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The Forum > Article Comments > Metrosexual males in mascara > Comments

Metrosexual males in mascara : Comments

By Daniel Donahoo, published 18/3/2005

Daniel Donahoo argues that men wearing makeup is not a pretty sight.

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Daniel,

I wasn't a fan of Queer Eye, I wear thongs and do other blokey things but i do admit, there is a patch of my goatee which always looks a bit thin and I touch it up with a bit of the old mascara.
This used to annoy my wife (because she was running out quicker) so now I buy a $5 thickener from Avon. it lasts me a month. I'm yet to wear blush though

t.u.s.
Posted by the usual suspect, Friday, 18 March 2005 12:23:01 PM
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Perhaps one day we'll have groups of blokes tootling off to the beauty parlour together, to get their waxing and nails done and complain about how much sex their girlfriends demand of them. Oh, the irony of it all. Just like women, I'm sure that men will work out soon enough that it's all a bit of a waste of time and money and it's what's on the inside that matters. Although - a shower and some cologne does help.
Posted by Audrey, Friday, 18 March 2005 12:52:44 PM
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And a dash of lipstick for those special occasions of course ...
Posted by Audrey, Friday, 18 March 2005 12:53:57 PM
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This gay male finds "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" nothing more than yuppie consumerism and a continuation of the tired old cliche of gays playing clowns on television - in the service of straights. And for the record, my choice of clothing is blundstones tastefully matched with a black t-shirt and blue jeans. Undies are usually Bonds (but you didn't need to know that, did you?). And I drink schooners of VB not flutes of Bollie.

Interestingly, my choice of clothing is the same as many lesbians. This is because it is practical and comfortable. Unlike wearing melting mascara and high-heeled shoes. That's the sort of clothing that should be left to performance artists.

I must say, though, I find this angst regarding the role of men in modern society a rather tiresome discussion. Daniel talks about men wandering in vain for an identity. I say that men who have this problem should stop wallowing in victimhood and get out and do something useful and interesting with their lives. Maybe it won't match the epitome of masculinity as constructed by the media. But then, why would anyone want to construct their manhood along the lines of phoney images? Or to put it another way, stealing cars and burning down Macquarie Fields may make you feel masculine but wouldn't it be better to find an interest that is not glamourised by the media but is productive, useful and makes you feel better in the long run?
Posted by DavidJS, Friday, 18 March 2005 1:28:37 PM
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bit o history repeating perhaps, afterall men used to wear make-up back in england and france once upon a time, ok granted it was a hygiene thing as well coz they didn't always wash everyday. but very much looks bit of repeating happening.
Posted by kalalli, Friday, 18 March 2005 2:10:37 PM
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Daniel, lots of good points.

Most of us still have a bit to learn about dress sense. I'm quite partial to something to hold the hair in place and some aftershave and deoderant. Quite happy for my hairdresser to trim the eyebrows so I don't get the "Prime Minister" look and run the clippers along the ears etc. Eyeshadow and lippy are a different matter.

I suspect that over time fashion may change enough that the wearing of makeup by men is no more uncommon than the wearing of earrings by men (I have not got inspired to try that myself).

I'm quite happy not to have too much pressure to have to follow the latest trends and fashion myself, not enough money for both good fashion and new power tools and other things where I need to have the latest.

There are a lot of us who tend to think Pru is a bit fond of making comments based on stereotypes of men/fathers rather than on the realities of real life and the diversity in the modern male.

Some of us have always put a lot of effort into supporting our families, being seriously involved in our childrens lives etc.
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 18 March 2005 2:48:36 PM
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The metrosexual male is more than likely a media invention to sell products. This type of scam has been occurring in women’s media for many years, and now attempting to be replicated for men. From the book “Spin Sister” by Myrna Blyth :- “Makeup artists use what they want during a photo shoot, and the editors, long after the picture has been taken, write the credits to please the advertisers”

In effect, the cosmetic industry and the fashion industry have become part of a giant media industry that sells gimmick, fad, and myth to thousands of women. It is more insidious in that it purposely tries to make women feel incomplete, insecure, anxious and “stressful”.

It is ironic that the latest women’s magazine released in Australia called “Madison”, has a recent article titled “Are You Addicted to Stress”
http://www.isubscribe.com.au/title_info.cfm?prodID=13197

This media system is also more insidious in that much of it will attempt to portray “men” as being the cause of all this “stress”. See also 'Spin Sisters' Reveals Phony Feminist Hype of Media Princesses” http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/1/124917.shtml

In regards to the inquiry into parenting arrangements:- the Sex Discrimination Commissioner made the following comments:- "It's easy to say, 'You wanted the children, you're the mother, you breastfed them, you know what you're doing.' You can't do that with your parents. She's not going to wipe your father's bottom." http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Plea-for-debate-on-parenting/2005/02/09/1107890274207.html?oneclick=true

These comments were not only highly crude from a person in a government position, but were an insult to fathers, and also to the elderly. The comments were also not referenced to any reliable research.

A review of the speaches by the Sex Discrimination Commissioner, has shown few positive comments ever made about the male gender, but a considerable amount of unreferenced negative comments. From this it appears that the Sex Discrimination Commissioner is a tax-payer funded male-basher.

