Spot on, Andrew. I have been on DSP for over a year now after a long battle with depression. Depression is one mental illness that has been previously often ignored, even today many people don't accept it & say that a person with depression is "putting it on" a notion that to me is offensive in the extreme.

As to discrimination, it was also a factor precipitating my downfall as I endured almost consistent discrimination in the labor market as a transexual. Otherwise, I am caucasian and described by some as intelligent, strong-willed and articulate [though some of certain moral bent substitute the latter two for having trouble with authority or non-conformist behavior].

Employers have got to change. Otherwise any changes made by Government will count for nought. As to the notion of the government's proposals being 'reforms' I reject this as 'reforms' are generally intended by definition to bring about improvements through change. I refer to the proposals as 'proposed changes'.

Informative article! The govt. has allowed the innuendo about DSP recipients to continue for too long in the media without providing us with some statistical info.
A good breakdown of the reasons for the increases in DSP in the last 10 years.
I'm sure there have been some rorters. There are always a few that slip through the net, just as there are inside traders and white collar tax evaders that never get caught. But prosecuting the majority of honest recipients to stop a few by trying to make the pension too painful to put up with to encourage them to work?
Doesn't seem right, making the lives of genuine sufferers who already struggle financially and physically/mentally more stressful.
Hopefully the govt. listens to 75% of us!

You've got to be kidding.Mandouh Habib was on a disability pension in Aust. before his incarseration by the yanks because he was feeling stressed?He had more reason to feel stressed after they had finished with him.He was touring Afganistan and other countries on DSP whilst supporting a family.There are 650,000 on DSP.One in six Australians of working age are now being supported by the tax payer.

I know people in wheel chairs and mental diabilities who hold down full time jobs,and are punished by the system that feely supports bludgers.I've been there,the best thing for a lot of mental disorders is a good dose of survival and family support.People just need a purpose in life.Survival is the best remedy.

I won't let this whimpish leftist mentality get away with such bullshit,that only serves their own indolence and victim mentality.

Arjay - I worked and paid tax for 40 years, my 3 children in their 30's have always been fully employed taxpayers. I live alone and for past 4 years I have existed on DSP $500 per fortnight because of arthritis. do you have a parent with arthritis?

Brownie ,I'm angry at those who've never tried or worked in their lives.Not those who who are genuinely disabled.How many bludgers have you unknowingly supported throughout your life?The point is ,that if we don't get the balance right now,the next able generation will end up in poverty and the genuinely disabled will have to beg in the streets as they do in 3rd world countries.
Paul Keating called it,"A Monkey's Delight" or was it,ah yes "Banana Rebublic"?

Well Arjay, I've supported quite a few bludgers in my time. The National Party first springs to mind. The private health insurance industry came second for no particular reason. And the British Royal Family makes up the trifecta.

David, they are a pimple on a camel's bum compared to the billions wasted in social security.We are looking down the barrel of real poverty in the next 10 -15 yrs if we don't get more people in work.Just start taxing people like the present Carr Govt and people will move overseas with their wealth as in the pre-Thatcher days in England.

The left seem to have this fixation on taxing the incentive to work out of our economy.Do you get it?Everyone lives in poverty then!The left only exits because of the strength of the right.I'm beginning to think the left are a few neural connectors short of a brain cell.
The capitalist/free market system is far from perfect but the alternative of a "centralist nanny state" is too awful to contemplate.The USSR have been there and rejected it.The US is not the "Evil Empire".There is never a black or white solution,just the grey areas of evolution that must change with environment.

But Arjay, the Howard Government has been in power since 1996 and responsibility for the social security "blow-out" must rest with them. "The left" (whoever they might be) are not in a position to determine social security policy or legislation. It is the rules as implemented by Kay Patterson's Department of Family and Community Services that stipulate who'll get Newstart, who'll get DSP etc. And unemployment is at a record low point.

Why the hysteria over the social security bill? I'll tell you why. The aim is to blame DSP recipients by calling them "bludgers" (yeah, that really helps) and conveniently ignoring the attitude of employers. Many people on benefits do want to work but employers won't take them on because they are not young or don't make the workplace look good or any other superficial reason. And employment agencies don't like to take on people with disabilities because it's hard to get them into work for those very reasons.

And while were discussing the social security budget you might like to know that the Howard Government is about to make it more expensive. They are introducing concession allowances of $200 per annum for singles or $400 for couples for holders of the Commonwealth Seniors Health Card. That is, retirees on up to $80,000 a year.

