through singing and music, and I would not like to say to a Polynesian male that he was not masculine and it was unmanly for him to sing or play musical instruments. However that is now being projected towards our young boys at least.

Most of it is originally coming from highly commercialised and manipulative media, and last time I looked that media cares very little about what people actually want. What most of that media and advertising wants is for people to become easily manipulated and obedient consumers. Take out such media and advertising and you will readily find out how much it changes culture and alters what people do.

If someone also believes that singing should somehow become standardised and androgenous, where there are no males or masculinity, and no females or femininity, then it would become too boring to even contemplate.

(NB. Was “what stirs your pot” meant to be some type of maligning remark similar to those made by Xena? If so, then I should be able to make such remarks also).

Part 1

Timkins "whatever stirs your pot" is simply an expression, like "whatever turns you on". This is not meant to malign you it is simply an observation of your posts on this website where other posters spend too much time responding to your hurt sensitivities instead of contributing to the debate. Xena has a point.

You have given the advertising media alot of power if you believe they create out culture - I have no doubt they are a significant part of it - because the media is made up of human beings like you and I. And the bulk of advertising execs are male. Like everything else the ultimate power at the top is still very much in male domain in spite of your 'feminist conspiracy' rants.

Now I am not attempting to androgynise singing (sigh) I infer from your posts that you like very much to divide everything into little compartments labelled 'male' and female' and you don't see us as collectively human. I know from one of your previous comments that you don't much approve of the book "men are from mars, women from venus" - neither do I. Yet you are doing the same thing as the author of the book. Except you have an overwhelming bias in favour of males. You see them as more maligned than females. I guess you have some personal experience that influences this view.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the obvious here? It isn't too obvious not to mention. So here it goes.

Miiiiichael Jackson!

Yes. The all singing, all dancing, ultimate feminine girlie boy! And not one post about it. Shame shame shame, I expected more from the sniping and b^tching on this forum.

Penekiko,
I think what you are talking about is the highly androgenous singer who has relied on much commercialism to sell their music.

But that is where much of our music and our culture is now at. In societies where there is minimal outside media, people create their own culture. There is much music, singing and dance, and nearly everyone in that society takes part.

However our own society has now thrown out much of that type of culture and replaced it with such things as a TV set, and much of our own culture has now become fill between the often abysmal advertisements and commercialism (although some people seem to have minimal objection).

We are seeing boys gradually dropping out of song, music and dance, and probably girls will follow eventually

"We are seeing boys gradually dropping out of song, music and dance, and probably girls will follow eventually"

Oh lighten up Timkins - singing and dancing is as much a part of human nature as speech. And I don't see any reduction in boys and girls starting bands, writing music, performing etc. While there is a reduction in boys (and girls) participating in choirs, may be there will be a resurgence, may be not.

Part 2 (from where I was so rudely interrupted due to post limit).

Don't you see how divisive much of the stereotyping of men and women is. I am a big bloke, however my female partner at work is just as effective at moving heavy equipment and bodies as I am - she just uses a different approach. She is also very authoritive when the situation gets difficult and I have seen her subdue a group of drunk men - impressive stuff. Just goes to show what can be achieved when someone is encouraged rather than stereotyped.

The irony here, Timkins, is that I suspect we want the same thing - a reduction in stereotyping of males and females. I don't believe that boys are more discriminated against than girls. (I have a child of each sex). When my son told my daughter that she ran like a girl (she is, in fact a great sprinter) she was hurt just as my son was hurt when he was jeered at by a couple of boys for throwing 'like a girl'.

Please stop being so touchy and concentrate on the issue. We may actually mange to communicate with each other. Now wouldn't that be something?

Ahh, India the land of song and love. How I yearn for my native India.

Ambo,
Recently I watched the annual musical production at the local high school. There were pupils from all grades in the show, and out of a cast of about 30 there were 2 boys (from a school of about 1600). Normally they get no boys, and it was such a novelty to have any boys at all that one of the boys had his picture in the local newspaper advertising the musical. This was because the public interest in the musical had dropped off so much because the public were not greatly interested in seeing girls act and sing male parts year after year.

The girls were also loosing interest because they had to play the part of males and try and sing like males, and overall it was a big problem for the music teacher.

At the same school many years ago, I was in a number of productions with many boys auditioning and no problems in filling male parts. Why the lack of interest now by boys remains something of a mystery, but personally I put it down to such things as a current belief that singing is not masculine, a lack of male role models within the education system, all the anti-male messages being thrown at men and boys by the feminist brigade, a concern that they will be gossiped about by the girls in the production, and the affects of such things as commercialised TV and modern media (and if you don’t believe it is not having a major influence on our culture then visit places where there is no TV or modern media).

The rest of your posts I have only skimmed over, because you know almost nothing about myself, but have made so many generalised insinuations and inferences regards myself, (and in a highly gossipy and girlie way). So you can keep your generalised insinuations and inferences for yourself.

Timkins

As I stated previously I'm in a band. Our outfit has five members 3 of whom are male. We play regularly at a local inner city pub. I mix with a lot of people in the music industry and the majority of bands are all male with maybe about 30% female.