A review of the statistics used by the Sex Discrimination Commissioner often shows these statistics to be very suspect also, and it is more than likely that any submission from the HREOC to the enquiry will be based on male-bashing as the basic principle.
Posted by Timkins, Friday, 18 March 2005 2:54:41 PM
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Those "men?" who contemplate using, or are using make-up are just precious little pink petals eh! Not satisfied with ripping women off with their horrible unhealthy gunk called make-up, now they have "men?" in their sights.Well if these "males?" are stupid enough to fall for it - UGH! Regards, numbat
Posted by numbat, Friday, 18 March 2005 4:19:12 PM
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I find that good grooming attracts more women than any slovenly appearance. BO and a pot belly do not a sex god make. And soft hands are very much appreciated - my thanks to Nivea.
Posted by Ringtail, Friday, 18 March 2005 4:58:04 PM
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While I appreciate any writing that pulls the construct of masculinity into the spotlight, this reeks of essentialism.

Quote: "Men and women are different. And those differences need to continue to be defined."

Hmm. Alarms ringing! I disagree that we need to continue to define our socially-imposed differences, and focus instead on our similarities, after all, we're all human
Posted by fem, Friday, 18 March 2005 5:11:38 PM
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It's the consumerism, stupid.
Posted by mscobina, Friday, 18 March 2005 6:26:37 PM
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Timkins, you are probably right that the 'metrosexual' is a media construct with a view to flog more stuff to men. However, what point R U trying to make with your comments that the media is trying to push the view that men are the cause of all female stress? What has this got to do with male grooming? You also talk about male bashing, seems females get bashed about alot too. And your references to parenting? What do you mean? Have you confused which forum you're in? Clearly both sexes are manipulated by the advertising media. Not sure I get U, mate.
Posted by Ambo, Friday, 18 March 2005 6:36:15 PM
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Ambo
Metrosexual male of course means fashion, style, image etc. It is a fashion gimmick, but this gimmick has to be sold through the media. In the past this type of “sell” has been most evident in women’s media, such as women’s magazines which sell more copies than all other types of magazines combined.

However these magazines sell more than fashion, as they also purposely try and make the reader feel insecure, unhappy and stressed. Then the reader has to buy the next copy of the magazine as “comfort food” or they have to have a “make over” by buying the advertised clothes, new hair style, new furnishings, new man, new me etc

All this was exposed by Myrna Blyth, in a book called “Spin Sister:- How the Women of the Media Sell Unhappiness -- and Liberalism -- to the Women of America”
http://www.palmdigitalmedia.com/product/book/excerpt/16417
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/05/1078464632582.html

In most articles there has to be a victim.

“This is what Blyth calls "the victim virus" or the "Perpetual Victim Story". "Women respond to hard news stories in an emotional way," she writes, so quotes are routinely changed or invented and photos altered.”

If investigated, the articles in these magazines will often "point the finger" at men for this imagined or brainwashed victimisation.

-------------
This article mentions Goward (ie“ Pru Goward is alluding to. While she puts it in terms of men doing more housework, what she’s talking about is a greater commitment to supporting women and family.”)

Goward called for an enquiry (and got it) into work, family, parenting http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/fhs/workandfamily/index.htm

However, Goward has made many stereotyped, generalised, maligning remarks about men, husbands, and fathers, and she attempts to make women feel “victimised” by men. She is no better than an article in a woman’s magazine, and she started the enquiry by making the maligning remarks about men and their fathers (bottoms)

If investigated, almost all her maligning remarks about men are not based on research, or if they are, then it is normally “selective” type research where positive aspects of men are overlooked. She knows this, and so does the HREOC
Posted by Timkins, Friday, 18 March 2005 11:38:28 PM
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Timkins – I already agreed w/U that the metrosexual is a media construct – didn’t need the additional diatribe. As for your further comments – which did not address my question – they add nothing to the debate and would appear to be an attempt by U to hijack the topic for your own agenda - that of blaming women for male self esteem. Take it to another forum, mate, or stick to the topic. Cheers
Posted by Ambo, Saturday, 19 March 2005 11:30:32 AM
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I agree that the 'metrosexual' label is a clever marketing ploy designed to expand the cosmetics and fashion markets. Having said that, I'm now an enthusiastic user of a lightly perfumed aftershave balm that is only sold by one of those 'aromatherapy' franchises, since I was given some as a present by my partner.

On the other hand, she asserts that I am at my most seductive when wielding a vacuum cleaner or standing at the kitchen sink...

...much cheaper than expensive cosmetics and certainly more 'productive'!

Morgan ;)
Posted by morganzola, Saturday, 19 March 2005 11:44:13 AM
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Daniel,

I agree that men don't need to go down the mascara road like women. Your feminist colleagues love to remind us about the male ego but when it comes to the female ego, vanity (narcissism?), they're not so forthcoming. We have enough problems - we don't need to adopt feminine ones too.

I also agree with you that the continued blurring of the lines between men and women doesn't help. But you come up with some perplexing ideas on why.

You write "young men [footballers] have taken on dysfunctional roles and don’t know how adult men should behave."