David,yes the appeal of the socialist goliath has a lot a momentum and attracts many votes.The Howard govt. was able to spend more because the got the economy functioning again.How many times have the left blocked their legislation in the senate?Politicians to a large extent react to our expectations.When so many are dependant upon social security dummy,it will take almost the same amount of time to change,some 33yrs since Gough in 1972 instigated our demise.
You can't just pull people of social security in a few years.They don't have the motivation or the job skills.
I think it will take an economic disaster before real change happens.
Jeff Kennett fixed Victoria,but they are now going the way of NSW.

There's more than the national party & private health insurance industry. What about our military's unnecessary expeditions to Iraq & Afghanistan?? What about the 8~9 figure blow-out in the collins-class-submarine construction debacle? Last time I checked, handouts to middle & upper class property investors through negative gearing deductions and concessions on capital gains tax cost us over a billion dollars.

It seems that its alright to get money from the govvie if you're one of their big mates, or a member of a noisy, well-resourced and organized group. No-one says that those are bludgers. Yet, somehow, aid for our poorest rates the opposite?

What is our society coming to?

The Collins Class Subs were the the brainchild of one Kim Beasley. He decided to re-invent the wheel.It cost us 5 Billion dollars.

I would love to hear you say what you wrote here in the workplace.

"I'm beginning to think the left are a few neural connectors short of a brain cell."

I have chronic schizophrenia, a comment like this in the workplace would land you in court on a discrimination charge you right wing troll.

Bring it on!

How many times has "the left" blocked legislation? If you mean the "unrepresentative swill" as Paul Keating memorably called the Senate (I wonder what Labor Senators thought of this), very rarely. Most legislation coming from the House gets passed by the Senate. I believe over 90 per cent of it.

It's amazing how Howard and his supporters want to blame everyone else but themselves for bad policy - including Whitlam who was Prime Minister for only 3 years 30 years ago!!!

Who are you going to blame after July when Howard controls the Senate? "The Left"? This Left must be bloody powerful.

As for insults about "bludgers" I'd love to see you refer to unemployed people using that term to their faces. You wouldn't have a face for very long.

To Arjay et al re Social Service Blowout: Their admin costs are frightening. My last employment was at Centrelink so I know of which I speak. The blowout includes the cost of every regional manager flying to Canberra monthly, the cost of heating (the Ballarat Call Centre) to tropical level so that employees wear summer clothing right through winter, the huge cost of engaging bigtime city agencies to handle employments, and I could go on and on and bore you. My point is that when you read social services cost 80 billion, in actual fact the recipients cost half that.

The DSP is more than just a payment that I just survive on, the DSP allows me to avoid the sick culture that made me sick in the first place. It seems the Howard government has no concept of how some of us view Australian cultural norms. For example, I could in no way spend anytime next to a person with the views of Arjay. I would become very distressed very quickly (and so would you by the way Arjay). I maintain my equanimity through insularity. I do not fear work, I fear forced participation/contact/dialogue with middle moronic true blue aussies.

My point is, who will be accountable for people that suffer relapse because of this forced "mutual obligation" participation? Will I be able to litigate against Centrelink staff that wrongfully assessed my working capacity and ignored my (episodal) level of disability?

I see myself back in hospital within the first month of this proposed mutual obligation policy for people with servere psych disabilities.

Pill, you will only get better if you are determined to overcome your fears.It will be a long hard road, but you can be free.The effort will be well worth the risk.Speak to positive people and ignore your detractors..

Arjay, you have no idea. Bring your bullshit scheme on, I will have a relapse and I will litigate against whoever is responsible.

Pill,I suggest you move away from our "sick culture" as you seem to be delusional.Bali is a great place.Food , accommodation and drugs are cheaper than chips.You need to get away.

We can't have the so-called 'reforms' without changes in employer attitudes. Otherwise, for those like me, there will be few genuine prospects out there. I should know, I spend most of my youth looking for a variety of jobs.

Arjay, [content deleted for flaming].

From what I have read, employers are not happy with the prospect of having to employ disabled workers. Expecting employers to be able to change worlplace cultures, norms and attitudes is ridiculous. Let alone all the modifications to the workplace to accommidate workers impairments and needs so they can actually do the job. I say get to know all the workplace legislative requirements backwards and use them on every issue, it's a great way to fight back. The more people that use the Equal Opportunity Act and the Disability Discrimination Act the better. We must ensure that everyone feels and shares the pain of this backwards policy. A constant stream of complaints and lawsuits against employers will soon take the sting out of mutual obligation.

We all know the Howard Government just wishes to give the top end of town tax breaks and couldn't give a toss how much suffering they cause to our nations disabled. We must fight back and we do have the tools to do it!

But Pill you can live like a king in Bali on a DSP.Mamdouh Habib toured Pakistan and Afghanistan looking for a private school on DSP.