You base what you say on your local high school, sounds very sad.

The issue is about encouraging boys to sing in CHOIRS (there's a plethora of males in the entertainment industry) - and there's nothing wrong with that.

I would just like to see both sexes encouraged to be everything they can be and not divided so much that we have a situation where men like you think calling someone a girl is an insult. You are just as much a part of the problem as the advertising media.

Now I am going to join other posters to this forum and NEVER respond again to your posts. So many people have tried to reach out to you and all you do is get all defensive. Bye bye.

hey folks,

i think this is a really interesting topic.

i work in the music industry, and the industry is dominated by men - both in the creative sides of things, as well as the behind-the-scenes things like management, sound engineering and production. i do not know many women working as musos at all - the whole thing is a boys club.

while singing should be nurtured, i do not think that it is boys who lose singing - i think it is everyone. in our society, creativity is often discouraged - i was long called a freak when i was younger because i did drama - yes, that is certainly something that would want to make me continue (sarcasm intended). it does become hard to stand out against the crowd and put yourself - with all your vulnerabilities - on the line in public for people to judge you - especially if there is a fear you might be found wanting.

i think that while this article does raise a few interesting issues, it is not necessarily accurate in reflecting the way these boys who are scared to sing grow up. it is just that artistic expression - and difference - are not encouraged anywhere in our society. the stigma attached to the arts is a heavy burden, when instead, it should be worshipped. it is a hard thing to commit to doing something for passion, instead of reward. to know that our society relies on artists to help us interpret the world - but that the only rewards usually come from the soul - and that can be a hard thing to justify.

have a lovely day.

suse

Yes, it is an interesting topic - however I think that we need to distinguish between singing per se and singing in choirs. As others have pointed out, there is absolutely no shortage of venues and genres where men and boys are encouraged to sing - just listen to contemporary street rappers, rock bands, country music, folk music, opera, the "Idol" and "X-factor" competitions, karaeoke (sp?) etc.

My own son is right into music, singing and production (under almost exactly the opposite context described by "Timkins", despite it also occurring under the auspices of a State high school). I think, however, that *choir* singing has very much gone out of fashion for young men and boys. I suspect that, whatever the causes for this may be, gender is only a small part of the explanation. I would look more at the strong religious association with choirs, and the related recent publicity surrounding sexual abuse of choirboys etc.

On the other hand, I recall seeing a quite wonderful doco on the ABC or SBS quite recently that described the resurgence of men's choirs in towns in regional Victoria (?) in recent times, as a kind of male bonding and affirmation exercise. Sort of like a true version of 'The Full Monty' or 'Billy Elliot', but focused on singing in a choir of men.

Personally, I rarely sing when sober - but that is more to do with my consideration of the aural sensibilities of others :)

Xena,
I thought the article was on boys singing and the stereotyping of males through such things as ads and the media, but it is interesting that you belong to a mixed musical group. That is most likely because all female groups rarely last very long, and this is fact.

The same goes for choirs, and if boys are dropping out of singing, musicals, choirs etc then eventually the public looses interest and those things cease to exit. The situation at the high school I mentioned would be quite representative of many schools now, but it was not always like that. I wonder why.

The author has pointed out the situation where boys will que up for choirs at boys only schools. These choirs will be boys only choirs, but the boys have minimal interest in joining choirs at co-ed schools, where the choirs will be mixed. Maybe this provides clues as to why.

Perhaps boys don’t like to be gossiped about, nagged, hen-picked, squealed at, emotionally manipulated etc by girls or women that may be in the choir or musical productions. That is what is referred to as a “girlie” environment, and I don’t think too many males respond too well to that type of environment, and males only become involved in music or art if the environment is right.

With boys not doing as well in many areas of education, then perhaps the education environment has become too “girlie” for many boys also. All politically incorrect to say, but probably very accurate.

Ads and media that negatively stereotype males, anti-male messages from feminists, entertainment that is now purchased from others etc, are also on the list as to reasons why, but noticeably missing was your list of probable reasons why (of course)

My daughters, both beautiful singers, will not join their school choir (mixed) because choirs have become terminally uncool. They sing, like many other boys and girls at their school, solo. The school (public, comprehensive, co-ed) has 4 concerts a year which students audition for and boys and girls make equal amounts of music, drama, comedy and mayhem. Even dance is pretty equally participated in, with boys doing spectacularly athletic breakdancing.
The choir is predominantly female, but very small. The band is predominantly male, but equally small. According to my girls the kids prefer to generate their own acts and ideas. In the choir, and the band, teachers and parents take over.
Maybe if we want more kids (boys in particular) to join choirs, we need to give them more ownership of the songs they sing and the music they make. From the number of rock bands that perform in my kid's school concerts fronted by male singers, they have no trouble singing the songs they choose themselves.
The remarks about the "girlie" atmosphere in Timkin's last post fit my definition of mysogyny and seem to say more about the writer than the problem.

Let's for a moment ignore the pro-Timkins camp and the anit-Timkins camp and consider only the article. Who then largely argrees with what the author has to say?

Hmmm....