But then you go on to suggest that this is because men haven't done what feminists asked (apparently we've just adopted the "modus operandi" of women)

Do you really think young men are going to learn how to behave like men by asking women? Do women ask men to teach them how to behave like women?

By taking this approach you're suggesting that men and the masculine have no value and can only be validated by feminine approval (as if feminists are somehow a repository of femininity, or even represent most women). This view shows a remarkable lack of self-confidence and is the reason WHY young men are dysfunctional and are confused about their roles.

Is this the sort of "more equal society" you say feminism was looking for?

You need to understand that these views are part of the problem not the solution. You also need to understand that androgynist ideologues like Pru Goward are part of the problem. And you also need to understand that men who write negative articles about men in order to seek some sort 'morally superior' status from the sisterhood are also part of the problem.
Posted by Josh, Saturday, 19 March 2005 12:33:21 PM
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Ambo,
“for your own agenda - that of blaming women for male self esteem”

Really? Is this true is it?

Still can’t understand your questions much, or what you are on about.

This “metrosexual male” stuff is obviously tied up with fashion, image etc. Next week or next year it might be “manly male”, or “hip, hop and happy male”, or “me, me, me male”. Who knows what type of sales gimmick it will be, but these types of sales gimmicks have been done countless times in women’s media and in women’s fashion.

The end result, (as I have tried to give examples of in 350 words):- many women have become addicted to this type of media, that also brainwashes them, makes them very confused about themselves, and eventually makes them very unhappy (and most of this women’s media and fashion is developed by women themselves, and not men)

Hopefully men won’t be sucked into a similar type of whirlpool, that eventually becomes very destructive to them and to others.

And THAT is what I am on about.

Don’t know if your asking question about Pru Goward or not, who was mentioned in the article, but who is no better than many types of women’s media.
Posted by Timkins, Saturday, 19 March 2005 3:17:15 PM
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Why is it that Online Opinion comment posters leap to post comments on any subject vaguely to do with sex, yet almost completely neglect many other articles?
Posted by Penekiko, Saturday, 19 March 2005 5:16:54 PM
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Penekiko, might be that most of us have some first hand knowledge of sex (or would like to have). Not many of us totally disinterested in the topic.
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 19 March 2005 7:28:30 PM
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Gee Daniel, this is why we women wear blush. And you thought you were just writing an article about why it's good to be well groomed! It's not metro, it's not gay, it's not even castrating and giving in to the evil No Idea or Bovver Boots brigade. It's just a nice, lighthearted piece on the niceties SOME guys are actually practicing. Give the guy a break guys!
Posted by Di, Sunday, 20 March 2005 1:19:18 AM
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“Light-hearted”

Oh, I think the article is more than just “light-hearted”. The article is typically another long list of things men have to do, with not the slightest mention of what women have to do.

Daniel wrote:-
“We must improve our relationships with women and children. We must combine strength and compassion. We need to take the positive aspects about being men and create a new identity for our gender.”

Would Daniel ever write:-
“Women must improve their relationships with men and children. They must combine strength and compassion. They need to take the positive aspects about being women and create a new identity for their gender.”

Meanwhile women have to read countless magazine articles (normally written by a complete non-authority, but made to look like they are advice from an expert), spend hours looking through countless fashion photos and dress shops, do this quiz, do that quiz, or select a new hair shampoo each week in an endeavour to find which one is “truly me”.

But women are in no way under any obligation to change anything, because every problem in society is the result of those pesky “men”. (IE. technique No 8 from the list at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=2940#883

“8. Blame males for as many problems as possible, as this transfers responsibility for those problems onto males, and hides the fact that females may be partly or fully responsible for those problems occurring. Transferring responsibility also relieves females from having to find workable solutions to those problems.”

I think Daniel is either:-
1.totally afraid of saying anything negative regards the female gender
2.totally brainwashed by feminist propaganda
3.an incurable male basher
4.an addict of women’s media
5.an admirer of the highly sexist Sex Discrimination Commissioner
6.all of the above
Posted by Timkins, Sunday, 20 March 2005 12:36:51 PM
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I see that poor old Timmy's having another woman-free weekend.
Posted by morganzola, Sunday, 20 March 2005 1:45:03 PM
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Morganzola, Timkins does seem to have a lot of time on his hands. However I am being very unfair - this could so easily turn into a Timkins bashing exercise. Sometimes he actually does make a point. Men do need some positive roles to which to aspire. Many are excellent fathers; while in hospital recently the best nurse there was male. However, back to the debate.