In 1965 there were only 3% of the working pop. on DSP.Today 16% of the working pop is on DSP.This is over a 500% increase.It is just too easy to get on.The reality is that unless something is done the economy will collapse and the genuinely disabled will be left to beg in the streets like other 3rd world countries.
This is all about individuals being more responsible for their own actions and survival.John Howard is doing you a favour.There is nothing ot fear if you are genuinely disabled.

Maybe Arjay you should read the above article, Ten Myths & Facts about the Disability Support Pension.

Andrew blows your argument away.

Your just a troll out to get your jollies posting crap to get a reaction. I will ignore you from now on.

Arjay claims there was a Disability Support Pension in 1965 and I do not believe there was. Please remind me what was it's name and who was eligible to receive it? I do recall 1966 vividly: Unemployed persons were able to received $4.50 per week for 12 weeks only.

The Invalid Pension commenced in 1910. To be eligible your level of incapacitation had to be permanently greater than 85%. This changed in 1991 to the DSP, to receive a DSP you need an incapacitation of 20% and not be able to work for more than 30 hours per week. I’m not sure what the $ rate of the IP was in 1965.

Pill ,the Govt needs to more flexible with genuine cases who are working a few hrs a week.Many don't have the motivation do do so because they get punished for trying.The DSP has just become a repository for the long term unemployed.The pool of money then becomes less for the disabled.The Europeans have been warned about their version of DSP in terms of looming economic failure.An economy is not a bottomless pit.People will just sell up and move elsewhere.Some one has to do the mundane chores of putting food on your table ,provide your shelter etc.You may not realise it ,but"The Nanny State"will destroy us all.

"We are not in the least afraid of ruins. We are going to inherit the earth. There is not the slightest doubt about that. The bourgeoisie might blast and ruin its own world before it leaves the stage of history. We carry a new world, here in our hearts. That world is growing this minute."
Bonaventura Durutti

The current system isn’t working- stress and overwork affect more and more people while others are flung on the dole; we live in a world of plentiful resources yet millions starve; some people make vast fortunes just because they own companies, land, property or natural resources, but those of us who create the wealth, work the land and build the properties are left struggling to pay for the natural resources; politicians tell us there’s no money- not for wages, benefits or local amenities, but there’s always plenty for war; both locally and globally the gap between the richest and the poorest sections of society has never been so great and for all humanities technological advances we spend more time working than people did 40 years ago; instead of a war on poverty they’ve got a war on ‘benefit fraud’, a war on drugs and a ‘war on terror’ and the same institutions that create war, poverty and environmental destruction stigmatise, imprison and deport the resultant refugees.

I don’t think these things are inevitable or coincidental, I think they are related to capitalism- an economic system defined by wage slavery and the accumulation of profit out of other people’s work. So we should support all workers against their bosses in demanding higher wages and better conditions. We try to intervene practically to support workers engaged in disputes and are also active in our own workplaces and communities.

But it’s not just a question of trying to struggle by in a world of exploitation and oppression; we look to a future where workers control production and society in their own interests.

It's amazing some lowlifes wish to blame the disabled for things out of their control to increase profits for the rich!

EAT YOUR TURKEY
GLUT YOU WINE
YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED
YOU BOURGEOIS SWINE

Bring it on!

Pill,go and live in North Korea for a while or can't you extricate yourself from the nipple of capitalist's abundance.Go and experience the alternative and then I will listen to your bilious,ill informed diatribe.
We live in a very socialist state and sure the capitalist's system is far from perfect,the trouble is that like a spoilt child , you don't realise how hard your parents are working to feed you.I'm doing things for you that I refuse to do for my own children.My son said recently that he will go on the dole when he leaves school.Well I said that I will go to social security and tell them to refuse your payments.Yes you are right ,it is a "sick society" that allows it's citizens to waste away on social security benefits.

[Deleted for flaming] Read the facts about DSP in Mr McCallums article above, it's what this forum is about. Then REALISE 75% of the population do not agree with your views. Your out of touch just like the pack of lying rodents in Canberra.

We live in a "socialist state"? After nearly 9 years of a Howard Government? I had no idea we were being run by socialists. Really, the longer Howard and his supporters blame bad economic and social policy on everyone else but themselves, the more ridiculous it gets as years go by. It's as silly as the North Korean regime blaming their woes on Japanese occupation.

Howard etc happily take the credit for economic growth in this country but apparently when things go wrong such as a social security budget blow out it's someone elses fault. That's why some of us never believe what the government says. We've been burnt too many times.

Btw, NSW overall is going fine economically. Egan has produced mostly surpluses during his time as treasurer. And if anyone accuses Egan of being a socialist, they should undergo 3 years at least of closely supervised political education.

