The point of the article has not been commented upon at all really.

I guess it is easier to bring up the tired old issue of 'the apology'. Please note that I did not raise the issue. It is interesting that it gets so many people so upset. I don't buy the legal problem angle at all - and I have spoken to Canadians.

The other tired old stand-by cry of the anti-Indigenous that 'all people should be treated the same' demonstrates an understanding of how many people in this society get 'special treatment'.

In a society that functions well, there will always be a need for some people to get that 'special treatment'. In the end it is for the good of the community as a whole.

To get back to the article itself, hypocrisy is a feature of mainstream Western culture - hardly a shred of humility or consideration that other cultures may have something valuable to offer - we who overeat while starving to death spiritually in a plethora of material wealth.

Colonial interaction with the colonised people began with hypocrisy, and perhaps the most hypocritcal were some of the early missionaries. Great stuff that Stephen has pointed out just one small example of the on-going hubris of we white colonists.

“I would like to know your sources for assuming that life expectancy was lower than it was today though. Can you provide the reference for this? I am not being sarcastic.”

www.brown.edu/Departments/Economics/Papers/2004/2004-14_paper.pdf shows life expectancy for most hunter gatherer tribes was between 25-35. Aboriginals now live to be 56.9 for males and 61.7 for females. (check the ABS website) This represents around a 100 per cent increase in the past 200 years – about the same life expectancy increase as that of European Australians in the past two centuries (see www.prb.org/Content/NavigationMenu/ PRB/Educators/Human_Population/Health2/World_Health1.htm).
Still the point is that life expectancy will not magically increase when the words sorry leave John Howard's lips. it might increase if everyone takes advantage of the resources available to them.

"And just because you have some Indigenous heritage does not mean that you are not racist (Posted by Mollydukes, Friday, April 08, 2005 2:17:16 AM)". – that looks like you are calling me racist.

“I am not surprised at how well assimilated you are. Your western cultural background provided you with the cultural and philosophical basics to get on with it.” I am sorry – it was that other M – Morganzola - who made that comment in another topic.

Now that that is out of the way I have some questions for you – what exactly is the cause of failure for the people you are talking about. I have been to places like Broken Hill and Wilcannia and the problems there are based on alcohol and poor parenting - the only options for the government are to ban alcohol for everybody (not going to happen) ban alcohol for aboriginals (may happen as part of mutual obligation arrangements) or remove children from homes (not going to happen given hysteria about stolen generations. I like option two but not as an aboriginal thing but as something for many low socio economic families where alcohol is a problem.
Or some of the kids can come to the realisation (as many do but not enough) that this life stinks and try to do better.

t.u.s

t.u.s. it is generally accepted that hunter-gatherer tribes life expectancy was that low but I don’t think that this applies to the Australian Indigenous people. They really were not simply Neanderthal hunter-gatherers.

I have looked into this issue and there is no reliable estimate but you have only to look at some of the very early photographs to see well-built men who are quite obviously well into their 50’s. It is clear that life span and health began to decline for the Indigenous who moved to the missions and began to eat missionary food

The lifespan and size of the Europeans who came here varied considerably depending on class. The poor were small and died early and some of the aristocracy who were too stupid to eat properly but some peasant groups living in productive rural areas and some of the aristocracy lived to ripe old ages.

As in most things, the ‘truth’ is more complex than the overall statistics would indicate.

Re your assumption that I called you a racist; it was a warning I guess. Racism is another constant and ubiquitous feature of human nature – traditional Indigenous are very racist – and needs to be guarded against for everyone.

The causes of failure for the Indigenous kids in townships are similar to those for the white kids in disadvantaged families – poor parenting and alcohol for sure. But how do you think that kids can ‘just realise’ that they need to try and do better? It's not that easy. They need to believe that they have choices and they need to know the skills to negotiate white culture.

Things like proper eye-contact, like wiping your nose and really basic stuff like that as well as being able to organise your clothes for an early morning appointment the night before. These things may seem so obvious to you but that is because you learned them before you even realised you learned them because your family has white input/white knowledge.

Part two follows if I have not exceeded by daily post limit.

But Indigenous parents, even if they are trying to be good parents do not have these skills themselves so cannot pass them on.

That is also the problem for many disadvantaged white kids but the lack of skills are even more pronounced for Indigenous kids and their cultural values are still an influence although the cultural thing is not overt. And many of them cover it up with the veneer of sophistication that comes from tv knowledge – like rap and the Simpsons talk.

These kids sell themselves short all the time. They may say to you – a male who is successful – that they don’t care and just can’t be bothered, but surely you can see this is bravado. They ‘know’ they can’t do well, so why give people a chance to kick you when you are down? Society is the enemy, they believe that white society doesn’t want them?

That is the sort of attitude I find that they have. Also, they often put things such as family problems first before their own wants (so will go to court to be with a brother) and miss an exam.

The problem is very difficult and nobody has the answer. I am sure there is no one answer. For some kids your approach may work but it won’t for most.

Molly,

I think we are finally seeing eye to eye a bit on this issue.

kids do sell themselves short all the time but ultimately the desire to be better has to come from within them - the government, or me or you can only do so much.

They need to see people who have made it or see things can be different to what they are - white society should not be the enemy but government policies which deliberately treat indigenous people differently from the rest, not the same create division.

This is way off topic now, so hopefully we can finish on some kind of agreement.

t.u.s

My GOD ! I've just discovered there is such a thing as 'MISSIONARY FOOD' ... Thanx Molly :) Whats more, its LETHAL.. not enough that they 'wreck culture, and destroy traditions.' now we (I was a missionary) POISON people as well ....

The thing is, I can't relate this concept to my own experience ... at our 'mission station' we relied more on the indigeneous people of Borneo to catch a deer or a pig or an Otter or monkey for some good tucker than they relied on us. ( I didn't eat Otter, I only even saw one in the last months of an 8 yrs stint, apart from that I would not know they were there )

I do take your point though Molly, but I seriously challenge you to look MUCH more deeply into the big picture before condemning 'missionary food'.. its not 'missionary' its just 'food food'...Western maybe, but not 'MISSIONARY' geeee.. no wonder people look sideways at 'religious nuts' with comments like these flying around the place.

Anyway, keep up the posts :)