Should men wear make up? - well its all about choice isn't it? Although it could also be a a part of the evil feminist conspiracy to rid the world of the male sex......
Posted by Ringtail, Sunday, 20 March 2005 4:57:12 PM
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FEM
"Hmm. Alarms ringing! I disagree that we need to continue to define our socially-imposed differences, and focus instead on our similarities, after all, we're all human"


Actually Fem, we are humans of the male and female types. So, why try to dispose of this biological reality ? Socially imposed anything, is a direct result of us living in societies and how our culture emerges in a balanced way. Just one favorite feminist example is that of womens pay rates. This was compensated in the 'old' days by guys paying for outings as a matter of 'culture'. It became less and less workable as social change and the sexual revolution destroyed so much of our heritage. Clearly in the current climate it would be plain unjust.
But the principle behind the differential was culturally balanced at the time, and like most things in culture, it did not cater for 100% of the community. Is today any better ? Equal pay is fine, but how this one thing impacts on other areas is probably less known. Its quite possible that taking away from males the sense of duty and care towards females, strikes at the heart of what we 'are', weakening our self esteem, lowering our threshhold to disease, increased depression etc ? Does this sound like 'mysoginistic woffle' ? check out what happened to an aboriginal tribe when the introduction of a steel axe, had just this effect, and they are now extinct. (Steel Axes for Stone Age Australians- Lauriston Sharp)its pretty much a foundation document for studies in Social/Cultural anthropology)

Perhaps along with equal pay, we needed something ELSE to compensate males for the emotional and psychological loss they suffered as a result of now feeling 'less needed'. Perhaps the feminist movement failed to recognize that if they want equal pay, they should also try to contribute to that which males lost in the process ? That way the balance would have been retained.

As for the article, I agree with Timkins. Purely a marketing strategy to further consumerize us.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 20 March 2005 8:13:23 PM
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Boaz, does equal opportunity for women make you feel like an aboriginal with a steel axe - emasculated? And that women "should also try to contribute to that which males lost in the process". What? Go back to being barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen - that would fix your self esteem? You feel powerless because women feel more in control of their lives?

Well, not all men as so tragic as you 'praise the lord' and can accept women as valid people with as much right to self determination as themselves. You are only revealing your own insecurities - I guess if you are an insecure male feeling in control over 50% of the population must have been a real boost to the old ego. Time to grow up boaz.
Posted by Ringtail, Sunday, 20 March 2005 8:34:28 PM
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MorgonZola, Ringtail,

MorgonZola
Most of your postings have little to do with the topics, but you seem to have very similar characteristics to the author.

You rarely make anything but negative and maligning comment regards the male gender, and your comments are normally highly generalised, without substantiation, and without reference to any reliable research.

Please find me the links to feminist or male bashing text that is any different to these characteristics, and I might start and believe something you say.

Possum,
Your comments regards a male nurse are interesting. I have heard of a university in QLD that eventually was asked to show cause why it’s nursing course should remain accredited. The reason for this :- that course had very little nursing left in it, as most of it was taken up with “Women’s Studies”. It appears that if it was left to feminists, then medical science would become a mixture of biased research, lies, distorted information and Wicca, and we go backwards 500 years.

Looking very objectively at the situation, then I would think that the gender most in need of role models is the female gender. Looking at the media and culture of the female gender, then that gender appears very insecure and confused, as there are enormous numbers of females that appear very dependant upon women’s media such as women’s magazines and women’s TV, to learn about who they are. However women won’t find much truth in their media, as the vast majority of it is hoax or fiction.

But don’t believe me in this, borrow a copy of the book “Spin Sister” by Myrna Blyth (yes, written by a female author so its safe) and read all about it. Then find me a women’s magazine, women’s section in a newspaper, or women’s TV program that is anything different to how it is described in that book, and I will believe that the female gender is not in great need of better role models.

You can also describe why the male gender should begin to copy the female gender.
Posted by Timkins, Sunday, 20 March 2005 9:10:07 PM
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Ringtail...'CHOMP' (u know what that means by now :)

no, u totally misunderstand me. Its YOU who's mind is still in the worst aspects of our cultural heritage, not mine. I'm in that place u already know about. Scripture. I'll grant you one concession, the portrayal of men u describe IS definitely NOT what the scriptural picture is, so on that point u can beat it to death as much as u like, sorry though that it doesn't have much relationship to what I'm on about. So it might be a bit wasted.

It seems that you can ONLY see the "bad" side of any one elses position on this issue, I'm thinking you choose to do so. How many times have I said that a mans role is to 'give himself up for her as Christ gave himself up for the Church'. ! Does that sound like the type of man you describe in your 'straw man' that u continually resurrect just to beat the daylights out of everytime you are facing a glimmer of variance to your possy ?

Ringy I think you have missed a lot of the wistful expression of just what I've been referring to from guys on this forum. Lets be certain of one thing, its NOT about "us verses them". Its NOT about barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen per se. (they can have shoes :) It IS about cultural balance, and gender harmony. It IS about males and females being different, Perhaps these ideas are too lofty for u ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 20 March 2005 9:45:24 PM
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The hilarious thing about the metrosexual exercise is that the gay men I know (including myself) are either complete slobs or fashion nightmares or both. Metrosexuality assumes that gay men out there are these fashion/culinary/interior decorating/culture experts and it would be really good if heterosexual men could just be like us - without giving up their sexuality. It is based on a seemingly flattering but completely wrong headed view of the lives of actual gay men.

Or to put it another way, the "Fab Five" would collectively pass out if they looked at the state of my kitchen floor. As for the pubs I go to, well, let's say they're not exactly the Ritz-Carlton. And my choice of entertainment is an AFL match - not La Traviata (GO THE SWANNIES!).