Pill,McCallums article uses statistics to colour the world as he wants you to see it.There are 650,000 on DSP,250,000 single parents , 540,000 on the dole, one in six adults of working age is supported by the tax payer.There are poor people in private enterprise working long hours,paying taxes,wanting to spend more time with their families ,and wondering if it is all worth it.
Not if,but when the system collapses,those who are disabled will beg in the streets.The rorters are taking money from those who are genuinely disabled.

Well David JS,the Howard Govt have spent more on Social Security than labor could have imagined their wildest dreams,simply because of lower interest rates and the GST which Labor opposed.The NSW Govt did not until recently go into debt because they did not spend any money on infrastructure.Hey presto, we went into infrastructure debt instead.
What did the NSW Govt.do with all the money?They grew the bureauracy and wasted it on advertising to tell us how good they were,consultants to find out what they already knew,and their own inefficient bull dust.I think also they spent money on the olympics that did not show up in the official olympic expenditure.

re Arjay's statistic of the 250,000 single parents receiving benefits: damn good thing there were allegedly 100,000 terminations every year for the past 5 years or that statistic would read '750,000 single abandoned women receiving benefits'.

Brownie ,mount a decent arguement instead of a one line irrelevant snipe.You disappointment me.

NOT ARGUING WITH:Arjay, Monday, February 21, 2005 11:43:33 PM POST,
merely commenting on the statistic of 250,000.
I agree with Andre McCallum's initial argument that recipients of DSP do not need any more hurdles to jump thanks Centrelink, BUT I do think that there IS plenty of SUPPORT for DSPs to FIND work, there just is not sufficient (part time, non-physical) work to be found.

As a person currently applying for the DSP, I'm fascinated by some of the opinions expressed here.

The DSP aplication process is more invasive, and required me to fill out more duplicated paperwork, than either the 'Newstart' or 'Austudy' payments. The questions that were *not* asked raise some interesting questions about the assumptions made by Centrelink about who applies for the DSP and why.

The process is not easy, and is heavily weighted towards *denying* rather than approving applications. And I can expect it to take take months.

My purpose? To get some *assistance* from Centrelink: access to services to assist me in the workplace - assistance currently denied to me for being 'on the *wrong* payment' ...

to RJ - I was not looking for your approval.
to maelorin - People With Jobs think that Centrelink justs hands it out to we DSPs, and the PWJs also think it is enough to live on. Nobody would do this from free choice. My application for a disabled parking place says 'only apply if you require mechanical assistance to walk'. Now I am so crippled with arthritis that I could not get in or out of a 4WD, and yet I see people with these vehicles with the permit on their windscreens and I just don't get it. As Malcolm rminded us all Life was not MEANT to be EASY. good luck.

Brownie,sorry I misinterpreted your comment about the 750,00 single mothers as a snide comment about my realist views of our society's foibles.The reality is under our socialists system,the mothers with real genetic ability are having no children,they are also defending the rights of the ferals to be supported by the state and have as many progeny as they wish,totally paid for by the tax payer.Genetically we are going backwards thanks to socialism.Harsh,but I like to face realities.

Oh! how rare for anyone to say sorry about anything these days. RJ you DO have a caring side you have been hiding. The DSP will flare up in the news again when Clink have finished with Habib. I swear to all you commentors with jobs, that there is no excess for overseas travel after I pay rent utilities and buy plain food. I don't smoke or go to movies. My ISP $18 per month is my only luxury and my computer was purchased with the remains from selling my house. This year the usual car rego discount was revoked from us. I anticipate having to beg for a living in the future and am practising my harmonica . . . . .

Brownie ,the genuinely disabled I will back to the hilt.They should be able to maintain part time jobs and collect the full pension as a way of recompense for their hardship.The Govt however has reclassified many long term unemployed and general lay abouts as disabled.This has taken money from the genuinely disabled.If the bludgers get to work there will be more than enough for all.Of the 700,000 on DSP they estimate about half are able to work.

i'm curious about what is meant by 'genuinely disabled'?

i have been trying to get employed for six years now. i'm university educated, but my disability has led to my being excluded from serious consideration, or undervalued when i have convinced someone to give me a go.

having a job is one thing, but having employment that is satisfying is as much a right of a person with a disability as for anyone else. being employed below your capacity (and skill & training level), and paid a fraction of the wage of your peers is just as insulting to me as it would be for mr howard.

the government's estimate of half od dsp recipients being able to work relies on their proposed changes to the benefit's eligibility rules. just because someone *may* 'be able' to work x hours per week doesn't mean they'll get a job, or keep one. setting out to create another cheap labor underclass is great for everyone except the cheap underclass. [who would *want* to work and be treated badly?]

centrelink rules are at least as much to blame for this supposed 'crisis' as anything else. to be excluded from assistance that could see me employed as a professional because of 'classification' rules is insane. to then blame (all) welfare recipients ... well ...