OK... it seems people are getting hung up specifically on gender issues, re singing. What about the notion of what consistitutes "good" singing and being "able to sing"? Someone earlier mentioned being encouraged NOT to sing. Sure, we'd all perhaps prefer not to listen to a voice, which could peel paint of the walls, but providing early intuition and encouragement for both BOYS and GIRLS ( and the Michael Jacksons of the world... hee hee)would be a more positive step toward addressing the issue Mr Crabbe is talking about. As for Choirs, they may not be a drawcard for everybody, but choosing a prefered genre for the learner would at least provide a fun and familiar environment to encourage our kiddies to sing.

OK Penekiko, (is there a pro Timkins camp?).

Well, this big girly-man thinks the author has a point regarding the lack of boys in choirs, however the same argument can be made for girls as well.

As enaj suggested more children would be interested if they had more involvement and input with the type of music in choirs. Having said that I know both my kids would run a mile rather than join a choir and as they already have strong interests in a variety of artistic pursuits I'm happy that they're happy. To be honest I'm not all that into choirs myself.

I, like most parents, just want to encourage my kids to be positive, compassionate human beings.

Penekiko, count me in on the largely agreeing with what the author has to say.

R0bert

As the author of the article I thank all the contributors to this stimulating discussion. In response I could write another whole article -- but for now just a few points.

I didn’t intend to limit the focus to choral singing. I want to encourage soloists and small ensembles, stage-musical actors and anyone else who really wants to sing well. I am not really interested in the singing that needs electronic engineering to engage an audience. Nor am I very keen on the singing that needs amplification to be heard by a handful of people. I want people to sing with all the power of which their bodies are capable, and in the timbre (tone-colour) that is peculiar to them (due to anatomical attributes). That is authentic expression. In this respect, accepting your body is the seat of your integrity.

Authenticity is my focus for both boys and girls. But the problem with boys is more urgent in several ways: for instance, they have far fewer models; from their environment (mass media, peer-group etc.) they get constant discouragement to sing in their own voices; and then they must deal with the voice-change.

Help boys before adolescence to know and use the voices they were born with, to refine their feelings in the process, to be aware of the thoughts and feelings of their audience and fellow-performers, to understand and evaluate the historical origins and purposes of the music they are passing on. They won’t achieve these things through singing along with a recording of the latest pop hit or hiding their voices behind amplified sounds of guitars and drums. Let’s encourage each boy to expose his voice while we give him the wherewithal to please an audience and himself.

Then, in adolescence, help him to carry that child-voice into his new adult-voice, rather than channel his energy into masking himself behind a voice that is not his own. We should help each boy to be himself – to find and use his real voice with pride.

I hope this clarifies my intentions somewhat.

Thanks Crabby for your elucidating post.

I really appreciate the point you are trying to make. Just as women started to redefine their roles men are beginning to do the same. This will broaden the horizons for us all.

The definition of "a man" is narrow and limiting indeed.

When I am singing I can feel transcendant in a very spiritual sense - an uplifting experience that many boys should and could be able to reach.

If I ever have children I will consider your thoughts Crabby, thanks.

Crabby,
I would agree that good singing requires skill and practice and boys can be excellent singers, (oops, I just made a positive comment about the male gender on OLO of all places), but to help publicise or make known children’s choir singing and musicals there is the possibility of taking them to venues such as folk festivals.

Folk festivals are growing in popularity throughout the country and I think this is because more people are rejecting the highly commercialised music that is so often on the radio and TV. These folk festivals also acquaint the public to many different forms of music and help keep traditional music alive.

The Woodford folk festival is now regarded as being the biggest in the southern hemisphere and one of the best in the world. I often attend and I would think that there would be many people who would very much like to hear choir or a musicals performed by children at such venues

Dear Stephen Crabbe, I have an interesting story. I'm just an ordinary classroom music teacher in a state primary school in Gympie (Qld). At the beginning of this year I tried an experiment - I put the word out in our school that I was going to run auditions to start a boys choir. Unbelievably 74 boys fronted up for an audition! Out of those I chose 20 of the best singers, and now have a very enthusiastic 16 boys in the choir. I'd love to get more info on how to retain and train treble voices, am wondering if you know of any workshops or other boy choirs/choir directors that we could touch base with. I agree with your comments on the Ford ad, but also feel that such TV shows as Australian Idol probably help lift the profile of the male singer, (even though the singing technique sometimes leaves a lot to be desired!)But this has definitely proved that boys are more likely to join an all-boys choir.
Cheers, boyschoirgirl

There are many institutions in our nation which uphold and encourage our young men and boys to sing. Make your way to many independant religious schools, especially Anglican and Catholic, and you will find strong traditions of boy's choirs and singing, mainly through hymns.

The problem in this area is that modern hymns, especially in the Catholic church, are not suited to the young male voice, whether bass, tenor or soprano. Either they are too much like pop songs, demand too great a vocal range, or have words which are airy-fairy and vague.

Hymns like "I Vow To Thee, My Country", "Jerusalem" and "Be Thou My Vision" regularly raise the roof at the school I attend, and we love singing them. A full church, a strong organist, and a traditional hymn regularly raises the roof. Modern hymns send us to sleep as they are unsuited to our voices and our character.