On a more serious note, "Queer Eye" has succeeded in stereotyping both gay and straight men for the purpose of flogging a lifestyle and products. People like Timkins have made this point and I agree. Wouldn't it be nice to have programs showing real life situations of friendships between actual gay and straight men? Maybe I should take my own advice and get off my bum and do something about that.
Posted by DavidJS, Monday, 21 March 2005 8:16:03 AM
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Go Saints! UR right on Davidjs, media stereotyping is making mugs out of us all. The cosmetics industry is hoping to cash in on male insecurity just as they do women's. Sad for us all. But healthy to talk about it - even if a few just use this forum to bang on about their own agendas. Anyway, must go and have my chest waxed.
Posted by Ambo, Monday, 21 March 2005 8:40:28 AM
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Actually Timmy, if you could see past your obsession for a moment, you'd see that my first post in this thread was directly on topic. It was a light hearted personal anecdote that supported the author's point that women are more likely to appreciate men sharing stereotypically 'female' roles with women, than simply making 'cosmetic' changes in their appearance. It didn't need to be substantiated with references because I wrote it from personal experience.

Further, I think that the practice of deluging these comments forums with repetitive misogynist posts supported by numerous dodgy references, tends to detract somewhat from real debate. That's where my second post in this thread came from: you are clearly obsessed with women, and in a particularly unhealthy way. You need to own your own problems, mate, and stop shifting responsibility for your masculine failings onto 'feminism'. Have you tried professional counselling?

Have a happy day.

Morgan
Posted by morganzola, Monday, 21 March 2005 9:01:11 AM
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Morgon-Zola
You were politely asked to do the following:-

“Please find me the links to feminist or male bashing text that is any different to these characteristics (ie these characteristics were ” highly generalised, without substantiation, and without reference to any reliable research.”)”

You haven’t done this BECAUSE YOU CAN’T, as follow up research into feminist or male bashing text nearly always reveals the previously mentioned characteristics. There have been very few exceptions found.

Meanwhile this type of indoctrination text is being poured into the minds of countless students at universities, and now at some secondary schools within this country also. One of the results of this is a wide scale anti-male and anti-father bias, which then has enormous repercussions throughout society.

The hard facts are:- almost 1 in 3 children will not be living with both natural parents by the time they reach 18. Most of the time these displaced children will be living with their mother, with 76% only seeing their fathers every second weekend or less, and 30 % not seeing their father at all.

Other hard facts are: -Nearly 50% of the mothers in these single female parent families do no work, and another 25% work part time only. Members of these single female parent families normally have the highest rates of poverty, child abuse, poor school performance, STD, drug taking, unwanted pregnancy etc, of any family type.

This is now the greatest social problem within society, but much of this social catastrophe has been previously hidden behind highly biased Social Science research. However more and more facts are now gradually immerging (after 30yrs).

It has been noted for some years that OLO regularly posts feminist or male bashing articles onto its web site, and of course much of the rest of the media does similar. This is only adding to these immense social problems.

Your inability to answer any question, your great ability to make generalised maligning comments, your inability to provide reliable evidence to substantiate anything you say etc, is typically a part of the problem also, and there are many others like you.
Posted by Timkins, Monday, 21 March 2005 2:02:49 PM
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Timkins
"Daniel Donahoo argues that men wearing makeup is not a pretty sight."
Go to a forum that is debating fatherhood.
This forum is about men wearing make up.
Your incessent, relentless rhetoric is ruining this forum for others.
If you can't debate the issue then remain silent.
Now, where did I put my lippy?
Posted by Ambo, Monday, 21 March 2005 2:21:32 PM
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Timkins
If you have an opinion on single parenthood, women, and how they are ruining the universe, write an opinion piece and let us debate it as we are trying to do with Daniels piece.

Please stop trying to hijack other topics, this is really getting very annoying.

I suggest we all stop taking the bait.
Posted by Nita, Monday, 21 March 2005 3:51:43 PM
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“Thank god I’m an atheist” – Dave Allen. ;-)

Boaz - I am sorry you are so blinkered by your bible that you are unable to sustain any debate or original thought without a quote or two from your scriptures.

Men and women have far more in common than they do differences – to focus solely on these differences at the expense of our common humanity is just the same as focussing on the superficial differences between races – we are all human. A Chinese proverb states; ‘women hold up half the sky’. A relationship based upon mutual friendship and respect is far healthier than what you propose via your religion.

Getting back to the issue it is better that women become a little less obsessed about appearance and better that men should look after themselves a little more.

Timtam – given the relevancy of your topics, all I have to say to you is this •
Posted by Ringtail, Monday, 21 March 2005 5:00:37 PM
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None of my posts have ever been removed or modified, and I substantiate most of what I say through references to research and other articles. The vast majority of my postings are in response to generalised maligning remarks made about myself by others, while I have repeatedly asked those people to be more specific. However they repeatedly do not do so, and I guess that is their problem, and a problem for the moderators eventually.

As detailed below, this article is standard male stereotyping, and I think that fathers in particular should have much to say about it, as they can speak for younger males who may not be able to do so. The real state of “men” and “fatherhood” can also be made known, as the reality is quite different to how the author tries to portray it.

