Kenny.. 'in ur dreams' :)
where is that email addy huh ? c'mon.. confront the issues as they REALLY are rather than in the dark recesses of your mind. Let me shed some light by showing you a pic of a former slave owner with 2 of her slaves .. just a week old mate.. err your not afraid of it are u ?

Just to underline that point I made for Sells. The "Christian in Democracy" has as much right as any other party to influence the texture of the community. It so happens.. 'we live here too'.
The kingdom of God is an unstoppable force, 'resistance is futile' :)
Mainly because it comes from God Himself, as Sells said, the yeast, effects the whole loaf, the smallest seed can become the largest tree.
The kingdom of God is NOT the kingdom of man. When God rules in our hearts, THAT is the kingdom of God.

Kenny, your jibe about it getting smaller.. man.. the early missionaries to China buried more of their own children than they could count in converts, even after a lifetime of work, but look at the church in China today (the real one I mean, not a 'structure') its counted in tens of millions me boy. It consists of people of various traditions, who know and love the Lord as Savior.

If the traditional 'structured' church fades and dies, it might be a good thing, so the believers who are true can be seen apart from any cultural icons. We are everywhere, we meet in homes, in hired halls, in the coffee shop, in rallies, in newer chapels but no matter where we meet, we always have a vote :)

Boaz_david, this sounds like old ground and probably is but I think that it is quite relevant to this thread and the original article.

In a recent message on this thread you posted the following
>> The kingdom of God is an unstoppable force, 'resistance is futile' :)
>> Mainly because it comes from God Himself, as Sells said, the
>> yeast, effects the whole loaf, the smallest seed can become the
>> largest tree.
>> The kingdom of God is NOT the kingdom of man. When God rules in our hearts, THAT is the kingdom of God.

and on a previous thread

>> "The" church, is that body of believers "within" the identifiable 'Church'
>> (the organized expression of it) There are many traditions, Anglican,
>> Methodist/Uniting, Catholic etc Jesus did not establish any one tradition,
>> he established the 'rule' of God (Kingdom) in the hearts of people. It is
>> not a cout de tat of our free will, this is where you are stumbling.
>> You are projecting a 'corportate' view of the kingdom of God into the Church,
>> and that is a square peg in a round hole, it just cannot be done.

It looks to me that when you get excited about the rise of christian political parties and their growing influence on the government that you are projecting a corporate view of the kingdom of God onto such parties. You argue stridently that God should not be held accountable for actions taken in his name and that individuals will continue to act as individuals and not necessarily follow the will of God but at the same time appear to consider the rise of a christian party as a manifestation of the will of God.

What stops the individuals involved in christian political parties acting of their own free will rather than as instruments of the will of God? There is some history for that kind of occurance strang though it might seem.

Separation of Church and State? Correct.

Seperation of Christians and State? I don't see how that can be proposed in a democratic system of government over an autocratic system, that is, a system where the people rule over where and individual rules or a small group of men rule.

If Christians have a right to vote, as I understand they do in a democratic system such as the one under which we're blessed to live, then it is only to be expected for Christians who realise their responsibility to be the Salt and Light of the world around them to conduct themselves in such a manner and to vote accordingly. To expect them to act otherwise is strange and just plain bizzare. It is, in essense, to expect them to bow to Ceaser before God.

Those who disagree with Christians regarding their worldview are entirely entitled to their opinion. They are not entitled, however, to deny Christians the prerogative to exercise their worldview through the ballot box. Democracy allows this of them.

Dave Allen died yesterday.He made us laugh at our stupid insecurities.He was deeply religious because he understood our common humanity more than any pontificating power hungry clergy.If there is a god,he will be closer than any saint.May his courage in facing reality enlighten us all.

Brazuca .. well said.

ARJAY any 'power hungry' clergyman is not walking with Jesus, full stop.

"so he (Jesus) got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”

7Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”

8“No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.”

Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

From John 13

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Hey wait a minute, the "Church" is supposed to have CHANGED all the bible to 'suit its purposes' hmmm but its purpose to 'gain power and control' ?... er.. gee, looks like they forgot this bit about humble service. Better get on the phone to the Vatican and let them know.
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The 'user manual' is often quite helpful in trying to understand what is 'Christian' :)

In looking over the above posts....

Psalm 53:1a (from the Bible) says:
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

Saying there must be a separation of religion and politics is about the same as saying there must be a separation between politics and women...or politics and homosexuals...or politics and the Labour Party.