Article count:-
Statements made-64
Statements referenced to reliable research-0
Statements using the term “metrosexual male”-2
Definitions of what is a “metrosexual male”-0
Positive statements about men-0
Negative statements about men-26
Positive statements about women/feminism-5
Negative statements about women/feminism-1
Statements extolling men to change in some way-8
Statements extolling women to change in some way-0

Article Summary:-
The author makes many statements, but none are referenced to any reliable research, and are highly likely to be fictitious. The author infers that many Australian men have become “metrosexual” without once defining what this means. There are many negative statements made about men, with no positive statements. The author makes a number of positive statements regards women and feminists, with only one negative statement. The author vaguely refers to some social problems, and states that men must change, while not stating that any changes are necessary for women.

So this article is just another male bashing and male stereotyping article, but such articles can lead to false perceptions in the minds of many people, create social problems, and also divert attention away from much more relevant issues facing males and fathers in society.

I guess Daniel has a lot of moral conscience (not).

For issues much more relevant to males Daniel read http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12605581%255E7583,00.html
Posted by Timkins, Monday, 21 March 2005 9:33:16 PM
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I think you've misunderstood the article, Timkins. I don't see how Daniel is male 'bashing' at all. He is just having a jibe at the pathetic way companies, through marketing, are trying to reconstruct the male identity. The social concerns you mention, are the direct result of big companies crushing people's self esteem, then offering products that will make them 'feel better'.

Anyway, metrosexual is just another word for prettyboy.
Posted by davo, Monday, 21 March 2005 10:06:11 PM
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Wow, I agree with everything Davo says. Companies sell products by making people feel dissatisfied with their lives. Women's magazines and corporations like Maybelline have this down to a fine art. Now to find some extra dollars the men are being targetted.

Now, there are many things in life we can't control. However, if we all worked on our self-esteem by not giving a toss what others think, this metrosexual crap would die a quick death.
Posted by DavidJS, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 8:46:04 AM
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Davo,
Of course the article was only a “joke”, as nearly all articles that stereotype and malign the male gender are disguised as jokes.

How many “metrosexual males” have you actually met? Hardly any, or none at all?. Is this surprising?.

Within the article:-
Positive statements about men-0
Negative statements about men-26
Positive statements about women/feminism-5
Negative statements about women/feminism-1

You can do the counts yourself, but in amongst all the maligning and negative comments about men (ie the word “men” was mainly used by Daniel, rarely “metrosexual males”), Daniell was quite admiring of women and feminists. Similar has been repeated 1,000’s of times elsewhere.

No 17 on the list at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=2940#883

“17. Oppose any stereotyping or vilification of the female gender, then attempt to stereotype and vilify the male gender as much as possible. If a male questions this hypocrisy, then state that any stereotyping or vilification was only a joke, and feminism is actually altruistic, and plays an important part in the democratic process.”

Someone doesn’t have to be female to be using the techniques on that list, and some people have also learnt that they can earn considerable income from carrying out male stereotyping or portraying the male gender negatively. It’s become an industry for some. see.. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/09/03/1062548898574.html )

Now if you are in complete agreement with this, then you can be in complete agreement with every media article, advertisement, sit-com TV program etc that routinely portrays the male gender as being buffoon-like, lacking, or incompetent in some way, while highly relevant issues that can very seriously affect almost any male at any time are continuously swept under the carpet and ignored.

Even Tony Abbott personally learnt about some of these issues recently, but he is just 1 in 1,000’s of other males…. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12621014%255E601,00.html
Posted by Timkins, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 2:49:21 PM
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Timkins, I think you might be being too hard on Daniel. Whilst we may not agree with some of his perspectives much of what he says has some truth behind it, it just lacks balance.

Men do need to find ways of improving relationships and getting past some of the stuff which is hurting so many at the moment. What is sad is that Daniel does not appear to take the effort to say or fails to understand that this cuts both ways. Our society is changing and traditional roles and images don't fit well anymore for anybody.

I think that it is more helpful to engage in dialog. Maybe Daniel does not understand that one of the issues a lot of men struggle with is not knowing what women want of us (or the demands being really unreasonable). Maybe he was fortunate enough to partner with someone who loves him for who he is and does not constantly demand change to fit an image that is not him.

Mens Image
We have a start on glossy magazines which do a fairly good job of eroding male self confidence. How many of us in our 40's feel confident about our bodies when we look at the washboard stomachs on the front of "Mens Health". There is useful material in the magazine for overall health but the models used are not realistic for most of us. Sleeping poorly one night last week I turned on early morning TV and watched a promo for a stomach exerciser, plenty of washboard stomachs there which I doubt came from use of the machine being advertised (yep and plenty to help women feel unattractive unless they get a perfect stomach as well).
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 3:50:35 PM
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RObert
I would be careful about following the exercises in any popular magazine, or using the exercise equipment being advertised on TV. I was once shown a health magazine by a physio who had previously analysed the exercises in that magazine and had crossed about 90%, as most exercises usually gave no back support, or could unduly stress different areas of the body.

A dietician would do the same if someone took along a series of diets that were being advertised in popular magazines.

In the case of Daniel, he has had two articles on men, but if they are analysed, he made 28 negative statements about men in the first, (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3117#3970) and 26 in the second (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3256#4603)

A total of 54 negative statements, with “not one” positive statement made about men at all, which means that he is most likely a total non-authority on people in general, and any advice he provides is just pop psychology.

If someone has a problem with their identity, they should go see a specialist, but don’t listen to the likes of male maligning pop psychologists, as they can create much harm throughout society, and create much harm for the male gender.

Why do you think fathers only get 80/20. I know of no reliable study that has ever shown that 80/20 is nothing but harmful to the children, their fathers, and even the mothers, yet 80/20 is a standard that has been applied to many 100,000’s of children and their fathers for decades. There is no human rights, scientific, or health reason why it is applied, and it is more than likely applied because of antiquated, highly gender biased and false perceptions about men and fathers that are so often disseminated

Also what is the thing women want most from men?

If you look through all the research carried out in this, you will find “money” the most common factor, (and women’s media is of course not helping at all). Trace through all the relevant research and see for yourself, but of course it’s men that have to change their attitudes.
Posted by Timkins, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 9:41:06 PM
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Ringtail, ur just lucky you have such a cute animal as ur nick, or I'd make road kill outa ya :)
U still don't get it do ya ?... 'women hold up half the sky' ? err meaning ? actually if the sky had mass it would be impossible, because women are physically weaker than men.
My point, is about 'compelmentary' relationships not competitive. I'm saying that a footy team with everyone playing full back won't score many goals... right ?

I would have thought that by now you realized that withOUT reference to something of an abiding nature re morality and life guidance, there is not much out there apart from what u can think up. You seem to want to attack me as being 'blinkered' when you urself are blind, (to that reality) so, its quite deliberate that I refer to something bigger than "us".
We are just pooling our 'original' ignorance otherwise. (some might call it enlightenment I spose). But u know the drill, 10 people, 10 opinions
So, having now carved you up, I should refer to the article.
I just agree, that the whole thrust of such trends is to create and promote a market. So, my response is to approach it (and our fellow commentors) with a perspective of ultimate truth, and trustworthy guidance. Bit in principle, men with make up ? c'mon... gee.. its rather wasteful and pandering to vanity I think.

My mind immediately goes to think of how our social mentality can even comtemplate such an idea, when most people in the world are interested in their next meal, or how to protect their interests from 'greedy consumerized westerners'. How arrogant is it of us to think about 'makeup' for men ! How empty, how irresponsible. Come to think of it, some of the most beautiful girls I've known didn't need make up or even use it, so 'ner' as they say :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 22 March 2005 10:07:45 PM
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In my eagerness to send my latest riposte to Boaz I placed this in the wrong forum, humble apologies to any confused debaters:-)

Boaz baby, 'carved me up?' In your dreams. For someone who has their head buried in a bible you sure have trouble with a metaphor - 'women hold up half the sky'. You're the one who sees this as a competition. My view is that men and women (and couples in general) are halves of a partnership based on friendship and respect. However, any chance you get, B D, you just love to have a go at me. But that's OK I love the sport.

The irony here is that overall we agree that the metrosexual is a media construct.

Ciao
Posted by Ringtail, Wednesday, 23 March 2005 5:05:53 PM
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I'm just a teenager, but i find some men with make-up attractive.
Posted by x0x_kristen_x0x, Thursday, 31 March 2005 10:40:53 PM
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Ringtail, my 'carved you up' .. was a QUESTION... u claimed I said that, but I couldn't find it in my posts, I said I only remember 'roadkill' and I'm TRYing to be a bit light hearted here.. gimme a break will ya and please LOOK for the smileys...

I don't think complementing you on your most impressive approach to handling the pressures of family, work and personal fulfillment could be construed as 'having a go at you' ? can it ?

For someone who is probably WAY more fulfilled than those poor women who are enduring a crush morning and night to be be at the 'office' while they are stressing out about their babies in child care I don't know why u have a go at ME all the time ? err.. I've not said women can't have equal access to most jobs, but female biology dictates (NOT ME) that some occupations are not appropriate.

My problem is with women trying to be men, there are differences u know. Have u not seen Policewomen being pushed aside by male protesters ? I sure have. If the history of my country depended on a battle involving hand to hand combat, only a lunatic would put women on the front line.

Do u 'get' it yet ? man..I'm slipping.. no bible verses yet. Hmmm.. maybe its just common sense talking here than my 'bigotry' :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 1 April 2005 5:06:05 AM
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Boaz, I am aware that you write passionately about your beliefs - and so do I.

Check your post above dated Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:07:45 PM, where you claimed to have carved me up. I find it interesting how often you use such physical terms in your responses to my posts but I don't see that in your responses to others.

I have noticed also that when you have been brought to task about the strident vehemence of your posts by others you frequently back down and claim "joke". Nothing wrong with humour - I use it myself from time to time. However I think you doth protest too much when confronted with some of your more extreme comments.

Having said that, however, I also believe you genuinely care about others - you sound alot more mentally balanced than say Timkins or Ozaware (whose website I have checked and found to be the epitomy of 'verbal bludgeoning' Ozaware may not be religious but he appears to be some kind of zealot).

Well this is nothing about males in mascara - just using this forum to talk to you. So I will justify this post by saying that in my youthful years I found many a made up rock star eg Robert Smith from the Cure or Iggy Pop as very attractive indeed. However men in rock 'n roll are a complete other culture and Daniel's article was referring to the average bloke.
Posted by Ringtail, Friday, 1 April 2005 7:05:36 AM
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Hey Kristen,

I'm interested in your point of view. OFten these things are fashions. Egyptian pharaohs wore make-up, as did European Restoration dandies. Captain Cook probably wore make-up occasionally, and if not he, surely Joseph Banks did. When you say you find some men in makeup attractive, can you give us any examples that we would know? Are they making some sort of a statement about who they are, their sexuality, or is it a fashion statement?
Posted by GrahamY, Friday, 1 April 2005 7:16:51 AM
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I think the metrosexual isn't even a general media construction, I think it was invented in this forum by the collective will of posters. For the record, metrosexuals do not exist, they are just a figment of your collective imagination.
Posted by Penekiko, Friday, 1 April 2005 8:25:31 AM
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What a clash of the egos!
Posted by TrueBlue, Friday, 1 April 2005 10:54:05 PM
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Ringy, ur right, I did 'carve' you up :) 'your argument' thanx....
its becos of your nick. Ur a possum. I'm trying to contextualize my comments in a way which relates to your 'image'. If u notice, I never comment that way with non feral nicks :) Purely a communications device. I'll try to be more peaceful and animal friendly from now on.

To the topic, the idea of men in makeup ? well, having just slashed my way through a very overgrown patch of grass around our fruit trees, and sweated like a pig, all in the name of keeping in control of my environment, the idea of 'makeup' ? just .. err.. I'm speechless.

Even that we are DISCUSSING this topic is a sign of the deep social sickness that is pervading our culture. Just to the north of us, people are scrounging through debris looking for fathers, mothers and children, and WE are here discussing if 'men should wear makup' I think the whole concept is reminiscent of the uncaring french aristocracy which was so out of tune with the realities on the street and in the field that it just did not see people in desparate need for food ! Its bizzare, surreal and has a tinge of 'that which preceeds collapse' about it.
So, again, my only contribution to this topic is that of serious rebuke !

To quote Ringtail's comment about the author of the Media bias article "get a life".

Oops.. almost forgot to include the obligatory 'bible verse' so that my image as a 'bigoted bible basher' is not tarnished.
1 Peter 3.3

3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewellery and fine clothes.

4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 2 April 2005 10:35:07 AM
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Inner beauty always shines thru. However, nothing wrong with a bit of good grooming either - means that you care about yourself.

Yes, there are a lot more important issues than this - topic has run dry.

Cheers
Posted by Ringtail, Saturday, 2 April 2005 11:53:56 AM
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Look, I'm "swinging both ways as they say"...

I'm not a metrosexual as some call it, but when drunk a male friend of mine insisted trying "Smoothing and Mattifying" gel from King of Shaves I had to think about it.

I was a very uncomfortable, but having learnt its good to step out of your comfort zone occasionally I decided to try it.

Well, we got to the party and several ladies commented on my skin. A couple of female friends asked what I had done to myself. A gay friend told me I was looking very healthy and "... hot..."

Now I trust these people to notice a subtle difference in me for the better.

The way I look at it competition in the gene pool gets tougher all the time. Anything to give me an advantage is a good thing!

Check out www.manscape.com.au and you can buy it online!
Posted by KiteBoarder, Monday, 6 June 2005 12:58:33 PM
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Hi what is wrong with a guy wearing makeup. I do and it gives my skin a smoother look and I work for a well known cosmetic house and it also helps sell the product. The women do like being served very often by a man Ialso would never dream of going out without makeup on.

Regards to all

prettyboy
Posted by prettyboy, Sunday, 15 January 2006 7:53:52 PM
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Hi.

I must say that a guy should look after his skin in these harsh environment. I run my own website (www.artofman.com.au)dedicated to men skincare and grooming, and I see a trend that men starts to look after themselves. Thanks to previous message. I think some men take cosmetics like Make-up, but cosmetics are also a moisturiser and cleanser, which is very helpful for the skin. I run my website, but it is not just a shop. I ahve aa lot of useful information in there and a few Gentlemen guides. The site is new, but i have got very good response for it.

Thanks
Kent34
Posted by Kent34, Thursday, 2 March 2006 10:59:44 PM
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Well after rubbishing any type of make-up for real hetro-males, I have a confession to make. I have been using moisturiser lately. I have and continue to have many skin cancers. We have found a product which causes these cancers to disappear - it's called "Cansema" even my medical doctor is somewhat amazed at its results. But wouldn't you know it in their purge against all natural remedies - perhaps at the behest of the big, powerful pharmaceutical companies - the TGA have banned its use for humans. The seller can only advertise it for animals now, strange this salve works for animals but not for humans. Anyhow my skin is a bit of a mess so my better-half insisted that I use moisturiser before going to sleep. I was somewhat amazed that my knickers did not automatically grow a lace fringe around the legs. More amazed that I didn't suddenly become a pansy. So you blokes out there it's alright to use some make-up. From a 70+ year old - numbat
Posted by numbat, Friday, 3 March 2006 10:14:35 AM
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